00:00Stefan, welcome back to Incarabia.
00:03Andy, always a pleasure.
00:06So we've already discussed technology, design, and sustainability.
00:12Today is a topic that I feel close to the hearts of many people,
00:17especially people living in the Gulf who are expatriates or residents of the Gulf region.
00:22It is renovation, right?
00:25It's something that I'm sure we all have gone through.
00:27So renovation is a big theme across the region right now.
00:32What is driving this shift?
00:34And what are the homeowners really looking for when they start this endeavor?
00:40Actually, if you look at our industry, if you want to cut our industry in very simple pieces,
00:45it's basically new building, the renovation.
00:47And this is a big project, like a renovation of an airport or a hotel or a small like,
00:53then it's you and me renovating their bathrooms.
00:56And on the other hand, within this market, if you look at renovation, we see different cycles.
01:02So if you look at Europe, Europe has a cycle of renovating maybe every 15 to 20 years the bathroom.
01:08If you go to India, you're down to seven to five years.
01:11If you look in our region now, especially Dubai, you see a huge boom of renovation.
01:17That's driven basically by a couple of underlying, let's say, macro and micro, let's say, drivers.
01:24One is like you have a lot of off-plan.
01:26You have a lot of additional volume coming on the market.
01:29So that's all new built.
01:30It's all new.
01:31And we still have now an aging housing stock in the UAE.
01:36So that now also is driven to renovate because they have to keep up with the new stock that is
01:44coming on as well as ownership increased.
01:46So a lot of people who now own said, I don't like it anymore.
01:49I want to renovate.
01:51So this aging house stock and the pressure also for investors to renovate their older properties,
01:58to keep up with all the new and very nicely designed property, residential property that now actually comes on the
02:05market.
02:05If you go around Dubai, brings this pressure to renovate.
02:10I think we see it now for, and it's not new, it was always there, but we now really can
02:16see.
02:16And I think everybody who lives somewhere in a bit, an older community, you have at least two, three neighbors
02:21renovating.
02:23I mean, where I live now, they also renovate all the entry paths.
02:29They renovate all the parts of the building also now inside.
02:34So we can also now see the big developers and maintenance companies.
02:37They're not just renovating, they start also seeing that everybody renovates their own apartment.
02:44Now everything outside in the common area.
02:46So we see that trend ongoingly now and actually gaining very good momentum.
02:51And I can imagine specifically like kitchens and bathrooms, you know, we spend a lot of time in these places.
02:58So they become a point of attention.
03:01You had mentioned 15 years in Europe, seven years in India.
03:06What about our region and the Gulf region?
03:08It really depends.
03:09And that is quite interesting.
03:11If you're a homeowner, you really focus on different topics when you renovate.
03:15You focus on durability, really focus on quality.
03:19That is where GROE actually is coming in, as well as we have these more investor-oriented who say, okay,
03:26fine, I need something that is durable but not too expensive.
03:30That's also where we actually come in quite well.
03:32But I think a main issue or a main problem that we often see when you renovate your bathroom or
03:38your kitchen, you get a bit distracted by the shiny appearance of certain products.
03:44And you underestimate that actually after a couple of years or even months, it's not working anymore.
03:51Then you have an issue with service.
03:52You have an issue with spare parts.
03:54You have an issue that you maybe have leaks when you're on holiday or gone.
03:57So we see that one also as a major issue or problem all over when you actually renovate as a
04:04private person.
04:05What are some of the most common areas of difficulties for consumers renovating their bathrooms?
04:12And how can consumers avoid the most common mistakes that people tend to experience when they undergo bathroom renovations?
04:22So I said that renovation is not something you as a private person do regularly.
04:26So that's why it makes sense to work together with a certified showroom or installer.
04:33So we as Grohe in the region, we train installers regularly.
04:38So we train them in Saudi, for example.
04:40We have our own buses basically driving to the furthest corner of the kingdom to educate and train installers.
04:48We also have our showroom partners who really know how to install the product.
04:51So to help the end user or the consumer planning this endeavor, because it's always different.
04:58It's never the same.
04:59And you don't do it often as a, let's say, as a private user.
05:04In summary, so you need a partner or partners who help you with the planning.
05:10The second is what people often forget, especially when you own the place, you maybe want to retrofit later.
05:17And you don't want to rip out everything again.
05:19So what you put behind the wall, like a flushing system, concealed cistern, or a shower concealed, you need to
05:27have durability.
05:28You want to leave it there for the next, hopefully, 20, 30 years.
05:31But you must be able to change the trim set, the front where you basically have the handle.
05:36So can you change the handles?
05:38Are there new handle designs available?
05:40So that's interesting.
05:41And the last point, I think you must be installer friendly.
05:43Because the quality, the knowledge in the region of the installer is still very transient.
05:50And it must be easy to install to avoid mistakes, to avoid leaks, to maybe avoid at the later point
05:56that you have to open the wall again.
05:58So that is basically where the growing products are clearly leading in the region.
06:02That also shows a bit our success we're having.
06:05Absolutely.
06:05So, you know, in a definition, renovation doesn't really mean tearing down everything and starting from scratch again, right?
06:13How do you define smart renovation?
06:17So smart renovation is also seeing what's already in the wall.
06:22Because Grover as a brand and our products are for over 50 years in the region.
06:28And as the market leader, we have this huge installed base.
06:32So we often say, like, yeah, check first what's already in the wall.
06:36Maybe you can leave the wall and you can just change for the flushing system.
06:39For example, the flush plate.
06:40Or as I said, for the shower, the trim set.
06:42But smart renovation means also when you renovate, think ahead what you like to have.
06:47So, for example, in our new flushing system, we already have everything installed for a shower toilet.
06:54So shower toilet is something that we see as a big trend here next to the shutoff valve.
07:00Then also in the kitchen, we have smart is also having reverse osmosis, having filter systems that you basically improve
07:10the quality of your water.
07:12So there today, there are way more technologies and new ideas and trends that you really can improve the health
07:21and also the quality of water in your house.
07:25In a way, it's, you know, just like any project, you need to plan for it, right?
07:30And I think what you've just explained touches on the technology side, smart features, the sustainability side, and the design,
07:39right?
07:40And now when we're talking about renovation, it pulls everything together into one story.
07:45Which grow hay solutions are most relevant for renovation projects and specifically, you know, for this region?
07:53We have, I said, to differentiate between really a hard renovation, you rip everything out and replace it, or a
08:00soft renovation, where you simply do the faucet or the shower head.
08:04But if you're really opening the wall, it's very important, I said, to focus on the concealed product.
08:13So we have, I said, the concealed system.
08:15We also have our new shower frame that actually helps you to install everything you need for a shower renovation
08:23within 45 minutes.
08:24So the speed in the renovation, because you don't want to have your bathroom on the renovation for weeks, preferably
08:32for a couple of days.
08:33You put the concealed system parts, you put the tiling, and then basically put the trim set, put the faucet
08:39ceramics, and you're done.
08:40So with all these products, Growya has actually a clever solution that is fast and easy to install.
08:49And with the help of our showroom partners, and then also our trained and qualified partners here in the region,
08:57there's always a way to make it very quick and painless, as I would say.
09:02Because renovations, that's often a strain on the whole family.
09:05Absolutely.
09:06Absolutely.
09:06So how do you balance a design-led approach with durability?
09:14It's not always about the looks, but it's also about how durability is, specifically in our region, where sustainability, water
09:22are key issues for us.
09:25As Growya, we have various, let's say, solutions here for the region.
09:31I mentioned before the filters.
09:32So we now have showers where you really have, we call it aqua pure, where you push a button and
09:40it filters the water, because we know all the water quality here in the region is sometimes a bit not
09:46so optimal.
09:47So we have this filter technology, as I mentioned, but also something which is often forgotten.
09:53It's like when you try to have the right water temperature.
09:58It is always a bit of a hassle with the lever, you try to get it right.
10:02Too cold or too hot.
10:03Too cold or too hot.
10:04So the right Goldilocks position of that handle is always very hard to find.
10:08So we have this thermostat technology.
10:11It's actually a very old technology.
10:12But interestingly enough, in the whole Middle East, it's not very common.
10:17And what we saw that the customers who come to the showrooms, who like to renovate their apartment, also say,
10:27yeah, but what is this thermostat?
10:30What really helps that you have the right temperature and the right water, let's say, flow rate with the push
10:38of a button?
10:39So we have the smart control.
10:41We will also now launch the Groeterm Aquatiles, which is a new product.
10:45And there also how many outlets you want to have.
10:49Do you want to have two outlets for a hand shower and a head shower?
10:52Or do you want to have three outlets with a special spray in your head shower or even up to
10:56four or five?
10:57So there are different variances and different options now that you can really use very clever.
11:04And again, for this, then you need to plan how many shower outlets.
11:08Brings me back to what we discussed before.
11:09You need a partner who can really plan that and explain you the options and the possibilities.
11:15So I think here in this region, yes, it's durability, but it's also luxury.
11:18It's also really the investment that we have in these big bathrooms.
11:23The bathroom size here is way bigger than in other parts, let's say, for example, Europe.
11:30So we see there are a lot of opportunities here in the Middle East.
11:34So how do we ensure technology and smart technology does not complicate our lives?
11:42You know, where is this balance where technology doesn't become a burden on consumers?
11:48I think that the two things must be easy to use.
11:51It must be easy to maintain.
11:52And if you have an issue or you should have an issue, you need a partner who's really here.
11:57And I think that's where, yes, the technology, we often use new technologies.
12:02And then maybe we're not sure.
12:05And in the bathroom, I said once it's in, it's in.
12:07Or once in the kitchen, it's in.
12:09It is installed.
12:11So there is where we see the service component really.
12:15Okay, I maybe want to do a maintenance or I want to do an upgrade.
12:20What shall I do that you have a growing partner in your countries all across the region that can help.
12:27And we have this from Morocco to Egypt to South Africa.
12:30We basically have it all around the region, especially in our stronghold here, the GCC countries.
12:35We have within the same day, more or less, we can send you one of our service partners or even
12:43our own service people immediately to your home to check and support.
12:47So if I am to zoom back into our region and specifically the Saudi market, you know, consumers and developers
12:55are planning renovations.
12:57We're obviously watching all the growth that's happening in Saudi specifically.
13:02What does doing it right look like from a Grohe perspective and from Stefan's perspective?
13:09Saudi is, again, we discussed a couple of times Saudi in our last previous podcast.
13:16I think it's still a tremendous growth story there for construction.
13:22It's mainly new built.
13:24We have to be very clear.
13:26Also, the renovation there is more a full renovation.
13:29They take down the buildings and then rebuild the whole thing.
13:33So renovation is smaller.
13:34But what we're really trying to do is there, what made us also successful in the UAE, is the installed
13:43base.
13:44And having the support to renovate the installed base.
13:48Because also in Saudi, for example, in terms of flushing system, our position is so strong.
13:54Also in terms of faucet, the installed base is so strong.
13:57So if we talk about the faucet, you don't need to take out the whole faucet.
14:02Maybe you can just replace the lever.
14:04Maybe change the cartridge inside.
14:08And you're basically done.
14:09So you can do very small tweaks to the renovation there.
14:13But from our focus, clearly in Saudi for now, it's still mainly new built.
14:20Excellent.
14:21Thank you very much, Stefan.
14:22Always a pleasure having this conversation.
14:26I do have one last question for you.
14:30What's your favorite Grohe product?
14:32My favorite Grohe product?
14:35The smart control.
14:36I still love the smart control.
14:38Because you push the button, immediately you have the right water.
14:42You have the right temperature.
14:44It is by far my favorite product.
14:48Thank you, Stefan.
14:49Always a pleasure having you on board.
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