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00:00Detroit's great. We've got a real history with Detroit, obviously.
00:03You know, we've recorded live stuff there and we've got a history with it, you know.
00:08Rock, metal, frog, and everything in between.
00:11Welcome to this episode of Talkin' Rock with Meltdown.
00:15Don't forget to follow the audio-only Talkin' Rock podcast on all podcast platforms.
00:20And now, it's time for today's conversation. Here's Meltdown.
00:24Phil, great to talk to you. How's things, man?
00:27Great to talk to you. Wonderful. You know, I'm actually taking a little break.
00:31We just, Def Leppard just finished a European tour.
00:34We finished up with a festival in Germany called Wacken, which is like a metal festival, but it was so
00:40brilliant.
00:41We just loved it. And, of course, it rained when we went on stage.
00:45And, you know, it'd been like beautiful sun and that's kind of typical, but we had a blast.
00:50And then we kick off in South America in October.
00:55October, yeah.
00:56And don't you have, do you have a residency coming up or no?
00:59We've always got a residency coming up.
01:01So, yeah.
01:02We finished one in February.
01:04It was at Caesars Palace in Vegas, which was great.
01:08Hopefully, we go back to, we had such a brilliant time.
01:10And, as I kept saying to everyone, at least two of them shows were in the top five shows we've
01:17ever done in our career.
01:18They were really, really brilliant, as were some of the stuff we just did in Europe, especially in Manchester for
01:24some reason.
01:25That was mind-blowingly great.
01:28So, yeah, I mean, that's a good sign.
01:31You know, I never thought that would happen, that you could actually say, you know, a few years in, you're
01:35doing your best gigs ever.
01:36Yeah, a few years in.
01:38So, wait a second.
01:39What made those gigs so great?
01:42Just the energy, how relaxed we were.
01:44Like, in the last night of Vegas, me, Joe, and Sav were in the audience.
01:50We were just walking around the audience playing guitar, singing, and people high-fiving or touching you and slapping you.
01:56Not hard, but just a vibe.
01:59You know, there was just an energy there that went both ways.
02:02And the same thing with the European tour, especially for some reason, Manchester.
02:07You know, Sheffield was great.
02:09That's where the band's from.
02:10I'm from London.
02:11O2 Arena was spectacular.
02:13But I just think that Manchester, for whatever reason, had the edge.
02:18There's some great footage.
02:20Nuno Bettencourt from Xtreme would come up with us every night and jam, and that was great.
02:27And the last night of that, the arena part, was Paris.
02:30And again, the reviews were just stunning.
02:34You know, Le Monde, which is a French newspaper, it was like one of the best reviews you've ever had
02:39in France, and especially from an actual newspaper, it was actually really cool.
02:44That's great.
02:45So, you know, when people come to see you, like when you're in Vegas or whatnot, people fly from all
02:51over the world.
02:51So those are diehard Def Leppard fans.
02:54Of course, when people come to see you here in Detroit or wherever, those are Def Leppard fans too.
02:58But you think that they've kind of risked more to go see you guys in Vegas, so maybe they're bigger
03:03fans, huh?
03:04I think they are.
03:05I think there is that.
03:06And I think that that opens that up as well.
03:09But like I said, you know, no reason why Manchester should be like, none of us are from there.
03:14It was like, wow.
03:16But Detroit's great.
03:17We've got a real history with Detroit, obviously.
03:19You know, we've recorded live stuff there, and we've got a history with it, you know, all the going back.
03:25So, no, love it.
03:26Yeah.
03:26I was just talking with, what's his name from Tesla here, Frank Cannon.
03:31Yes.
03:31And he was telling me about that tour, the Hysteria tour.
03:34That's like the tour that folklore is made of, isn't it?
03:39Without a doubt.
03:40Without a doubt.
03:41You know, we did that.
03:42We were in, was it in, somewhere it was in Wyoming, or it was Casper, Wyoming we were in,
03:52which is like a population of about five, but we sold out the arena.
03:58And Brian Wheat, this was before, he said, I think Hysteria's going to go 12 times platinum.
04:04I'm like, really?
04:05He said, yeah, I think it is.
04:07And there you go.
04:08She went 13 times platinum in the US.
04:10So, yeah, great.
04:10We'll take it.
04:12Yeah, that is awesome.
04:13Well, speaking of, you know, stuff you've been doing, you talked about how you're taking a little bit of time
04:18off,
04:18but you still are doing things right now.
04:20It's Man Raz, Lock, Stock, and Barrel, The Complete Recordings.
04:23I was supposed to talk to you about this a couple months ago.
04:25That came out in May, so tell me about that.
04:28We had all this material I didn't know.
04:30We had two albums out.
04:31Man Raz is me, Paul Cook, the drummer from the Sex Pistols,
04:35and Simon Laffey was the bass player in my band, Girl, that we were in this kind of post-punk
04:40glam metal band, if you like.
04:43So we just got together over 20 years ago.
04:47It was around the time my dad was dying.
04:49He had terminal cancer, and I was just with him in London.
04:53And Simon would come over because he knew my dad and say hi, and we just started writing songs.
04:57And I literally said, oh, Paul Cook would be great on this track.
05:02And literally, two days later, I took my dad to the hospital.
05:06I come out, and there's Paul Cook getting in his car.
05:09And I said, oh, your ears must be burning.
05:11I said, I've just been saying it'd be great if we got together and played.
05:15We'd never played before.
05:16And he said, yeah, that'd be cool.
05:18So we went to this little rehearsal room, and bang, it really clicked.
05:22And one of the songs that we recorded in a little demo studio was a song called – I forget
05:29what it's called now.
05:31Is that Surrender?
05:32No, no, that was the latest one.
05:34There was one – I forget.
05:37Anyway, I'll remember it in a minute.
05:38Anyway, we recorded this, and that never got put on an album.
05:42So that's part of this five-CD box set with instrumentals, live tracks, and the first two albums,
05:49and songs that weren't released, like I Surrender.
05:52So, yeah.
05:53Yeah, Surrender, to me, has this kind of pop sensibility, almost like a Tears for Fears type thing,
05:59especially around the chorus.
06:01Do you get that?
06:02Yeah, absolutely.
06:03I think there was a –
06:06Yeah.
06:07All of that stuff, which I'd pretty much taken from Marvin Gaye.
06:12It was like that kind of – because he could get up there and do that.
06:15And doing it in a rock song, it's kind of cool, you know.
06:20And obviously, Detroit, Motown and all that stuff, you've obviously been to the Motown house.
06:28And just some of the stuff that came out there and some of the beautiful singing songs
06:32and the whole thing, it was like, yeah, just incredible.
06:35So, yeah, the influences go all over the show.
06:38But I can definitely hear the Tears for Fears thing as well.
06:42What is like the unwritten rule in Def Leppard as far as outside projects?
06:47Do you guys have any?
06:48No.
06:49No, you can do whatever.
06:50And I think we're actually getting to the point where some of the inside projects,
06:54some of the Def Leppard stuff, we're kind of taking some of the restrictions away
06:59that you have over the years.
07:01I mean, Queen, Prince, The Beatles, all of those bands, David Bowie,
07:09you know, they didn't have any restrictions and that was great.
07:12So, we're learning to chill out a little bit and do that.
07:16And it becomes way more enjoyable.
07:20Obviously, you do have guidelines.
07:22You have parameters.
07:23You say, yeah, we can't.
07:24Like in Def Leppard, we couldn't do a reggae song, for example.
07:27But Man Raise, I can.
07:29Yeah.
07:29And we do, you know, it's like, yeah, it's like, the police were my favorite band.
07:34And so, they would dunk into reggae all the time.
07:37So, but still keep this kind of rock edge.
07:39So, we do that.
07:41You know, you learn from your heroes and we kind of try and apply it all.
07:45But like if, I don't know, just throwing this out there, Metallica said,
07:49hey, Phil, we want you to rip a guitar solo on this song.
07:51You don't have to ask anybody.
07:53Just kind of just do what you want.
07:54Oh, no, no, that'd be great.
07:56Let us know when it is.
07:57I want to hear it.
07:58So, yeah, for sure.
07:59That would be great.
08:00Yeah.
08:00And I saw recently that you were talking about the upcoming music that you're
08:04working on right now, which might drop at 27.
08:06Is that right?
08:07Well, we are Def Leppard, so hopefully.
08:09But, yeah, don't promise in anything, you know.
08:12Yeah.
08:13And you were talking about how it is so diverse.
08:16You guys are just taking chances, doing different things.
08:18You're at that point in your career.
08:19Just throw it all up and see what sticks, eh?
08:22Absolutely.
08:22I mean, you have to see what it's like at the end.
08:24But if it's all in context, that's the thing.
08:27But I like the approach of us not even taking chances, but just, like,
08:35following your flow.
08:37You know, some of our favorite bands, they would do that.
08:40You know, when Freddie Mercury came up with Bohemian Napsid,
08:43everyone thought he was insane.
08:45But it wasn't.
08:46It was genius.
08:47And so there are a bit of that.
08:50You learn from, like I said, you learn from your heroes.
08:53So we take some of that on board.
08:55Did you see that?
08:56Did you see the biopic Bohemian Rhapsody?
08:59Did you watch it?
08:59I did.
09:00I loved it.
09:01And I thought Remy, who played, you know, Freddie, was amazing.
09:07I thought he kind of nailed it.
09:09You know, it was beautiful.
09:10So, yeah, no, it was really cool.
09:12I enjoyed it.
09:13Do you know those guys?
09:15Absolutely.
09:16Yeah.
09:16I mean, you know, Brian, you know, inducted us into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
09:20That's right.
09:20Yeah.
09:20Hello.
09:21That's right.
09:21And I saw them when they were an opening act.
09:25I saw them opening for Mott the Hoopla at Hammersmith Odeon in London.
09:29You know, just left school and I think I was at school.
09:32But, yeah, it was back in the day.
09:34So it was great.
09:35And love Queen.
09:37You know, we based our sound on, you know, crossing Queen with ACDC and kind of seeing how that kind
09:44of worked out.
09:45And that's really our blueprint, really.
09:47And there is a little bit of Mott and a little bit of Ian Hunter and a little bit of
09:51a lot of things thrown in David Bowie.
09:53I mean, all sorts of stuff.
09:55Definitely.
09:55Definitely.
09:56Yeah.
09:56I totally forgot about it.
09:58Yeah.
09:58Brian may ever talk you into trying to play a guitar with one of his metal picks or I guess
10:02his coins, right?
10:03I've been using metal picks ever since.
10:06Yeah.
10:07I actually gave him one of my brass ones.
10:09I got these brass picks that my friend Rudy gave to me years ago.
10:13And I'd got a brass one when I was in Gurley in 1980.
10:17And this Chinese session guitar player gave me this coin that was rubbed down into a guitar pick.
10:24And I was like, oh, my God, it changed the sound.
10:26And it kind of just is more aggressive.
10:28I use really heavy strings and thick necks and everything.
10:31And it just it changes the sound.
10:35But, yeah, Brian May was a huge influence on that because I knew he'd done that.
10:39And I used to use steel ones, but I'm back to the brass ones now.
10:44Gotcha.
10:44Yeah.
10:44You know, Brad Gillis showed me his guitar picks.
10:46They got the little divot in them, their metal.
10:48And he's got about three of them.
10:50He doesn't, you know, he doesn't throw them out in the crowd.
10:52But, yeah.
10:53So we've we traded guitar picks, me and Brad, actually.
10:56I gave him, I think, yeah, one of my brass ones.
10:59And he gave me one of them for sure.
11:01Yeah.
11:02Yeah.
11:02And like I said, for people who don't know, he's got that divot in there.
11:05So he kind of knows what they are.
11:06They don't and they don't like fall out of his fingers.
11:08Yeah.
11:09No, mine fall out of my fingers all the time.
11:11So I'm constantly dropping.
11:13And they're like they're like a dollar a pop or probably even more than that.
11:17So I'm like searching on the floor, you know, trying to look cool.
11:20Are you getting on your knees?
11:21Yeah.
11:22Yeah.
11:22Your road guys have to have some sort of magnets out there.
11:25Absolutely.
11:25Yeah.
11:27But, yeah.
11:28Not only are you doing it, you know, you're talking about this, this manras also,
11:31but you also got this crossbone scully, another product that you're kind of working on.
11:36And so I guess this all goes back to what I was talking about a few minutes ago.
11:39It's like, you know, you can just do whatever you want to do.
11:42Pretty much.
11:43I mean, that one in particular, it's got Mutt Lang singing on it as well.
11:45He's doing backing vocals on the Midnight.
11:49And we're both singing on the, with Tommy as well, who is crossbone scully.
11:55We're singing on the, whoa, whoa, whoa.
12:00You know, we all sing these kind of that sound together.
12:03And that's very much a Mutt Lang type thing, you know.
12:06So I was overjoyed when he asked me if I wanted to play on it and sing on it as
12:11well.
12:11So he was getting the team back together, getting the band back together.
12:15Yeah, I've already asked you a lot of stupid questions, Dave, but I'm going to ask you one more.
12:21How big was Mutt Lang in the success of Def Leppard in the 80s?
12:26Probably about 99%.
12:28Really?
12:29Yeah, yeah.
12:30Everything.
12:31He talks how to sing.
12:31He talks how to play guitar.
12:33He sings on every song we've ever done.
12:35He does backing vocals.
12:37He's got the best singing voice out of all of us put together.
12:41And he sings on everything he does.
12:43I mean, I even hear him on, I'm on a highway to hell.
12:47His backing vocals are on that and all the Brian Adams stuff, you know, Shania Twain stuff.
12:53Obviously, all of our stuff.
12:54And, yeah, you hear him on Foreigner, I think, on The Cars.
12:58He's just got a great voice.
13:00You know, it's just amazing.
13:01Well, I didn't realize he did so many projects like that.
13:05I know he obviously worked with them.
13:06But back in the 80s, you guys were putting on records.
13:09And then I think there was like a gap of three or four years before you dropped Hysteria.
13:13Am I right?
13:14Yeah, yeah.
13:15And, of course, nowadays, it's kind of commonplace not putting on a record for seven or eight years.
13:19But back in the 80s, that really wasn't commonplace.
13:21Did you guys really just buckle down?
13:23And did you know that, you know, you talked about, you know, Brian Wee telling you about this record is
13:28going to sell.
13:29But you guys put everything into that record.
13:31And could you feel that there was something going on with that album?
13:33Well, not that we did, but when it came out, it was like it kind of stiffed initially.
13:37It kind of tanked.
13:38And we had to sell four million to break even.
13:42And it kind of stalled around three million, which is still a lot.
13:45But, you know, you go and then Pour Some Sugar On Me came out and like the fourth or fifth
13:50single.
13:51And it changed everything, you know.
13:53Yeah.
13:54And so with what's his name there, with Mutt Lang, did you know, you said that he helped you guys,
14:00you know, record and sing and this kind of thing.
14:02He was a real hands-on producer.
14:06Everything.
14:06His best producer in the world, like songwriter as well.
14:08It's like this.
14:09You'd come to him and you go, I've got this chorus.
14:12They go, OK, well, that's not strong enough for a chorus.
14:14We could use that for a middle eight or a bridge or something like that.
14:17But, yeah, we need a stronger chorus.
14:19And he'd come and he'd write with us as well.
14:20So that was a great thing.
14:22And we've got 11 songs.
14:25And he heard Joe playing acoustic.
14:27And he's like, what's that?
14:28He goes, I don't know.
14:29He's going, pour some sugar on me.
14:32And it's like, well, stop.
14:33So we went in, took about 10 days to do that song.
14:36We stopped everything.
14:37And Mutt just kind of orchestrated the whole thing.
14:40So, no, he was very, very active in everything we did.
14:45And most of the bands that he worked with, he was very much, he did that kind of thing with
14:50everyone.
14:50Yeah, because I've talked with guys recently where they're like, yeah, the producer we had didn't do much.
14:56Mutt does everything.
14:57Yeah.
14:57Everything.
14:58And he would play stuff.
14:59He would play something on a guitar.
15:01He'd go, we'll play this.
15:02And you hand him the guitar and it's like, I can't play that.
15:06You know, it'd be like insane.
15:08Or sing it.
15:09He'll sing this.
15:09He'd be like, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.
15:12Or whatever.
15:13And you're like, really?
15:14And he does it just like one take.
15:16It's amazing.
15:16So, yeah.
15:17Now, who's helping you with the upcoming record?
15:20Do you have any else?
15:21No, we do it all ourselves.
15:22We've learned so much from him.
15:24And Ronan McHugh, who's been with us for almost 30 years, is our out front sound.
15:30He is our producer, co-producer, engineer.
15:33He does all that.
15:34And so, you know, I record at home.
15:37Actually, the Diamond Star Halos, me and Joe would send ideas to each other.
15:43And then I was in California.
15:46I was in Dublin.
15:47And then we'd send our finished ideas to Ronan.
15:50And then he'd just hook it up.
15:51And before you know it, the track's kind of good to go.
15:54So, we keep that flow going, you know.
15:57Yeah.
15:57Yeah.
15:57Sometimes you probably think, what would Mutt do?
16:00Oh, absolutely.
16:02Yeah.
16:02Yeah, yeah.
16:03Or you'd ask him, you know, and he'd go, yeah, well, I would do this.
16:06So, yeah.
16:07Yeah.
16:07I was talking about this on the radio the other day.
16:09I know you guys were recording some tracks in the basement of the casinos you were in.
16:14Is that right?
16:14We were, just to get sounds, really.
16:17Just kind of, because it had such a wonderful ambient sound.
16:22So, there was, yeah, just, you know, drum things and, you know, whether it gets used as another thing.
16:28But, yeah, it was down there and it actually sounded cool.
16:30Now, are you walking by, like, the help and stuff?
16:33Do people are carrying linen and utensils?
16:34Are you walking by with no shirt on and just your guitar?
16:36Or how does that work?
16:38No, I mean, I'm wearing clothes right now.
16:41But, yeah.
16:43I'm jumping in the shower in a minute.
16:45So, I'm probably, after that, probably not.
16:47Yeah.
16:47And it's baking outside.
16:48I mean, I'm in New York and it's like.
16:53Oh, yeah.
16:54Yeah.
16:55Look at that.
16:56I need to bust your chops.
16:57You're in great shape, man.
16:58I'll tell you what.
16:59Oh, thank you.
17:00Almost 69 years old you're going to be this year, huh?
17:02Wow.
17:03That's right.
17:03Yeah.
17:03Wow.
17:05Man.
17:06I'll tell you what.
17:08No, I'm sorry.
17:09Go ahead.
17:10Oh, but it's a chore.
17:12You have to keep it.
17:13It's a lot harder.
17:14You have to eat less, exercise more.
17:17And it's like.
17:18For less of an effect.
17:20So, you really want to do it.
17:21You've got to really go overboard.
17:23So, yeah.
17:25Well, like someone once told me, Jeff Tate.
17:27I asked him, I go, how do you keep your singing voice in check?
17:30He goes, you got to use it.
17:31I suppose that's the same with everything in life, right?
17:34Definitely.
17:35And not injure it in the process.
17:37Like, you know, if you're working out.
17:39Or the vocal.
17:40We do vocal warm-ups.
17:42So, Joe will do at least three hours every day.
17:44Every show.
17:45Yeah.
17:46And I do an hour, hour and a half every day.
17:49You know.
17:49Wow.
17:50It's a bit under the weather.
17:52You end up doing more.
17:53We all do it.
17:54Everyone in the band sings.
17:55So, yeah.
17:56Wow.
17:56That's impressive.
17:57Well, I'll tell you what.
17:58This man, Raz Zauer, now Lock, Stock and Barrel, Crossbone Scully as well.
18:03And, Joe, always great to have you here in Detroit.
18:06And maybe you'll see it here coming up in the future.
18:07And good luck with everything in 2027.
18:10Well, thank you so much.
18:11Check out Talkin' Rock with Meltdown on all podcast platforms and WRIF.com.
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