00:00 Joining us is our Chief International Affairs Editor Robert Parsons from Khartoum, Azza
00:05 Ahmed Abdelaziz with the Peace Research Institute Oslo.
00:10 Thank you for speaking with us.
00:15 And from London, we're with Sudanese academic Alam Ahmed, founder of the International Diaspora
00:23 Project.
00:24 Thank you for joining us.
00:26 A pleasure.
00:29 Let me begin with you, sir.
00:33 Did you ever have hope of an end of Ramadan ceasefire, an Eid ceasefire?
00:40 No, I never had any hope because of the situation, the distrust between the two military and
00:48 the Arab forces.
00:49 And also, they didn't take any moral consideration or any care about the civilian of the Sudanese
00:56 people.
00:57 So I didn't have any hope and I predicted it would be not just fragile, but they will
01:02 not commit to any one of them.
01:04 So it's just very ugly situation.
01:07 It's unfair on the Sudanese people.
01:09 Every Ramadan, every Eid, this is the third year in a row they had a very sad Eid.
01:14 And unfortunately, this is a very miserable situation for the Sudanese people.
01:19 In previous years, it was the crackdown on those clamoring for a return to civilian rule.
01:27 This time, it's an argument between military top brass that's got the whole of the country
01:33 pinned down.
01:34 Have you been able to speak to loved ones in the last 24 hours?
01:39 Yes, we did.
01:40 And we have been doing that by all means for the last seven days.
01:45 And the situation is getting worse and worse.
01:49 And I was just describing this yesterday to one of the channels when I called my dad.
01:54 He's in 200 kilometers out of Khartoum in a city called Medani.
01:59 When I called him two days ago, he was very happy to tell me that our sister who lives
02:04 in Khartoum, she joined, she managed to escape with her kids all the way to Medani.
02:10 So you can see how happy he is that he managed to get his daughter out of Khartoum.
02:15 And that the situation with many, many families, everyone is fleeing Khartoum for the last
02:19 two days, either like 200 kilometers or even more, or even just 50 or 60 kilometers out
02:26 of the fighting zone in Khartoum.
02:28 Robert Parsons, where to turn?
02:31 You heard in that report that call by the French foreign ministry spokesperson for an
02:37 immediate ceasefire.
02:38 But where to turn to broker such a deal?
02:41 This is the difficulty because there are several countries which have got interests in Sudan
02:47 and many countries who appreciate just how important it is that this conflict be prevented
02:53 from spreading because of the geopolitical position of Sudan, its importance in the region,
02:58 the fact that it borders seven other countries and the potential for further escalation of
03:03 violence.
03:04 Everybody, in other words, recognizes just how important it is to find some way of preventing
03:09 this conflict from escalating.
03:11 But trying to find a way to bring influence to bear on the two parties that are involved
03:17 in this conflict is the most difficult thing.
03:20 And given the fact, too, that interests sometimes cut across traditional alliances, like, for
03:25 instance, the United States and Egypt have been allied in other respects, but in the
03:30 case of Sudan sometimes seem to have different interests.
03:34 The Egyptian government was very closely allied, for instance, with General Burhan, not particularly
03:39 sympathetic to the democratic movement in Sudan.
03:42 The United States trying to push the democratic agenda.
03:45 So now I think is a moment for the various different groups who are interested in the
03:50 situation in Iran trying to find some sort of common ground to put pressure on the two
03:55 parties.
03:56 But how are you going to go about doing that when they seem so far apart on what they want
04:01 to happen and appear so determined to pursue their own particular interests?
04:08 I don't think anybody is particularly optimistic at the moment that an easy solution is going
04:13 to be found, even if there is a strong attempt to bring outside pressure to bear.
04:17 Alam Ahmed, Hamedi's RSF claims it's open to the idea of a ceasefire.
04:24 What's your reaction to that?
04:27 They can't be trusted.
04:29 And I think I can just tell you the wording from General Burhan last night when he made
04:35 that interview with Al Jazeera.
04:37 He said the rapid support forces have been installing lots of checkpoints within Khartoum,
04:45 terrorizing people, stopping them, searching them, asking them for ID.
04:48 So these are not people you can trust them with any ceasefire.
04:52 We still don't know why this whole war started.
04:56 So it is proven now the military doesn't trust them, although they have been saying repeatedly
05:03 we welcome any initiative of ceasefire.
05:06 You have seen twice it's been failed.
05:09 And I think this is a problem.
05:11 The victims here are the ordinary Sudanese people.
05:15 Now they have been stopped and searched.
05:17 That's why many people are leaving the country.
05:19 But let me just draw the attention of your viewer to another important aspect here.
05:24 The Cuba agreement, which was signed by the transitional government with four military
05:30 groups who then shared power with the government of Khartoum, those also, they have military,
05:38 or if you like, groups which have military apparatus.
05:44 All of them are in Khartoum.
05:47 The agreement of Cuba was that they should be dissolved in the army as well, the same
05:51 like the rapid support forces.
05:54 I'm also drawing attention to these four forces.
05:59 We don't know.
06:00 I hope they will not be drawn into this conflict, because if that happened, I think we will
06:04 have a very, very escalating environment.
06:07 Because right now, it's not a civil war.
06:10 Right now it's a fight between two rival security forces.
06:16 But the big worry, we have to learn lessons from what the rapid support forces have done.
06:21 And to remind ourselves, and they have been doing this for the last six days, we already
06:25 have other four forces in Khartoum.
06:29 They supposed to have been dissolved in the army.
06:32 They are there.
06:33 So we really need to act.
06:34 The international community should act very quickly to control this war, to stop it, and
06:39 to find a solution.
06:40 All right.
06:41 You say international community.
06:43 Picking up on what Robert Parsons said, who in the international community?
06:48 The people who are interested have been very keen on Sudan, including United States, my
06:53 country here, United Kingdom, the United Nations, Saudi Arabia, Emirates, Egypt.
06:58 All these countries have been involved in mediating between the two generals.
07:04 So they need to step up.
07:05 Ethiopia, these countries also have biggest stake in Sudan.
07:08 But as I always been arguing on the last few days, we need to change the dialogue, the
07:14 language with these two military forces.
07:17 It has to change.
07:18 Because now we're talking about people, Sudanese civilian, simply losing their life in their
07:23 homes.
07:24 We cannot just be reminding these two generals they have to stop the war.
07:28 This fighting needs to stop as soon as possible.
07:31 And the United Nations should change the way we, the Sudanese people, really have lost
07:37 hope in the international community, not doing enough for their own safety now.
07:42 So what are you suggesting, that they sanction General Al-Burhan and Mehmeti?
07:49 I suggest they give them a clear, clear, clear statement of warning.
07:55 This is not acceptable.
07:58 This war has to stop immediately.
08:00 And whatever in their capacity to do, they have to do it.
08:03 We have all these countries are heavily involved.
08:06 You just mentioned in your report before I started speaking, two military airplanes from
08:14 Germany went all the way to Khartoum to try to beat their people.
08:18 Even the British government trying to have a number for people to try to evacuate them.
08:22 How are you going to even evacuate, but even to supply the country with medicines, humanitarian
08:30 aid?
08:31 How are you going to do that if the airport is under fire?
08:33 So I think the situation is very serious because now we simply we cannot even supply or send
08:39 any medication, food, anything to this country, Sudan, because the airport is under siege.
08:46 If I could just put a question to you, I absolutely agree with you that it's important.
08:50 In fact, probably the only way that this conflict can be brought under control is by outside
08:55 influence being brought to bear.
08:57 The problem for me, though, is that I can't see what influence these foreign powers have
09:03 at the moment inside Sudan.
09:05 What sanction, in other words, can they bring to bear against either one force or the other,
09:10 which will be sufficient to make them stop doing what they're doing at the moment?
09:15 We the general public and the Sudanese people, many times I have been in discussion with
09:20 many people in Sudan, even with political parties.
09:23 We really don't know what is going behind the scene between these two military forces,
09:27 the military and the Arab forces over the last possibly one and a half year.
09:33 There's so many things happening.
09:34 We hear about a special envoy from the UK is traveling to meet General Burhan.
09:39 The European Union is meeting General Burhan, meeting Hamidi, the United Nations, and so
09:44 on.
09:45 We don't know exactly what is going happening behind the scene.
09:47 And to add more evidence to this, when the UN reporting and briefing to the Security
09:57 Council, Fokker is keep giving briefing to the Security Council, telling them until recently,
10:02 two weeks ago, the situation is very close, or these parties are very close to sign the
10:11 agreement where the civilian will take power, and blah, blah, blah.
10:15 It tends to be that was just a rosy thing.
10:20 In my opinion, it was a misleading assessment by the UN office in Khartoum, giving to the
10:25 United Nations Security Council.
10:27 So there's lots of things behind the scene we don't know.
10:30 But clearly, the European Union, the UK, the US, the UN, they do have influence on these
10:37 two military forces, and they want to exercise it.
10:41 What is it exactly?
10:42 We've been kept in the dark.
10:44 We don't know exactly what is the politics behind the scene.
10:46 But let's say, just for the sake of argument, that they are unable to bring any pressure
10:51 to bear sufficient to stop these two men from pursuing their conflict.
10:56 What then?
10:57 Is Sudan set on the course for civil war?
11:00 Unfortunately, we start to see that.
11:03 We start to see people looting each other.
11:04 We start to see people fleeing the country.
11:06 And we start to see things happening in Darfur, in Niala, in other part of Sudan, which is
11:14 still not that civil war, but it could easily be triggered to be.
11:20 Because don't forget, the rapid support forces started in Western Sudan, in Darfur, and it
11:26 is a militia.
11:27 It used to be scattered on that area.
11:29 It's more of a civilian war tactic they use.
11:33 We don't know.
11:34 We really don't know.
11:35 Because even General Burhan yesterday, in Al Jazeera TV interview, he was referring to
11:40 many checkpoints in Khartoum by the rapid support forces.
11:45 And the problem, because they are within the civilian, is very difficult to eradicate them.
11:50 He has spoken about many weak points.
11:53 Now the army is struggling with, and primarily because of the nature of the conflict, and
12:00 they want to protect the civilian.
12:02 So we really don't want to end up in a civil war.
12:05 The problem is the area around us, in Libya, in Iraq, in Yemen, and all these places, there
12:11 is evidence of civil war as a result of similar incidents like this.
12:17 So I think the Sudanese political parties, they need to raise up their game at this particular
12:22 moment and unite around one call, which can be one single voice to the United Nations,
12:30 to the European Union, to the UK, to America, to the Arab neighboring countries, which is
12:34 that they have to be seen as one unified body.
12:39 At the moment, or what is one of the reasons why we are here now, because the political
12:44 parties who were supposed to have the transition, to support the transition to civilian transition
12:51 government, they were not unified.
12:54 They were in conflict.
12:55 They were fighting each other.
12:57 That's what gave ammunition to the rapid support forces and the military to stay on and on,
13:03 and to treat them regardless of the international, if you like, sanctions.
13:09 And they continue to argue that we, the military, we will go back to our barracks and we will
13:16 give you guys to run the country with the civilian government.
13:19 But you are not a unified front.
13:23 And they start to argue that these people are not trusted.
13:26 We're running the government.
13:27 So we do have our internal affairs, and we have to raise the responsibility as a Sudanese
13:33 be able to take care of our own country.
13:35 Otherwise, the UN or UK or US, whatever it is, they are not going to solve our problems.
13:40 Problem has to be solved from the inside first.
13:43 Alaa Mohamed, many thanks for joining us from London.
13:46 I want to thank as well Robert Parsons for being with us.
