- 5 months ago
Grant & Danny debate whether or not trade talks for CJ Abrams will pause if the Nats keep contending.
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00:00About the Nats, who got a third straight win last night in 7 of 10.
00:04This is now bigger than just, oh, they're kind of a cute story.
00:07They're winning more than they lose.
00:09Yeah, they're 38-35, but this is the best record they've had in seven years.
00:14And you dig a little deeper and you see only three teams,
00:17the division-leading Braves, Dodgers, and Brewers,
00:19have better run differentials.
00:20So when you start to stack them up with the teams in the wild card,
00:24they beat the Padres in a series head-to-head.
00:26They beat the Cubs in a series head-to-head.
00:28They beat the Diamondbacks in a series head-to-head.
00:31They've had success against the Phillies in a series head-to-head.
00:34They beat the Cardinals in a series head-to-head.
00:36They have all the tiebreakers.
00:37They have the better run differential.
00:38They're actually a pretty decent team.
00:40They are indeed.
00:40You've got to give them credit for that.
00:41They played the hardest schedule in the sport,
00:43and they've come out of it, and they look like they belong.
00:46And so the new question we're asking is, first,
00:49your thoughts on sustainability, where neither of us are completely buying in
00:52that this is a team that will finish over .500, over .162.
00:55But maybe a better question should be, it's only six weeks from now
01:00when they've got to decide at the trade deadline how they're going to act.
01:03And you and I agree mostly on maybe making some very small changes
01:07without giving anything up that's a future asset.
01:10That's easy to do.
01:12That's an easy answer.
01:12Yep.
01:13Where you and I have disagreed is on C.J. Abrams,
01:15where it sounds like you're still willing to trade him,
01:17even if they're above .500, which I'm not,
01:19even if they're in the playoffs as a wild card team, which I'm not.
01:23So what would have to happen for you to take him off the market
01:26as a guy that you don't want to trade in season?
01:29Yeah, they're not catching the Braves.
01:30That's the best record in the National League,
01:32second-best record in baseball.
01:33So knocking down that nine-game gap I think is unrealistic.
01:38You take some out of it.
01:39To me, they'd have to look like a World Series contender.
01:42I follow the Ted Leonsis manifesto.
01:44If my team, as assembled, can compete for a championship,
01:47then act accordingly.
01:48If I can't, then I act accordingly as well.
01:50So a bunch of things that aren't possible, in my view,
01:53would have to happen.
01:54Myles Michaelis has to do another month of what he's just done
01:57his last couple of outings.
01:58I'm not talking about throwing zeros on the board for six innings.
02:00Nobody does that except Jacob Miserowski.
02:03But Zach Littell's got to look good.
02:04Jake Irvin has to come back and look sustainable.
02:07My bullpen has to pick it up in terms of their numbers.
02:10I need to look up in a month and not have the fifth-worst ERA in baseball.
02:14It's got to be middle of the pack with the arrow trending upwards mightily.
02:17Foster Griffin can't have any regression.
02:18Cade Cavalli can't be riding a wave going up and down with one start's
02:23excellent next start.
02:23He can't get out of the second inning.
02:25A bunch of things have to happen for me to then go, all right,
02:29this really is a championship team, not just a fun ride that we're all on.
02:33So they are not a championship team, and they can't become one this season
02:37to go full Anthony Davis on you, right, where he's like, yeah,
02:41it doesn't really happen overnight like that.
02:42Like, it takes some time.
02:43So if the goal is for you or the necessity is for you that they can win a World
02:49Series, like on paper, they look like a team that could make a deep October run.
02:54Even unlikely.
02:55Most teams, they make the playoffs.
02:56It's unlikely.
02:57The 2019 Nats didn't look like that team at this point necessarily,
03:00or the Braves the year after that or whatever.
03:03But, like, those teams at least were built World Series caliber.
03:05They had starting pitching.
03:06They had star power.
03:07They had studs.
03:08For different reasons, you know, the Nats got off to a terrible start.
03:11But I guess my point is the answer for you, to put words in your mouth if I could,
03:16is there's nothing they can do.
03:18Yeah, I said there's nothing reasonable they could do.
03:19Yeah, you've essentially decided that you're trading C.J. Abrams unless you're a
03:24World Series contender, to say it succinctly.
03:27And they're not one.
03:29Yeah, again, there's a lot of prerequisites.
03:31If I get an offer that supersedes the McKenzie Gore package, otherwise I'm in no hurry.
03:37Again, my thought isn't, oh my God, the clubhouse guys are going to have hurt feelings.
03:40My thought is, hey, this is a worthwhile thing to me to give some of these young kids
03:45experience playing meaningful games.
03:46I'll do that unless I get my socks blown off on an Abrams deal.
03:50And then I'll go ahead and act accordingly.
03:52That's all it is for me, is I have a chance to sell at the highest moment of the stock
03:58market,
03:58potentially, and cash out and make millions.
04:01I don't have to do that, though.
04:02I can also just keep riding the wave, to your point about the offseason or otherwise.
04:05If I don't get the offer, I'm not doing it.
04:06I mean, that to me is the essential part of it.
04:08And I don't know that I'll get the offer, but the Yankees might get desperate.
04:11You know, the Padres always seem to want a wheel and deal.
04:14Maybe I can raid them again.
04:15And if I can't, then we'll just stay here.
04:17So I screamed last year that they needed to trade McKenzie Gore, and I was upset that
04:21they didn't.
04:22And then they ended up getting a great return from McKenzie Gore in the offseason.
04:25And so the lesson learned there is, could you do a little bit better, possibly?
04:30Yes.
04:31Are you worse off for having a better program, a better culture, a better big league team
04:37for more time, and then still getting an outstanding offer?
04:41And the answer to me is no.
04:43And again, I'm very, very cognizant and aware and thinking about the clubhouse.
04:52I think one of the mistakes that gets made by media and fans sometimes is not thinking
04:58enough about it, especially in baseball, for whatever reason, where you've got some
05:01mercurial personalities.
05:03Veteran clubhouses are extremely like this.
05:05Think about guys like Jason Wirth who take things personally and whatever else.
05:09Ripping lineups off the wall.
05:10Absolutely.
05:11You just got to be careful.
05:12I gave you the Brewers example.
05:13I could give you several others.
05:14But when a new front office comes in, Taboney at one point, who I love, I think Paul Taboney
05:20has been awesome, but he did a press conference where he said this self-deprecating thing.
05:24I don't even remember what they were talking about, but this was like a month ago, and
05:28he was commenting on how proud of the team he had been for their development so far and
05:33like how they'd answered all the challenges.
05:35And he said, and then the idiot GM came in and traded away a couple of our best guys.
05:39And he was speaking from the perspective of the players this spring when his point was
05:44like the new GM came in and traded our best reliever, Jose Ferrer, if I'm James
05:49would.
05:50And then they traded my best starting pitcher, Mackenzie Gore.
05:52And then we have these meetings where he's like, let's go win, guys.
05:55Let's make sure we're winning.
05:56Let's do everything right every single day.
05:58But you just traded my best pitcher.
06:00You traded my best reliever.
06:02And so now you fast forward and they've bought in.
06:06They now believe in what I'm doing, what we're selling, the philosophies, the technology,
06:11what Blake's doing.
06:12And they're overachieving and they're going, oh my God.
06:14It's like we're running this race and we're looking around and we're ahead of these other
06:18people and then you just kick their legs out from under them one more time because you
06:22trade C.J. Abrams.
06:23And I just would be really careful about that, especially when you are an analytics front
06:28office in this game, just doing too much too fast.
06:33Does that make sense?
06:34No, of course it does.
06:35But again, I think that the, and I understand it.
06:38I think it's a good perspective.
06:39I mean, my view is if hurt feelings were a factor, they would have, it would have shown
06:43up at some point.
06:44Now, maybe you're saying if you're playing a game of Jenga, well, you know, they would
06:49have gone into the tank and played terribly when Dylan Cruz got sent down, or they would
06:52have been so mad when Joey Weimer got sent down, or Brady House, or they played this great
06:56despite not having Ferrer or Mackenzie Gore on the roster.
06:59I don't think it works that way.
07:01That's not necessarily what I'm saying.
07:02Like they haven't done anything that, I think Dylan Cruz was probably furious.
07:07I'm sure Scott.
07:07Individually, I'm sure he was.
07:08Scott Boris is livid.
07:09I'm positive about that.
07:09I think the relationship with Dylan Cruz has changed.
07:11Now, does that mean he'll never want to be here?
07:14Should they care about that?
07:15At this point, he should worry about his second contract.
07:18They're not overly concerned.
07:19But there's no chance that how he feels, big picture, has not changed.
07:24That's just normal, I would say, when you get demoted and then they keep you down long
07:28enough that you, basically, you know, so that they can keep a year of control before you
07:33get to free agency.
07:34His agent is irate, and I'm sure calling around and letting everybody know what they did so that
07:39it's out there and it's obvious, but they don't have to care about that.
07:42But it doesn't mean like they're going to pout and not try.
07:46I just think there's a difference between like those individual things and the Stearns
07:51thing where it all went sour and the Brewer, it caved in.
07:54And next thing you know, he's leaving to go to a different organization because the relationships
07:57there aren't the same as he wanted them to be.
08:00It's a tough tightrope to walk.
08:01But I think what they've been able to do is give guys really hard news and have them take
08:05it pretty damn well.
08:06They're pros, and while if I'm in the midst of a career year, which a lot of these guys
08:11are, and my career now looks like it's on a different track than it was under the previous
08:15regime just less than a year ago, and they trade someone away, I'm like, that's not my
08:20favorite thing that happened, but also what they're saying is working for me.
08:24So I'm not going to abandon that because I'm pissed off or something to that effect.
08:28So I understand your point.
08:30You can't just keep doing it.
08:31You can't just keep taking blocks out of the Jenga and have the whole thing hold up.
08:35Yeah.
08:36But this is a pretty unique circumstance is what I would say.
08:39And again, I'm not doing it unless I'm blown away being cognizant of some of those reasons
08:43and rationalities that you're espousing.
08:45Yeah.
08:46The blown away part is hard because I don't know what that looks like.
08:49Like that's a...
08:49It's hard to quantify.
08:50You'll know when you see it.
08:51It's like a caveat thing.
08:52This is a binary conversation.
08:54You're willing to trade him.
08:55I'm not.
08:56The blown away part, it complicates it in a weird way as far as I'm concerned.
09:00But the other question, I guess, that I would have is why not try to extend him?
09:06You know, I wonder if they're even doing that at all.
09:08But would you be trying to extend him?
09:10Like I've said all along, pay him top of the market money at second base and move him to
09:14second base.
09:15Is that something you'd be interested in doing?
09:17Yeah.
09:18Marginally, to be honest with you.
09:19Only marginally.
09:20Yeah.
09:20Because I don't...
09:21I see that...
09:22Again, we're talking about hurt feelings.
09:23He's an all-star shortstop.
09:24But we're going, yeah, we'll give you second base money.
09:26Well, he's now could go, I'm the starting all-star shortstop for the National League.
09:30He's got to be willing to do it.
09:32If he's willing to sign for seven years and $180 million as my second baseman.
09:36Well, yeah.
09:36I think that's just as big a caveat as being blown away at the trade deadline, right?
09:39I mean, it implies a huge desire on his part to do that.
09:42So that's another thing we don't...
09:44We have no idea what it is.
09:45I just...
09:46No, no.
09:46I'm asking you the question.
09:47Yeah.
09:48If he's willing to sign as a second baseman at seven years and $180 million, are you willing
09:52to do that?
09:54Yeah, I'm willing to do that.
09:55I'm not...
09:56I'm not sprinting to do it, though.
09:58Really?
09:58Yeah.
09:59I would do that.
09:59I would run the contract.
10:01I just...
10:01There's still a lack of trust for me.
10:03And there's too much water under the bridge.
10:05Too many bad habits that...
10:07What do you mean by that?
10:08It's just the defensive stuff.
10:11I know people just kind of gloss over it.
10:12Would get better at second?
10:13You would think so.
10:14But I'm not talking about that.
10:14I'm talking about his habits before games.
10:17Watching him Cadillac it when everyone else is working hard and grinding.
10:20And sort of see him screwing around and making some of the same errors.
10:24And, you know, again, these three months have been awesome.
10:27And there's no way around that.
10:28I just...
10:29I don't know.
10:30Again, I'd have to know much more information.
10:32Are we still doing the stay out super late at night, come in at 8 o'clock in the morning
10:35thing?
10:35Or has he not been caught yet?
10:36I have no clue what his personal habits are at this point.
10:40There's enough water under the bridge that I'm still a little bit skeptical and gun-shy
10:43about jumping in there, George Pickens-style, going, hey, this has been great for a few
10:47months under a new regime.
10:48Here's seven more years.
10:50I don't know if you're the guy that I want as one of the, you know, the eventual 30-year
10:55-old
10:55in this clubhouse running things.
10:57I don't know if I want that.
10:58Maybe he has turned over a new leaf.
10:59Maybe he's now a pro's pro and an awesome guy.
11:02People seem to like him.
11:03I just don't know.
11:04I'd have to solve those.
11:05I'd have to feel comfortable with those things before I give him a couple of million bucks.
11:10For me, I've seen enough good baseball that I don't care as much about that stuff because
11:14I think as my clubhouse improves, as my culture improves, and I'm assuming that's already
11:18happened, he's always been in clubhouses with young guys where there's no real leaders.
11:23I mean, he's averaged basically 20 homers and close to 40 steals.
11:27Well, he didn't average 40 steals, but over 30 steals.
11:29Like mid-30 steals and around 20 home runs the last four seasons almost.
11:33He's on pace to surpass that this year.
11:35This is what he is.
11:36He's one of the best offensive infielders in the sport.
11:38So that's a guy that I want to keep around and pay.
11:41You just can't find guys like that.
11:43It's really, really hard to find middle infielders who are going to hit 20 home runs and steal
11:4830-plus bases every single season.
11:49Let's go to Chris in Hyattsville.
11:51What's up, Chris?
11:54What's up, guys?
11:55Number one, if CJ signs a contract, you just tell him where he's going to play.
12:02If this isn't the NBA, you can't James Harden your way out of the position that the coach
12:07tells you to play it, and then there'll be, at least not I'm aware of any such instance
12:11of that.
12:12I mean, there have been moments, Chris, I'm going to let you finish, but there have been
12:14moments that have been really tense.
12:15I think Raphael Devers in Boston, top of my head, where it led to him not being there
12:20anymore after signing the deal.
12:21I mean, I know what you're saying.
12:24Like, of course, the manager's in charge, but guys get bristled.
12:27I mean, Alex Rodriguez was a much better shortstop than Derek Jeter, but he had to change
12:30positions.
12:31You know?
12:32Put it this way, Danny.
12:33They're not going to give him starting shortstop money for a seven-year extension, and then
12:37would he take it?
12:38We'll not find the contract.
12:39That's what I would jump in to say is, this is not something you'd sort out after he signs
12:43an extension.
12:43You're either paying him as a shortstop or a second baseman, and the extension would
12:48be, you're a second baseman, do you want that or not?
12:51The answer to your point, Danny, is he probably wouldn't take the extension.
12:55I just asked you the hypothetical, would you?
12:57I'm trying to drill down on how much of this is CJ.
12:59I get the sense for you, a lot of this is about Abrams.
13:01It sounds like you don't believe in maybe the person as much or what have you, and this
13:06is, so that's what I'm trying to figure out.
13:08Yeah, no, which is fair, yeah.
13:09But my point is, I'm giving him the seven-year extension to play second base.
13:13You're not as excited to do that.
13:15But anyway, keep going, Chris.
13:17Okay, so, but if I'm Taboni, a couple of things, right?
13:21Number one, these are good problems to have, right?
13:25Yes.
13:26Being ahead of schedule, being much better than you expected, these are good problems to
13:29have, but it does create some tension.
13:32He is probably hoping that the team makes his decision for either they keep winning and
13:37they absolutely cannot trade Abrams because they're seven, eight games above 500, or they
13:43bottom out and they make trading him a lot more easy.
13:46Totally.
13:47To your point, Grant, okay, they traded with Gore, they traded Ferrer before the end of
13:53the season, but that was coming off a historically terrible season for the French.
13:56It wasn't like they had any, the team should be talking about how great they were, how dare
14:01you trade these guys.
14:02Now that they've bought in and they've attended all these meetings and they've done what all
14:06the coaches have said and they're winning.
14:08Now you're going to go and trade your best, arguably your best player or what your top
14:13number one or two player after all the players have done all that work and they bought in.
14:18I agree with you.
14:19I think far too often fans treat players like they're fantasy football characters or fantasy
14:26baseball characters or just saver metrics, the statistics, you can't underestimate the
14:31psychological component of the game because it's people that play the game.
14:35And I think if they're still in the hunt or very well ahead of the wild card race and
14:40you trade CJ at the, at the break or the, before the deadline, that could have a terrible
14:46effect on morale on the team.
14:49And I just don't see how you could tell players to toe the line and do what we ask you
14:53to
14:53do and, and come in every day and work.
14:55They're working harder than they ever have, you know, and then just trade one of your best
14:59players.
14:59I don't see how those two things equate.
15:01I think it's a great phone call.
15:03Thank you, Chris.
15:03You're kind of speaking to the choir here with kind of how I'm feeling.
15:07The other question would be, and you can hit us up at 800-636-1067.
15:13First things first, actually, let me say this.
15:15I think he's right.
15:15Like, Paul Taboni secretly would love one way or the other.
15:18Probably doesn't even care if it's good or bad because it's year one of this rebuild.
15:21Honestly, yeah.
15:21Like, hey, if we're six under and I can trade CJ Abrams, awesome.
15:24By the way, if they were to lose 15 of their next 22, okay, I'm with you.
15:30Decision gets made.
15:30I wanted to trade CJ Abrams before it was cool.
15:32You know what I'm saying?
15:33Like, now it's easier to do that.
15:34There's no doubt about that.
15:35But I think you and I have had this disagreement about the commander's locker room in the past a
15:40little bit.
15:40Like, you have a, I don't want to know the exact saying, but your thing is like, I don't
15:44really care about those players.
15:46They didn't win and they're not going to be here long-term anyway or something like
15:48that.
15:49That's basically it.
15:49If you're a losing team with a bunch of guys that aren't part of the turnaround, I'm not
15:55really that concerned about them and their feelings.
15:57And so my bigger picture feeling is sports are about people and relationships matter.
16:01And so I do care a lot about my locker room.
16:03I think the worst thing you can do in sports is lose your locker room.
16:06Let's go to KJ in Northern Virginia.
16:07What's up, KJ?
16:10Hey, what's going on, guys?
16:11Hey, bud.
16:12So in my opinion, I mean, if you look at the team right now, first of all, first time they've
16:18been over 500 by three games since 2019, which is a huge improvement on its own.
16:23But if you look at TJ Abrams per se, you also got to look at the owners because the learners
16:29have been on this half and half train for the past few years.
16:33And in my opinion, they're just going to do the same thing they did with McKenzie Gore
16:38if they're not able to pay him and it's going to be cheap that they have been because they
16:43have a tendency of training the big players, the game prospects, and that is keep going
16:47down the big record hole.
16:48So in my opinion, if they decide to finally spend the money, they need to pay Abrams because
16:54as you said, Grant, earlier, he's one of the best that you in the league as far as
16:59middle-of-field goes.
17:00I mean, 20 homers, 40-some bases, I mean, he is like that.
17:03He is a very good player.
17:04I feel like you need to keep him around longer.
17:06He's outstanding.
17:07The bugaboo is, as Danny pointed out, he's terrible defensively at shortstop and probably
17:12is not going to be a shortstop long-term.
17:14I would point out, everyone always says, like, the learners need to pay him.
17:17He has to want to take on money, too.
17:20He has to want to not go to free agency.
17:22Right.
17:22They may be willing to offer him, you know, $175 or $205 million, and he's got a need to accept
17:28the money.
17:28He can also go, I'm starting an all-star shortstop this year.
17:32I've gotten some great adjustments from this coaching staff.
17:34I'm not going to do the three weeks of good play followed by six months of terribleness
17:39anymore.
17:40I can be an all-star for three straight seasons and then go to free agency.
17:43I think I'll take my chances, please and thank you.
17:45That's within his rights.
17:46He's Danny.
17:47I'm Grant.
17:47This is the fan.