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Nationals Pitching Coach Simon Matthews breaks down how Cade Cavalli's mastery of his two breaking pitches has vastly improved his fastball.
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00:00The pitching coach for the Washington Nationals who's been behind the development
00:04and the productivity of Cade Cavalli this season is Simon Matthews.
00:08Hoya Saxa, a Georgetown Hoya's legend, Danny.
00:11Simon Matthews.
00:12Absolutely.
00:13I want to talk to him about a couple of his impressive performances,
00:15including in the Cape that I've heard some good things about.
00:19But, Simon, thanks for a few minutes here on GND.
00:20How are you?
00:22Yeah, thanks, guys, for having me.
00:24Always a pleasure.
00:25What's a pleasure, buddy?
00:25Let's talk Cade Cavalli's just growth here.
00:29I mean, he really, truly is starting to look like a number one.
00:33When you see a guy on this kind of run, 10 quality starts in 11,
00:37the strikeout totals piling up, what is he doing better of late?
00:42I think he's just been really mature all year about sort of fighting off one thing at a time
00:51and trying to really dominate, you know, the next step in his progression,
00:56the next step in his development.
00:59For a little while there, that was, right, like,
01:02he wasn't getting through bulk innings all the time, every time out,
01:06and that's our number one, especially early on in the year,
01:09like, as we were figuring out how things were going to go, right,
01:12like, figuring out how to be a little bit more efficient,
01:14get through bulk innings.
01:16And then, you know, he started navigating kind of your arsenal, right,
01:25figuring out really what it is he was going to use each one of his pitches.
01:30And of late recently, it's just been about coming out and making sure that he takes control of the energy
01:37of the game.
01:39I think a couple years ago when we played the Blue Jays at home and Max Scherzer had that outing
01:47where, you know,
01:48he didn't go deep in the game, but, you know, come hell or high water, he wasn't giving it up
01:53to us.
01:55It was just, there was a way he controlled the energy of that game,
01:58and I think that was really good for Cade to watch that and how he went about that
02:04and figure out, you know, in the context of what it is he does and what it is he does
02:08as well,
02:08how he can be that guy for us.
02:10I'm going to throw Simon on Holden.
02:11Derris is going to try to work out whatever's going on with the phone,
02:14but I think that's a really good observation.
02:16Yeah.
02:16Which is, we've talked about this, the difference sometimes in the stuffy, really talented young arms
02:22that can throw the ball past people and the really quality pitcher who's a front-line type starter
02:28is on that day when you don't have your best stuff, being able to figure it out and go hang
02:32six innings.
02:33Well, even beyond that, what do you do well?
02:34And he throws 97 miles an hour.
02:36That's where his average fastball is.
02:37And yet, his fastball gets hit just when he, if he tries to throw it by people.
02:42That's what I want to ask Simon Matthews about here in a moment, is to figure that part of it
02:45out.
02:45And he's back, so ask him.
02:47Yeah, so Simon, for someone with that kind of an arm, talking about Cavalli and his average fastballs
02:51around 97 miles an hour, obviously that's not the issue, but that fastball gets hit
02:55relative to his other offerings, and he's been pinpointing in terms of tunneling
03:00and kind of mixing and matching, but I want you to piggyback off your previous answer
03:04where you're talking about what he does well.
03:07It seems like he's leaning into things that aren't his fastball,
03:09and now that fastball's turned more into a weapon here of lead.
03:12I'd love for you to speak to that.
03:13Yeah, I think that's exactly right, right?
03:17Like, velocity in today's game is kind of more necessary, more it's the beginning of your ticket
03:29to the dance than anything else, right?
03:31And so he's got that elite velocity, but it's not elite velocity just itself that makes the
03:40overpowering fastball, and he's done a lot of really diligent work to improve the movement,
03:45especially on his four-seam fastball.
03:47He's getting the hang of some grip adjustments he's made over the course of the year with
03:53the sinker to be more consistent with that pitch, right?
03:56But, like, the thing that makes Cade Cavalli special is those two breaking balls and the ability to throw those.
04:04And so, you know, if that's going to be what makes him special, that's what he's going to go down
04:08fighting with.
04:08And I think he's made that conscious decision to use those two pitches really aggressively to combo them off of
04:19each other.
04:20And then it's caused the fastball, like you said, to start playing up along with a lot of the work
04:25he's done
04:26to continue to improve the quality of that fastball.
04:29So, yeah, to that point, just to dive into the numbers a little bit and to get a little deeper
04:33into that,
04:34it's interesting because his four-seamer, which he throws a lot more to lefties, but especially against lefties,
04:40still gets hit at a rate that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
04:43I know his expected batting average is like 255 compared to the actual batting average, which is closer to 300.
04:48But his stuff, throwing around 97 and maybe it's more a shape of a pitch thing or whatever,
04:54like, I remember in AAA watching him sometimes and, you know, he'd have a start where he strikes out five
04:58or six
04:58and you're like, how's that not nine or ten with that stuff?
05:01And he's starting to do that.
05:02But it is odd to me that the fastball has gotten hit by lefties to the extent that it has.
05:07What's the difference between days where that's not happening and days where it is?
05:11A lot of times it's just the fine-tuning of command and location, right?
05:18If he's going to have a really good day, he's going to get his height right with his fastball.
05:22So if he's going down, it's down.
05:24If he's going up, it's up.
05:27But, I mean, this league can hit velocity right now, man.
05:31It's really impressive some of the work that even, you know, the 6, 7, 8 hitters in every lineup,
05:389 hitters in every lineup, like, they can all hit a fastball, man.
05:44And so if that's going to be the way things are, then Cade, when he's really good with the heater,
05:52especially getting his height right, then it can be an overpowering pitch.
05:56And then on the days when the height's not quite right, which have been fewer and farther between as of
06:03late,
06:04then, you know, he's going to be in business a little bit because it adds another thing that he can
06:11get guys to miss.
06:12Now it's pitching coach, Simon Matthews, kind of enough to join us here on G&D.
06:16So, I mean, it's not like I'm taking this for granted, Simon.
06:18This has been unbelievable and awesome.
06:20It's a treat to watch.
06:21But you can't help but wonder for a guy that doesn't have, you know, a million big league innings, what's
06:26next?
06:27Like, is there more growth in the tank for this guy who's just turned into a stud here in the
06:30second half especially?
06:32I think so.
06:33I think anybody who's spent some time around Cade, there's just a real seriousness about him just as a man,
06:42as a human being,
06:44that, you know, reminds me of some of the really great pitchers I've been around.
06:49Reminds, you know, Sean Doolittle and Bobby Wilson on our staff that have been around some unbelievable arms.
06:57Sean was one himself.
06:58Just like of what it takes to do this year in and year out.
07:03I don't want to take for granted just how difficult it is to put together one really good year, let
07:09alone two, three, four.
07:12But if there's a human being, if there's a man that's capable of deciding to put in that work and
07:18then doing it, it's Cade.
07:19So I'm going to bet on that guy, and I believe in him, you know, continuing to take steps forward.
07:29Simon Matthews, pitching coach with the Nationals, joining us here on Grant and Danny, talking Cade Cavalli, who's just been
07:36unbelievable.
07:36Lights out.
07:37Breaking run value is 97th percentile.
07:39Fastball velocity right now in the sport, 83rd percentile, and he's got a great ground ball rate.
07:44Strikeout rate's over 80th percentile.
07:46So if you wouldn't mind, let's talk Will Dion for a second.
07:49I'm really intrigued by him because I look at velocity first a lot of the times, and then I can
07:54kind of get into some of the metrics on movement and whatnot.
07:57And I'm not an expert like you guys are.
08:00But coming over, I'm like, okay, it's okay, big league stuff.
08:03But then you see his release and, like, how over-the-top he is, and there's a funkiness to him
08:08that I can't really explain watching him.
08:09Now, I'm not expecting him to only give up one hit every nine innings like he has.
08:13Nine strikeouts.
08:14He has been – I mean, he's thrown a no-hitter, basically, for you guys.
08:18He's been Mizorowski.
08:19But how is he so effective?
08:22I mean, he's pretty much like 91 and 93, right?
08:25Yeah, no, he's – you're definitely right with the funkiness, and I think he leans into it.
08:34It's just a weird angle for a good fastball that's got plus carry to it.
08:40He throws that kind of parachute-style changeup that not a ton of guys in the league throw.
08:47So, and so it's, you know, it's kind of a perfect storm of him just being a complete weirdo that
08:55he leans into, and it's been good for us.
08:59I love that.
09:00So, but just getting to that about trying to maximize what everybody does, right?
09:04So he's leaning into being, as you said, a weirdo with a parachute changeup, et cetera.
09:08In terms of your core philosophies versus what each guy maybe does well, how do you balance that as a
09:14pitching coach
09:14to kind of make each guy to turn the faders up to maximum on each player?
09:18Yeah, I think there's a reason why everybody's here, right?
09:24And so trying to be quick to understand what the sort of baseline reason why everybody's here is, right?
09:33So for Will, it's that fastball changeup combo, right?
09:37So we need to protect that with our life, right?
09:39He's got to be protective of that fastball shape of his delivery and how he gets to it
09:46and that changeup and his ability to kill velocity on it and execute it to both-sided hitters.
09:53And then beyond that, from a developmental standpoint, it's like, okay, what's a little seasoning we can put on this
10:00mix
10:03to get him to have even more success, right?
10:06So if you go to the butcher shop and buy a beautiful cut of meat, you're not going to immediately
10:11chop it up into little pieces, right?
10:14You're going to put some seasoning on it and you're going to try and put that beautiful cut of meat
10:20into a position to become a beautiful grilled steak, right?
10:24So I think that's ultimately what we're after, right?
10:29Like, what is it about this guy that makes him special, right?
10:33And then how can we add something here, tweak something there while preserving the things that are sort of innate
10:41to him
10:43and have him continue to grow and have more success in the big leagues?
10:48This is my happy place, Danny.
10:50So, like, when it's all over for me and they're just like, hey, where do you want to go back
10:54to?
10:54It's not going to be, like, you know, in the yard with the kids or something.
10:57It's going to be, like, that time Simon Matthews was comparing steak to, like, deep-dive baseball analytics.
11:03To, like, pitch and repertoire.
11:04Yeah.
11:06I'm not, I don't, I know you're busy and you're not following the minors with, like, Ben Grable,
11:10Joe Glass, E. Jack Siebert, and Josh Hartle and those guys.
11:13But I am curious, actually, now that we're talking about Deion.
11:16John, when you, when these trades happen, do they have you watch tape on any of these guys
11:22or, like, get your opinion on their stuff or anything?
11:24Or because you're the big league pitching coach, are you kind of out of that portion of it?
11:30No, absolutely.
11:31I think one of the real strengths of this group as we're building it out is some of the relationships
11:39that we're able to build just personally between the guys that are, you know, boots on the ground
11:46running that day-to-day and, you know, me as a big league pitching coach, right?
11:51So, you've got Grayson Crawford, the director of pitching.
11:54He and I are super tight.
11:55We talk every day.
11:58And Devin Pearson and Justin Horowitz, two of our assistant general managers,
12:04who are super involved with the trade deadline, as well as, obviously, Ani and Paul.
12:10We're all in constant communication.
12:13And those guys, just as much as me, I hope it comes through, like, we all just love ball, man.
12:20So, when we get a guy like a Joe Glassie is a great example, right?
12:24Devin Pearson is texting me, like, hey, you've got to pull up the video of Joe Glassie's first outing.
12:30It was unbelievable, right?
12:32And so, we're all just, like, getting excited about doing this together.
12:35And, you know, as our group grows and as our system improves and as we acquire some of these big
12:45pieces of the future, right?
12:46Like, we're all just, you know, sitting around the conference table prepping for the Rangers,
12:51but also getting fired up about the, you know, Ben Grable punching out four in one inning in his first
12:56inning in AA with us, right?
12:58Like, it's kind of all the same thing to us, right?
13:01Like, it's all the same work.
13:04It's all stuff that we're constantly talking about.
13:07And it's been a blast to do it with these guys.
13:09Yeah, Nats fans may not know because they're in the minors, but that group of arms,
13:13Grable, Glassie, Siebert, Hartle, who are some of the top guys you guys bring over at the deadline.
13:1829 and two-third innings and just three Ernie's in the minors so far.
13:21And the two future relievers may be in leverage spots, Grable and Glassie, who have crazy minor league numbers.
13:27Ten scoreless innings with a .5 whip so far and 13.5 strikeouts per nine.
13:32So, it's been really exciting.
13:34Those are all guys that aren't, like, in single A.
13:35They could impact the team next year.
13:38Simon Matthews is with us on Grant and Danny.
13:40We were talking about the breakout of Cade Cavalli here.
13:43On Brad Lord, he came up as a starter, was an org pitcher of the year before you were here,
13:49former 18th round pick, and it came into his own early this season.
13:52It felt like he was a multi-inning reliever.
13:54And now he's back almost out of necessity, maybe, kind of as the bulk guy starting games.
13:59Do you think, when we fast forward a couple years, like, where is he best?
14:05I don't know if I can answer that necessarily.
14:07I think when Blake and I had the conversation about sliding Brad into the rotation, you know,
14:17as you said, in some ways out of necessity, Blake put it, I think, in a great way where
14:23he's just like, I just think Brad's really good, so I want him to pitch.
14:27So, if that's in the rotation, I want Brad to pitch in the rotation.
14:30If that's bulk out of the pen, I want Brad to pitch bulk out of the pen.
14:33And I really believe in Brad's stuff.
14:38I believe in his ability to compete at this level.
14:41So, I think, ultimately, Brad's going to fall into his best role as our roster evolves over
14:50the next couple years.
14:51But, you know, he's something, whether it's announcing the starters for a series or calling
14:59down to the bullpen.
15:00And he's somebody we're really excited to put in the game.
15:03So, tell me about Jackson Kent.
15:04I'm a Jackson Kent guy.
15:05It's early, small sample, but it looks like a couple times maybe games, you know, sped up
15:10a little bit, lost the zone, more walks than you're kind of used to seeing from him.
15:13But I really like the profile.
15:15I'm much older than you.
15:16I like big 6'3", 220-pound pitchers.
15:20Like, it would look like a tight end room for me on my staff.
15:23I'm a Jackson Kent guy.
15:24What have you seen?
15:26Yeah, no, he's the real deal, and he's going to be fine.
15:29I think a lot of the conversations that he and I have had over the course of the last,
15:37you know, week, 10 days is, you know, it's gone fine for stretches up here, and it's gone
15:46less than fine for short stretches up here.
15:49But all the things that are between it going fine and it going really good are things that
15:56he's already done really well in his career, right?
16:00He controls the strike zone really well.
16:03You know, he's not going to be the guy that walks a ton of guys, right?
16:10Like, he got beat by, what, six ground ball singles here a couple days ago in Texas, right?
16:17And so, you know, you clean up a couple things execution-wise and start to learn the league.
16:26And I think he's going to be really good.
16:28But I'm with you, man, just not only looking at our staff now, but looking at our group
16:33in the minor leagues.
16:35I think we're getting close to that tight end room.
16:37I joke that we're going to lead the league at getting off the bus.
16:40All get off the bus, team, Simon.
16:42It's the biggest pitching staff ever.
16:45I mean, we were in the clubhouse.
16:46This was even last year before you guys were here.
16:48And, like, some of these dudes, and some of them aren't even around.
16:51But, like, you had to be 6'6 to be in the minor league side of your camp.
16:54It was wild how big the staff is.
16:57And I know the game's changing to an extent, and that's everywhere.
17:00Look, I want that little tiny fracas.
17:02Hopefully no punches, no suspensions.
17:04But bench is clear.
17:05Bullpen comes running in, and you notice our bullpen.
17:08You know what I mean?
17:09Like, everybody's big.
17:10Yeah, that's what I like.
17:11Absolutely.
17:12Absolutely.
17:14We joked in Colorado when we got into the little scrum that Eddie Yeen got there the
17:21next day, and they were lucky they got it in the day before he got there.
17:24Purposeful.
17:25Well, I was just at a commander's training camp, and they're down a couple de-tackles right
17:29now.
17:29So if Eddie Yeen's got nothing going on, they could probably use him.
17:34And he probably needs two or three weeks to learn the rules, and then he'd be fine.
17:38Yeah, exactly.
17:38Seriously.
17:40Stuff-wise, you guys were one of the only bullpens.
17:43I saw a stat a few weeks ago, and this no longer qualifies.
17:46But there were like 78 relievers this year that were averaging 98 and change out of the
17:52bullpen, and you guys didn't have any of them.
17:54And now you've added, obviously, a couple guys who do throw really, really hard.
17:59You just sent one down who's got to learn to throw some strikes.
18:02But I'm wondering about Luis Perales now coming out of the pen the last couple times.
18:05He had a two-inning outing where he struck out three, and it was like just absolutely
18:11bite-your-knuckles stuff the other night where he struck out five and had a 90% whiff
18:15rate on the splitter.
18:16Is that a role we could see him in this season, do you think?
18:19And what do you make of his stuff?
18:21Because he's kind of had a, I don't want to say a disappointing season, but I've been
18:23a little surprised by some of the numbers this year.
18:26I'm an absolute Luis Perales believer.
18:29Um, I think he's a killer.
18:32Um, I think the stuff is obviously unbelievable.
18:36Jump off the page at you.
18:37Um, I mean, you know, I don't, I don't pretend to know exactly what we're going to do with
18:45him over the course of the next five, six weeks.
18:48Like what I can tell you is like, we're going to make sure we get this one right.
18:53Because when we get this thing really rolling, Luis Perales is going to be running out of
18:58our bullpen to punch tickets.
18:59Right.
18:59So like, um, he's, he's on a bit of a heater right now.
19:05Um, and you know, hopefully he can, uh, stay consistent with that because, you know, that
19:13stuff's going to work.
19:14It's going to work in this league.
19:16It's going to work in the next league.
19:17You know what I mean?
19:17Um, so, uh, yeah, I just, uh, I'd love to see him up here at some point.
19:24I don't pretend to know exactly how that's going to play out, but I'll tell you right
19:30now, that kid's going to be punching tickets for the nationals and the big leagues for a
19:34while in the future.
19:34I can't wait.
19:35We saw him in spring training.
19:36It was actually funny.
19:38So Paul was sitting in the booth with us doing an interview with us and it was the first
19:42time he pitched.
19:42It was like March 3rd or something like that in a spring game.
19:45And we had just gotten to West Palm and Paul was like moving around and like nervous
19:50like a dad.
19:51And I'm like, are you, I was like, do you watch every game like this?
19:54He's like, no, but I told him not to throw it this hard.
19:57He was like, he was like, he was already throwing like 102.
20:00He was going full Leo Mazzoni on it, dude.
20:02He was so upset.
20:02It was like March 3rd.
20:03And I was like, oh my, like Paul's not going to make it 162 games.
20:07He's like, this is not normal.
20:08Like this is my first, he had just traded for this guy, you know, but it was, it was hilarious
20:12to watch that.
20:13Oh, that's, that's Paul to a tee too.
20:15If he's, if he's got a guy he's particularly fixated on, he is going to watch every bat
20:22of his eyelashes and, uh, and track every step he takes around the mound.
20:29And then he's going to have, he's going to have thoughts after, and those thoughts are
20:32going to be right.
20:33It's been, it's, it's been awesome to work with him.
20:35That's cool.
20:36So Danny, before we let Simon Matthews go, see, you sleep a little bit on when he was actually
20:42pitching.
20:43So how about an eight shutout inning performance at the Cape against the lineup that had Cal
20:48Raleigh, Ernie Clement, Jonathan India.
20:51I think you were, were you on the same team or pitching against Tom Cosgrove for that game?
20:57I was on, on the same team as Tom Cosgrove.
21:00Yeah.
21:00The Chatham A's back in my glory days.
21:03That's the last day I was any good.
21:04I mean, that one has Cosgrove heard about that?
21:08I hang my hat.
21:09I'll bet he probably has brought it up to you even.
21:11I mean, that's pretty nasty.
21:13When, when he got here, I was joking around that he's, he's one of the only people who
21:17might actually remember that I used to be any good.
21:20Well, you know, what's such a bummer is you never got to play on the on-field campus at
21:24Georgetown where you would hit a ball 500 feet and you had to go another 15 feet to that
21:29little mini graveyard where Mo Vaughn hit his.
21:32Right.
21:33Yeah.
21:33Yeah.
21:34I know that's, uh, they've done a beautiful job with that campus, but I, I, every time
21:38I used to walk past the business school, I would think about it used to be a ball field
21:42and, you know, be a little bit bummed out.
21:45It's a great parking lot now for the hospital.
21:46I mean, it really is a good parking lot.
21:49There you go.
21:50What's your level of Knicks fandom?
21:52Charlie Slows told me like during the playoffs, you were ride or die with the Knicks.
21:55Yeah, I, uh, I grew up a gigantic Knicks fan, um, you know, through, you know, those like
22:04late nineties, early two thousands teams with Latrell Sprewell and Allen Houston.
22:08Um, and then, uh, my dad and I used to go to a couple of games a year when, uh,
22:14Eddie Curry
22:14was like the quickest dunker of all time.
22:17Uh, and Isaiah Thomas was running the show.
22:20Um, and as I've, as I've gotten into this job, um, it's really hard for me to, to end
22:29the day, getting my heart broken by a loss.
22:32That's not, uh, a nationals loss or, uh, or make my day with a win.
22:37That's not a nationals win.
22:38Right.
22:39I already end the day 162 times a year, like either as a winner or a loser.
22:43So in the off season, I kind of need to, I kind of need to take a deep breath, but,
22:47uh,
22:48the Knicks run was unbelievable.
22:50They hauled me all the way back in.
22:52Um, and Charlie and I were sitting at the bar in Cleveland when they clinched cause we
22:58were, we were playing the guardians.
23:00Uh, we watched them clinched and I, and I just sat there kind of soaking it up.
23:04It was, it was a blast.
23:05It was a really fun run.
23:06That's awesome.
23:07That must be really cool to have your team win a championship.
23:09That is something we all want to have again.
23:11Simon, appreciate you, buddy.
23:12Exactly right.
23:13Yeah.
23:13Thanks for joining us, man.
23:14Keep up the great work.
23:15Yeah.
23:16Thanks.
23:16Take care.
23:16Congrats on the strong season.
23:18There's Simon Matthews, nationals pitching coach on grant.
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