00:00 talk a bit more about the geopolitics of this war.
00:03 Ketavan Gordostani, our foreign editor, is with me.
00:05 And Ketavan, as I mentioned earlier,
00:08 there are growing public tensions now
00:11 between the White House and the Netanyahu government.
00:13 This after Biden used the word indiscriminate
00:16 to describe Israeli attacks on Gaza.
00:19 Tell us a bit more.
00:20 - Well, the word that you used is the most important,
00:23 public comments that show this rift,
00:27 because there have been tensions for weeks now
00:30 between the two administrations,
00:32 but they've really been kept behind closed doors,
00:36 if you will.
00:37 And now you've seen this escalation
00:39 with Joe Biden's comments that he made at a campaign event.
00:43 And he was talking about the fact that Israel
00:48 still enjoys support in much of the world,
00:51 but he said they are starting to lose that support
00:54 by the indiscriminate bombing that is taking place.
00:58 And those comments were really the most public criticism
01:02 made by the US president towards Benjamin Netanyahu
01:06 and his government.
01:08 He had some harsh words for that government too.
01:10 He said that some people in that government
01:14 really did not want to have anything to do
01:16 with a possible two-state solution.
01:18 And that in itself was a problem.
01:21 He did reiterate that the US was standing firm
01:23 behind Israel, that its commitment to Israel was unshakable,
01:26 but you're seeing more and more of these statements
01:29 criticizing the way Israel is behaving in Gaza,
01:33 the way it's carrying these military operations.
01:36 And you're seeing increasingly comments by the Israelis
01:39 responding to these attacks.
01:41 For example, Benjamin Netanyahu rejected some of the plans
01:46 or the ideas that the US has put forward
01:49 for what happens once the war is over,
01:52 once Israel beats Hamas when it comes to, for example,
01:56 the role of the Palestinian Authority in Gaza.
01:59 Netanyahu saying, "I will not allow Israel
02:01 "to repeat the mistake of Oslo,"
02:04 referring to the Oslo Accords that were the origin, really,
02:08 of that power of the Palestinian Authority.
02:12 So he rejected that.
02:14 About the support for the ongoing military operation,
02:19 the foreign minister said that Israel would continue
02:21 with or without international support.
02:24 So you're seeing, really, this tit-for-tat
02:26 between the leadership of the two countries,
02:29 and now you're going to see Jake Sullivan,
02:31 the national security advisor, traveling to Israel.
02:35 And there are reports that he is going to push
02:37 for the opening of another border crossing,
02:40 and possibly to push for the military operations
02:44 to be wrapped in just a few weeks.
02:46 - And Ketavan, we do talk a lot
02:47 about the US-Israeli relationship,
02:51 because clearly the US is Israel's most important ally,
02:54 but I'm interested in what you think
02:56 of other important players on the world stage,
02:58 like the European Union, for example.
03:00 How would you analyze how much support Israel has
03:03 in European capitals right now?
03:05 - Well, this latest UN vote showed one thing,
03:09 is that support within the European Union is waning.
03:14 'Cause if you look at the results,
03:17 among the European Union members,
03:19 two voted against, Austria and the Czech Republic,
03:22 eight abstained, including, for example,
03:24 Germany and Hungary, and 17 members voted
03:29 in favor of that ceasefire.
03:32 Last time, 15 members had voted to abstain,
03:36 and only eight had voted in favor.
03:40 So you're seeing a little bit of a shift there
03:42 among European Union members.
03:46 But the EU really is deeply divided,
03:48 and that is why it is hard to hear a sort of united voice
03:53 and sort of decipher an official position
03:57 of the European Union when it comes
03:59 to what is happening in Gaza.
04:02 And those deep divisions are based in part by history.
04:06 You have, for example, Germany, Austria,
04:09 for obvious historical reason,
04:11 who are firmly behind Israel,
04:14 but also countries like Ireland,
04:16 who for their own historical reason,
04:18 have a sort of kinship with the plight
04:21 of the Palestinians in Gaza.
04:23 But you also have other countries now
04:25 who are coming out in full force to,
04:28 for example, the Belgians,
04:30 calling for the Belgian government
04:32 to impose sanctions on Israel
04:34 for their indiscriminate bombing in Gaza.
04:37 And you also have politics at play,
04:39 domestic politics at play,
04:41 the right-wing populism in Europe,
04:43 that has a sort of kinship with the Netanyahu government.
04:48 And all of that is making it hard for the European Union
04:51 to have a big voice on that matter
04:55 and to be heard and listened to by the Israelis.
