00:00Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thanks so much for being here, and I always appreciate your
00:05understanding of these issues and frankness. At your confirmation hearing, we talked about the
00:11situation of inviting China into the peace process for Ukraine, and you expressed your
00:20agreement with me that this wasn't a good idea, which is an understatement. In the meantime,
00:25the State Department officials have told this committee that China must be at the table.
00:29I'm assuming, like a lot of things, there isn't complete agreement, but help me understand this.
00:35Where are we on this, and how hard are we going to have to push to get this done right? It seems
00:40that our European partners get this, and for whatever reason,
00:44the place where you work doesn't seem to get this, so help me out.
00:50Thank you, Senator. To be honest, I'm not aware of those consultations that you have had. I will
00:56tell you that I would generally say any kind of discussion like that is premature. The dominant
01:04arena of engagement is on the battlefield. I see no sign of Russians in any way easing up
01:12on their brutal offensives with Ukraine. If you signal too early your interest in
01:18getting to the negotiating table, I think it sends the wrong message,
01:23and it's a signal of weakness more generally. Ultimately, I had extensive discussions with
01:29your team about this. Senator, I must say I found those arguments quite persuasive.
01:37I am personally troubled by China's actions publicly stating that we're in favor of peace,
01:45we're not taking sides, but then privately providing the support for their industrial
01:52base in ways that will change the balance of military power, not just in Ukraine, Senator,
01:57but in Europe for decades to come. So I find those quite troubling. I think they have to be
02:03accounted for more directly. I believe the United States, with its key partners in Europe, have to
02:09play the dominant role if we find ourselves in a situation, which we hope for, that we can arrive
02:16at a just peace with Ukraine and Russia. We are nowhere near that right now, Senator, and so
02:23talk about what the nature of the table looks like and who's sitting around it. That's premature.
02:31Great thoughts. It seems to me that the Europeans and the rest of the world made a huge mistake
02:39with Russia over recent decades, thinking they were something that they weren't. And now the
02:44price is being paid for that. And I think the problem is there's some people making the same
02:50mistake right now with China, thinking that there's something that they're not. And your
02:55observation that that mistake could carry consequences that goes into generations,
03:00I agree with 100%. I think Europeans, because of their experience with Russia, are very,
03:07very reluctant to make the same mistake with China. And I think China hasn't helped either.
03:12You know, Europe's experience with the Lithuanians with China has really, really
03:18woken up the Europeans as to what they're dealing with as far as China is concerned.
03:23Look, Congress recently passed legislation on a bipartisan basis to sanction China for the
03:29oil purchases. And I'm not seeing, there was a lot of enthusiasm up here in the Hill for that.
03:35I'm not seeing the same enthusiasm for the administration, which isn't surprising because
03:40whenever we talk about sanctions, Treasury always pushes back to a degree, state always pushes back.
03:46We up here seem to be a little more ready to draw that weapon and use it. Your thoughts?
03:54Look, Senator, we've engaged on this quite a bit. I really understand and take your points to heart.
04:00I would point out, and I think you know it, you've heard it so many times of the
04:04hundreds of other sanctions that we have undertaken more directly.
04:10I do think, and I will just state clearly, that Iran is an implacable foe of the United States.
04:16We have to contest them everywhere, not just in the Middle East, not just with respect to the
04:24Houthis, but increasingly the role that they are also playing on the battlefields of Europe
04:30and Ukraine. So I take that very seriously. I understand the points. Sanctions policy,
04:37as you underscore, Senator, and you understand, are complex. There are often concerns about
04:43certain steps that you might take in a financial arena could have secondary, tertiary effects.
04:50I don't mean that as an excuse, but these are complex matters. I do think we have taken
04:56consequential steps, but I need to take back to the building a specific set of recommendations
05:02that you carry. I do also want to just point to something that you raised at the outset.
05:08You know, Europe has had two major challenges. One is the Russia energy and national security
05:16challenge. Many of these countries had hoped for a deeper economic and commercial relationship
05:21with China. I will tell you after substantial discussions, both in my previous job,
05:27Senator, and this job, Europeans understand the risks. They are coming around. We're working
05:33much more consequentially with them, not just on Russia, but China as well.
