00:00 Well, some aspects of life in ultra-conservative Saudi Arabia do appear to be changing, but
00:05 those who speak out still face the risk of severe punishment, and it includes activists
00:10 who challenge the system.
00:12 Well, a recent example of this was that of Manahel Al-Otaibi, who is a fitness instructor
00:18 with a big social media following in Saudi Arabia.
00:21 Well, she's just been detained for more than six months, accused of launching a propaganda
00:27 campaign.
00:28 Well, amongst the issues she spoke out about was the country's male guardianship laws and
00:32 rules about how women dress.
00:34 Well, the 29-year-old's case is being handled by a court that's more usually tasked with
00:39 terrorist-related cases.
00:40 Well, let's get more on the overall situation in Saudi Arabia, and we can speak to Lina
00:46 Al-Hathloul, who is the head of monitoring and an activist at ALQST, which is a London-based
00:53 group advocating for human rights in Saudi Arabia.
00:55 Lina, thank you so much for joining us.
00:58 Your sister, Loujain, was imprisoned, is now forbidden from leaving Saudi Arabia because
01:03 of her activism.
01:04 First of all, just tell us, how is your sister right now?
01:07 Well, my sister Loujain is on a travel ban.
01:11 My whole family is on a travel ban, and being on a travel ban in Saudi Arabia means that
01:16 you're in constant fear.
01:18 After her release, she was targeted with Pegasus, which is a spyware, zero-click spyware.
01:24 So she knows she's surveilled, and anything she does could land her in jail again.
01:31 And you yourself are, of course, quite outspoken.
01:34 Can you go to Saudi Arabia?
01:36 Well, if I go back to Saudi Arabia, I will most probably be imprisoned.
01:41 Salma al-Shihab, who is a Saudi, not very famous activist, she had less than 100 followers.
01:48 She only retweeted me in her charges.
01:50 She has been sentenced to 27 years for retweeting me.
01:53 So I guess I will see prison if I go back to Saudi.
01:57 And does this mean as well you have to be careful about what you say, even when you're
02:00 not in Saudi?
02:01 Because what you say, couldn't it have repercussions for your sister or for other members of your
02:06 family who are still there?
02:07 Well, it's very difficult to say.
02:10 I mean, it's, of course, a risk management, a daily risk management I have to really consider.
02:15 But the thing is, when we were silent at the very beginning, when my sister was arrested
02:20 and that at the time she was being tortured, we decided not to speak up because we thought
02:24 that this is the right way to save her and to find a solution.
02:31 But at the end of the day, Saudi Arabia only cares about its image and about public pressure.
02:37 So the louder I am, the better it is, I think.
02:42 But I mean, a lot of people will be wondering, you know, it's a really confusing situation
02:46 for people, certainly in this part of the world.
02:49 I mean, we're seeing football players going over there.
02:51 Our friends are posting photographs on social media of their holidays in Saudi Arabia, something
02:56 people didn't do even a couple of years ago.
02:58 So it seems like Saudi Arabia is changing.
03:01 The message we're getting is that the country is becoming more tolerant, more modern.
03:05 And at the same time, we hear stories like what's happening to your sister.
03:08 It's almost as if there are two Saudi Arabias.
03:10 Absolutely.
03:11 I think you just summarised the situation.
03:14 There are actually two Saudi Arabias, one for Westerners and one for the Saudi people.
03:20 You mentioned the case of Manahel al-Ateibi, the case of my sister.
03:24 And these are only like the symbolic cases that managed to go out.
03:28 Because for my sister's case is because I'm abroad.
03:31 Manahel's case is when her sister had to flee Saudi Arabia to speak about her sister.
03:36 And another example, for example, is the LGBTQ issue in Saudi Arabia.
03:42 They say that they welcome tourists who are part of the community.
03:46 But then you have people like Tariq Aziz, who just fled Saudi Arabia after spending
03:51 a year in prison for tweeting on this matter.
03:55 So at the end of the day, what is really happening is a huge PR campaign that Saudi Arabia is
04:00 undertaking to flirt with the West, to have tourists visit the country.
04:06 But the situation for Saudis has not changed, and it has even gotten worse with the unprecedented
04:15 prison sentences for tweets, over 30 years for tweeting.
04:20 The unprecedented death penalty rates, even minors still get executed.
04:26 So at the end of the day, the situation has not changed.
04:29 It's a dictatorship.
04:30 It's a police state.
04:32 Trials are always behind closed doors.
04:35 The murder of Khashoggi, why isn't anyone talking about this anymore?
04:39 It's just very, you know, it represents really the situation in Saudi Arabia.
04:47 Everyone is very scared to speak.
04:50 Anything can lead you to jail.
04:51 But actually, tourists are very satisfied with the situation, and everyone is turning
04:56 a blind eye on the situation of the Saudi people.
05:00 And when it comes to women's rights, I mean, women still need permission to travel, don't
05:05 they?
05:06 And to get married.
05:07 And you can't get an apartment without a male guardian or a male guarantor.
05:10 I mean, are things getting any better for women?
05:13 Because we're told they are.
05:15 And you know, the image that we're seeing is that perhaps there are more Saudi women
05:20 making the headlines, perhaps behind the wheel of a car, perhaps in a sporting event.
05:25 Is that a gain?
05:26 Do you think just projection of this of this image the country wants us to see?
05:30 Well, there has been changes.
05:34 That's for sure.
05:35 But the changes have been led by women, and the ones who have been fighting for it have
05:39 been charged with terrorism.
05:42 And these changes, the problem is, as we see with the case of Manahil Al-Ateibi, who was
05:46 actually in her charges, she was charged with not wearing a 'abaya.
05:50 So the changes and the red lines are not clear anymore.
05:55 So it really creates an atmosphere of constant fear of people not knowing what is allowed
05:59 or not.
06:00 And at the end of the day, if we say that the situation is better for women, it's when
06:04 women can lead the fight, they can ask for their own rights.
06:07 You cannot just impose changes and say that women are in a better situation now and imprison
06:12 them when they ask for their rights.
06:14 It's just another new kind of repression.
06:16 You give the rights that you think are good for your own image.
06:19 I'm talking about the government.
06:21 And you do not allow them to lead the fight and to really build the society that they
06:26 want to live in.
06:27 So the male guardianship system still exists.
06:30 We are still considered as minors to the end of our lives.
06:33 And if we ask for changes, we go to prison.
06:38 So I don't think that the situation has fundamentally changed.
06:42 It's still a very structured repression towards women.
06:48 There is this campaign called Vision 2030, and it's the country's economic and social
06:54 reform agenda.
06:55 I mean, its name suggests that it's not yet finished because we're only 2023.
06:59 It does include, doesn't it, women's rights and various other social reforms.
07:04 Do you think there's any argument for saying, look, this isn't going to happen overnight,
07:09 but let's give them some time?
07:12 Let's see what Vision 2030 brings us.
07:16 And maybe Antony Blinken lecturing the Crown Prince will have the reverse effect from the
07:22 effect that you and I would like to see.
07:25 Well, first, the question is, give time to whom?
07:31 We Saudi people want to be part of this vision.
07:34 We don't want it to be imposed on us.
07:36 And that is why actually we as Saudi activists abroad, we have the people's vision, which
07:42 was built on the, like, after the Saudi 2030 was published, because we think that there's
07:47 a chapter that's missing actually in the Vision 2030 is the Saudi people.
07:51 We are not part of the construction of the new state of Saudi Arabia.
07:56 We have been forgotten.
07:57 So basically it's just on paper a vision that has not included the Saudi people.
08:02 And some of the principles in the vision, we have been advocating for it, but arrested
08:10 for that, exactly.
08:11 So at the end of the day, it's only on paper and the people who have been advocating for
08:16 it, the people have been agreeing on these principles for a long time have been arrested.
08:23 So do they truly want to change the country or do they just want it to be part of their
08:27 PR campaign to repress Saudi people even more?
08:31 I don't think that it is a vision made for the Saudi people.
08:36 I think that it is a vision made for the government and to empower and legitimize an authoritarian
08:43 regime.
08:44 Okay, well, I would love to carry on the conversation.
08:46 I'm afraid we're out of time, but thank you so much for taking the time to speak to us.
08:50 Lina Al-Hathloul, we wish you and your sister, Loujain, all the very best.
08:55 Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us.
08:57 Thank you.
