- 3 weeks ago
Mark Zuckerman from Nats Journal joins The Kevin Sheehan Show to analyze the Nationals' struggles following the trade deadline, the current mood in the clubhouse, and when fans can expect James Wood to return from the injured list. He also dives into the defensive and financial fallout of CJ Abrams' move from shortstop to second base.
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00:00Remember those days when the Nats were putting up 12, 13, 14 hits a game, scoring eight, nine runs a
00:06game?
00:07Not recently. A fourth straight loss last night in Texas against the Rangers.
00:14They got beat five to nothing in this one.
00:18And they are now seven games below 500.
00:21And if you even care anymore, they are eight games out of the wildcard race.
00:28In fact, you know, as you look at the standings, this thing's going to end up being ugly.
00:32You know, at one point they were right there and they may end up being one of the three worst
00:36teams in the National League when all is said and done.
00:41Mark Zuckerman's been there all season long to cover it.
00:45Mark does such a great job with his sub stack Nats journal.
00:49I would urge you to subscribe to it if you're a Nats fan.
00:53He's also the co-host with our good friend Al Galdi on the Nats chat podcast.
00:58Follow Mark on X at Mark Zuckerman.
01:02You know, when we talked before or during the lead up to the trade deadline, before the four game losing
01:08skid against Atlanta that led into the trade deadline,
01:12one of the questions I asked you was if they decided to become sellers and somewhat the perception was they're
01:21bailing on the season,
01:22how would that play in the clubhouse like after the exciting first, you know, three, four months of the season
01:29that they've had?
01:32They didn't help themselves by losing the four games to Atlanta going into the trade deadline.
01:38I know James Wood isn't out there right now and some of the other players that they traded aren't out
01:42there,
01:43but just kind of help us with the vibe before the trade deadline and what it is now.
01:49Yeah, it's changed pretty dramatically for sure.
01:52You had this team of a lot of young guys, a few veterans sprinkled in that was playing way above
02:01expectation,
02:02that was starting to believe in itself and, you know, the front office and the coaching staff was trying to
02:08convey that they believed in them as well.
02:10Said, hey, we can make a run at this thing.
02:14I know this is ahead of schedule and we don't want to disrupt our overall bigger picture plan,
02:19but, you know, if you guys stay in this race, we're going to try to make a run at this.
02:25And then it all fell apart.
02:28The front office decides to trade away Luis Garcia and Curtis Mead and Foster Griffin.
02:34And then there's nothing they could have done about this or known this was going to happen.
02:37But literally the day of the trade deadline, you know, a few hours later, James Wood purchases oblique and is
02:43out.
02:43And, you know, he's not really close to coming back yet.
02:45And so what you have left is a team that is just a shell of its former self and it's
02:51playing like it.
02:52And I think inside there, there's an acceptance that they're playing out the string now.
03:00Now, it doesn't necessarily mean that there's no hope in the longer term that they aren't still potentially next year
03:05and beyond going to be a legitimate contender.
03:09But it has just completely changed the feeling about what this year could have been and now what it does
03:15feel like,
03:16which is very similar to what we felt like the last couple of years.
03:18I kind of felt like the buzzkill of a few weeks ago made it just kind of easier for them
03:25to go with this C.J. Abrams move
03:27and announce it publicly and tell him you might as well get all the bad news out right away or
03:34at least perceived bad news.
03:35And I'm not saying that it's not the right thing, but let's go there because C.J. Abrams, at least
03:41through his agent,
03:43is not happy about moving from shortstop to second base.
03:47So how will this play out?
03:50Yeah, we may find out tonight.
03:51This may be his first chance to play second base later tonight.
03:55We'll see.
03:56Blake Buter, you know, said he just wants to make sure that Abrams has gotten enough work there
04:02and that he feels comfortable with it.
04:03And I give him credit that he's not just going to force this on him.
04:06He wants C.J. himself to acknowledge that he's ready to give this a shot.
04:12So it may happen tonight, if not maybe tomorrow, but certainly within the next few days he's going to play
04:17there.
04:17I think the overarching thing here, we've known for a long time that most people did not view him as
04:27a shortstop in the long term.
04:30The numbers suggested, even if you just watch him play, you compare him to other shortstops in the big leagues,
04:35he just doesn't make the same plays.
04:37A lot of others don't.
04:38I think what caught C.J. off guard, certainly, and I think a lot of people, was the timing of
04:43when they decided to do this.
04:45I figured, and I think a lot of people figured, this is something you do in the offseason and give
04:50him a full winter to both come to grips with it, you know, on his own terms,
04:56but also then to have a lot of time to start working there, go through a full spring training, and
05:01then, you know, you're finally ready on an opening day.
05:04As opposed to, well, we're going to try to do this in the course of like a week in season
05:08and now see how it goes.
05:10Now, I've heard arguments from the team's perspective, which is, number one, there was no perfect time to do this.
05:16If you know you're going to do it anyways, you might as well do it now.
05:20Maybe because the season's kind of gone south that there's less pressure and see how it goes.
05:29And now, by the end of this year, you have a better idea, is this the plan moving forward or
05:33not?
05:35And maybe it even gets some interest from other teams who might have looked at him as a trade target,
05:40but didn't view him as a shortstop.
05:42Well, if he's good at second base, maybe that changes the dynamic this winter in terms of any kind of
05:46trade offer.
05:47So, I think there's a lot of factors at play, but it's not as smooth a transition as I think
05:53anybody would have hoped it would be,
05:55because I think it's pretty clear he's not 100% on board with making the switch.
05:59And you can understand why he was just a month ago voted in as the starting shortstop in the National
06:05League.
06:06Yeah, well, I mean, based on his offensive.
06:08And a class of some of the biggest names in the game, and he beat them all out, and deservedly
06:12so.
06:13And a month later, the team is telling you, well, wait, actually, you're not a shortstop.
06:18Yeah, I mean, this is where I would lean on you.
06:22He's 25 years old.
06:25He's tied for second in the big leagues and RBIs.
06:29He's still top 10, I believe, in home runs.
06:31He's having a great season.
06:33He's really come into his own offensively.
06:35The idea that moving him to second may make him more enticing as a trade target bothers me as a
06:41Nats fan,
06:41because some of these moves seemed like moves that indicated they thought they're actually closer to contending for a postseason
06:52spot next year or the year after.
06:54Well, you don't do that without C.J. Abrams and his offense, do you?
06:58No, I wouldn't think so, unless you're just getting big-time major league players in return.
07:04And, you know, I don't want to make it sound like I think that's a foregone conclusion that's going to
07:08happen,
07:09but just in terms of, like, different reasons why maybe they would make this move now as opposed to waiting
07:15is that it could tie into, you know, getting other teams looking at him now as a second baseman instead.
07:23But, you know, I think where it gets fascinating is, you just outlined the numbers.
07:28He's ninth in the National League in war, okay?
07:31He has been incredibly valuable in spite of his defense.
07:36And I've been trying to think back myself, like, is there a game this year they lost because of the
07:41defense's mistake on him?
07:42I don't feel like there has been.
07:44Like, yes, he's not been great out there, but I don't feel like that's actually cost them any games.
07:51So, one respect to say, just play this out.
07:54Like, he's having such a great year.
07:58Why would you mess with that?
07:59Especially for a guy who we know in the recent years has fallen off in the second half dramatically.
08:05And now you're going to throw this whole wrench into it.
08:08Now, maybe you also have to say to yourself, if C.J. Abrams is ever going to be the player
08:14that we believe he can be,
08:16and, you know, get a nine-figure contract, whether that's with the Nationals or somebody else,
08:22and be a key player on a playoff team, he's got to be able to overcome these things
08:28and be able to deal with things that don't go his way.
08:31So, you know, he's got to prove that he can play well for six months.
08:34So maybe there's some of that here, too.
08:36Let's see how he handles all of this.
08:39But it does create just kind of an unexpected and maybe unnecessary dynamic here late in a season
08:47that has already kind of gone off the rails.
08:50Yeah.
08:51I mean, you look at sort of the stats that are just shortstop specific.
08:57He's not ranked very high as a defensive shortstop.
09:00That's for sure.
09:02I just couldn't imagine going into next year with right now what would be, I think,
09:07increased expectations from Nats fans based on what they did, you know, prior to the trade deadline
09:13and then having the same excitement level if C.J. Abrams were gone.
09:18And I understand that you're not predicting that, but just suggesting that one of the benefits that might come
09:23is better offers if they were interested with him at second base.
09:27By the way, what is the latest on James Wood?
09:31It's been slow progress.
09:34You know, anytime you hear the term oblique with a baseball player, you kind of know this is not a
09:41short-term injury.
09:41And I know they tried to make it sound like, oh, it might be a minimal day.
09:45It very rarely is.
09:48He's not shut down.
09:49I was watching him yesterday pregame.
09:51He's running in the outfield.
09:52He's taking drills.
09:54He's not started swinging yet.
09:56That's the main thing if you have an oblique because the swing is what can turn that into a major
10:00injury.
10:02So, you know, he's not done for the year, I don't believe.
10:06But that idea of, well, he'd just be out a couple of weeks.
10:09No, I think we're still several weeks away.
10:11He's probably going to end up missing at least a month with it.
10:13And, you know, I'm not saying that that would have saved their season if he didn't suffer the injury.
10:19But, boy, it was like, let's just add one more thing to this.
10:23You've already lost two of your best hitters via trade.
10:28And now your best hitter goes down, too.
10:30And so I do feel for C.J.
10:32Because all of a sudden he's the one proven hitter in this lineup.
10:38And they are still the highest scoring team in baseball.
10:41I don't know if that's going to last for a bunch longer because what else they have around C.J.
10:45at the moment is not all that inspiring.
10:49You know, Luis Garcia Jr. had a home run in his first game against the Cardinals,
10:54a game they ended up losing.
10:55He has been horrible since.
10:58He hasn't hit his weight since joining the Yankees after that first night.
11:04So maybe they were right to do it, at least in terms of evaluating this season as like an aberration
11:14season for him.
11:18I forgot to ask you one thing about C.J. Abrams.
11:22What is, help quantify the difference in, you know, value in terms of compensation, shortstop, second base?
11:31Yeah.
11:32So, I mean, if you're wondering why would he not be on board with this, even if he deep down
11:37knows that he's, you know, not a great defensive shortstop.
11:40Well, shortstop is the premier position in baseball, certainly in the infield.
11:45And if you just look at the highest paid players at each of these positions, the top shortstops in the
11:51majors are getting $30 to $35 million a year.
11:55The top second basemen are making $20 to $25 million a year.
11:58So it's not hyperbole to suggest that this was like a $100 million decision by the Nationals that could cost
12:05him that much.
12:06Now, the caveat to that is it was some team going to pay him $30, $35 million a year to
12:13be a shortstop in the long run?
12:15I don't know that anybody would have done that.
12:17And so this may have just been inevitable regardless.
12:22But as much as like we just sort of philosophically think of, oh, shortstop, that's where you put your best
12:28player in second base is a lesser position.
12:31It bears out when you look at how teams pay these players too.
12:35And of course, if you're him and you're his agent, you know that deep down in the back of your
12:39mind.
12:39And you're basically now acknowledging that he's not going to make nearly as much in the next contract as he
12:45probably hoped he would.
12:47There seemed to have been some buzz over Jackson Kent, the big lefty.
12:53Not a good start.
12:55These first two starts, I mean, he's been lit up.
12:57His ERA is approaching 10, I think.
13:01Some disappointment, you know, in watching his first two starts?
13:04Or is it just typical of, you know, a new guy and some expectations?
13:10No, it's disappointing.
13:12I mean, eight walks in fewer than eight innings, that's not good.
13:16Huge pitch counts all over the place.
13:18And I think, you know, we all want something to cling to.
13:22And when you hear them say, oh, hey, here's this young prospect, pitching prospect, and we know that they're so
13:26short on that.
13:27Something to get excited about.
13:29Let's be clear.
13:30He was not some kind of elite prospect.
13:33Maybe within their organization, he was one of their higher rank guys.
13:37But it's like he's not one of the top 100 prospects in baseball or anything like that.
13:41He was only drafted two years ago, so he's still very inexperienced.
13:45He just looks like a guy who's not ready for the big leagues, to me.
13:48Now, I understand why they did it.
13:50And you might as well keep putting him out there and see how it goes the rest of the season.
13:55But I think even in a best-case scenario, this was not going to be the future number one, number
13:59two starter for this team.
14:00This is just maybe somebody who's part of a big league rotation.
14:04Right now, they're trying to cling to anything they can in terms of future pieces.
14:09The two legit pitching prospects to keep an eye on, and unfortunately, this is more down the road, but Harleen
14:16Susana, who came over in the Juan Soto trade, and Travis Sikora, a higher pick from a few years ago.
14:22They're both recovering from injuries.
14:23Sikora has started a rehab assignment in the minors.
14:26That's good.
14:27Sikora had Tommy John.
14:28It's going to be next year before we see him.
14:30But those are the two to keep an eye on in the long run, along with Cade Cavalli, who could
14:35become the front-line starters, we'll quote.
14:37Well, that was my next question.
14:39Has there been a bigger, positive takeaway this season than the way Cade Cavalli has pitched?
14:48At this moment, no.
14:50That's certainly it.
14:51Earlier, you would have said, hey, Luis Garcia, what a development.
14:54CJ's first half has been great.
14:56But, yeah, I think we tend to forget that Cavalli's been around a long time, but he was hurt for
15:01almost all of it.
15:02And so he was such an unknown coming into this year.
15:05Number one, could he just stay healthy?
15:07Number two, could he be productive as a big league pitcher?
15:10Well, what he's doing is he's consistently getting better start after start after start.
15:15His last one, he had a no-hitter in the seventh inning.
15:18That's not something we've seen happen around here in a long time.
15:22His last, like, seven, eight starts have all been outstanding.
15:27He's pitching tonight here against the Rangers.
15:30That has been such an important development because what they really need, above all else, is pitching.
15:37And here's a homegrown player who's finally coming into his own.
15:42And not just pitching well, but, like, carries himself like you would want a young ace to carry himself.
15:48He views himself as the leader of the staff, and it's just been great to see for so many people
15:53who've watched him through this whole process just to finally get back to this.
15:57It's been such an encouraging thing to see that happen.
16:00Yeah.
16:01Pitches tonight, as you mentioned, against Texas.
16:04Really, right now, for the remainder of this season, that's probably the primary reason to watch is when he's getting
16:12a start because he has been lights out recently.
16:15By the way, I just looked this up after mentioning because I've been sort of following the Garcia thing and
16:20his troubles with the Yankees.
16:23Foster Griffin's actually pitched really well for the Indians in two of his last two starts, one earned run each
16:31time.
16:31He's up to 14-4 now on the season with that ERA down to 3.18.
16:39All right.
16:39What am I missing?
16:41Anything in terms of any of the new players recently acquired and how they're doing?
16:47Do you have anything on that?
16:49Yeah.
16:49Here's what I'll say.
16:50We were just talking about Luis Garcia, and, of course, that's a big loss for them.
16:54But I'll tell you what.
16:55The guy who replaced him, Abimelech Ortiz, has been outstanding so far.
17:00And it's only, like, 15 games that he's played.
17:02He came in the McKenzie Gore trade from the Rangers, and while they had others in that trade that were
17:08more highly touted, they were several years away from the big leagues.
17:12We haven't seen any of them yet.
17:13Ortiz was the guy who was closest to big league ready.
17:16He tore it up at AAA.
17:18They brought him up after the Garcia trade, and he's hitting the cover off the ball.
17:23And you don't know for sure if that's sustainable.
17:27Excuse me.
17:27Sustainable.
17:28We got to see it over a longer period of time.
17:31But he's got a really good eye at the plate.
17:32He hits for power.
17:33He hit five homers in his first 14 big league games.
17:36He hit a couple of them to the opposite field, which is a great sign as well.
17:41And what they've done is combine Ortiz, who's left-handed, with Andres Chaparro, who's right-handed.
17:46And their production combined between them, they've more than made up for the loss of Garcia.
17:50As far as that is to believe they could do that, they actually have so far.
17:53So that's an encouraging sign that maybe it is possible to replace some of these guys they've traded away,
18:00that they have good young players waiting, knocking on the door in the minors.
18:05And the coaching staff, the front office, has done a good job of putting them in a position to succeed
18:11and getting the most out of these players.
18:12Thank you very much.
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