00:00Thank you, Chairman.
00:02Thank you for being here.
00:03I appreciate it.
00:04I want to talk to you about surveillance and the Internet of Things.
00:10As you know, the PRC is exporting facial recognition, AI technology, enabling repression from Ecuador
00:19to Kenya to Pakistan.
00:20This has huge implications.
00:21And I think this is one of the spaces where they are quietly building partnerships for
00:27surveillance and controlling the domestic political situation.
00:33And it's not obvious to me what the tools are in our toolkit to provide an alternative.
00:38It's not like we're going to say, hey, use our company for AI and surveillance and repression.
00:44But this is an area of expansion, both economic and political, for the PRC.
00:49And I'm wondering how you see it and what we should be doing about it.
00:53So for a while, Senator Strzok, first of all, thank you.
00:57I appreciate the question.
00:59There was a big debate, does China have a model of development or a model of governance
01:07that they are promoting that's comparable to their own?
01:13And lots of debates about that for years.
01:16But now it becomes clear that there are certain ingredients to authoritarian leadership that
01:23they are promoting in a variety of the countries.
01:26You mentioned several, but I'd add others, the Solomons, frankly, elements in Afghanistan.
01:32And as part of that is that they often support a vulnerable elite who is in power.
01:39They provide assistance to that leading group and the people around it.
01:44They provide Praetorian support that allow them through police and others to be protected
01:53from domestic threats.
01:55And they provide technological capacities for...
02:00So the bad news is that's a pretty good value proposition.
02:04So what do we do about it?
02:06And I'll get it.
02:07The value proposition is that we have to be purposeful about recognizing how challenging
02:14it is to make the argument about white democratic institutions, elections, free and fair elections,
02:23and support to governments that emerge through that process.
02:27A lot of times, I'll give you a classic example.
02:31We have a new leader in Senegal, right?
02:35Extremely hopeful.
02:36But he's raised expectations.
02:38And now we're going to have to see whether we can help meet them as he goes against both
02:44forces in his own countries and others that would seek to advance this authoritarian model.
02:52And so, look, I can't tell you, Senator, that there's a perfect answer to every situation.
03:00But I will tell you, I've been to many of these countries, and that model is often domestically
03:06extremely unpopular.
03:09And if we are able to work with key groups in various countries, we can put up an effective
03:17challenge.
03:18I think it's two things.
03:19First of all, you're right.
03:20It's unpopular.
03:21But a lot of times, it's a trap.
03:23And it takes some amount of time for the leader to figure out that it's a trap, that they
03:28are going to be under the thumb of a country overseas.
03:32And then they come back to us and are a little bit more willing to dialogue.
03:35Can I just, two things on that.
03:37That is exactly right.
03:38And I'll give you an example.
03:41When China negotiates these foreign basing, and they often initially describe them as
03:47just, oh, it's just a little, you know, kind of a little dock here.
03:52Before long, local authorities of host nations are unable to get on these bases.
03:57They're not able to actually control their own territory.
04:03That's number one.
04:04Number two, yes, the built and rolled has been substantial.
04:08But many of the processes that the Chinese used in terms of financing in particular,
04:14the bill is coming due in many of these countries.
04:17These were not gifts.
04:19And some of the concessional loans are substantial.
04:23And they have real interest payments.
04:24And the Chinese are not interested in renegotiating.
04:28We can use some of those to our advantage.
04:30So on Belt and Road, just a quick final question.
04:33It seems to me, I mean, look, we as a country started to be alert to Belt and Road.
04:40And I think it precipitated a lot of smart foreign policy actions.
04:45On the other hand, there's part of me that thinks that what China did was two things,
04:49right?
04:50Debt trap diplomacy and what you're talking about, but also just simply over promising.
04:55And I think we've got to get in the habit of talking about not Belt and Road as if it
04:59is some insurmountable perfect strategy, but a little bit of an overextension of political,
05:05like an overreach here that we can take advantage of.
05:08I agree with that.
05:10Senator Shaheen.
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