- 2 years ago
János Bóka tells Euronews that Europe needs to maintain "some kind of relationship" with Moscow if it is to safeguard itself.
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00:00The war in Ukraine, Russia, China, the rule of law, many issues have been dividing Hungary
00:06from the rest of the European Union.
00:09And Hungary has just taken over this July the presidency of the European Union.
00:15What kind of presidency will it be?
00:18We ask these questions to the Minister of European Affairs of Hungary, Janos Boka.
00:28Minister Janos Boka, welcome to Euronews.
00:31Let me ask you as a first question, is Russia an existential threat for the interest of
00:39the European Union, of Europe and for its security?
00:44Or do you think that there are diverging interests that can be appeased or resolved through other
00:53means like diplomatic means, political means?
00:57I think that in a sustainable European security architecture, Europe needs to have some kind
01:07of a relationship with Russia.
01:09So if we're willing to build sustainable security architecture for decades to come, somehow
01:17the relationship between Europe and Russia needs to be devised.
01:22But don't you think that establishing clear red lines with Russia, it's part of constructing
01:30this architecture, security architecture we are talking about?
01:35We, just like all member states of the European Union, believe that we need to fully support
01:42the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine.
01:45I think this is beyond question.
01:48And I also believe that a sustainable security architecture is not possible without engaging
01:55Russia through diplomatic channels, with the view to create a sustainable security architecture
02:00for Europe.
02:01And I think that we are not there yet.
02:05But I think the prerequisites for this kind of engagement need to be created at some point.
02:10But at the same time, there were criticisms coming from the EU partner and NATO partner
02:20as well of Hungary for this initiative that was taken by Budapest by the Prime Minister
02:27Viktor Orban to travel both to Moscow and Beijing.
02:33Was this an initiative that was taken as a formal part of EU presidency of the European
02:40Union by Hungary, or was it an individual initiative of the Prime Minister that was
02:46not discussed previously with the partners?
02:51This was an individual initiative of the Prime Minister of Hungary.
02:55He made it clear on a number of occasions that he does not negotiate on behalf of the
03:00European Union because he does not have the competence or the mandate to do so.
03:05He also made it clear that his objective is not to present solutions or not to make new
03:13initiatives, but to go on a fact-finding mission and clarify certain issues.
03:19And after each and every meeting, he briefed the president of the European Council and
03:25the heads of state of the governments of the member states of the European Union.
03:29Don't you think that, for instance, showing the videos of these trips with the logo of
03:37Hungarian presidency of the European Union, especially after what happened two days ago
03:42in Kiev with that terrible bombing of a pediatric hospital, was a little bit embarrassing both
03:50for Hungary and for the European Union?
03:55The Kiev bombings is horrible.
03:58It's terrible.
03:59And I think that the loss of human life and damage that has been caused in this war, that
04:09suffered during this war, just underscores the importance of the peace mission of the
04:15Prime Minister of Hungary.
04:16But don't you think there is a lack, a kind of lack of respect by Putin, by President
04:23Vladimir Putin?
04:25Just after, say, 48 hours, three days after the meeting with the Prime Minister of Hungary,
04:33he unleashed a very tough attack on the capital of Ukraine.
04:39Let's not forget that Russia and Ukraine, they are at war.
04:46And I don't expect that the parties that are conducting active hostilities will constrain
04:52themselves.
04:53What we expect from these trips is to provide additional information and input to the decision-making
04:58process of the European Union, where we will be able to find a ceasefire that would allow
05:05substantial peace talks to be conducted.
05:07What are the bases for this ceasefire?
05:11This is what the Prime Minister wanted to find out during these trips, whether there
05:15is any willingness on behalf of the parties, and how the European institutions could be
05:23helpful, could be of assistance, of finding a just and sustainable way out of this military
05:31conflict.
05:32Yes, but we know that there are divergences and differences between Budapest and the rest
05:37of the European Union when it comes to support the army of Ukraine.
05:44This is a correct interpretation.
05:46Quite a few member states believe that our strategic objectives could be reached by military
05:52means on the battlefield.
05:55The intention of the Prime Minister was to provide additional information and clarification
06:00that could feed into these discussions.
06:02Don't you think that there is a kind of inconsistency in the fact that the aim is to establish a
06:09kind of permanent security architecture, as you say, on the basis of a fire line and
06:18of a frozen conflict, basically, in the heart of Europe?
06:21Is that what you call permanent security architecture?
06:27Well, the shaping of a permanent security architecture is not Hungary's responsibility.
06:34But I think we can all agree that if there are active military hostilities between Russia
06:38and Ukraine, this is not a sustainable basis for any future security architecture in Europe.
06:45Somehow this military conflict needs to be ended and this would provide any basis for
06:50discussion for the future security architecture.
06:52NATO leaders have convened to supply Ukraine with no weaponary systems.
07:00Do you agree with this?
07:02Well, Hungary took the decision from the very beginning of this conflict to provide wide-ranging
07:09assistance to Ukraine, including humanitarian assistance, including energy supply, and in
07:17a number of different areas.
07:18But we decided not to provide military assistance directly or indirectly to Ukraine in a way
07:24that can be used to project a deadly force.
07:29Yeah, but it's in contradiction with the decision of a council that is to provide Ukraine and
07:37to, as you said before, the goal is to give Ukraine the strategic tools to defend itself
07:43by the use of force from a military point of view.
07:47I don't see a fundamental contradiction here.
07:52What I think the decision is to provide the wide-ranging support to Ukraine in line with
07:59the security and defence policy and the interests of each and every member state.
08:04This is the decision that the, at least that the European Union has been taken, and I think
08:09this is also in line with NATO commitments.
08:12We never disputed the right of member states to support Ukraine in other ways that we do.
08:18But you are hindering anyway the supplies, the weapons supplies to Ukraine.
08:24We provide support to Ukraine in line with our security and defence strategy and evaluation.
08:30So you have a divergent concept of security when it comes to your country that is to be
08:38respected and legitimate, of course, but we have to state that there is a divergent concept
08:46of security for Hungary vis-à-vis NATO and vis-à-vis the European Union, the other partners.
08:54I think it's more accurate to say that allies in NATO and partners in the European Union
09:00have a field of interpretation which is the basis of providing support to Ukraine, and
09:10Hungary is well within this accepted field of interpretation when it comes to security
09:15and defence interests of Europe and the transatlantic alliance.
09:19Will you continue to block the European peace facility?
09:23The European peace facility is a very complex issue, and the question is not whether it's
09:31blocked or not blocked.
09:33The question is how the European peace facility could contribute to promoting the security
09:42interests of the European Union.
09:44And there are a number of issues that are open here.
09:47For example, the agreement among G7 member states on providing a loan that could also
09:55be used for purchasing military equipment and to channel this through the European peace
09:59facility opened a number of questions related to the European peace facility.
10:03Our position is that all these issues need to be cleared, and then we finally need to
10:07take a political decision on the future of the European peace facility in general.
10:11The goal is clear, is whether to give this money to the Ukrainians to reimburse the military
10:18spending or not.
10:20So this is basically the dilemma.
10:24So where is the complexity apart from the structure and the wording maybe of a peace
10:32facility mechanism?
10:35I think that the complexity and the strategic lack of clarity on the function of the EPF
10:43is quite clear from the beginning.
10:45I remember the first discussion when there was a tentative sum how much military aid
10:50should be provided to Ukraine, and then this sum has been increasing constantly and giving
10:55very divergent numbers and ways of financing.
10:58You are also against the use of frozen assets, of Russian frozen assets, of a profit coming
11:03from Russian frozen assets, and you are still.
11:06Don't you think that after the attacks that we have seen recently in Kiev and in Ukraine
11:12is the moment to change the policy?
11:15The only question we have, whether the European peace facility is the best vehicle through
11:19which this money could be channeled to Ukraine.
11:22This is the question we have, and this also relates to the future of the European peace
11:25facility in general.
11:27Will the presentation of Make Europe Great Again agenda by Prime Minister Viktor Orban
11:34at the European Parliament take place or not?
11:38The Prime Minister is ready to go to the European Parliament at the time that is convenient
11:42for the European Parliament.
11:44We have not received such an invitation from the European Parliament yet, but if and when
11:49we receive this invitation, the Prime Minister is ready and willing to go.
11:52But don't you think that it's a little bit uncommon that you don't receive this invitation,
11:58that the government that has just taken over the presidency of the European Union has not
12:02received such an invitation by the European Parliament, by the way it's part of a protocol?
12:09I would stop short of seeing any political intricacies here.
12:16What I know is that the European Parliament will have its first plenary session next week.
12:21Usually the European Parliament at the time of the institutional transition has two plenary
12:26sessions in July, and in this case the invitation usually goes for the second July plenary session.
12:32This time the European Parliament has only one plenary session in July.
12:35But the Hungarian presidency was scheduled since a long time.
12:38I think this question should be posed to the European Parliament.
12:42I believe that this is only a scheduling issue.
12:46I certainly don't believe that the European Parliament is not interested in sincere cooperation
12:50between the institutions during the Hungarian presidency.
12:53Do you think that these six months will be the occasion for Hungary to, say, resolve
13:01this pending issue with the European Union concerning the rule of law?
13:08I've been engaged on behalf of the Hungarian government since 2018 in different procedures
13:16to cooperate with the institutions and settle outstanding political issues and concerns.
13:22The Hungarian government has been ready to do that on a constructive basis, and the Hungarian
13:26government is still ready to do this during, before and after the presidency.
13:32I don't see that the presidency has a special impact on this kind of relationship and the
13:37procedures.
13:38Yeah, but it's politically embarrassing, don't you agree?
13:41The fact of having a pending issue concerning the rule of law, that it's a core of European
13:45Union treaties.
13:46Well, I think the question is not about embarrassment.
13:51The question is why we are in this situation and whether there is a political and technical
13:57way out.
13:58I believe that there is a way out.
14:00This is what the Hungarian government has been working on in the spirit of constructiveness
14:05and cooperation with the institutions, and this we will continue to do.
14:09Are the Article VII and the source of the Article VII, the Charter of Fundamental Rights
14:15of the European Union, a kind of violation of the national sovereignty of EU countries
14:22and of Hungary, of course?
14:24When we joined the European Union, we made an evaluation whether the treaties are compatible
14:33with the Hungarian constitutional system, and this evaluation has been redone when we
14:38adopted the fundamental law of Hungary that is the constitution of the country now.
14:43I believe that there is no fundamental or inherent constitutional conflict between the
14:52fundamental law of Hungary and the treaties as such.
14:56Of course, the institutions are adopting decisions based on these treaties.
15:02The question whether there is constitutional conflict between these decisions and the Hungarian
15:06fundamental law, this is something that needs to be examined on a case-by-case basis.
15:10Aren't you afraid of the possible suspension of voting rights at the Council?
15:19I am.
15:20To be afraid?
15:21Well, I'm not afraid of such decisions.
15:25From time to time, there are initiatives or there is communication along these lines.
15:34I hope that at the end of the day, we will find a way to cooperate with member states
15:39and institutions for the common interests of Europe.
15:44On the enlargement, do you share the views of the European Union, for instance?
15:50I believe that the approach of the European Union is that enlargement is an objective
15:55and merit-based process, and this I fully subscribe to.
16:00Also for Ukraine, as a fast track, for instance, for Ukraine?
16:03I think that enlargement should be an objective and merit-based process for all.
16:08So you think that basically South-East Europe, Western Balkans have the priority on Ukraine?
16:18Nobody has the priority in an objective and merit-based process.
16:21That's the bottom line of the objective and merit-based process, that there are no political
16:24priorities.
16:25Objective and merit, but do you think that the European Union has the capacity to welcome
16:30Ukraine as a fast track?
16:33Not only based on merit.
16:37That's another question.
16:38I mean, if I look at the size, the population, the political and military situation in Ukraine,
16:46it would be very difficult to say that Ukraine is now ready to join the European Union, or
16:53we are in a position to say by any rational margin when Ukraine will be ready to join
17:00the European Union.
17:01In terms of capacity by the European Union, it's much easier to open the gates to the
17:06Western Balkan countries.
17:08If I look at the level of their preparedness, if I look at the social and economic impact
17:13of their accession, this is considerably smaller than that of Ukraine.
17:19The same goes for Serbia, despite the non-alignment to the EU sanctions on Russia, for instance.
17:27That's a political question, and if I speak of enlargement being an objective and merit-based
17:31process, this also means that the European Union also conforms to the negotiating framework
17:36that we adopted together with the candidate countries.
17:39And this negotiating framework clearly states that the countries should be fully aligned
17:43to CFSP at the time of their accession.
17:46So when we formulate political requirements that full alignment should be brought forward,
17:50then we do this outside the framework of the negotiations.
17:54The core of your agenda for these six months is the competitiveness.
17:58To the eyes of many countries of the European Union, especially the bigger countries of
18:02the European Union, their industrialization of Europe is the main goal, and stopping the
18:09outsourcing, and also imposing tariffs on China manufacturing, especially when it comes
18:17to the Green Deal, say, economies.
18:22Hungary has a different position on this issue.
18:26I don't see the difference here.
18:28What I see is increasing Chinese investment of Europe, which goes against the industrialization.
18:34This is the green re-industrialization of Europe that we do in economic cooperation
18:39with China.
18:41And I also see that now the supply chains of European and Chinese companies are so complex
18:47and intertwined that by increasing Chinese investment in Europe, for example, in areas
18:53where China is clearly the global leader in some industries, including green technology,
18:59this benefits both European and Chinese economic actors.
19:02So this contributes to the green transition, and this contributes to the re-industrialization
19:07of Europe.
19:08I don't see a strategic difference in objectives here.
19:11Do you think that it was a mistake signing free trade agreements with China for the European
19:17Union and for some European Union countries?
19:20I think that, to a large part, the global prosperity that we enjoy now, including European
19:26prosperity, was the product of engaging China, including the membership of China in the WTO
19:36and engaging in economic and trade relations with China.
19:40And if we dismantle this relationship, then the global prosperity, welfare of Europe and
19:49also of other economic partners will feel the consequences.
19:54Thank you, Minister.
19:55Thank you very much.
19:56Thank you for having me.
19:57Thank you very much.