- 3 months ago
In this episode, Nick Hall, editor-in-chief at Man of Many, discusses the intricacies of bold red wines with special guest Chris Carpenter, chief winemaker at Hickinbotham Wines in South Australia. Chris shares insights from his journey from bartending in Chicago to becoming a renowned winemaker, detailing his holistic approach to wine growing and production. They delve into the characteristics of bold red wines like Cabernet Sauvignon and Shiraz, the unique qualities of McLaren Vale vineyards,
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00:00and he cracked that bottle open while we were dining and it was one of those aha eureka moments
00:06and right there i knew i wanted to explore how that wine came to be and that started
00:13the journey to a very great degree that bottle
00:24wine is for lack of a better word intimidating when you're standing in front of 100 bottles
00:29trying to decipher which one won't make the dinner party disappointed or break the bank
00:33can be hard to make sense of it all but it doesn't have to be this way what if i
00:38told you
00:38that bold red wines think shiraz think cabernet's all the old favorites aren't just for collectors
00:44and sommeliers but for almost anyone i'm nicole editor-in-chief of band of many and welcome to
00:50our new series where we sit down with creators makers and disruptors to decode the things in
00:55life that we love now today i'm joined by a very special guest who knows infinitely more about
01:00wine than i do chris carpenter chris is the chief winemaker at higginbotham clarendon vineyard a
01:05stunning high elevation vineyard in south australia but that's just one side of him chris is also a
01:10jazz musician a biochemist and one of the few people on earth who makes an elite cabernet both
01:14in napa valley and australia if you ever wanted to learn about bold reds you couldn't ask for a
01:20better guide chris welcome to the podcast so great to have you here good to be here nick thank you
01:24no worries now let's start at the beginning for people who don't know you yet how would you
01:28describe what you do how do i describe what i do well i farm vineyards to create really good grapes
01:35that will help me create really good wine and i oversee the fermentations of any number of different
01:43wines both in napa valley and in mclaren vale to create a wine that will transport you to that
01:50place in that time where i'm making it now you've had a pretty fascinating pathway into
01:54winemaking obviously starting with hospitality and then going through science and music as well was
01:59there a specific wine or grape that brought you to the vineyard in the first place yeah so i was
02:04working as a bartender in chicago many years ago and a lot of my friends were in the restaurant industry
02:13and one of them worked at a little italian place in an area of chicago called little italy and this
02:19is a
02:20place that had you know the red and white checker top table clause yeah classic you'd go in there
02:25there'd be one table filled with cops another table filled with mafioso another table with yuppies and a
02:31table with restaurant people and one of the guys that worked there was a pal of ours and he was
02:36about
02:37probably three or four years ahead of the wine learning spectrum and the rest of us and we had been
02:43going in there for years drinking basket wines you know chianti and with the basket around it
02:48and one night he's like you know you guys are far too much into the restaurant industry not to
02:55appreciate good wine i brought a bottle that i wanted to share with you and it was a bottle of
03:00the 1990
03:01groth reserve cabernet sauvignon and he cracked that bottle open while we were dining and it was one of
03:07those aha eureka moments and right there i knew i wanted to explore how that wine came to be and
03:18that started the journey to a very great degree that bottle it's so interesting that you you started
03:23with the cabernet sauvignon because i would rate that as something that people usually build up to
03:27yeah you know that's i hadn't thought of it i mean frankly the the chianti was probably more of that
03:34pathway but but that wine then transformed me to the next level you know and who would have thought
03:41that was in that that particular vintage was an incredible vintage in napa that particular wine
03:47unbeknownst to those of us that were dining that night had been rated exceptionally well and he was
03:54presenting this wine to us out of a favor just to kind of make that transformation happen with with
04:00this group of friends that he had and i did at least for me and i'm sure for many others
04:05at the
04:05table so you have that kind of transformational moment where you know that this is something you
04:09want to do where do you go next how do you start that journey of getting into winemaking well so
04:13i had
04:14that moment right and i was not only working in the restaurants in uh chicago but i was also working
04:22during the day for a medical products company and i was selling blood and urine analyzers to hospital labs
04:30and you know i didn't wake up in the morning go blood and urine analyzers let's go you know and
04:34some people do and god love them but that wasn't for me and i sold a great product i worked
04:38for a
04:38great company uh but i love the restaurant industry i i wanted to get back into applied science which i
04:45had studied as an undergraduate in my college years at biology particularly and i wanted to do something
04:52creative and i didn't know how to put it all together but i knew i had to figure it out
04:55because
04:56i had to make a decision for the organization that i worked from during the day and so i took
05:01a walk
05:01about and went out to california took three weeks i made my way from san diego up to the bay
05:07area and
05:08one of the last visits was in napa valley and i put it all together like here's an industry that
05:13is
05:13intimately connected with the restaurants which i wanted to stay connected to that you use any number
05:20of different fields within the sciences on a daily basis and has a certain portion of its work centered
05:26around creativity and um yeah so that you know making that realization there and then coming back
05:33to chicago i was fortunate i had subscriptions to food and wine magazines and in one of those magazines
05:37there was an article about a gentleman who had studied at university of california davis to get his
05:44degree in winemaking and i read that and i knew that was my path that's so funny and now we
05:50look
05:50at it you know you're kind of splitting your time between napa valley and mclaren vale yeah how do you
05:54find that balance do you bring lessons from from one region to the other all the time you know that's
05:59the
05:59wonderful thing about the wine industry in general around the world it's a very sharing industry uh the
06:07there are new techniques there are new ways of approaching uh challenges in vineyards uh to think
06:14about winemaking as a as a holistic um endeavor and i can tell you exactly how i do things in
06:22napa valley
06:23and you could take that back to uh south australia and you're not going to make the same wines because
06:28a
06:29lot of what winemaking is driven by the differences are these geographies that we're working in so that
06:35part of it allows for sharing without having to worry that you're giving up any particular secrets
06:40right so i've learned a tremendous amount from my colleagues in south australia i've learned a lot
06:46about aspects of the grapes there that i've been able to then take back to napa valley and i hope
06:53vice
06:53versa um with the vineyard that we took over in 2012 the hickenbotham vineyard a lot of what i brought
07:00to the table was an understanding of how to grow cabernet at a very high level yeah one
07:05thing that obviously is the the similarity between the two regions is this idea of bold red wines
07:10yes so what do we mean when we talk about bold red wine i think when we use that as
07:15a descriptor
07:16we're talking about wines that have depth that have um a a textural component to the wine not just
07:24you know one of the great things about wine is that there's a tactile experience and there's a lighter
07:29fresher wine style that might be like a a pinot grigio and then there's a a wine that has uh
07:37undercurrents
07:38and weight and a texture along your palate and and a resonance after you've swallowed it that's usually
07:45what we're referring to with bold wines and cabernet sauvignon and merlot and shiraz fall into that
07:52general category characteristically are there things that you like more in a bold red wine as opposed to
07:57other things yeah well that's a great question and so that you would mention at the beginning how do
08:03you how do you decipher any one um part of of this matrix that that wine is and a lot
08:12of it has to do
08:12with what do you personally like right and you need to as an individual you need to figure that out
08:19for me with cabernet there's a couple of things cabernet has that structural component that chewiness
08:26that that length meaning you've swallowed it and it just keeps going on and on and on because
08:31it's so concentrated that's evaporating on your palate over time it's got complexity so it's
08:37multi-layered again you think about a pinot grigio pinot grigio is a pretty simple wine it's delicious
08:42wine but it doesn't have as many different layers as a cabernet sauvignon or a shiraz might have
08:48so being able to pinpoint those layers and and lose yourself in the complexity much like you would lose
08:55yourself in the complexity of a mozart uh concert or or you know that there's there's layers that
09:02you're that you're being turned on by and and my wines i like to have that in there i want
09:08people
09:09to experience my wines on many different levels emotionally gastronomically um tactically and and
09:17it's all there for you people need to find what turns them on what they like about certain wines if
09:22you're a new wine drinker something that you haven't experienced before how do you find that
09:26where do you start well that's a that's an excellent question where i would start and what i've
09:32recommended to a lot of people is find a really good bottle shop near you and um go in there
09:39and
09:39find somebody who you know describe a wine that you want you know do you and and maybe it's that
09:45you're and this is how i started maybe you're pairing it with a dinner that night so listen i'm gonna
09:51have lamb tonight i want something that can stand up to the lamb but that's not going to overwhelm it
09:56that is lighter on the palate but still something that will carry through the meal and most of those
10:04guys that work in bottle shops can then you know direct you to that and then you can start learning
10:09about it and you can start learning what goes best with other things and then you start
10:13individualizing each one of those wines across the spectrum of that particular variety there's 10
10:19different ways that i can make Shiraz and there's no reason that any one of them is better than the
10:26other other than that moment and what you're looking for does that make sense absolutely the
10:31what you called out obviously heading to the bottle shop i feel like the level of wine education in
10:35bottle shops in australia has dramatically increased in the past you know 10 15 years feels like you can
10:39get some real excellent insights from from people at the local shop you should be i mean most of the
10:45people that are working there if they're if they're in that field have some knowledge or they have the
10:50ability to increase their knowledge because there are wine reps there are winemakers there are people
10:55coming in there and tasting them all the time so they're able to direct you just like the place
11:00in chicago when i was just starting to learn about wine i didn't know enough about it and i you
11:06know
11:06i had like three different guys that would help me at the it was a place called sam's and i
11:12learned
11:12that one of the guys really dialed in my palate well and that was the guy who i knew what
11:18days he
11:19worked when i would need to buy wine i'd go in when he worked and he helped me those first
11:23couple of
11:24years gain the first first part of the knowledge base that i needed ultimately to move on to my own
11:30exploration that's a great point to raise because i feel like one of the big misconceptions when it comes
11:34to wine much like whiskey is that age statements and the older is better but that's not always the case
11:39that's not always the case no it's just it again it it comes down to personal preference it comes down
11:45to um you know what you're trying to accomplish with that bottle of wine i mean you're gonna if
11:53it's a night of celebration you're gonna get a bottle of champagne you know because you know it's
11:58gonna make everybody happy a champagne always makes people happy uh but it may not be the best time to
12:04have a cabernet that night but maybe that maybe you're having a big old piece of steak later that night
12:08you're gonna get a cab you know those those those kind of decisions happen all the time in wine and
12:12one of the great things about wine is there are so many choices that you can make and you can
12:17go any
12:18different direction and oftentimes it's going to work just because speaking of the different choices can
12:23you run me through the different core red varietals and what separates you know a Shiraz from a from a
12:28cab sap well what separates a cab from a Shiraz is there's a couple different things that that break
12:36that apart so cabernet tends to have a tremendous amount of tannin tannin of these compounds that when
12:42you taste the wine it may be the drying effect that you feel or the chewiness of one if you've
12:49ever had
12:49a really good cab and you kind of go wow i could chew on that that's tannin Shiraz doesn't have
12:56that same
12:57level of tannin Shiraz has a great middle body typically um so when you have a Shiraz that the
13:06weight of that palate will be much greater all else being relative to the production methodologies
13:14between the two wines there's a spiciness to Shiraz like almost a um like a bell pepper black pepper
13:22spice that that cabernet has a little bit of but not like Shiraz to the same extent no and then
13:29then
13:29there's also often with Shiraz a savoriness to it whereas cab has this bright uh dark fruit character
13:38typically um and those things are they're they're equal in their in their presentation relative to one
13:46but so distant and why in this country in australia the two were blended together for many years and
13:54still are we make a wine that's a cab Shiraz blend because they're they can stand up to one another
14:00but they fit like puzzle pieces together so they're there it's a really it's kind of like the rock and
14:05kevin hart complete opposite but together they're hilarious you know so here in australia obviously we
14:12have a very rich wine culture what is it about australian wine what defines australian wine in
14:17your eyes i don't think there's a vast difference in the quality of the vineyards i think some of the
14:24highest quality vineyards in the world are in australia i think some of the most passionate
14:29winemakers and most um developed research arm of the wine industry happens in australia and there's
14:37similarities in other regions to that uh there's a there's a a very proud tradition of some unique
14:44wines you think about the rutherford glenn moscato or uh hunter valley semian or the cab Shiraz blend
14:51or or sparkling Shiraz yeah those are those are australian as you can get man and those are things
14:58that the aussie industry is very proud of because they're they're a unique uh contribution to the
15:05overall industry uh so you know to separate it out you have to look at the regions and how different
15:11regions define themselves per that variety versus other regions so with cabernet which i'm involved in
15:18in the u.s you think about napa valley walla walla paso robles as cabernet areas uh in france
15:27bordeaux generally uh here in australia margaret river uh the yara and clarendon mclarenville where
15:36i operate out those are cab regions and they're they're all presenting cab at a very high level
15:42but just different because it's a different region it's different geography and all the factors that
15:46make up that geography are unique which make it really cool as a wine drinker because you can go
15:51through that exploration without ever having to leave your dinner table that's so true let's let's zoom
15:56in a little bit on clarendon for now what is it about that slice of south australia that's so unique
16:00yeah so clarendon sits at the northern side of the mclaren vale and most of the mclaren vale is
16:08protected by the mount lofty ranges and protected to the extent that the breezes and the cooling effect
16:15coming off the gulf of saint vincent don't hit that part of mclaren vale and where you can grow
16:22incredible grenache because it's really warm where mclaren vale has mostly put its flag up around a
16:28variety it's around grenache because of that area you start heading up towards the adelaide hills at
16:34the far northern part of the vale and you hit clarendon which is that elevation which is above
16:40that protection and gets all that cooling effect and gets it early in the afternoon cooling down the
16:47vineyard giving it an opportunity cabernet doesn't do so well in really hot areas it needs a little
16:53bit of a cool cool down and up in clarendon you get that and you've got these soils that have
16:59a unique
17:00character to the that add a unique character to the wine they're very different than the rest of the
17:05vale and and then you've got you're closer to the sun you're you're at 1100 feet and you're getting
17:11more radiative energy and you're getting more of it for longer because you're above the the the fog
17:16line when there's fog so you combine all those things and cabernet flourishes in those kind of
17:22environments and that's why i'm there because that i want to work with those kind of vineyards so when
17:28you are there obviously there's a lot going on but walk me through the the higginbotham process and
17:33taking it from from vine to bottle so we farm organically we are one step away from a regenerative
17:43um accreditation because we're using a lot of the techniques around regenerative farming we farm with
17:50precision we farm for wine we're not farming for grapes so all the decisions that we make in the
17:57vineyard are based on creating gold right you can take gold and turn it into jewelry you can't take
18:04lead and turn it into gold right so we farm for gold and and that being said what will happen
18:12is when the grapes will then express that place and i want to make wines that speak to the place
18:19i'm
18:19not making napa valley wines in mclaren vale so farming that way brings it through the process and
18:25when it gets into the winery we try to keep that make side of it as simple as possible because
18:31if we
18:31start using a lot of the new technologies that are out there and there's plenty of them
18:35um or we're overt in our technique it becomes more about winemaking and i wanted to speak to
18:42clarendon so we do native yeast fermentations meaning the yeast that grow up in the vineyard
18:47are what carry out the fermentation versus buying yeast from a lab that and there's plenty of great
18:53yeast out there and plenty of people that do that this is a style decision we're very mechanical in the
18:59winery um we are we're looking at flavor as it builds over time making the decisions based on
19:06how that fermentation is happening we basket press and then we put down to french oak barrels that'll
19:12reside in that oak for anywhere up to 14 to 16 months depending on the vintage it's so interesting
19:17because you talked at the start just then about regenerative which i feel like is a very progressive
19:21approach but then at the same time going back to some very traditional elements of basket pressing
19:26and things like that how do you balance those two ideologies well when you think about a regenerative
19:31is very old school as well it's just been forgotten and bringing you know having sheep in the vineyard
19:37to mow down your weeds that that was used a thousand years ago and then just lost vogue because it
19:44costs
19:44money and it and it um it's not as efficient but it's it's actually a much better way to handle
19:50the natural world partnership than trying to ram technology into into the natural world uh so
19:58what we do in the winery is is reflective of what we've done in the vineyard and all those things
20:04combine to to have you know the holistic approach to everything that we're talking about with winemaking
20:10is really important i think we're moving forward but we're also paying homage to a natural setting
20:17in both environments which i feel like is very fitting with with winemaking generally it should
20:22be right because you're dealing with organism you're dealing with yeast you're dealing with plants
20:28and you're creating something that's just a natural outcome of the interaction of of a plant
20:36reproductive body with a fungal um organism that wants to use those resources and out of it comes
20:43this product that mammals like to consume you know so everybody's happy i was gonna ask you but i feel
20:48like you answered it just in the way that you spoke then but do you like the science side of
20:52it i love
20:52the science side of it yeah i geek out on it it's it's one you know i geek out on
20:57everything about
20:58wine i geek out on the science side i geek out on the spiritual side i geek out on the
21:02on the dining
21:03and convivial side it's the great thing about wine is that there's so many different pieces of
21:10my personal interests that i combine with this with this field that i'm never bored you know i'm all
21:18there's always something new to learn but all that geeking out obviously isn't for nothing there is
21:22kind of five key wines that you guys work on can you run me through the the main product lines
21:26that
21:26you've got yeah so hickenbotham has a number of different wines we we make a merlot a cab franc
21:33a uh shiraz a cabernet sauvignon and a cab shiraz blend called the peak and each one
21:40is meant to highlight not only the varietal character but again the geographic character
21:48of clarendon and they're all developed in this vineyard that is ideal for each one of those
21:54varieties and um got a lot of luck with that cab franc is the one that is catching everyone's eye
22:00in the office i think oh good it's one that we don't see that often no so um cab franc
22:05is a variety
22:06that is one of the five basic varieties in bordeaux you know they're bordeaux either combines or
22:13utilizes individual expressions of cabernet sauvignon merlot malbec petite verdot and cabernet franc
22:21cabernet franc has been immortalized by one of the brands on the right bank of bordeaux called
22:29cheval blanc uh and this is a wine that's highly collectible one of the one of the great wines of
22:35france um we planted cabernet franc at hickenbotham because we initially intended to make it a blending
22:43wine so use it as like a spice rack wine in cabernet or something uh what we found was that
22:49it was so
22:50bloody good that we should make a wine that speaks to this vineyard speaks to the variety unto itself and
22:56it is very reminiscent of right back right bank uh cabernet franc it's got a lot of great floral notes
23:03like rose petal and orange blossom it's got this great uh red fruit character and it's got an energy
23:08to it that is just outstanding now that said it's presented in a right bank style which is more
23:16you know a little more savory a little more weighty um more uh usually brought to a little
23:23higher ripeness there's another area of france called the loire and the loire there's cab franc as
23:29well and those cab francs tend to have a lot more uh bell pepper character a lot more like base
23:36cherry
23:37characters they're lower alcohol they're what we would call crunchy wines and a lot of those wines
23:42are produced here in australia in the adelaide hills but they're very distinct they're not they're
23:47nothing like our wine and where they're grown in the adelaide hills it's appropriate for them to be
23:53made in that in that form versus the ones that we're making in um clarendon and those places
23:59obviously regions are uh are so integral to the way that a finished product comes out i'm talking
24:04obviously earlier about whiskey and things like that do you find there's a lot of crossover between
24:08whiskey drinkers and red wine in terms of what they're after yeah absolutely in fact i'm making two
24:13different whiskeys back in california yeah from bourbon that we've sourced in kentucky and a lot of
24:19why we're making those whiskeys is because our audience likes that complexity likes that depth and
24:26what's interesting further is that the complexity of each is such that you can you can dive into them
24:34and learn and and get lost in in that um discovery yeah that's fantastic do you see
24:42with people who may be going back to to the whiskey drinkers trying right or red wine if they haven't
24:46before do you see people making mistakes when they get into wine for the first time oh sure everybody
24:51does i mean i i did i mean and there's no you shouldn't be worried about that you know there's
24:57again the what what you should keep thinking about when you're when you're getting into wine is do i like
25:04it you know and who cares what anybody else thinks if i like this wine i'm and it makes you
25:09happy then
25:10then go with it uh and whiskey is much the same way right i mean you you can think about
25:16whiskeys
25:17let's say cask strength versus 94 proof they're very different or a seven year versus a 12 year
25:26some people are gonna they might go for the 12 year only because it's a 12 year but it may
25:31not be as
25:31good as a seven year for a cocktail so i make the two whiskeys i make back in the states
25:37one is
25:38it's an eight year and the other is a combined because i blend a few different ages together
25:45a 12 year and that 12 year has a lot more rye in it and so bottled at cask strength
25:52so this is a
25:53whiskey that you want to have a big old of ice you know in that glass and you want to
25:59watch that
25:59evolution as that ice is melting around the whiskey whereas the other whiskey i made for that market that
26:05makers mark and woodford and some of the more blended and cocktail use whiskeys are for and that
26:13you know the same thing happens with with wine my wines that i make in california one of them i
26:19make
26:19for the collectors you know it's a it's a wine that has big tannins great grip it's got concentration
26:26at the wazoo and it'll it'll last in your cellar for 25 years but in a restaurant environment that's
26:33not an ideal wine because they open up a young wine it may swamp the food that's being served so
26:39i make
26:39a wine that's a little bit more approachable doesn't have the tannins doesn't have the um the weight and
26:45it's a little bit more connected to a restaurant environment and and i i'm very explicit about that
26:51when i'm out there talking about it because i want i want everybody to experience my ideas and and
26:57sometimes you know you can't wait for 25 years here's a wine that you can open up that night
27:03that's funny the other the other crossover that we see often with whiskey and wine is obviously
27:08price point as well yes so with you guys can you tell 100 that there's a there's a major difference
27:13between a 90 bottle of wine and a 20 bottle of wine typically yeah there's the we're pricing wines
27:20based on not only the amount of attention to detail that we're utilizing to farm those grapes to make
27:29that wine but the quality level and that quality level uh is you can tell a five dollar bottle of
27:38yellowtail versus a 200 bottle of henschke you know there's a vast separation and it's based on
27:46the concentration and the and the color and the complexity and and the structure they're all
27:53all those factors come into play so for someone who's looking to dip their toe into the premium
27:58worldwide what advice do you have for them um well i mentioned find a good bottle shop that you can
28:03learn
28:04from uh you know go online there's plenty of of places online that can teach you about wine and
28:11you know you're you're jumping into that right the man of many wants to help your readers learn about
28:17that i'm sure you'll continue to develop uh places where they can where people your readers can learn
28:24and there are plenty of places out there to do that and just drink wine don't order a beer don't
28:30order
28:30a cocktail order some wine and and get the psalm at the restaurant to tell you why you should order
28:35that i mean that's always fun i did that last night i was at a little italian place um ragazzi
28:42if you
28:42haven't eaten there it's outstanding um and i was chatting with the sommelier behind the bar he was
28:48actually the bartender behind the bar about a couple of the wines that he had that i wasn't familiar with
28:54and he was teaching me because i don't this particular variety i didn't know about and um don't be afraid
29:01i mean wine people part of the problem is and you've you've said it in a couple different ways
29:07is wine can be intimidating because there's so much information out there and there's a lot of there's a
29:12whole category of people that all they do is study it well god love them for studying it but but
29:18one of
29:18the things that they do when they study it is they love to share that information so don't be afraid
29:23and you're never going to make a fool of yourself by asking questions no matter what you're talking about
29:28and with wine you need to always ask questions because there's always something to learn
29:32i've been doing it now for 30 some odd years i'm still asking questions i'm still learning
29:38and that's the great thing about wine amazing now i only have a few more questions for you and one
29:43of
29:43them is it's always subjective but how how do you think people should enjoy wine is there a specific
29:47soundtrack you're a musician you should surely there's some sort of jazz track that works best for
29:52well i mean i go anywhere from aerosmith to john coltrane to beethoven when i'm drinking wine it
30:00just depends what mood i'm in okay you know i wouldn't have picked cab sab as an aerosmith uh
30:06one but maybe it is dream on baby you kidding me now last question is uh any upcoming tastings events
30:12or special releases that people should know about with higginbotham well we've released the uh 22s
30:17recently so and those are doing really well and they're and they're singing i just tasted with a
30:22wine writer uh an hour or so ago and the and the 22s are just on and we're going to
30:27taste after right
30:28so the 22s are just are really it's a wonderful vintage with a lot of energy you know we have
30:35a
30:36event coming up i won't be here um the assistant winemaker for uh higginbotham be there guillem cam
30:43camergard with meyer station in south australia that's coming up in the next month or so uh that'll
30:49be a wonderful event you know i don't know if you know anything about meyer station their beef
30:53producer in south australia that finishes their uh cattle the last month of their life on lollies
31:00and chocolate oh i love that it's unbelievable this beef um so that that's the next thing coming up
31:06i love it chris it's been an absolute pleasure thank you so much for joining us and sharing your
31:10insights uh higginbotham claret of vineyards amazing collection of reds is available pretty much all
31:14good bottle shops around the country so get involved elevate your drinking experience and
31:18as always drink responsibly uh in the meantime don't forget to follow man of many wherever you
31:21get your podcasts sign up for our newsletter and make sure you follow us on social media for all the
31:25latest in products culture and style i've been nicole stay safe team thank you so much chris
31:30thank you so much for joining us and we'll see you next time we'll see you next time we'll see
31:45you next time
31:45you
31:45you
31:46you