00:00Do you want to tell me?
00:02I don't know, I don't know
00:09So viewers, today I have with me Charu Vali Khanna Ma'am.
00:13She is a human rights activist and she is also a former member of NCW National Commission for Women.
00:19Ma'am, thank you so much for speaking with Asianate News.
00:22You know, I am speaking with you at a time when we have seen the horrific incident which took place in Noida.
00:29You know, first of all because you are someone who have advocated for women's rights for so many years.
00:35What goes into your mind and heart when you see such kind of cases emerge again and again?
00:41See, the fact is that at one point of time we say that we are supposed to be following the constitution of India and we are in 2025.
00:51But there is a whole large section of our society which is really living in medieval times.
00:57And the law has absolutely no meaning for them.
01:00They have total disregard for the law.
01:03So to implement the law and to follow the law is a big challenge.
01:08But this challenge has to be undertaken by one, the police who is the implementing agency and secondly by the judiciary.
01:18But both are miserably failing in their task.
01:21Neither does the police arrest the culprit.
01:24It is so difficult for a girl who, you know, how much difficulty for her to speak out.
01:29Whether it is a case of sexual abuse, whether it is rape, there is always a stigma.
01:34Or you know, this kind of allegations of dowry.
01:37There is always a stigma.
01:39And for the girl to speak up and go to the police station, what do the police do?
01:43They do not register her.
01:46They do not register her complaint.
01:49And even with great difficulty, the complaint does get registered.
01:54The whole trial is so slow that it's very, all the witnesses start turning hostile.
02:00And the judiciary is totally collapsing because there is no, the laws may say time bound trial.
02:07But there is no time bound trial and judgments are reserved and delayed for months.
02:13So, I mean, this is a very, very sad reflection of her time of what is happening.
02:18You know what ma'am?
02:19You are talking about the judicial system and how crammed it is.
02:22Crores of crores of cases pending in our judiciary.
02:25Gram Panchayat members fail immensely.
02:28I mean, they do not even, forget about listening.
02:31They do not even pay heat to and actually try to dig in deep what exactly is happening in her house.
02:38Was she severely beaten earlier?
02:41What steps needs to be taken earlier?
02:43What do you think?
02:44I mean, how are these Gram Panchayats even functioning in India?
02:48Absolutely.
02:49I think it's really shameful because the girl was begging and pleading to her father.
02:55It was not that they were poor.
02:57They had the wherewithal.
02:59She was earning money.
03:00She was, she and her sister-in-law were running a parlor, but she was being brutally beaten.
03:05And she went back to her parents, not once, but twice.
03:09And what is the, what would a normal person who's concerned for the daughter?
03:15They would take the process of law, go to the police to file a complaint.
03:20Because even in cases like this, in family disputes, the police does not register an FIR.
03:26They have mediation proceedings which sometimes go on for six months.
03:30Even the courts, they ask for the parties to go for mediation.
03:34But these mediations are done within the purview of the law.
03:37And these mediation and counselling is done by professionals.
03:41But what did these people do?
03:43They went to the so-called kangaroo courts.
03:45You know, these honor crimes and these panchayats you tell.
03:50The problem is a problem of hierarchy and patriarchy.
03:54Patriarchy is shaking.
03:55And the girls and youngsters are no longer willing to listen to the elders.
04:00So what do they do?
04:01How do they impose their youth?
04:03They say girls should not have mobile phones.
04:06It corrupts them.
04:07Girls should not wear jeans.
04:09So they are trying to retain their power.
04:11And this is what they do.
04:13And according to, I heard one of the interviews of the father.
04:18He said on the 17th, that is like barely a week ago.
04:21The girl pleaded with him and said,
04:25Pana means give me shelter.
04:27I am willing to work, I am earning, I am doing everything.
04:30Because they were even taking away the earnings.
04:32But what did he do?
04:34He did nothing.
04:36And sending that girl back in that hell hole to be beaten,
04:40I think is the worst form of cruelty.
04:42In fact, I have consistently said in all the channels
04:46and whenever my opinion has been asked,
04:48because if you say dowry giving and taking is a crime,
04:51the parents who are indulging in this kind of crime,
04:54sending the girl back, not, you know,
04:57heat full of her emotions, her sentiments,
04:59they should be arrested.
05:01And what about these illegal kangaroo courts
05:04who are under the name of Panchayat?
05:06You see, they are misleading people.
05:08They are not the Gram Panchayats
05:09which are under the Panchayati Raj.
05:11which is a constitutional body.
05:14And they should also, those persons who gave this order
05:19that she should be sent back, let them be arrested.
05:22And then only will there be a fear on these things.
05:25Otherwise these things will just continue.
05:27Continues the tradition.
05:28And you know, this is just one case which happened in Noida.
05:31There are so many thousands of cases.
05:33I mean, I can, I'm pretty sure because you have worked for so many years in NCW,
05:37you yourself know the data is quite big.
05:40The data is staggering because the Dowry Prohibition Act was made in 1961.
05:46It was a very noble intent.
05:48We were in a different society.
05:50And according to that, the giving and taking of dowry is an offence in relation to marriage,
05:56except for gifts.
05:57And the gifts have to be registered.
05:59Now the word dowry is somehow giving it a cultural sanction.
06:03And in today's consumer world, I mean, can you stop people from giving things on their,
06:09they want to show off their wealth, girls say, I want this car, I want that car.
06:13In India, if you see the vehicle sales, the two-wheeler and the four-weeker vehicle sales,
06:19the maximum during the period where their weddings.
06:22There may be one wedding in Delhi for itself, in the five-star hotels,
06:27there's a special space allocated for the car to be wrapped in a ribbon.
06:31And if the wedding is held in a banquet hall, then a big car, a key, car key is made
06:37and brought in the train.
06:39So we are living, we can't stop this giving and taking.
06:42But what we can stop is extortion and violence.
06:46That's why I feel that this act needs to be renamed into married women,
06:50which meant cruelty and extortion.
06:53The dowry prohibition act, because the word dowry,
06:57somehow you know, you feel it's a cultural sanction.
07:00And even in the BMS, the new criminal law,
07:05it is in section 84 and 85, cruelty has been punished and defined.
07:12And you know, but who's bothered?
07:15That is the tragedy.
07:17For them, the law doesn't matter.
07:19If you've heard this girl's father's interviews,
07:21because he's giving left and right interviews everywhere,
07:24he's a very weak witness, very, very weak witness.
07:27And the only person who saw the child, the girl burning is the small child,
07:35who said that my father set her ablaze with a lighter.
07:39But you know, when the matter goes to court,
07:42we are all in this patriarchal mindset.
07:45And the boy himself has said that, you know,
07:48small niya vidi, that is husband wife fights are trivial issues.
07:53Why are you making a big deal about it?
07:55So the same thing the police say,
07:57when you go to the police station, they say,
07:59why are you making a big deal?
08:00They're small husband wives.
08:01The high court says that it's a wear and tear of marriage.
08:07And I've got cases not only from Delhi, Madras, Supreme Court.
08:12They say these are trivial matters.
08:14No, violence against women, beating, abuse is normalized,
08:21is being normalized.
08:23And that is why it is being repeated and repeated.
08:26And if you see that soon they'll say that the girl was three.
08:29She couldn't take the normal way of life and she committed suicide.
08:33And he'll be acquitted.
08:35He's going to get out, let me tell you, in the next two years,
08:39he'll be out and remarried and repeating the same thing.
08:43I think even during his interview,
08:46I could not see even the slightest of remorse on his face.
08:51He was clearly just, you know, fumbling,
08:53maybe because of fear that he'd have to go to jail for a couple of years.
08:57But apart from that, no remorse I could see on his face.
09:00It's as if he was like waiting for that moment to arrive.
09:02Okay, but I want to know from you, ma'am,
09:04do you think that we need to reduce the gap between these victims
09:08and those people who are actually working on ground to tackle this issue?
09:12Because, you know, as a woman myself, I may get feared because I'm a journalist.
09:16I'm pretty aware about things around me.
09:18But, you know, normal women in household,
09:22they don't generally, you know, walk up to police station to register their complaints.
09:26Do you think that there has to be some sort of an infrastructure in place
09:29so that these people can actually go ahead and register their complaints?
09:32Because this girl was crying in front of her father and he could not do anything.
09:37See, what we have in India, we have the best laws.
09:41That's what I said, but we sadly lack in their implementation.
09:45If you see the Dowry Prohibition Act in Section 8B,
09:48it has a provision for dowry prohibition officers.
09:52Because the legislatures are cognizant of the fact that there are some periods, you know,
09:59when marriages take place, which are considered auspicious periods,
10:03like akshay teach or child marriages take place.
10:06So there's a provision in the law for a dowry prohibition officer who is to be in the area,
10:13who is to see what is happening, who is to collect evidence, who is to help in the registering.
10:18But unfortunately, there's no dowry prohibition,
10:22independent dowry prohibition officer designated.
10:26Like there's no child marriage prohibition officer independent.
10:31Maybe there's some person, one officer who's got 50 charges.
10:35He's a domestic violence protection officer.
10:37He's the child marriage.
10:39I mean, it's impossible for him to work.
10:41So it's very important because it's only the ground level, like you very rightly said.
10:45At the ground level, if there's a person whom I can reach out to,
10:49it will be better and easier for me rather than going to the police station
10:53because there's certain fear about the police station and, you know, exploitation, etc, etc.
10:59In a country like India, we often talk about that, you know, women are going in space,
11:04doing this in, you know, a STEM field.
11:07But, you know, every now and then we face something which takes us back to so many years.
11:13So what do we actually do about it?
11:15Because this particular issue, I think it is more prevalent in rural areas.
11:20Do you not think that there has to be some sort of enforcement?
11:24Because, you know, child marriages, these child marriages are happening openly in villages.
11:29Why can't there be a proper enforcement?
11:32I mean, ED is there. ED goes and raids, you know.
11:36Why can't there be a team which can actually enforce these laws on ground,
11:41go to villages, visit there, arrest these people who are actually taking part,
11:45you know, making these small children get married to each other.
11:49Why can't we do anything to enforce it?
11:51Definitely, there is a political will and the system is in place.
11:56As per the law, there's nothing stopping them.
11:59But everyone has become so lax because I said violence against women is normalized.
12:05And they are there as vote banks.
12:08They are there as vote banks when, you know, you need to, as symbolic kind of,
12:14like we had two army officers were women who led the, you know, campaign against Pakistan.
12:22But what did some of the MLEs do?
12:24They were abusive.
12:26And even the Supreme Court had to take cognizance for them to apologize.
12:30So this is the kind of, you know, absolutely crude medieval mindset these people have.
12:35And unfortunately, our education system has totally failed us.
12:39Because rather than educate people, break the shackles of patriarchy, gender sensitization,
12:48concept of consent, these things, rather than teaching the children these things,
12:54they teach them, you know, very advanced concepts of maybe math, science, physics,
13:00and children aren't able to pass.
13:02So what happens?
13:03They fail.
13:04We have two, I mean, of course, you have the 10th class and the 12th class,
13:07but we have two other levels, fourth fail and eighth fail.
13:11And if you go on the road, you'll see what do these boys who are fourth fail and eighth fail do?
13:16They aimless, jobless, and they're just watching porn on the mobiles.
13:23If you see the statistics, the maximum number of pornographic sites,
13:29Google searched are from India.
13:33So what is that?
13:35From 4 to 14 is the very time when you need to teach the child that what is right,
13:40what is wrong and still the values, which our education system unfortunately has failed to do.
13:45The mindset, the pro women mindset also gets nurtured at an early age with the help of parents and people around you.
13:52I think we are failing big time because, you know, one generation becomes another and this tragedy will continue.
13:58Like this lucky boy who's been seeing his mother and aunt being beaten daily and then his mother burned.
14:05I mean, when he grows up, what is he going to do?
14:08He thinks it's wrong.
14:10Like his father said, it's okay.
14:12It's a trivial matter between husband and wife.
14:14Everyone is saying it.
14:15So they think there's nothing wrong.
14:17And the shocking part is this happened after so many years of the marriage.
14:21I mean, had it happened, I mean, definitely the crime could not have been more graver.
14:26But my point is, I mean, this happened after so many years of marriage.
14:30I mean, consistently this monster was living with her and maybe constantly, you know, pressurizing her.
14:36That's exactly what I'm saying.
14:38It's not about Dowling because you will not be able to link this case to Dowling.
14:41The prosecution will have a very weak case.
14:44It's about extortion.
14:45Yes.
14:46You've got your Scorpio, you've got your money, but that greed of wanting more and more.
14:51If someone is getting free money, these greedy monsters need to be, you know, set right.
14:57And rather than the parents of the girls saying that this is how it happens in our society.
15:02There's no answer.
15:04There's no answer.
15:05So we need to have proper dowry prohibition officers in the rural areas, in the villages, in the municipalities
15:13to spread the message, create the awareness.
15:16And then only will girls' lives be saved.
15:20All right.
15:21By the way.
15:22.
15:23.
15:24.
15:25.
15:26.
15:27.
15:29.
