00:00Música
00:08Joining me this afternoon is French Minister for EU Affairs, Benjamin Haddad.
00:12Minister, thank you very much for joining us on Euronews.
00:15Thanks for having me.
00:16Now, this week we really had a development when it came to Russia-European relations
00:21because Berlin formally attributed an attack at Leipzig Airport to Russia.
00:26This is a development because countries have held back from directly blaming Russia.
00:31What do you think this all means?
00:33Well, first, it's very important that we reiterate our full solidarity and support
00:37for the German authorities and German people.
00:39And it's one more episode of Russia's hybrid warfare against Europeans.
00:44But we will never be intimidated in our support for Ukraine.
00:47This is the first test for European security.
00:50And we've only accelerated and increased our support for Ukraine
00:54at the European level in the last month.
00:56Remember where we were just a year and a half ago,
00:59after the Oval Office meeting between President Trump, President Zelensky, Vice President Vence,
01:03when many people thought that Europeans would stand aside
01:08as Ukraine would be forced into capitulation by a deal signed by Russia and the United States.
01:14On the contrary, we've taken ownership of our own security and defense.
01:17We know that the next winter will be very difficult.
01:20This is why President Macron announced new interceptors that will be sent to Ukraine.
01:24This is also why we're working towards the production under license of capabilities
01:29like the SCAP, the Storm Shadows, and working also with the Americans on the Patriots.
01:35I suppose it's very hard to define the situation we're in now,
01:39because up until now, you've had these sort of below-threshold hybrid attacks.
01:42But as we heard from Mark Rutte, the Secretary-General of NATO, and Kaya Kalas,
01:46these attacks are becoming much more kinetic, much more frequent, much more violent and reckless.
01:51Are we at war with Russia?
01:53Well, you know, it's not war, but it's certainly not peace.
01:57And this is why we need to continue to increase our effort,
02:01first to bolster our defense against these hybrid attacks.
02:05We know that we're in a world that's much more geopolitically dangerous.
02:09We have adversaries and rivals, and this is why we need to continue to increase
02:13the coordination on the defense and security capabilities of Europeans.
02:18But would you say, though, the situation we're in now is, let's say, vastly different,
02:21even the security situation a year ago, that we're getting much closer to that confrontation?
02:26I think we've known for a long time that we were facing a threat coming from Russia.
02:31And by the way, we just need to listen to the constant questioning of European security,
02:36of the European security architecture coming from the leaders in the Kremlin.
02:41So I think, you know, the most important thing is stay calm, stay the course,
02:46continue to invest in our security and defense, continue the support for Ukraine,
02:49continue the pressure and the economic pressure that we're putting on Russia.
02:55You can see, by the way, what's happening on the battlefield
02:59with Ukrainians showing incredible ingeniosity and innovation on the battlefield with drones.
03:05You can see the success of the long-range strikes.
03:08They're bringing also the war to Russia with the impact that it's having,
03:12including on the Russian people.
03:13And, you know, a few weeks ago, we had this U.S. assessment that it was possible,
03:17more closer, that the Kremlin might target NATO in some way,
03:22in some small way that may require an Article 5 response,
03:26because so, up until now, it's been below Article 5.
03:30In that case, let's say a part of Estonia was targeted in a very specific way.
03:35Do you think NATO would be unified enough to respond directly?
03:40Would the United States be behind them?
03:42When you look at the discussions we've had with the United States over the last year,
03:49you can see that the U.S. is in NATO.
03:51We had a successful NATO summit, actually, this year.
03:54We see all the members of NATO increasing their defense spending,
03:58which I think is good for the alliance.
04:01It's also good to boast of the European pillar of NATO.
04:04This is something we support.
04:05If you want a more balanced, a more mature security relationship
04:09where Europeans can take ownership of their own security and defense,
04:12this is something that the U.S. presidents have been demanding.
04:16But the truth is, this is also something that we want.
04:17So we should, you know, read the writing on the wall,
04:21draw the conclusions from this,
04:22but at the same time continue to work with our American partners.
04:25Look at what we did this year, you know,
04:27at the G7 where President Trump was invited,
04:30and then the dinner in Versailles.
04:31We've seen, I think, a good reconvergence,
04:34realignment on the question of Ukraine,
04:36announcements from the United States
04:38on the production of patriots on the license.
04:40But that hasn't happened to me.
04:41The problem is that was a big getaway from NATO summit,
04:45but it hasn't emerged.
04:46But let's be honest.
04:47We're in a different place than we were just a year ago,
04:49for example, when it comes to Ukraine.
04:51President Zelensky was in Washington recently
04:53for a visit that I think was successful.
04:54So once again, I think the best thing you can do in life
04:58is focus on what you control.
05:01And this is why I'm talking about the efforts
05:03that Europeans are undertaking for their own security
05:05and their own defense,
05:06and then continue the work that we do with the United States.
05:09The Strait of Hormuz is obviously something
05:11that the Europeans were not involved in,
05:13in terms of the Israeli-U.S. war in Iran.
05:15But can the Europeans do anything to intervene
05:18or to help this situation?
05:21Because it has such an impact globally,
05:23but also in particular in Europe,
05:24because we get so much gas and oil through that strait.
05:27We said very clearly that when it comes to the situation in Iran
05:30and the Strait of Hormuz,
05:31we were looking for a de-escalation of the conflict
05:33that can create the conditions after the war
05:36to have an international coalition
05:40where France will take its part
05:42to support the freedom of navigation
05:44in the Strait of Hormuz.
05:46And then what's really important afterwards,
05:49and this is what was agreed, by the way,
05:51at the time in Versailles,
05:53is to set the condition for diplomacy
05:57to deal with the Iranian nuclear program,
06:00which is a security threat for the entire region.
06:03So there's no influence there
06:05for the actual de-escalation part?
06:06That just has to happen
06:07between the parties that are involved, really, though?
06:09Well, I mean, once again,
06:11this is not a war that was started by Europeans.
06:13We will be ready to take our part, really,
06:16to lead to the freedom of navigation
06:18and to diplomacy to handle this nuclear issue.
06:21So the frozen Russian assets,
06:24most of them are held, as we know,
06:25in Euroclear, in Belgium.
06:27France came to the position after a while
06:30that we should be using them to pay for Ukraine.
06:32It shouldn't be up to European taxpayers.
06:34Is that still your position?
06:35We asked the Commission to look,
06:36especially technically,
06:38on what we could do with them
06:39because this is where, you know,
06:41both technically and legally,
06:43we could not find unanimity and consensus.
06:46And it is clear that these assets
06:48will remain where they are
06:50as long as there's still
06:50the Russian war of aggression
06:52against Ukraine ongoing
06:52and Russia refuses to pay reparations.
06:55So we're open to having, you know,
06:57the debate on what to do next with these assets.
07:00Ceuta is another issue
07:02because migration, once again,
07:03being instrumentalized,
07:04something that's been happening
07:05for the last few years,
07:06but again, has been escalating.
07:08Do you think that Spain
07:09was given the right amount of solidarity
07:10by the European Union,
07:12by the Commission and by member states?
07:14Well, we have been in support of Spain.
07:15Yeah.
07:16And I think the Spanish authorities
07:18have clearly taken the measures
07:20to be able to respond to this situation
07:23despite the emergency
07:25and the dramatic humanitarian nature
07:28of this crisis.
07:30Look, I'm absolutely convinced
07:32that the best way to deal
07:33with these extraordinary complex issues
07:35of immigration is to do it
07:37through European cooperation.
07:38But do you think, though,
07:39that Spain was given a hard time unnecessarily?
07:43Within moments of the whole thing happening,
07:45barely, you know,
07:46Italy had suspended unilaterally Spain,
07:49you know, Spain from Schengen.
07:50As I said, this is not the approach
07:52that was taken by France.
07:53Yeah, indeed.
07:53Do you think it was a bit out of bounds?
07:56Well, what I can tell you
07:57is that France has shown solidarity with Spain
07:59and that I think Spain has been effective
08:02in answering this crisis.
08:04You have a big election next year.
08:06And, you know,
08:07the past two or three election cycles,
08:09we've been saying this,
08:09but this even is even more pivotal, let's say.
08:13First of all,
08:15are you concerned about interference in the election?
08:17You know, France has been a major target
08:19for foreign disinformation and interference.
08:22We've seen episodes,
08:23remember, when President Macron was attacked
08:26on a video when he was going on the train to Ukraine.
08:29The rule should be very clear.
08:30What's illegal in the real world
08:32should be illegal in the virtual world.
08:34And this is the criteria
08:35that presides in these instruments.
08:38Marine Le Pen goes from strength to strength,
08:41it appears,
08:42despite the fact that, you know,
08:44she has a conviction for misuse of funds,
08:46which something you would imagine voters
08:48would be something that would put them off.
08:50What have you guys done wrong?
08:53You know, I think you see the rise
08:54of the far right and populist everywhere in Europe.
08:58And we should take this with a lot of humility.
09:00And our first responsibility, first,
09:03is to continue to deliver on results.
09:05All the issues that we're discussing here today,
09:07from migration and security,
09:09from competitiveness, prosperity,
09:11from defending the security of Europeans
09:15against foreign threats,
09:16we have a lot to continue to do
09:18and to continue to deliver and function.
09:20And then I will tell you something.
09:22You know, this will be, as every election,
09:25a tough election.
09:27It's still a long way to go.
09:30And I never trust the polls
09:32because when I personally started supporting
09:35Emmanuel Macron in 2016,
09:37he was far, far behind in the polls.
09:40Absolutely.
09:42But I know something for sure.
09:44The French are deeply pro-European.
09:46The French are proud of the role
09:48that their country is playing
09:49on the European stage.
09:51And Marine Le Pen, for a long time,
09:53has been the candidate of Brexit.
09:55She's been the candidate of leaving the Euro.
09:57It's still far.
09:59But I'm quite confident that the French,
10:02like they've done so many, many times,
10:05will refuse extremism.
10:07I am saying this with a lot of humility
10:09because I think a campaign, you know,
10:11you need to campaign.
10:12You need to go meet the French.
10:14You need to listen to voters.
10:16You need to respond, propose a platform.
10:18We need to unify around a candidate
10:20because right now we have a lot of talents
10:22in the centre,
10:24but we have a fragmented political offer.
10:26So I think by the end of the year,
10:27we will have one candidate
10:28that can rally the centre and the centre-right.
10:31And then we will make a case.
10:33Once again, France has shown repeatedly,
10:36the French people have shown repeatedly,
10:37that they have said no to extremism,
10:40Euroscepticism and populism.
10:41At the same time, they're getting stronger
10:43and they did ever so well
10:44at the European Parliament elections.
10:46I think, you know,
10:47you have a broader sense of maybe
10:49loss of control in globalization.
10:53You have a world that's changing very rapidly
10:55where a lot of the certainties that we had
10:57in the 90s and the 2000s are crumbling.
11:00Trade is being weaponized as a tool of pressure.
11:03You see the rise of China
11:04and the subsidized overcapacities
11:09that are coming to our markets
11:11that are destabilizing our industries.
11:13You see our traditional alliances
11:15that are being questioned
11:16and a war of Russian aggression on our continent.
11:20And so when you have all this transformation,
11:23uncertainties,
11:24and a lot of the pillars
11:26on which we had built our systems,
11:28our European Union,
11:29our transatlantic alliance
11:30that are being questioned,
11:32yes, I think, you know,
11:33these periods of transition
11:35paved the way very often
11:37for radical answers.
11:38I don't think they're the right answer.
11:39I don't think that in a world
11:41where you have the pressure from China,
11:43from the U.S.,
11:44the threat coming from Russia,
11:45we would be stronger going it alone.
11:47I don't think we'd be stronger
11:48looking inwards.
11:49Benjamin Haddad,
11:51EU affairs minister for France,
11:52thank you very much for joining us
11:54on Euronews.
11:55Thank you.
