- 1 week ago
Fraud isn’t just a closing risk. It’s a housing affordability problem.
On this episode of Power House, Zeb Lowe sits down with Chris Morton, CEO of American Land Title Association, to unpack the growing threat of wire fraud, deed fraud, seller impersonation and AI-powered scams—and the costs those risks ultimately create for homeowners and lenders.
Morton also weighs in on Fannie Mae’s title insurance waiver efforts, why refinances aren’t necessarily as low-risk as they appear, and the work title professionals do behind the scenes to protect property rights and transactions.
As AI makes fraud increasingly sophisticated, the conversation explores an emerging arms race between technology and human judgment—and why secure transactions are fundamental to making homeownership sustainable and affordable.
Related to the episode:
Zeb Lowe’s LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/zebulon-lowe-a02353a4/
Chris Morton's LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-morton-5707881a7/
American Land Title Association
https://www.alta.org/
Want more from Zeb? Don’t forget to subscribe to LendingLife.
The Power House podcast brings the biggest names in housing to answer hard-hitting questions about industry trends, operational and growth strategy, and leadership. Join HousingWire’s Zeb Lowe every Thursday morning for candid conversations with industry leaders to learn how they’re differentiating themselves from the competition. Hosted and produced by the HousingWire Content Studio.
On this episode of Power House, Zeb Lowe sits down with Chris Morton, CEO of American Land Title Association, to unpack the growing threat of wire fraud, deed fraud, seller impersonation and AI-powered scams—and the costs those risks ultimately create for homeowners and lenders.
Morton also weighs in on Fannie Mae’s title insurance waiver efforts, why refinances aren’t necessarily as low-risk as they appear, and the work title professionals do behind the scenes to protect property rights and transactions.
As AI makes fraud increasingly sophisticated, the conversation explores an emerging arms race between technology and human judgment—and why secure transactions are fundamental to making homeownership sustainable and affordable.
Related to the episode:
Zeb Lowe’s LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/zebulon-lowe-a02353a4/
Chris Morton's LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-morton-5707881a7/
American Land Title Association
https://www.alta.org/
Want more from Zeb? Don’t forget to subscribe to LendingLife.
The Power House podcast brings the biggest names in housing to answer hard-hitting questions about industry trends, operational and growth strategy, and leadership. Join HousingWire’s Zeb Lowe every Thursday morning for candid conversations with industry leaders to learn how they’re differentiating themselves from the competition. Hosted and produced by the HousingWire Content Studio.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Welcome back to Powerhouse. Today, we're looking at a housing cost that doesn't show up in rate sheets or price
00:05charts, fraud, and how it quietly erodes affordability when safeguards fail.
00:11My guest is Chris Morton, CEO of American Land Title Association, who argues that fraud prevention is a core affordability
00:18issue, and the title is protection for the entire housing ecosystem.
00:33Hi, Chris. Thank you for joining me.
00:36Hi, Zeb. Thanks for having me. Really appreciate it.
00:38Yes, sir. So we were just talking before our producer hit record, and I've got a lot of questions lined
00:46up for you, some things that I'd like to get your opinion on.
00:49But I want to start the episode addressing something that I saw in the news this morning, and I was
00:56hoping that you could bring a little bit of either clarity or expand upon the Fannie Mae's expansion of its
01:03title insurance waiver pilot.
01:07Can you kind of catch us up to speed on what that program is and what its implications are for
01:14the industry?
01:15Yeah, I appreciate the question. And here's what I'll say.
01:20You know, I think stepping back from kind of the and giving a broader perspective here from a refinancing transaction
01:31view, you know, I think one of the things that's important to recognize is that refinances overall may look simple.
01:40But ultimately, what we know from our data is that they're not risk-free.
01:47And we've done some research. Milliman looked at this issue in terms of claims data for the title industry and
01:56found, and this gets to our broader conversation that we'll have today, fraud and forgery really account for about 40
02:02% of title claims costs in the refi space associated with those transactions.
02:10And the average claim is over $206,000. And so that's really a cost that most homeowners can't absorb on
02:20their own.
02:21So we believe, you know, fraud prevention and consumer and lender protection are really paramount in every real estate transaction,
02:29which includes the use of a title insurance product, as well as state regulated title insurance license title insurance agents
02:39in the transaction.
02:42I think if we go too fast and move to eliminate proven safeguards, we don't eliminate risk.
02:50What we do is we shift that risk and we shift that risk to consumers and to lenders into that
02:57broader real estate market.
02:58And so, you know, look, we're in the process for many years now talking with lenders, talking with the GSEs
03:05and talking with regulators about how we can effectively collaborate.
03:11We don't feel like the parameters of this program help in that regard.
03:17So if this is something that goes beyond this, you know, pilot, what do you think lenders and title shops
03:24should be doing right now?
03:26So like I said, if this expands, if this becomes a more permanent thing, to not be caught, I don't
03:31know, like flat footed perhaps, or to prepare for this permanence, let's say.
03:37I think the real important thing is for conversations as they're happening to really explore and be transparent about the
03:50risk associated with particularly the issue I mentioned, fraud and forgery and the rise in real estate related fraud.
03:58I think when you start removing proven protections that are regulated at the state level, that are comprehensively overseen, where
04:06there are entities involved who work with state insurance regulators, you move away from the ability to deal with a
04:19downstream risk that ultimately comes.
04:22Title claims don't show up until, you know, five, seven, 10 years down the road.
04:27And I think the challenge with this sort of framework is that I think we're looking perhaps at short-term
04:36costs and not long-term implications.
04:41Yeah, I know getting back into our larger topic, which was just fraud.
04:45One of the things that I think is interesting about what I've heard you speak on is that, you know,
04:52fraud is not a side issue in housing.
04:54It's part of the larger affordability story.
04:58And when we talk about affordability, the conversation usually centers on rates, prices, and inventory.
05:03So what's missing from that conversation when we don't account for fraud risk and fraud losses?
05:10Yeah, it's a great question, Seb.
05:12You know, it is.
05:14The conversation right now is all about rates, inventory, regulatory costs and burdens and those kinds of things.
05:21And those are big drivers to the issue of housing affordability, supply being, you know, an inventory being the big
05:28one.
05:29But the reality is if you don't look past sort of those components and look at what is being done
05:40in the marketplace to ensure that housing is not only affordable, but it's sustainable and secure,
05:47that's where the role of the title professionals and title underwriters come in, in the sense of ensuring that fraud
05:55prevention and protection is a core part of that affordability discussion.
06:00And that's the message that we've been trying to drive.
06:03If you think of what we're seeing in real estate fraud trends, wire fraud, deed fraud, seller impersonation, all those
06:14things are increasing.
06:15And those can impose really enormous costs on consumers and lenders.
06:21You know, for instance, a family may lose their life savings in a fraudulent transaction that they've been saving for
06:28years.
06:29They may face disputes over their ownership.
06:32You know, you look at what what may be the implications for lenders.
06:37Lenders may be forced to tighten underwriting standards or credit, you know, review or loan qualifications and pricing may increase.
06:49So, you know, if you look at the trends in terms of real estate fraud lately, the Internet Crimes Complaint
06:58Center at the FBI tracks this.
07:01And we've seen just in terms of reported losses tied to real estate fraud increasing 58 percent in the last
07:09year,
07:10a hundred million dollars in increased fraud related losses.
07:15And those are the ones that that only were reported.
07:18There were many, I'm sure, that were not.
07:21So fraud is is really a housing affordability issue.
07:26If you don't if you don't realize that when you potentially overlook or take for granted the things that are
07:33provided that protect the system,
07:35protect the consumers and protect the lenders, which is the title and settlement space,
07:40then I think long term you have the potential to really have greater, greater challenges with that sustainability of of
07:50housing in America.
07:52Do you can you provide a real world example or maybe your favorite example, go to example where something like
08:00a fraud event translated into higher cost or tighter conditions for other buyers down the down the line?
08:09Yeah, I mean, I think if you look at if you look at what we're let me just show and
08:16talk about what we're seeing in the in the in the title experience from sort of agents.
08:23We're seeing now that in survey data, 60 percent of our population that were surveyed saw increased wire fraud attempts.
08:32You read every day in the news about the fact that a family has lost their life savings because they
08:43wired their funds to a criminal enterprise who inserted themselves into the transaction.
08:52Those are real costs for not only title companies, but obviously for the broader system, which has implications for, you
09:04know, what what the who's going to bear those costs,
09:08whether it's the title company having to deal with their overhead expenses or it is the losses that come out
09:15of the banks in terms of in terms of what they're seeing.
09:19You know, those are just real challenges that I think, you know, we we want to make sure that people
09:26understand.
09:27All right. Let me ask you this. So which it happens on all sides of the industry.
09:32I mean, I was I was I was an originator for years.
09:35And so what people thought my what people thought my job was versus what my job actually was.
09:40You're great. Everything. And, you know, me and all my originator peers do the same thing about real estate agents
09:46and, you know, and and and people in the title industry.
09:49So I think it's easy to assume that and I know a lot of people like that that title work
09:53is just like running a records check, you know,
09:56and I know that it's far more than that.
09:58So how would you describe what title professionals are actually doing behind the scenes to prevent defects and fraud from
10:04becoming just disasters, really?
10:07Yeah, it's a great question. I appreciate you asking it.
10:10But the role is often misunderstood. There's no question about it.
10:14And I think the industry needs to continue to do a better job educating the the not only the partners
10:21in the industry, but also the broader public.
10:23We do do more than a public records check and or and or issue, you know, title insurance policies.
10:30Professionals every day review ownership history.
10:34They review and identify defects in the record.
10:39They catch red flags, fraudulent sort of things that are that are happening and they resolve issues before money changes
10:48hands.
10:50We're finding, you know, there's a lot of discussion about, well, it's it is a simple records check.
10:56But, you know, most of the most of the claims are for off record risks, fraud being one of them.
11:03You know, there are that are the ones that are rising in the system.
11:07The prevention work, what it does is it helps keep those transactions secure, protecting all of the parties.
11:16And, you know, if we don't have a great sort of respect and understanding of that, again, the implications long
11:27term are more challenging for, you know, for all of us.
11:31If we look at, again, the claims we're seeing in the fraud and forgery space, significant and really things that
11:40will overwhelm the ability of consumers to maintain their ownership position.
11:46Yeah. What's what is most likely to be caught and resolved before closing because of the work the title professionals
11:55do?
11:56And and what happens beyond the obvious implications of what happens when when this slips through?
12:05Yeah, I mean, look, mortgage payoffs are a big, a big area.
12:11Tax, you know, tax liens, mechanics liens, you know, things including HOA arrears and those kinds of things.
12:22So you're looking across a whole source of challenges to make sure that that title is clear and that, again,
12:33not only is it clear to close, but then you have a product on the back end
12:38that's there to provide for any legal risks that were missed, which which can happen and provide for the duty
12:48to defend that owner with their their rights and make sure that, you know, their ownership interests are protected.
12:55Yeah, I know. So, you know, framing these secure, excuse me, secure transactions as a shared interest for all parties,
13:04consumers, lenders, real estate agent, policymakers is where do you see the biggest where do you see the most alignment
13:15today?
13:15And where do you see gaps or misunderstandings?
13:20Yeah, I mean, I think I think there is a lot of alignment around this topic of fraud, which is
13:25why we're spending so much time around it.
13:28And it affects everyone, as I mentioned, you know, we work very closely with all of our fellow trade associations,
13:34we work with consumer groups like the ARP, we work, you know, across really the whole ecosystem,
13:41to make sure that not only are trends understood, but each party has a perspective, you know, in terms of
13:50the data that we have to to be able to sort of understand and absorb that and look at providing
13:59for improvements in the system in terms of security, in terms of technology and tools and those kinds of things.
14:06So we're working every day to make sure that, again, we're, we're communicating what we're learning in the marketplace, and
14:17we're staying ahead of some of the challenges that that we see.
14:22I like to ask this question to my guests that I think, you know, imagine they were kind of sitting
14:30at the table, they had the ear of everyone in the housing ecosystem, right?
14:33And so from, from your perspective, what's one change in policy or in practice that you would ask them to
14:41prioritize or, or shore up in the industry?
14:47Yeah, I think you look, I think sometimes, each of us in our particular areas of this, the sort of
14:54the housing stack, I think sometimes tend to be siloed, honestly, we look at the world in a particular way.
15:03From, you know, from, you know, from, you know, where we see, where we see risk, where we see sort
15:09of the needs of our particular industry.
15:14But I, I think what recent conversations that have been having in the sort of the broader housing affordability space,
15:23I think we all have ways to both better, better explain and under, and, and sort of communicate who we
15:31are,
15:31but also understand where other people sit and what their challenges are.
15:35And so I would say that the more there can be these opportunities, and we try to drive as many
15:42of these as possible,
15:43but for forums where lenders, title folks, agents all come together collectively, and have these conversations, as opposed to individually
15:55within our particular silo or our particular industry.
16:00I think that would really drive a lot more, both common understanding and common solutions.
16:08And so, you know, that's the thing, as I've stepped into this role with, with Alta as CEO, I've really
16:16tried to do more outreach, and better understand from this, the seat each piece person has, and what their, their
16:25biggest issues are, you know, in, in the marketplace.
16:30Yeah, I know that we're, we're definitely in a moment right now in the industry where there's all of this
16:37talk and pressure to streamline everything, but particularly streamline or removed friction, whether that's perceived, perceived friction or actual friction
16:50in the closing process.
16:51And I'm curious as to how you, how you, how you would distinguish between, you know, something like what is
16:58a smart, efficient change, and changes that actually weaken security and safeguards.
17:06Yeah, I mean, I, I think you've got to look at sort of two things, right? Technology and tools, AI,
17:12all of that coming into play, and then expertise and judgment. And, and I think it's a fine balance between
17:20the two.
17:21So, you know, I think if you look at, again, just sort of going back to this, this issue of
17:28fraud threat, right, because I think that's so paramount for us. AI and technology are changing both sides of that
17:34equation, right?
17:35You've got our ability to improve our processes, reduce the friction that you mentioned, improve transaction speed and efficiency, reduce
17:48cost, all of that.
17:50Those are, those are, those are things we're doing with the technology that's sort of now available to us, you
17:57know, in, in, in the industry.
18:01At the same time, criminal enterprises, actors are out there using those same tools to try to find gaps or
18:10weaknesses.
18:10And so one of the things that prevents against that, honestly, is the expertise and the judgment that comes into
18:18play as to how you use those tools, how you think about the integration of technology, AI, and all of
18:26that.
18:27And I think too often, honestly, Zeb, what happens is there is a sort of an overemphasis on the technology
18:36and the tool and less on the reality that you need someone who is insightful and able to understand the
18:44market, to use it and to use it wisely and for the right, for the right reasons.
18:49And also trust their expertise, their judgment, their gut, their, their years of experience to, you know, combat things like
18:58fraud and, and, and, and follow their, follow their training, you know, to make sure that they're doing right by
19:06consumers and by their partners in the industry.
19:08So, I mean, broadly speaking, I would say both of those, both of those things have a place to, to
19:13play for, for title professionals.
19:16Like we, we really look at this as, uh, those professionals being the ones who are going to, um, use
19:25the judgment to leverage the technology and not the other way around, have the technology driving the decision-making.
19:32Yeah.
19:33Uh, it's, it's funny or interesting.
19:36Every, every conversation that I have about, you know, looking forward, uh, in the industry, no matter what sectors, it
19:43always goes back or seems to, uh,
19:46go to the AI plus human model for, you know, for, for a workable future.
19:51But you had touched on something that, uh, to me, it's, uh, I'm very curious about it.
19:56And it's, um, I mean, it's not a joke, but it's a, it's a kind of fun topic as well,
20:00uh, which is the, uh, the evolution of, uh, fraud and technology.
20:07So what, what are you seeing as far as like, you know, deep fakes, voice cloning, you know, more sophisticated
20:13impersonations?
20:14What, what's out there now in those, uh, in those darker places of the fraud world, fraud space?
20:21Yeah.
20:22I mean, look, these, the, the challenge is that this is not just, you know, not to be flippant, but
20:29it's not just some guy in his basement anymore, you know, on a computer trying to scam someone.
20:35These are in many cases, state actors who are, you know, well-funded, highly sophisticated, very educated, going after, um,
20:46you know, a real estate marketplace, which has a lot of money sort of flowing through the system.
20:51Right.
20:52And so when you say state actor, what do you mean?
20:55So, so literally, um, there are, you know, groups within governments, uh, that, you know, that are funded, uh, you
21:04know, through, through a government, um, mechanism, um, to drive, drive resources for a variety of things, perhaps, uh, terrorist
21:13financing, other kinds of things like that, or, uh, or just criminal enterprises that help fund, you know, uh, fund
21:20different initiatives by those state actors.
21:23So, you know, is it more, I don't mean to cut you off, but I want to try to, do
21:27you see this more coming out of Asia as a side of Eastern Europe, South America, where do you see
21:31most?
21:32I mean, there's buckets, um, sort of a Asia, Africa, uh, Eastern Europe.
21:37I all have, all have these, um, these types of, um, groups that are out there for sure.
21:44Um, and, you know, and so as a result of that, um, you are seeing sophistication, you know, we, we
21:51had, um, I heard a story.
21:53Um, you know, there was, um, sort of, uh, of AI generated, um, closing person on the other end of
22:03a closing, it turned out to be, uh, and there was, uh, a closing agent who was working through the
22:10transaction, um, felt something was wrong, um, because it didn't feel right.
22:16I, uh, started to ask questions that were atypical and realized that the answers that they were getting back were
22:26nonsense and stopped the transaction cold.
22:28And again, that goes back to the human judgment factor and the fact that the technology is so sophisticated.
22:36You have to have training, you have to have processes in place, you have to train over and over again,
22:43and you have to, um, make sure that you're really, really having expert professionals in this, in the process.
22:51And not just using, you know, a tool, a technology, an algorithm that scans a public record and determines a
23:00risk and you move on.
23:02You've really gotta, you've really gotta have, uh, some checks and balances in that system.
23:07So you, so when you say AI, Jen, this is beyond, this is beyond a voice impersonation or voice cloning.
23:12You, this was like a video, like an AI avatar.
23:15Yeah.
23:15Yeah, absolutely.
23:16Somebody, uh, we, we actually had a meeting and somebody, um, was, uh, one of the vendors was, uh, there
23:23and did a, uh, impersonation of me.
23:27Um, and my voice, my look, everything.
23:31And it was terrifying.
23:33It was absolutely terrifying.
23:34And so, you know, these are things that we're, uh, we're spending a lot of time with vendor partners in
23:41particular.
23:42And with, um, you know, with, with others in the industry to make sure that particularly agents on the ground,
23:47understand, you know, not only what's happening out there, but are prepared to, uh, to deal with it in an
23:53effective way.
23:54Okay.
23:55So on the flip side, I know this is all based off of the AI plus human relationship model moving
23:59forward on the flip side, you know, the, the, the dangers that, uh, of, of the disadvancement of technology on
24:06the flip side.
24:07You know, where are you seeing, what areas are you seeing technology make the most, uh, meaningful, having the most,
24:15the most impactful difference as far as making these transactions either more secure and or, uh, busting the fraud.
24:23Yeah, that's a great question.
24:25I appreciate it.
24:25You know, I think a couple of things, I mean, the industry, um, has, has been very much focused on
24:32investing in technology over the last decade plus.
24:34I mean, um, in a lot of places, secure closing platforms, um, making sure that, um, all communications flowing through
24:42a, a secure encrypted platform, um, you know, to make sure that, um, nobody can interject themselves into that process.
24:49Um, we at Alta have worked to identify, you know, identity verification, best practices.
24:56We have a best practices, uh, set of standards across the industry on a number of things.
25:01That's one place we've spent a lot of time.
25:04And then, you know, from a, a coverage, uh, in terms of the insurance product perspective, making sure again, that
25:10we're thinking ahead about what are the rising trends and risk.
25:14And again, back to fraud, um, we've developed some new coverages post-policy.
25:20So after the transaction, if fraud occurs, uh, that you can avail yourself of, uh, as a consumer, uh, so
25:28that you're covered not only before the transaction, which is where title, you know, traditionally covers you up to closing,
25:34um, but post-closing coverage, uh, for fraud and those kinds of things.
25:38So we're doing a lot of that and, and training also around, again, all of these, uh, new things that
25:44we're finding in the marketplace.
25:46So it's a, it's a, you know, it really is a, all, all of the above approach, uh, to make
25:52sure that we're, uh, staying ahead of the curve on some of these things.
25:56You know, I, I never occurred to me and I didn't think I'd be asking someone from the, from the
26:04title space about this, the build, build versus buy situation.
26:09That's normally a conversation that I'll have within the lending space, but there's a, you know, there's a difference between
26:16a lender deciding if they're going to build their own point of sale or buy one, you know, through a
26:21third party vendor or something.
26:23The technology that you're using, especially if you're combating state funded terrorist linked fraudsters, I mean, the, the technology that
26:35you're using, how much of that do you, is proprietary that you're building or how much of that are you
26:40having to, um, to, to contract or source through, I don't even know, governmental agencies or something.
26:48I have absolutely no idea.
26:49I never thought that I'd be having this, this kind of conversation actually.
26:52Yeah.
26:52So I would say a couple of things, the underwriters, you know, certainly have a, a number of tools and
26:58platforms and technology that is proprietary to them.
27:02And they're sort of the, the agents they work with in the, in the industry, you know, there are, there
27:06are, uh, then vendors who are working, you know, across, uh, multiple underwriters through various agencies, uh, that are coming
27:15together to, uh, develop tools, uh, to make sure that we're.
27:20You know, we're secure and, you know, we're secure and successful in that.
27:23And then I think more to the, on, on the government side, the partnership pieces is, is important, um, particularly
27:31from a reporting and trend analysis perspective right now.
27:35So that whether it's the FBI or the secret service, there are that we've had conversations with all of them
27:41about what we're seeing, what we're, what our experience is, what is the data showing, um, and working in partnership,
27:48both on an education and awareness perspective, uh, as well as helping them.
27:54Um, and this is more on the, probably on the, the vendor side to some extent, maybe some, some of
28:00the title companies, but, um, to help them really work to go after those actors, uh, more from a law
28:09enforcement perspective.
28:10Uh, but you know, from the, from the trade association side, uh, it's been developing the partnerships that allow those
28:17communications and those, and those opportunities to, uh, flow.
28:21So, yeah, I want to, uh, kind of take a right turn here and talk about, uh, consumer education.
28:28Where, where do you think the industry is doing a good job in terms of consumer education today?
28:34And where do you think that we're, we're falling short, maybe in explaining the risks, uh, the protections that exist
28:41within the transactions?
28:42What, what's your assessment there?
28:44Yeah.
28:45So I, I think this fraud area is one where we have done a good job.
28:49We've really spent a lot of time, um, particularly starting with wire fraud years ago, um, moving ahead to some
28:57of these new things that I mentioned in terms of seller impersonation and, uh, other kinds of things that we're
29:03seeing and deed fraud.
29:04Um, we've done, I think we've done a good job.
29:06Doesn't mean that we haven't, we, we solved the problem.
29:10It's, it's really still a challenge.
29:12Uh, but the awareness for consumers, I think we've done, we've done some outreach and data collection that's shown that
29:20consumers, particularly younger consumers are really understanding that they need to come to trusted partners in, in the title space.
29:37Um, and so what we're saying to our title community is you need to be one of those trusted partners.
29:47And so here are the ways to educate yourself, to train your team, to develop the tools, to leverage, you
29:54know, relationships.
29:55Um, so that's the, the, that's the good, the good news.
29:58I think education, broadly speaking on the value of what we do as title professionals and as title agent underwriters,
30:08um, as well as the value of the product is a constant, um, challenge.
30:14You know, I think a lot of that is because we're, we're, we're, we're not necessarily consumer facing till the
30:20day of closing.
30:21Uh, you know, we, we work with, uh, lenders and real estate agents to make sure that we're closing that
30:28transaction.
30:29Um, but we need to continue to do, do better educating consumers.
30:34And so we've developed a, how, uh, homeownership outreach program with our members to, uh, provide more, uh, awareness about
30:42the value of title, both owners and lenders to consumers and lenders.
30:47So, you know, there's more, more to be done, but I think we're making a lot of good progress.
30:52Yeah.
30:52On that.
30:53And to, um, and I think the circles back, we end, end kind of where we started, which was, uh,
31:00your, um, your, your, your, your point about.
31:04Um, fraud, uh, tying into the affordability conversation and looking forward, you know, a few years into the, into the
31:12future, uh, how do you, how would you, how would you gauge kind of success or, uh, yeah.
31:20How would you gauge success in, in, in, in seeing fraud prevention as a fully recognized part of the housing,
31:30of the housing affordability issue?
31:33Well, I would say two things.
31:35I would say we see that fraud trends are, um, moving in a different direction downward as opposed to upward.
31:43Um, so the education, the awareness, uh, the, the partnerships that we have are, um, making an impact.
31:52Um, and we're staying ahead of the, the, the new, uh, actors and initiatives that are out there from the,
31:58the bad guys.
31:59Um, the second thing I would say is there is a true appreciation of the value of the industry to
32:09the integrity and the long-term sustain, the integrity of every real estate transaction in the long-term term sustainability
32:16and security of homeownership in America.
32:19Um, and I think that's the point I, I would leave you with, which is fraud is unaffordable.
32:26Um, we play a role in preventing and protecting against it.
32:31It's on the rise.
32:32And if we really want affordable homeownership that is long-term for more Americans, then we need to have an
32:41appreciation for, um, the, the, not only the front-end role of preventing those, those fraud risks and other challenges
32:49that title professionals play, but also, uh, the, the role that a state regulated industry with a product that is
32:57overseen and reserved against.
32:59And proven for a number of years, um, you know, is a part and parcel of every conversation.
33:06And that's why I'm talking to you.
33:09And that's why we're talking to all of our partners and, and our consumers out there to make sure that
33:14they understand this is a serious conversation that we want to make sure we're, we're educating about.
33:19Um, yeah, well, Chris, thank you so much for, uh, for joining me, uh, you join me on the road.
33:23So I wish you a safe and safe back, back to DC and I look forward to speaking with you
33:28again soon.
33:30Thanks, Seb.
33:30I really appreciate it.
33:31Yes, sir.
33:39You
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