00:00What's that?
00:02I'm just not – you know, Said, I never make predictions.
00:04No, I'm sorry. I was kind of momentarily stunned by your original answer, so I
00:07forgot my question. But these will be brief. So are you okay, then, with the
00:13application for arrest warrants against Hamas?
00:15We do not believe that they have jurisdiction over either of the parties of this conflict,
00:19and that includes Hamas.
00:20So you don't think that Hamas – you don't think that Hamas leaders should be prosecuted?
00:23We absolutely believe that Hamas should be held accountable. That could be – hold on,
00:26let me finish. That could be either through the prosecution of the war effort by Israel. It could
00:30be – hold on.
00:31In other words, then being killed?
00:33It could be by being killed. It could be by being brought to justice in an Israeli court.
00:39We do not believe the ICC has jurisdiction over either of the parties in this case
00:43because the Palestinian people do not represent a state.
00:45Okay.
00:45And that includes the leaders of Hamas.
00:47But obviously, the administration is also troubled by actions that Israel has taken
00:51post-October 7th. So where is the accountability for that? Where do the Palestinians go? This is
00:57a question I asked Matt – I mean, Ned, a long time ago, over and over and over again.
01:03Where do the Palestinians go to seek redress?
01:07So let me answer this a couple of different ways. First of all, in the short term,
01:11with respect to questions of war crimes, Israel does have open investigations,
01:16a number of open investigations. We made this public when we released our report on
01:21National Security Memo 20, including some investigations that have become criminal
01:25investigations into conduct by members of the IDF. That is the first instance for judging
01:31whether someone has committed a war crime or a violation of IDF code of conduct.
01:37That's one of the reasons why we have concerns about the ICC. The ICC is set up to be a court
01:41of last resort. If a country isn't properly holding itself and its personnel accountable,
01:46that's when the ICC comes in, not in the middle of the process, as they have done here.
01:51That said, ultimately – and you know this, Matt, because we've spoken about it a lot – we believe
01:56that there should be the establishment of an independent Palestinian state,
02:00and an independent Palestinian state would have the ability to join the Rome Statute and
02:04become a member of the International Criminal Court, as every state in the world has the right
02:10to do. But that's – but that's – but that is not – but that is not –
02:12But until then, they're SOL?
02:13That is not – no, no.
02:15So where do they go in the meantime?
02:16They are not SOL. I said, first of all, Israel has its own investigation. Second, we have
02:21accountability mechanisms here. We have processes that are ongoing to look at Israel's compliance
02:25with international humanitarian law. So there are places to look at these questions. It's just,
02:30in our view, fundamentally not a role of the ICC. And I should say – but remember,
02:37we have a jurisdictional complaint here, in that we don't believe the ICC has jurisdiction. But
02:42if you looked at the statement the Secretary made that I echoed in my opening remarks,
02:46that isn't our only problem with the action the prosecutor has taken. We also have a problem
02:50that he has short-circuited an investigation and brought this action without waiting to see where
02:57these Israeli investigations end up, without completing the trip that he had planned to come
03:01to Israel to look into these questions. So it's not just a question of jurisdiction, it's also
03:05a question of the way the investigation is being conducted.
03:07So let's just focus on jurisdiction for a second. Who does have jurisdiction here?
03:10So the Government of Israel has jurisdiction.
03:13Over the occupied territory.
03:14We have jurisdiction.
03:15Over Gaza, which is not entirely occupied.
03:17We have – they have jurisdiction into looking at the actions by their military personnel.
03:21Okay. So the Palestinians, if they have a complaint, they have to bring it to Israeli courts.
03:24We have jurisdiction, and we –
03:26You have jurisdiction?
03:27With the use of our equipment.
03:28I'm sorry. How do you have jurisdiction?
03:30With the use of our military equipment that we have provided.
03:32Matt, how do you have jurisdiction?
03:33If you look at the Leahy law, if you look at —
03:35Look, that's not jurisdiction in a criminal process. That's jurisdiction over —
03:38Not in a criminal process, but it has to do with the determinations that we make
03:42and the policies that flow from it.
03:43But that's not jurisdiction.
03:44But Matt, long term, you were right that we want to see —
03:46You used to work for DOJ, Matt. Come on. There's no – the U.S. does not have jurisdiction.
03:51There are different – I wasn't referring to criminal jurisdiction, Matt.
03:53There are different ways to look at this.
03:54Long term, we agree with you that the Palestinian people should be a state that has the – and
03:58have the ability to make these determinations, but that's not where we are today.
04:01That's where we're trying to get to.
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