- 5 weeks ago
In Kenya, corruption scandals and a failing health system leave families stranded. When hospitals and governments vanish, citizens turn to TikTok and civil society for help to build roads, equip schools or anything else.
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00:07This week on the 77% Street Debate.
00:12The people pay a lot of taxes and we actually don't see where the money goes to.
00:17Why do we have to tweet for things to work? Because it was not working until I tweeted.
00:21There is quite a bit of failure in terms of even our assessments of how public resources are being managed.
00:27If I can touch about the health and education, why do we have WhatsApp group to raise funds? Why? If
00:33these things are working.
00:34I say to Kenyan politicians, shame on you. If you're embezzling funds in Kenya, shame on you.
00:38The chronic diseases that we have in Kenya right now, particularly for the minor Kenyans, they are suffering alone.
00:45There is the element that we wanted to cure that problem. Are we there yet? I don't think we are
00:50there yet. Let us bring another government.
00:58Hello and welcome or welcome back to the 77% Street Debate.
01:02My name is Edith Kimani and this week we are back in my home country of Kenya.
01:06And it's in this country that a teenager went viral not too long ago after posting very candid videos of
01:12him taking care of his ailing father.
01:14Now what happened next is what makes this story incredible.
01:18Because thousands of Kenyans from online brought themselves together and went to these boys' home and got him food, medication
01:25and even got the father a new hospital bed.
01:28But the question we are asking today is a fundamental one.
01:31What happens when government services are not available? Whose responsibility is it to get them?
01:37And the person who helped organize everything is here with us, MC Chris Kirubi.
01:41So we'll start with just how it all started.
01:45Alright, so Karuma is a TikToker. He comes from an interior place called Odaya.
01:50So the father has been sick for so many years.
01:53They have tried all the best to make sure that they get the medication and everything that comes with health.
01:58But unfortunately, accessibility is the issue.
02:02Are we talking about healthcare?
02:03The healthcare, the hospitals, let me say the government, they are involved on this.
02:08The chronic diseases that we have in Kenya right now, particularly for the minor Kenyans, they are suffering alone.
02:16So let's finish up the story of Kaluma Boy, as he's now been called.
02:20So we saw these numbers, hundreds of Kenyans who just went on their own volition and they really took care
02:26of this young man.
02:27What came out of it?
02:28We organized ourselves with no leadership, with nothing but one blood, one compassion spirit.
02:34And we did it for Kaluma Father.
02:37Okay, so we're already talking about a failure of services here, particularly in the healthcare sector.
02:42And Wendy, we were speaking not too long ago and your story is truly heartbreaking.
02:47Tell me what happened when you went to actually the highest hospital in this country, which is a public hospital
02:54to give birth.
02:54I was 18 when I got pregnant.
02:59So when I was 19, when I turned 19, I gave birth to Scott.
03:04That was March 2019.
03:06And I went to Kenyans hospital, but I was neglected.
03:10They were saying I was not in pain since I was not causing drama like other women there.
03:16So they left me and when they came back, they found the baby's head already out, but it was too
03:22late.
03:23So my baby didn't cry and it developed cerebral palsy in the process.
03:28And now I have to take care of a disabled child that way.
03:35I can't even imagine what that feels like.
03:38I'm so sorry.
03:39That feels like so empty to just say I'm so sorry.
03:42But did the hospital ever even come to you and apologize?
03:46No.
03:46When I took the baby back to the hospital, it was six months.
03:50He wasn't sitting.
03:51So we noticed something was off.
03:53So when we went back to the hospital to find out why he wasn't sitting and he was already six
03:58months,
03:59they broke the news to us.
04:00They told us the baby developed cerebral palsy in the process of labor and everything.
04:05But they were not sorry because according to how they spoke to me, they told me,
04:10you young girls, instead of concentrating in school, you're busy opening your legs to get pregnant.
04:18Yeah.
04:20And Gatia, we're talking about health care here, but public services are being denied all over the country in all
04:26forms.
04:26And I know that you also fundraise like MC Chris here.
04:30What kind of work do you do for society?
04:32I'm a volunteer coordinator within a network of volunteers who showed up from 25th of June this year.
04:38We went to the emergency medical center and there were no medical supplies.
04:42So we asked the medics how we could help.
04:44They said just fundraise.
04:45So most of them needed either money to be admitted into hospital or money to get into surgery and all
04:51that.
04:51So we started fundraising for that.
04:53So it's all citizen-led.
04:55So it's interesting you're talking about people who are going back to failed.
04:59Because the building that we're at right now looks very, very spooky.
05:02It's been like this for the last 10 years.
05:04Originally, it was meant to become the National Employment Authority headquarters.
05:09This is a state that it's been in for the last 10 years.
05:12So Esther, when you are looking around as a social media influencer,
05:16how does it feel knowing that taxpayer money is either being misused, misappropriated, and it's risking lives?
05:23Mixed feelings, really.
05:24It's very angering.
05:26And every day we just wake up to new news, new bills, new disappointments.
05:32And we don't know where to point our frustrations.
05:35There's a lot of anger.
05:36We just need to know where to direct it.
05:38Is it all got to do with failure of governance?
05:40There is quite a bit of failure in terms of even our assessments of how public resources are being managed.
05:47And this has been outrightly brought about by reports from the Office of the Auditor General that point to a
05:54lot of wastage, misuse, and abuse of resources.
05:59And so how does Kenya rank currently when it comes to corruption?
06:02I know that TI does the Corruption Perception Index.
06:04We have 32 points out of 100 in terms of 100 being those countries that are doing pretty well.
06:12So 32 out of 100, really, that's a really low mark.
06:17The Corruption Perception Index looks primarily at public sector corruption.
06:22So this points to very critical areas that need to be addressed.
06:26So let me come to the man who speaks for the government here, the deputy government spokesperson, Mr. Muthama.
06:32We're hearing that Kenya is not scoring very well when it comes to corruption.
06:35And that corrupt dealings could be costing us this and misappropriating funds that are meant to take care of somebody
06:42like Wendy.
06:43How do you respond to that?
06:44Corruption actually does quite a lot when it comes to really some of the things that we've seen.
06:51Some of the deaths that have been reported, much of it has to do with corruption.
06:55We only instituted universal health care a few years back.
07:00In fact, one year. We are celebrating a year in October.
07:04When you say we've just instituted national health care, it's just a rebranding of the National Health Service, which Kenya
07:10has enjoyed for many years.
07:11I think it was yesterday, 27 million Kenyans.
07:14This is one of the most progressive places where we've seen Kenyan register in their millions.
07:2027, we've never had another government program that has hit that, apart from obviously from AIDS and what have you.
07:25But that just tells you there is something that has happened over that one year.
07:29Now, we can agree on so many things.
07:31Hold on. Please, please.
07:32Let me just take a temperature reading here.
07:34Because we're being told about registrations for a health service, right?
07:38But do you trust that this health service will come through for you?
07:41No, I don't.
07:42Okay, we have somebody at the back. Let me just hear from you.
07:45The issue of treatment is now the problem.
07:47Yes, there is treatment, but there is no medication.
07:51You can be treated, you can be given any kind of service that you want, but you will end up
07:56going to the pharmacy to get some medicines.
07:59So that is the key challenge.
08:00I think you've demonstrated something here, that even when the government promises to deliver something, it never happens 100%
08:07of the way.
08:07That you have to go back to your pocket and supplement it.
08:11Yeah?
08:11Okay, let's hear some comments.
08:13I think I don't know how it works because it works well for some people.
08:17And for some people, it does not work well.
08:19It's like picky, picky, pokey, whatever it chooses.
08:22So we've been focused a little bit on health care, but I want us to move away from that a
08:26little bit, Titus, because public services are available across different sectors.
08:30So when you look at the figures, what are the other sectors or areas where Kenyans might be getting shortchanged?
08:36So health, of course, is one of the sectors that is greatly affected by low service delivery.
08:43But there has also been complaints about education, especially high education.
08:48Now, when you said education, I had a choir behind me.
08:53Okay, tell me, tell me.
08:55So when it comes to the education sector, personally, I am a student and I have been affected by this
09:02whole, where has the funds gone to, where the lecturers not being paid.
09:07It's making us, we won't finish school in time.
09:11So you're backlogging.
09:13We're just seated at home doing nothing.
09:16And it's not fair.
09:18All right.
09:18Anybody else who wants to speak to me about the education sector?
09:21Parents are being asked to pay for the national examination.
09:25So it doesn't receive funds from the national government.
09:28What are we doing about that?
09:30And every financial year, we have a budget, disbursement of money.
09:34Where is that money going?
09:36Where is it doing?
09:37The government needs to put everything transparent, let everything be transparent and consistent.
09:44Then every Kenyan will be happy.
09:46Okay.
09:46I believe most Kenyan politicians speak from a point of privilege.
09:50Most of them don't know what the common Kenyan is actually going through.
09:53Because most of them have the funds to take their kids to Ivy League universities abroad.
09:57But they never take time to realize that the common manager in Kenya can't even afford breakfast or three meals
10:03within.
10:04That's very sad.
10:05So I say to Kenyan politicians, shame on you.
10:07If you're embezzling funds in Kenya, shame on you.
10:10Okay.
10:11Melissa, we haven't spoken to you yet.
10:13And I just want to hear if this reality that we're discussing here applies to you.
10:17Have you ever been to a place where you're supposed to get public services?
10:20You know your taxpayer money should have paid for that service.
10:23And yet you're sitting there like, what's going on?
10:25Yes.
10:26As early as 2019, when I was like 18, I was supposed to get an ID.
10:31And at that time, we didn't really have a fee.
10:34But I was actually told to pay like 9,000 shillings so that I could get my ID.
10:39The people pay a lot of taxes and we actually don't see where the money goes to.
10:43The health system is messed up.
10:46The education system is messed up.
10:48It doesn't really make so much sense.
10:50Okay.
10:51Let me come back to Mudama for a second.
10:52When you hear the frustration that's quite evident in the people speaking, how does that make you feel?
10:57Actually, very bad.
10:58Very, very bad.
10:59I went through the same thing.
11:01Like what my friend has said, and I agree with him 110%.
11:04But also, we need to be very careful about some of the things that we are saying.
11:08I had my good lady friend there saying, talking about exam fees.
11:12There's no exam fees.
11:13Okay.
11:13I'm hearing some rumblings behind here.
11:15Esther, let me come to you because you seem to have something to say.
11:18Let me go back to passports.
11:19Because why do we have to tweet for things to work?
11:22Because it was not working until I tweeted.
11:24And I said, I've waited for four months.
11:26I've not gotten my passport.
11:27So I'm celebrating my anniversary.
11:29And then that tweet went viral.
11:31And then now, they started processing the passports without people paying bribes.
11:37Yeah.
11:37So that's, I mean.
11:39Okay.
11:39Let me come back to you.
11:40It used to take people, sometimes two years to get a passport.
11:44Now, you can get your passport between seven and 14 days.
11:48What has happened?
11:48Interventions.
11:49These things can do, actually are happening and can happen.
11:53Okay.
11:53Let me, Ngatia here, he, in fact, there's a gentleman behind you, Ngatia, who wants to cry.
11:59Yeah, we probably should start with him.
12:01But because all he's doing is deflecting, right?
12:03Someone almost lost their child, right?
12:05We have people, there's a gentleman behind you who's been dealing with people at the Kenyatta National Hospital for two
12:10months,
12:10every day trying to get them help after they've registered for everything that's being said.
12:15Currently, he's fundraising for someone who has a bill of 295,000 shillings.
12:19Let me hear from the gentleman directly.
12:21Are you the sir gentleman?
12:23Yeah.
12:23Okay.
12:24I am, actually, he's even making me sad when I see, like, a government officer trying to defend what is
12:31not working.
12:32I can tell you it has been a long journey for me and for most of us here.
12:36Because one thing, if I can touch about the health and education, why do we have WhatsApp group to raise
12:42funds?
12:43Why?
12:44If these things are working, why do even the politicians are being added in WhatsApp group to at least raise
12:50funds for sure?
12:51That somebody is in the hospital to raise funds for sure?
12:55So, thank you for that input.
12:57So, because you mentioned being in WhatsApp groups and fundraising in a digital space,
13:01how many of you have been added this year alone to at least one WhatsApp group to raise funds?
13:06Okay, what was it for?
13:08Let me hear from some people who haven't spoken yet.
13:10One time it was for a relative of ours back in our rural area.
13:16They weren't feeling well and they were going through leukemia, which is tough, especially with if you don't have the
13:24funds to pay for treatment.
13:26So, some more fundraisers this year.
13:28Esther, I saw your hand go up.
13:30What were you fundraising for?
13:32My uncle was unwell.
13:35Yeah, so we were just raising funds for the hospital bill, but also a lot of fundraising for funerals as
13:42well.
13:43Yeah.
13:43The worst experience about fundraising?
13:45Yeah.
13:45I've been helping people on TikTok and thousands of them, but this is the most heartbreaking time when people are
13:52calling for help and you cannot manage because how long are we going to keep on doing the fundraise?
13:59And then the next morning they are texting you, you know, we approached you, Chris, to help our uncle, but
14:05he passed away.
14:06Thank you for lifting us out of this.
14:08Then you're like, am I the government who voted for me?
14:11Am I level five hospital or level whatever?
14:14And that's why, by the way, for information, that's why we are building our own hospital.
14:19So, by the way, what Chris is talking about is a plan that happened after the Kaluma Boy incident, where
14:24TikTokers are now speaking about leaving the government out and individually by yourselves coming up with your own self-funded
14:31hospital.
14:32Is this realistic?
14:33Is it sustainable?
14:34It is.
14:35It is.
14:36This is Kenyans for Kenyans.
14:38Actually, tomorrow, we are heading to Embu to rescue a kid who is blind, who is fed by tubes, who
14:46is using oxygen in their house.
14:49The kid is suffering.
14:50And they are looking forward for people to come and do this for them.
14:53All right.
14:54So, let me ask a question about fundraising.
14:56Because in Kenya, there's a word for it.
14:58It's called harambe.
15:00In Swahili, it loosely translates to coming together.
15:02So, we understand this philosophy of coming together, harambe.
15:06So, is it a problem if we continue to take care of our uncles, aunties, sisters?
15:11What's the issue?
15:12So, the singular thing I would ask is there's nothing wrong with us coming together to make the world a
15:18better place.
15:18Nonetheless, the government was instituted as a framework within which we remit taxes at a certain percentage every month from
15:27our income.
15:28And the government in the constitution has enshrined that there are certain rights we are supposed to get.
15:33I'm always meant to get health care.
15:35I'm always meant to find good roads and other services.
15:38Now, we have created a societal structure that at this point, as we evaluate it, we are looking at over
15:45-promising and under-delivering.
15:47For example, I would suggest if we find from the audit that a certain percentage of taxes are being mismanaged.
15:56Muthama, I have to come back to you for some remarks because when you hear young people talk about taking
16:01governance in their own hands, that could be misinterpreted, you know?
16:05But why do you think they've gotten to this point?
16:08So, when we talk about health care, when we talk about education, there was a problem before these interventions came
16:16into play.
16:17And you see the Harambe thing, for instance, in matters of health care, we wanted to cure that.
16:25For instance, I was, like you're saying, you're right.
16:27I was in about 10 WhatsApp groups, probably one for funeral.
16:32There's this one that needs this.
16:35One is going for treatment abroad.
16:38There is the element that we wanted to cure that problem.
16:41Are we there yet?
16:41I don't think we are there yet.
16:42Let me get some responses from the...
16:45Oh, wow, wow, wow, wow.
16:47Let me tell you something.
16:49If you want to know that the health sector is just as dead on arrival, you cannot bury your person
16:56if you have balances in that hospital.
16:59You cannot.
17:01Even the dead.
17:02What about the living?
17:03So, I think the government is busy procrastinating about what's happening and is fighting information war against the citizen.
17:11Instead of employing, am I replicating what the citizen are doing and pushing the agenda further?
17:18I think we are fighting each other.
17:19So, you feel like the government is fighting the people instead of working with them?
17:22Okay.
17:23I also feel like there is foreigners that come into the country with the aim of helping sectors like the
17:29health sector, the education sector,
17:31but then they are heavily taxed and they're not able to provide the assistance they needed.
17:35They take it right back where they came from because they're like, okay, clearly you don't need help.
17:39And I wonder, why is it that these sectors that we're keeping and being told, the health sector is fine,
17:45the education sector is fine,
17:46but us citizens that are experiencing the issues in the health sectors and we're raising these issues, why is it
17:53that we cannot be heard?
17:54It was for our benefit and we're saying it's not helping us.
17:57It's not working.
17:59All right.
17:59But when Mr. Mudamo was speaking earlier, he said, if you're not getting a government service, just speak up.
18:05But speaking up, of course, of course, and we have been at the forefront of supporting citizens to speak up.
18:12There are a lot of citizens that are speaking up, but there is also the issue of one of the
18:17participants pointed out,
18:20oh, we have buildings, but it's procurement driven budgeting.
18:24So, the services are not there.
18:26You get good buildings.
18:27This building that we are in clearly shows you that there was just the need to have this settled, the
18:32kickbacks and all that,
18:33but not the service that is supposed to be provided for this locality.
18:37So, when I asked, when I said that Mr. Mudamo said, speak up, you nearly killed me.
18:41I'm just the messenger.
18:43I'm just the messenger.
18:44And Esther, you were one of the people who was like, what, what, what, what?
18:49Because, Edith, you have a job.
18:51You don't stay at home and then wait for somebody to tell you, Edith, you're supposed to be hosting.
18:56Why are we not seeing you in our screens?
18:58You don't, you know, so it's so hilarious for somebody to say, speak up when that is the job.
19:04Like, you're meant to do this job, whether we tell you or not.
19:07So, what I'm hearing is, we don't have ideas.
19:09We don't know how to run this thing.
19:10So, tell us how to run this thing.
19:12Yeah.
19:13And it's not like we've never spoken up.
19:16We are, literally, right now, we are doing it.
19:18But what has that gotten us?
19:21It's not like we are not doing it.
19:23So, let me hear some closing remarks, because this debate can go on and on and on, right?
19:28So, I want you to help me answer this singular question.
19:31We've agreed that Harambe is part of culture, it's part of society.
19:35But government services have to be delivered by government.
19:38So, where is the balance?
19:39We need responsibilities, both from the government side and the people's side.
19:43And we have a very good constitution that gave us power, as citizens, to exercise our democratic rights through different
19:51channels.
19:52Citizens are the government, not those people who are in those offices.
19:56Those people are just there in temporary.
19:58So, we need to speak out.
19:59We need to come out and ask them questions.
20:01Why are you not doing this?
20:04And we allocated the money for those things.
20:06Why do we have double allocation in a project that is being done, especially in the health and education?
20:11Those are the questions, hard questions, we need to ask those people in the office.
20:15Fantastic comment.
20:16Who else has some suggestions?
20:18Yeah, let me hear from you.
20:19We have politicians in this country who take healthcare from outside the country.
20:23Why would you go outside the country and risk your life if your country has healthcare?
20:28Why are the kids going abroad to Ivy League universities?
20:31Our education system in Kenya is working just perfectly.
20:34Let me ask Mudama first if his children are in school here in Kenya.
20:39Oh, definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely, leftly.
20:42All right, all right.
20:43He needed to finish his comment.
20:44Let me just come back to him.
20:46Secondly, the government disappears with about 40% of your paycheck.
20:50They need to explain where this money is going.
20:52Are you talking about taxes?
20:53Yes.
20:54Me and you wake up every day to go to work.
20:56And these people take 40% of the hard-earned money that you have in your pocket.
21:00And then it disappears.
21:02What is going on in this country?
21:03But do you agree with what the contributor there said, that it's also your responsibility to ensure that you follow
21:09that money right up until it is a service to you?
21:12I agree that we are part of the problem in that we are not following up.
21:16But if the money is being circulated in ways that you cannot see, how am I supposed to know?
21:20As a common mwanainchi, how am I supposed to know that the government gave $3 billion to a hospital that
21:25does not exist?
21:26Where do I have records of that?
21:28Fair point.
21:29So let me get two more points and then we'll get some closing remarks.
21:31Look at people who are being abducted, who are being killed, who are being arrested.
21:37And now when we ask, we are told that we are anarchists, right?
21:40As we speak right now, there are people who are lost.
21:43The life of Njagi, you don't even say anything about it.
21:45The only thing, everything is working.
21:47Again, when you tell us about Kenya moving to Singapore, are you okay about this?
21:52Because it cannot move.
21:54Because who are the billionaires in Singapore?
21:56Who are the trillionaires in Singapore?
21:58They are professionals.
21:59There are people who have earned that with their degrees, masters in their profession.
22:03But come to Kenya, we want to move to Singapore.
22:06Who are the billionaires?
22:08The politicians, of course.
22:10The most corrupt people.
22:12They are the billionaires.
22:13How will you tell us, surely, that Kenya is moving to Singapore?
22:16When right now we are fundraising for somebody in the hospital.
22:20There was a disaster.
22:23And it was declared that.
22:25But we are people, we are supposed to be buying medicine to them.
22:28So when you tell us it is working, it is not working.
22:30We are raising funds right now.
22:31All right.
22:33Because of time, we have to wrap this up, yeah?
22:35So let me ask a simple question.
22:37Do you think the future of Kenya depends on Harambe's, depends on crowdfunding?
22:43Is that the future of Kenya?
22:45The government should take initiative to stay accountable and transparent.
22:50We need to know where our funds are going.
22:52Because, yes, we are young adults.
22:54But our parents are the ones who are going through all these things.
22:58They are not able to give us, even some of us, to get the basic needs.
23:02So I just want the government to take initiative and accountability to show.
23:07Because as a country, we are the ones who put you there.
23:11So it's just best for you to do what's best for us.
23:15This government building here, 10 years in the making.
23:19This is two government regimes who so far have been unable to get it off its feet.
23:23Are you confident that perhaps the next round of leaders are the ones who will be able to do something
23:27about it?
23:28Yes, if we wake up, go and take those votes, register as voters, let us bring another government.
23:34Some more solutions, please, before we wrap up.
23:37Till when will we become a begging nation? Till when will we work around as a begging ball?
23:41I think it's time we have leaders who are accountable.
23:43Elected leaders who have ideologies, not tribal-based politics.
23:47We should focus more on people who have ideologies to make sure the economy grows.
23:52The people of Kenya actually feel the impact of good political governance.
23:56Some more solutions?
23:58A solution to the government, do not fight us.
24:01Do what you're supposed to be doing as a government.
24:04When we speak out, listen and actuate this.
24:07Okay.
24:07Finally?
24:09My last parting shot is we need a citizen, as far as government is concerned,
24:15we need a citizen to take our responsibilities.
24:18One, in Kenya we have one of the best policies, actually the constitution and the policies.
24:22But the implementations of these policies is the biggest elephant in the room.
24:27So we need to enforce the implementations of these policies, be it in education, in health,
24:33in all sectors, so that we as citizens can get the right services that we want.
24:38But if we sit in our comfort zones and expect government to do things, they will also continue
24:43with their normal shenanigans of eating and looting and going home.
24:49We should not be changing people, but we should be changing the system.
24:53If the system remains the same, even if we bring whoever is clean as snow, we will never treat
25:02the problem that we have in our, those systems of the government.
25:07So, Mr. Muthama, I want to give you a chance to close this debate off for us.
25:14When I say speak up, you must continue speaking up, and I'll tell you why.
25:17Your vote is the best thing you can do to speak up, yeah?
25:22Use it and use it wisely, all right?
25:24But one thing we need to realize, we don't get leaders, we don't outsource leaders.
25:28Guess what?
25:29They come from us.
25:30All right.
25:31So, what an interesting debate.
25:34I thought we were going to be talking about public services, I thought we were going to
25:37be talking about roads, hospitals, and schools.
25:39But instead, what this issue has revealed to me very, very closely is that this is an issue
25:45about governance.
25:46Thank you all for watching.
25:54Thank you all for watching.