00:00Let's talk now to David Dunn, who's Professor of International Politics at the University of Birmingham.
00:05Good to see you again, David. Welcome back.
00:07So let's talk about Tesla first. Musk has said he will stay in charge of this company,
00:11but as we were just hearing there, share prices dropped, people boycotting the brand.
00:15Being politically involved can be risky for a business leader, can't it?
00:20Yes, absolutely. And this is the clear case of that.
00:24Particularly the case when your product is attractive to one section of the electorate.
00:30In this case, it tends to be left-leaning people, environmentally concerned, who buy Teslas.
00:36And of course, they're the ones who've been outraged by the stances that Musk has taken on a variety of topics.
00:43And another aspect of that is that you can be involved politically,
00:47but actually, if you're so extreme as Musk has been, doing the Nazi salutes,
00:52supporting the AfD in Germany and the like, that is going to alienate large sections of the population.
01:01And of course, they're potentially buyers of your cars.
01:04So that's why we've seen the massive drop-off in sales in particular markets, in particular sectors.
01:10It's not just Tesla that he runs, of course. He's got other companies, including SpaceX,
01:14some of which work with the U.S. government.
01:16And this is really perhaps a potential conflict of interest when it comes to shaping government policy.
01:22Yes, and we've already seen legal action taken against him because of his oversight of the Federal Aviation Authority,
01:29at the same time as his Starlink company is trying to win contracts away from Verizon in that market.
01:37So there really is a very clear issue here of a conflict of interest,
01:42because his overall role as being in charge of the Department of Government Efficiency
01:48has a hand in every area of American government.
01:51And that's clearly a problem in terms of actually them being a conflict of interest.
01:58So he has this specific role, of course, but he's not the only billionaire who's influenced the government.
02:03Do you think there could be tougher regulation around this?
02:07Well, there are existing rules and regulations within the U.S. government.
02:12You're supposed to recuse yourself from any involvement where you have commercial interests.
02:17Well, that's clearly not happening.
02:19You're supposed to actually, if you do take a job in government,
02:22put all your investments into a blind trust and step down from being directly involved in businesses.
02:28And that hasn't happened either.
02:30And it's partly to do with the fact that this role is an anomalous one.
02:34It hasn't existed before.
02:36It sits in an odd position.
02:38It hasn't had any senator approval.
02:40But nevertheless, it is having a major impact.
02:43And therefore, it seems to be flouting existing regulations,
02:47which is why there have been legal action taken against him specifically to try and test this legally.
02:54But also, there have been calls for either for him to step down
02:59or for there to be new regulations that are meaningful
03:03and will stop him having these very obvious conflicts of interest.
03:07And he has himself hinted that he's actually struggling to run all of these companies,
03:11as well as this government, the Doge Department.
03:14Something has to give, perhaps.
03:17Yes, I mean, he has an enormous range of commitments.
03:22We haven't even talked about the fact that he's the CEO of Twitter or X
03:27and that he has various other businesses, other ones we've talked about.
03:33And he can't possibly do all those while at the same time being involved in the minutiae of government.
03:39And we have heard that he's been camping out, staying overnight in government departments
03:44so that he can work his famous 18-hour days in order to focus on the government efficiency.
03:50So he can't do all those things and keep a hand in the businesses that he owns or is involved with.
03:56And of course, that's partly why there is a concern among shareholders and Tesla
04:01and indeed the other businesses that actually they would like to see him step down from the government role
04:07to focus on his business, to recover the share price.
04:11And there's also great speculation, of course, that actually given how unpopular he is,
04:16that Trump may get rid of him sooner rather than later.
04:20And in fact, many people wonder how he survived so long,
04:24given the fact that he is such a lightning rod for concern in the Trump administration.
04:30Professor, great to talk to you as always. Thank you so much for coming back on the programme.
04:33That's Professor David Dunn from the University of Birmingham.
