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00:00 Welcome to our special programme dedicated to the situation in Libya.
00:12 Flooding brought by Storm Daniel has pushed a divided nation to the
00:16 limit, with alarming levels of death and destruction.
00:19 Let's show you some of the images from the scene.
00:22 They really do tell the story.
00:23 The death toll in Libya is now estimated at more than 2,300.
00:27 This is the Red Crescent going public with this figure and adding that as many as 10,000
00:32 people are unaccounted for.
00:34 In reality, the total killed by the floods will be far higher because the area affected
00:39 has a transit population that isn't documented, basically migrants travelling through, hoping
00:44 to reach Europe.
00:45 The coast of Libya has been battered by Storm Daniel.
00:49 Derna has been underwater, the storm there causing two dams to burst.
00:54 Moussa, Al-Maj and Benghazi all badly flooded too.
00:58 Well, join us to discuss the situation we have here in the studio.
01:02 Our environment commentator Valérie de Kint, Valérie, thank you for being with us.
01:06 We have joining us by Skype from Washington DC, Frédéric Véry, who's a senior fellow
01:11 at the Middle East Programme at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.
01:15 Frédéric, thank you for joining us.
01:17 And joining us by phone from Tripoli in Libya, Gouma Elgamati, who's head of the Taghia Party.
01:24 Maybe give us an insight as to what is happening on the ground there in Libya.
01:27 Gouma, thank you for being with us.
01:29 First, let's get a roundup of the situation here at France 24.
01:32 Charlie James with this.
01:36 One quarter of the city of Derna completely washed away.
01:41 Thousands of residents killed when dams outside the city collapsed, unleashing a wall of water.
01:47 Witnesses say it erased everything in its path.
01:52 Dams collapsed around Ouad Hiderna and caused water to cascade into the city itself.
01:57 Three bridges collapsed completely and water spread inside the neighborhoods.
02:01 And there are entire neighborhoods that moved to the sea.
02:05 The destruction caused by Mediterranean storm Daniel.
02:08 After devastating parts of Greece, Bulgaria and Turkey, Daniel pounded eastern Libya's
02:13 coast Sunday night.
02:16 I saw a man carried away by water who just passed my house.
02:20 I don't know if he's hanging onto that car or if he's gone far away.
02:25 A state of emergency has been announced, but it's slow and arduous work for rescue teams
02:30 still waiting for the flooding to recede.
02:33 Emergency crews have uncovered hundreds of bodies and several aid workers have died.
02:38 But the rival politics of post-war Libya makes this challenge even more difficult.
02:43 The eastern Libyan regime, backed by Russia, is not internationally recognized.
02:49 And its public service and hospital system have been weakened by years of conflict.
02:56 These are hard and painful times.
02:59 The number of affected people is very big.
03:03 The damage is huge.
03:06 It's hard to describe or measure it.
03:09 The Tripoli-based National Unity Government says it will send all assistance possible
03:14 to the east and has requested international help.
03:17 Italy, Egypt and Turkey among the nations already answering that call, sending aid and
03:23 rescue teams.
03:25 Tragic situation.
03:26 Let's go straight to Tripoli where Gouma Elgamati, head of the Tagia party is waiting
03:30 for us.
03:31 Gouma, thanks for joining us in these circumstances.
03:33 Sympathies to yourself, to your people.
03:36 What is your take on what is going on?
03:38 What is your sense of what is happening right now?
03:41 Thank you for having me on.
03:43 The news are still coming through of the magnitude of the disaster, the catastrophe, especially
03:50 in Darna.
03:51 I mean, Daniel had the east of Libya from Benghazi all the way to Darna, but Darna brought,
03:57 you know, the biggest effect and the biggest damage is in Darna.
04:01 We are talking about an entire district in the center of the city have been swept away
04:07 by heavy water coming down from the one mountain when two dams literally busted and unprecedented
04:16 amounts of water and rain just came down and swept entire buildings, four, five, six story
04:22 buildings, entire houses just swept away into the sea.
04:27 So thousands and thousands of people are still missing.
04:31 Those who have been collected and buried in mass graves in an area called Martuba east
04:36 of Darna are already nearly a thousand, which means that probably thousands and thousands
04:41 more bodies have not been collected or picked up or even are in the sea.
04:47 So the magnitude is absolutely huge.
04:49 It is a catastrophe.
04:51 It's unprecedented.
04:52 Libya has never seen anything like this.
04:56 And the country is simply not equipped to deal with this disaster.
05:00 It doesn't matter about the political divide, because this challenge, this humanitarian
05:05 disaster transcends all political polarization and all political divisions.
05:10 All Libyans are coming together.
05:13 Everybody is doing their part.
05:15 Everybody is contributing.
05:16 Mobilizations have been from all over the country, from the West, from the East, from
05:20 the South, from all authorities, whether it's the government in the East or the government
05:24 in Tripoli, all municipalities, all civil defense authorities have been mobilized.
05:31 But we are simply not equipped to deal with the magnitude of the disaster.
05:36 We badly and urgently need international support and international intervention.
05:43 We need sophisticated equipment.
05:45 We need equipment to collect people or identify people under the rubble, under buildings and
05:52 collect bodies.
05:53 We need equipment to restore power and electricity, which is completely out in Darna.
05:58 We need equipment to restore communication, telecommunication and internet, so that people
06:03 inside who are trapped can communicate with their relatives.
06:06 We need temporary roads and temporary bridges.
06:10 So the magnitude is huge.
06:12 The amount of help is needed is also huge.
06:17 And unfortunately, people are stuck, are trapped.
06:21 This city is about 180,000 population.
06:25 So you can imagine when the whole heart of the city, the city center, a huge residential
06:31 area, will probably 20 or 30,000 population have been completely overrun by by water.
06:38 You can you can imagine the catastrophe and the level of the damage.
06:42 So I hope the international community will come and come fast because it's badly needed.
06:48 The international community listening to this broadcast, Gouma, and the way you've described
06:52 it is incredibly vivid and it is incredibly moving.
06:55 And one can only imagine the extent of the suffering in the place that you've just described.
06:59 You understand at Darna, two dams bursting under the weight and the intensity of Storm
07:07 Daniel.
07:08 Do you have any more to tell us about that?
07:10 Yes, because the geography of Darna is Darna is an enclave where there is between a mountain
07:17 and the sea.
07:19 So the mountain is to the south and the sea to the north.
07:22 And there is a little valley, literally a little river which runs from the top of the
07:27 mountain south of the city all the way down to the sea.
07:31 It splits the city into two halves.
07:34 This little valley or river, normally they have two dams, one at the top and one in the
07:41 middle.
07:42 Those dams were built 40 years ago.
07:45 And normally there is never this level of rain and water.
07:49 You see, the rainfall in the last few days has never been witnessed in Libya.
07:53 So that is why normally the dams will cope with the amount of rain and the water will
07:58 just trickle down through the little valley and then just go to the sea.
08:02 But this time the dams completely busted.
08:06 The amount of water that came down completely took away three bridges and just overran the
08:11 whole district area of the center of the city.
08:15 So it's unbelievable.
08:18 You never see it.
08:19 You only see it in movies.
08:21 So that is why it's horrific.
08:23 And people, unfortunately, it happened like three, four o'clock in the morning.
08:26 So people were asleep.
08:28 People were not warned.
08:30 People were not told to evacuate hours before.
08:33 They should have been alarming.
08:34 There should have been warning signals there.
08:36 There should have been warnings from the authorities for people to evacuate and move away from
08:42 this area.
08:43 We hear reports that the municipality, the mayor of Darna, recommended that all those
08:48 people in the center should be evacuated hours and hours before the dam busted.
08:54 But some other superior military force in the east told them nobody moves.
09:00 This story needs to be verified.
09:02 But this is what we read today and what we hear.
09:04 So I think there should be, when everything is calmed down, we need an investigation of
09:09 exactly what happened and why a mass evacuation was not carried out hours and hours before
09:16 the dam hit Darna and before this level of waterfall and rain and water levels hit the
09:23 city.
09:24 But that's yet to be established.
09:25 But now all we think about is those who perished, those who are dead, those who are under the
09:31 rubble, those who are floating in the sea, and that the city is completely cut off, no
09:36 power, no electricity, no communication, no internet, no hospitals, no medical supplies,
09:43 no food, no shelter.
09:44 And it's very difficult to get into the city, because you only get to the city from three
09:49 roads, one from the east, one from the west, and one from the south through the mountain.
09:53 And I think all three roads are now cut off, and it's impossible to get in by car.
09:58 That's why we need temporary roads and temporary bridges.
10:01 It's a huge engineering operation, but I'm sure international communities have those
10:08 facilities and those means to give this kind of logistical support.
10:12 Gouma El Goumati, head of the Libyan Tagia party, talking to us from Tripoli.
10:17 Thank you so very much indeed for giving us what is a really disturbing and detailed account
10:23 of what has happened in that part of Libya.
10:26 And the scale, of course, as Gouma is saying, is something we're still trying to come to
10:30 terms with.
10:31 Our next guest, Dax Bennett-Rock, who's country director for Libya at the Norwegian Refugee
10:36 Council.
10:37 Thanks for joining us, sir.
10:38 We heard from Gouma El Goumati that international aid and help is needed.
10:42 Can I just ask you to take it up from there?
10:45 What can you offer?
10:46 What's on the way?
10:47 Exactly.
10:48 I think your guest, Ustaz Goumal, has accurately sort of painted a dire picture in Libya and
10:55 the impact the storm has had, not only in the east, but across Libya.
10:59 I think my main message to the international community is to mobilize funding as soon as
11:04 possible.
11:05 As Mr. Goumal has highlighted, there are needs concerning infrastructure, damaged homes,
11:10 damaged water stations, damaged dams.
11:13 But more importantly, you have thousands of people who have passed away, who have lost
11:17 everything that they have worked for to build.
11:19 And these communities, especially those impacted in Derna, need emergency assistance.
11:25 They need access to shelter, safe shelter.
11:27 They need access to food, drinking water.
11:30 They need access to basic essentials.
11:32 And more importantly, you have thousands of young people and children who have also been
11:37 impacted by this severe storm, who are going through very, very difficult physical and
11:41 mental situation.
11:43 So we need teams that can provide psychosocial support to these young people.
11:47 So I urge the international community to mobilize resources for the Libya response, for local
11:53 actors on the ground, for international organizations as well, given that Libya has been a crisis
12:00 that has been underfunded for some time now.
12:04 Given the situation, Dax, in terms of the number of people affected here, and obviously
12:08 the death toll is one thing, but there are lots of people who are still there in need
12:11 of all the things that have been destroyed.
12:14 And obviously the issue of secondary infection following the disaster is a big threat now
12:19 too, isn't it?
12:21 Correct.
12:22 And that's why, again, the urge for mobilizing resources to ensure that people can have access
12:26 to safe hygiene, safe wash facilities, and then more importantly, safe access to shelter
12:32 as well, given that the damage specifically in Derna, but also in Benghazi and Shahad
12:37 and Al-Beda has been quite impactful for the affected communities.
12:41 Large neighborhoods, residential buildings have been completely destroyed.
12:45 So emergency funding is needed to make sure that people have a safe place to live, to
12:49 reside, as they're able to recover over the next couple of months and years to get back
12:54 to their normalcy.
12:55 Indeed.
12:56 And what can be done for those people who are currently, I suppose the term refugee
13:01 might come into question, but obviously a refugee is someone going from one place to
13:05 another at times.
13:07 These people are stuck.
13:08 I mean, getting help to them is going to be a major problem.
13:11 Correct.
13:13 Refugees and migrants are at increased risk in Libya.
13:16 But again, this storm has affected large parts of the country.
13:20 It has impacted communities, both Libyan communities and migrant refugee communities.
13:26 So I think the best strategy for it is to make sure that funding is mobilized quickly,
13:31 that it arrives to local actors, to international organizations, so they can provide both lifesaving
13:37 assistance to refugees and migrants and also to Libyans as well.
13:42 Max Bennett-Rock from the Norwegian Refugee Council, Country Director for Libya.
13:46 Thank you, sir, for sharing your analysis of the situation and your take.
13:50 Much appreciated here in France.
13:52 Thank you very much indeed.
13:54 That issue about international aid.
13:55 Thank you again, sir, for joining us.
13:56 The issue of international aid, of course, is paramount.
14:00 Let's bring in Jasper Mortimer, our correspondent in Ankara, Turkey.
14:03 Jasper, we understand Turkey already lining up some kind of humanitarian aid program coming
14:11 from Ankara to Libya.
14:14 What more can you tell us?
14:16 Yes, this is quite interesting.
14:19 The first two countries to provide aid to Libya are two former colonial powers in Libya,
14:28 Italy and the Turks.
14:31 Turkey has flown three plane fulls of aid containing various pieces of equipment, you
14:39 know, 20 generators, two rubber dinghies.
14:43 I think it's 400 food and hygiene product packets, 600 blankets, 170 tents.
14:55 But most importantly of all, 168 rescue personnel, including divers who will go under the flood
15:05 waters and try and retrieve bodies.
15:09 And you know, the rescue personnel are in for a tricky situation because three Libyan
15:17 rescue workers working for the Libyan Red Crescent have already died in this disaster.
15:24 The interesting thing about the Turkish aid was that it was flown to Benghazi, the capital
15:29 of eastern Libya.
15:30 Now, Turkey supports the West Libyan government.
15:34 But yet President Recep Tayyip Erdogan clearly has enough influence with the eastern Libyan
15:41 authorities that he can land his aid plane on their territory.
15:46 Jasper, it's especially interesting from a political angle too, isn't it?
15:50 Because clearly there was a massive job to be done.
15:52 But clearly, what is this thing about Turkey's stance, do you think?
15:58 I think Recep Tayyip Erdogan is demonstrating his unusual ability to give military support
16:05 to one side in a conflict while keeping on good terms with the other side.
16:12 He's doing this in Ukraine.
16:14 Turkey provides military drones to the Ukrainians, but Erdogan keeps on good terms with the Russians,
16:23 as shown by his summit with President Vladimir Putin in Sochi last week.
16:31 In the case of Libya, Turkey supplies military equipment and military advisers to the internationally
16:39 recognized government in Tripoli, West Libya.
16:43 But Erdogan still clearly hasn't burnt his bridges with the eastern Libyan rebels.
16:51 Domestically, the disaster is proving to be politically significant as well.
16:58 Earlier today, a plane carrying I think 14 tons of humanitarian aid took off, a West
17:07 Libyan government plane took off from Tripoli and landed in Benghazi.
17:12 It must be the first time in many years that a West Libyan government plane has landed
17:17 in Benghazi.
17:20 And this shows that these floods, awful and murderous though they are, they are providing
17:28 an opportunity to bring the two sides of Libya together.
17:33 Jasper Mortimer for now.
17:34 Thank you very much indeed, Jasper Mortimer, our correspondent in Ankara.
17:39 Let's bring in from Washington DC, Frederick Reri, who's senior fellow at the Middle East
17:43 Program of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.
17:46 Mr. Frederick, thank you for bearing with us and I hope you're able to follow what our
17:50 previous speakers were saying.
17:52 Can I bring back something that Gouma El-Ghamati was saying, he said of the Taghia party in
17:57 Libya.
17:58 He joined us from the capital, Tripoli.
18:00 He was talking about the fact that this is, in a sense, a disaster which is uniting a
18:05 divided country.
18:07 Do you see that actually as a realistic thing?
18:09 Do you see going forward that this could be the start of a broader solution in Libya?
18:16 Thank you.
18:17 Yeah, my condolences to the people of Libya and especially the residents of Derna.
18:21 That's my great hope.
18:22 I mean, again, we've perhaps seen some encouraging signs.
18:26 We've already seen a lot of the political divisions, at least at the elite level, being
18:30 bridged between the leader of the Western government, Prime Minister Dababa, and Khalifa
18:36 Heftar.
18:37 There's been a lot of convergence.
18:38 So now you have this flight, this exchange of aid.
18:41 Again, I hope that at the working level, in terms of relief aid, medicine, food, that
18:47 we're going to see the country come together.
18:49 And we certainly see signs of that happening.
18:52 However, will this really result in a change in the way Libya is governed?
18:58 And I think the great tragedy of the scale of the deaths in this flood is that it's really
19:02 an indictment of how Libya has been governed, right?
19:06 The corruption, the lack of preparedness, the shoddy construction materials, the fact
19:12 that these dams were neglected.
19:15 Floods are not unique in Libya.
19:17 There's been flooding in multiple towns, and in many cases it's a problem of poor urban
19:22 design.
19:23 Again, so we're talking here about regions and towns that have been neglected, in part
19:30 for political reasons.
19:31 And again, we have to point the finger at the political class of Libya.
19:34 Why was Darna so exposed?
19:37 In part because it has a history of problems with the regime, the military regime of General
19:42 Khalifa Heftar in eastern Libya.
19:45 And he's kept it on military lockdown.
19:47 And I think that political dimension has to be brought into the conversation here.
19:53 Since 2011, of course, and the demise of the dictator Muammar Gaddafi, Libya has been,
19:59 as you were hinting at there, a divided nation.
20:02 Often the word lawless is used.
20:05 It's that sense of neglect, is it, that has led and really exacerbated this situation?
20:10 You're alluding to the dams and how they were poorly maintained.
20:12 I mean, one would expect a dam would not burst in a storm.
20:17 Right.
20:18 Again, I'm not an engineer, but my understanding is, well, from what I know about Libya's infrastructure
20:24 in multiple areas, and, you know, talking about drainage, sewage, all sorts of things,
20:29 this is a country that, you know, even under Gaddafi was falling apart.
20:33 And it's gotten worse under, you know, since his demise in terms of what you called lawlessness,
20:40 the rule of predatory militias who are basically after money.
20:44 I mean, there's a whole story here of environmental devastation, deforestation that leaves the
20:50 country more exposed to extreme weather events and climate change.
20:55 The country is not preparing for climate change.
20:57 It's one of the most exposed countries in the world.
21:01 Again, it's in part because of, I think, you know, longstanding structural factors, but
21:06 it's also the political choices of the country's elites, its ruling class.
21:11 Frederic, can you bear with us, please?
21:13 I'd like to try and get back to you for a couple of comments before the end of the program.
21:17 Thank you very much, Frederic Verrie, from the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.
21:22 Let's bring in our environment commentator, Valerie De Kimp, here in the studio.
21:27 Valerie, Storm Daniel.
21:29 One might not have expected two dams to burst in one place and cause such devastation.
21:35 One might have expected lots of rain, but not the devastation that's been caused by
21:39 this flooding.
21:40 Give us some sense of this Storm Daniel and its power.
21:43 Right.
21:44 So Storm Daniel essentially transformed into what weather experts are now calling a medicaine.
21:51 So it's short for Mediterranean hurricane, a tropical-like cyclone occurring occasionally
21:58 in the Mediterranean Sea.
22:00 And so let me show you, this is what a medicaine looks like.
22:03 And this was over the weekend as it made landfall in Benghazi.
22:07 So just like a hurricane, you know, the clouds swirl around and this is like central structure.
22:15 This is where the storm is the strongest.
22:18 So it is a medicaine, a Mediterranean hurricane, is not as powerful as a hurricane, because
22:24 they are geographically confined to the Mediterranean Sea, surrounded by land.
22:30 But again, that doesn't mean that they cannot be deadly, as we have seen with flooding,
22:35 with heavy, heavy rainfall and strong winds.
22:39 Now this medicaine, again, began with Storm Daniel, Storm Daniel wreaking havoc in Greece,
22:45 Turkey and Bulgaria.
22:46 And it all started, Storm Daniel, with this, the Omega Blanc, a weather pattern consisting
22:54 of high-pressure regions with high temperatures here in the middle, sandwiched between two
23:01 regions with low pressure.
23:03 And this is what created Storm Daniel, again, transforming into this Mediterranean hurricane.
23:11 And so after it triggered heavy flooding in Greece, it then moved towards the south there,
23:19 Libya.
23:20 And we have this, the images here showing you how it moved and progressed towards Libya.
23:27 And what we know now is that it has moved towards Egypt.
23:30 Indeed, that could be the very next destination.
23:32 Of course, people in Egypt starting to batten down the hatches in anticipation of that.
23:37 So a medicaine, a Mediterranean hurricane, is this something that is a natural occurring
23:45 phenomenon?
23:46 I think that's what you said.
23:47 Is it made worse by climate change?
23:48 I presume the answer is yes.
23:50 Absolutely.
23:51 I mean, and that's the really important thing to mention here, is that, of course, a Mediterranean
23:56 hurricane is a natural phenomenon.
23:59 But the important point to make is that climate change is exacerbating weather events like
24:05 this medicaine.
24:07 And they're also made more likely by human-induced climate change.
24:12 So it's like Storm Daniel was supercharged, if you will, by the climate crisis.
24:17 And so, investigating the links between climate change and recurrent weather disasters is
24:23 now a specific scientific discipline called attribution science.
24:29 And this is something that usually requires a lot of research.
24:32 But a team of scientists here in Europe, they've come together, they've developed a framework
24:36 to call Climeter, providing a scientific assessment of weather disasters immediately after they
24:44 happen.
24:45 And so they've looked at Storm Daniel.
24:47 This is part of their conclusion, a very simple graphic here.
24:51 So essentially, Storm Daniel was strengthened by climate change.
24:56 And it also, it shows you there that it remains a relatively rare event, again, storms supercharged
25:04 by climate change.
25:05 Another really quick point that I want to make, Mark, that is important, is that the
25:09 Mediterranean has been hit by recurrent marine heat waves, not only this summer, but also
25:15 last summer, with temperatures rising five, six degrees above normal, above average, so
25:23 sometimes reaching 30 degrees Celsius water temperatures.
25:26 We're talking about water temperatures even at a depth of like 20, 30 meters.
25:31 And so this is also adding to storms, because storms become more powerful.
25:37 They get their energy from high water temperatures.
25:41 And so, again, you see how this is all so intertwined with, you know, different consequences,
25:49 impacts of climate change all coming together and creating even more powerful climate disasters.
25:56 And so this is essentially what we're seeing now in the Mediterranean, the Mediterranean
26:01 being one of the regions in the world, according to IPCC scientists, one of the most vulnerable
26:07 as well to all the different kind of climate disasters that we're talking about.
26:12 Valerie, thank you.
26:13 You paint a very vivid picture of a vicious circle, which is making things worse by the
26:18 moment.
26:19 And clearly, this whole concept is something that we all need to be turning our attention
26:24 to, don't we?
26:25 David Hakeem, thank you very much for joining us.
26:27 Great to see you.
26:28 Let's go straight to Cairo.
26:29 Edouard Cousin is there waiting for us.
26:31 Edouard, thank you for joining us.
26:34 It seems that the storm is heading towards you next.
26:37 Are you prepared?
26:39 Yes.
26:40 Well, in terms of preparation, the government here in Egypt has given slightly mixed signals.
26:49 On Sunday, the state media headlined, "Be ready.
26:55 Storm Daniel is going to hit Egypt on Monday night," so yesterday night.
26:59 But yesterday on Monday itself, the same media had a headline saying, "No need for panic,"
27:05 because Storm Daniel has lost much of its strength, so it will not be so severe here
27:11 in Egypt.
27:13 So far, what we've seen in terms of the weather in Egypt is indeed not much reason to panic.
27:19 The weather changed.
27:20 The weather is unusual.
27:21 We have seen dust storms, heavy winds, cloudy, light rain, which is very unusual for September
27:29 in Cairo, but nothing in terms of extreme weather causing actual damages.
27:35 The areas most at risk would be the Mediterranean coast, and in the north coast of Egypt, for
27:41 instance, the big city of Alexandria.
27:44 But I've heard from people there also thick fog, strong winds, but nothing disastrous.
27:53 Only more to the west, towards the border with Libya.
27:57 I've seen a lot of videos and heard from people very strong winds there.
28:02 Again unusual.
28:03 Again, nothing like we've seen in Libya.
28:07 So far, it seems that Egypt is relatively spared.
28:12 These kind of storms are definitely a concern for Egypt.
28:15 You have the northern coast of the Mediterranean, the big cities, and with a low delta, it's
28:20 very vulnerable for flooding or storms that could cause a lot of damage and injuries.
28:27 But as said, this storm, so far, that seems not to be the case.
28:32 But are people actually making preparations, Edward?
28:38 Not that I've seen.
28:39 Not that I've seen.
28:43 People seem to be rather calm about it.
28:46 Of course, on social media, you see people being worried after seeing the footages in
28:51 Libya and about some media reports.
28:54 But on the streets, to be honest, people are living their lives.
28:59 And media were even reporting that the coming days there will be some cooler weather, which
29:04 is pleasant compared to a huge heatwave that was there last week.
29:08 So we have a very different picture here.
29:10 Edward Coussin, in Cairo, thank you very much indeed for giving us that snapshot of how
29:14 Egypt is preparing or not for the arrival of this storm, which according to you, Edward,
29:19 and we understand its power will have reduced somewhat before it arrives where you are.
29:25 Edward Coussin, thank you very much indeed.
29:26 Let's go back to Washington, Frederick Werry waiting for us there from the Carnegie Endowment
29:30 for International Peace, Senior Fellow Frederick Werry.
29:33 Frederick, the situation, clearly, in terms of sorting out what's happening in Libya,
29:40 there is much that needs to be done.
29:42 What do you see as the priorities right now?
29:44 I mean, clearly, getting bodies there to help to sort of get supplies into people who desperately
29:50 need them, getting people in there with expertise to clean up, that's got to be the priority,
29:55 doesn't it?
29:56 Absolutely.
29:57 I mean, we need the relief effort.
30:00 We need to get access for humanitarian relief.
30:05 That's absolutely the first priority.
30:07 But as was mentioned, I do hope that this creates momentum for some broader political
30:13 changes, political reconciliation, some changes to the way things are done in Libya, and specifically,
30:18 again, bridging those political divides in Libya between the East and West, but more
30:22 importantly, local level governance, ensuring that towns like Derna and other areas throughout
30:29 the country are properly equipped to handle disasters like this and just meet the needs
30:36 of their citizens.
30:37 When I travel across Libya, it's very clear to me that this story of neglect, towns not
30:43 having the right infrastructure, not having enough water, not being prepared for fires,
30:50 for things like climate change, that's a recurring story.
30:53 And so I really hope that the officials in both Tripoli and then in the East and Benghazi
30:58 are going to take away some lessons from this horrible human tragedy.
31:04 Because the potential of Libya is huge, isn't it?
31:08 I mean, it could be in many ways a very prosperous and functioning place, could it not, with
31:15 the right kind of adjustments?
31:17 Absolutely.
31:18 The country has enormous potential.
31:20 Again, obviously, it's oil reserves, solar energy.
31:25 It has enormous potential as a tourism attraction.
31:29 The coastline, actually, of Derna is one of the most beautiful coastlines in the Mediterranean,
31:34 and I've had Libyan friends saying it's better than the French Riviera.
31:38 We're talking about pristine beaches.
31:40 There are archaeological ruins along that stretch of Eastern Libya that are world class.
31:46 And so again, the country has enormous historical heritage, enormous cultural and human potential,
31:53 as you mentioned.
31:54 Frederick Rowe, for now, thank you very much indeed, Frederick Rowe from the Carnegie Endowment
32:01 for International Peace.
32:03 Let's get more on the, thank you, sir.
32:05 Let's get more on this idea of the aid getting through.
32:08 Clearly, as Jasper Morta was telling us earlier from Ankara, there is a Turkish delegation
32:13 that's been sent with three aircraft bringing all manner of humanitarian aid that is needed
32:19 very, very urgently.
32:20 Clearly, if we heard from Gouma Elgamati at the beginning of this program, that Libya
32:25 is overwhelmed.
32:26 People are really struggling to cope with the scale of what is in front of them.
32:30 And it has been a devastating sequence of events.
32:34 Let's take a look then at this humanitarian angle.
32:39 Jetted in from Turkey, rescue teams and humanitarian aid, including tents, generators, food, hygiene
32:46 products and clothes, rescue boats and life vests are unloaded from the United Arab Emirates.
32:52 Meanwhile, aid sent by other Libyan municipalities arrived at Al-Abrak airport, bound for the
32:59 nearby eastern coastal towns hit by flash flooding, in particular Derna, where dams
33:05 broke and entire neighbourhoods were washed away.
33:07 "Derna is facing an absolute crisis.
33:11 Meghili has been completely cut off.
33:14 Yesterday we left at 4am driving around 350km to reach it.
33:19 It's a disastrous situation."
33:22 Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi pledged military equipment and personnel, while the
33:27 US, Iran, Italy and Qatar are among other countries to promise aid.
33:33 Libya is already straining from more than a decade of conflict.
33:37 And aid organisation must be coordinated between the country's two governments.
33:42 The Prime Minister of the government in eastern Libya said the devastation in Derna is far
33:46 beyond the capabilities of his country.
33:49 A sentiment echoed by the IFRC.
33:51 "The humanitarian needs are huge and much more beyond the abilities of the Libyan regressive
33:58 and even beyond the abilities of the government.
34:01 The challenges are ranging between access to basic health facilities or health services,
34:07 shelter and shelter management, food and non-food items, first aid, social support and restoring
34:15 family links."
34:16 A World Health Organization spokesperson described a calamity of epic proportions, while the
34:21 UN's Organisation for Migration expressed concern for the many vulnerable migrants in
34:27 the country.
34:28 Catherine McEddo-Clifford with that report.
34:31 Joining us here for the final moments of our special programme on the situation in Libya,
34:37 we have our environmental commentator Valerie de Kim and joining us from Washington, Frederic
34:42 Werry from the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.
34:45 Valerie, can I come to you and just raise the issue we were speaking about earlier,
34:50 you and I, this whole thing about the injustice that climate change is produced by the rich
34:57 industrialised nations and it's Africa that produces so little of these climate change
35:02 issues, gases, you can make the whole list.
35:06 That is the worst affected and here, you know, Libya there in North Africa going through
35:10 this remarkable, horrendous devastation caused by a natural disaster made all the worse by
35:15 climate change.
35:16 But clearly this is yet another example of the injustice of the climate crisis.
35:23 Libya is responsible for 0.2% of global emissions.
35:28 So they contribute so little to the climate crisis and yet they will pay such a heavy
35:34 price for the storm, not just economically, of course, we've seen the devastation, the
35:39 destruction, but livelihoods, lives and just the growth potential you were talking about
35:45 there, Mark.
35:46 So G20 countries, on the other hand, meeting in India just this weekend, they are responsible
35:52 for 78% of global greenhouse gas emissions.
35:56 So we've heard of, you know, countries, Turkey, for example, providing aid, bringing
36:01 aid to Libya.
36:02 In the long term, though, those countries, G20 countries, industrialised nations are
36:08 not the ones finding themselves in heavy debt as a result of recurrent climate disasters
36:17 in order to respond to the crisis, again, lost growth potential because these extreme
36:23 weather events will get more and more intense and more frequent as well.
36:28 So I would not be surprised if, you know, the events in Libya become some form of rallying
36:34 cry for developing nations heading into COP28, the UN Climate Summit in Dubai later this
36:41 year, with developing nations demanding that wealthy nations really do their part in terms
36:47 of ambition, raising ambition, reducing—further reducing their greenhouse gas emissions, but,
36:54 of course, more importantly, in terms of finance, what exactly are they bringing to the table
36:59 for developing nations like Libya to respond to, you know, devastating events like what
37:05 we've seen so far?
37:07 You know, over the years, we've had wealthy nations that have this promise of providing
37:13 $100 billion U.S. every single year.
37:17 That target has never been met.
37:20 And I would also not be surprised if, you know, the events in Libya become another tragic
37:26 example that developing nations will use to say this is exactly why we need a loss and
37:34 damage mechanism, a funding mechanism they've been demanding and calling for for years that
37:40 will help poor nations really respond to weather events that they cannot adapt to.
37:47 This is not something they can prepare for.
37:49 Valerie, thank you very much indeed.
37:51 Let's turn now to Frederic Verrie from the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.
37:57 Frederic, we were speaking about the issues earlier about climate change.
38:01 You mentioned deforestation, the particular problem that that would have, how that would
38:04 have added to what has happened.
38:06 I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on what happens next, because clearly at some
38:11 point people will come to terms with what has happened with the devastation.
38:15 Those who've lost their lives hopefully will have some kind of proper burial, some kind
38:20 of laying to rest.
38:21 But then the reconstruction starts.
38:23 How does that begin?
38:25 Well, that's a big question, Mark, in part because of the political issues I mentioned
38:30 in eastern Libya with the way General Heftar has viewed this town and the problems.
38:35 And so, again, the purely technical issues, as was mentioned by your guest from Tripoli
38:42 about getting access, that's compounded by all these political factors.
38:47 And so, of course, there needs to be reconstruction for that town.
38:50 But I do want to address the broader issue of what next in terms of climate change.
38:55 Libya is, I don't know if I would call it a developing or poor nation, it's an incredibly
38:59 rich nation with oil.
39:01 And it actually has one of the highest per capita carbon emission rates in the world.
39:06 It is on par with industrial countries in Europe and Asia.
39:10 And so it's a gas, oil-producing country.
39:12 So the problem is not the absence of money, it's how that money is used.
39:17 And I was in Libya this summer looking at climate change.
39:20 And the problem is the government has been totally paralyzed, you know, totally incapacitated,
39:25 is totally ignorant of moving forward on climate change.
39:29 It's one of the least prepared countries in the world for climate change.
39:33 Of all the signatories of the Paris Accord, it is the only one that has not submitted
39:38 a roadmap for climate adaptation.
39:41 And so, again, circling back to the political will of Libya's ruling class, they need to
39:47 learn from this horrible tragedy and change the way they're doing business, you know,
39:52 not just on climate change, but again, as I've mentioned, on meeting the needs of the
39:57 people.
39:58 And this is about the legacy of a civil war.
40:02 Is that essentially what you're saying?
40:04 Correct.
40:05 Again, over a decade of civil war, we certainly have to factor in the international dimension
40:11 here.
40:12 There have been countries that have been fueling the conflict, sending in arms, backing factions
40:17 to include the countries that are helping right now.
40:19 Again, Turkey, Egypt, the UAE.
40:21 Of course, the United States and Europe bear a large degree of the blame for the intervention
40:27 in 2011 and the aftermath, but we also have to pin the blame on this dictator that ruled
40:32 Gaddafi for over 40 years, Muammar Gaddafi, who you were seeing the infrastructural rot
40:39 right now in Libya in towns like Derna.
40:42 Derna was historically neglected by Gaddafi, again, for political reasons.
40:46 So we're going to be living with this legacy, you know, for a long time.
40:50 It's going to be difficult to overcome, but Libya's elites need to act now.
40:54 It's going to be quite a leap, is what I'm hearing from you, to get Libya to move from
41:00 where it was under Gaddafi to where it is now, to where it needs to be.
41:04 Correct.
41:06 But again, not to be nostalgic, but even under Gaddafi, it was not that great.
41:10 I mean, I was in Tripoli under Gaddafi and you had massive problems with flooding in
41:15 the capital, right?
41:16 I mean, poorly constructed cities.
41:18 Again, this comes down to in part, you know, corruption, just poor urban planning.
41:23 And so, again, the problem is momentous.
41:27 It goes back to Gaddafi.
41:28 And as you said, it's going to take some quite a long time to overcome.
41:33 Thank you very much indeed for joining us for this special program dedicated to the
41:36 situation in Libya.
41:37 That's Frederic Vary, Senior Fellow in the Middle East Program at the Carnegie Endowment
41:41 for International Peace.
41:43 Thank you, sir, for joining us.
41:44 Thank you to Gouma Elgamati from the Taghia party.
41:47 Thank you to our correspondents in Ankara.
41:49 That's Jasper Mortimer and in Cairo, Edouard Cousin.
41:52 And thank you to, here in the studio, our environmental commentator, Valeria de Kim.
41:56 Thank you for that essential briefing on what is Storm Daniel, why it's happened, and why
42:01 it's had such a devastating effect on Libya.
42:04 We of course will continue here at France 24 to bring you up to date with all developments
42:08 on the situation across the country and of course with the further transit of Storm Daniel
42:14 across the North African coast.
42:16 Do stay with us.
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