- 54 minutes ago
Dr. Sanjay Arora, marketer and brand thinker, joins Anas Abbar, co-founder and Group CEO of 7awi Media Group, in this episode of Culture &… by Inc. Arabia.
Category
🤖
TechTranscript
00:00AI is built on LLMs, large language models.
00:03So they have read everything, but lived nothing.
00:07They've lived nothing.
00:08You have lived, and that is where the real gap is.
00:18Today, I'm pleased to welcome Dr. Sanjay Arora,
00:21a marketer and brand thinker who has spent much of his career
00:24explaining something that sounds simple, yet incredibly difficult to master.
00:30Why people choose the brands they choose.
00:33From consumer psychology and emotional storytelling
00:37to the growing influence of data and AI,
00:40Sanjay brings an interesting perspective on how brands can remain relevant
00:45in a world where consumer attention is becoming harder to earn.
00:50Today, I want to go beyond campaigns and buzzwords
00:53and talk about people, culture, behavior,
00:56and what truly matters to a brand.
01:00Before we get started, I would like to start with this video.
01:04Dr. Sanjay explains the psychology behind spending
01:08and why things such as credit cards, one-click purchasing,
01:12and free trials reduce the psychological pain associated with pink.
01:18So let's watch the video.
01:20Did you realize spending money actually hurts your brain?
01:23Not metaphorically, literally.
01:25Neuroscientists found out something weird.
01:27The same regions of the brain light up
01:30as when you feel pain and disgust when you make a payment.
01:33Yes, pain feels like a burn.
01:35Welcome to the pain of pain.
01:37Now here's where marketing gets sneaky smart.
01:39Credit cards reduce this pain
01:40because you don't see money leave in your hand.
01:42This is perception engineering at its finest.
01:45Even bundling works.
01:46Y-price, popcorn, soda, and tickets separately
01:49when you can call it a combo deal and blur the pain.
01:52Ever notice how smart apps ask for your card details at the very end?
01:56By then, you're already emotionally invested.
01:59And guess what?
01:59You're more likely to complete the payment painfully numb.
02:02No wonder brands like Nike, Shopify, and Netflix do this.
02:06Free trials, no pain up front.
02:08Refund guarantees, no currency symbols.
02:10Trust badges, you're safe.
02:11Also, your brain says,
02:13go ahead, it's fine.
02:15Doesn't even hurt.
02:16But don't get it twisted.
02:17This isn't kindness.
02:18This is conversion strategy.
02:20Designed to hack your psychology
02:21to make you buy more with less resistance.
02:24Send it to a marketeer who needs to learn this
02:27and give me in our comments below,
02:28what do you feel about it?
02:30Sanjay, this is fascinating
02:32and slightly scary to be honest.
02:35How much of modern marketing is truly
02:38and actually psychology versus marketing?
02:42So if you ask me,
02:44since I've always been very fascinated
02:46with behavioral economics, behavioral science,
02:50and the reason marketing either succeeds
02:54or doesn't succeed, in my opinion,
02:56lies to a very large extent
02:58in understanding human psychology.
03:01Why does a human being behave in a way if he does?
03:04Why for the same stimuli,
03:06two people react completely differently?
03:09So if one cannot understand
03:11what drives a human being,
03:14then it is very difficult to really get into
03:17what we call as real hardcore marketing.
03:20Okay, so there are facets of marketing
03:24like any faculty, any domain.
03:27There is a science of marketing
03:29where you have all kinds of numbers, data,
03:32which is also critical.
03:32And then there is the mystery
03:35or the mystique of marketing,
03:37which cannot be broken down to algorithms.
03:41Okay, and I guess the best reflection of that
03:44is the human brain itself.
03:46So you've got two lobes to our brain,
03:47the right and the left.
03:49Okay, the left is all logical.
03:51Okay, this model has been discredited.
03:52Maybe there are disputes about it now,
03:55but for a very long time,
03:58classical neuros physicians believed this.
04:00And to a certain extent,
04:02I think we still have,
04:04I should say,
04:06deep insights into how a human mind behaves.
04:09So the left side is for logic.
04:12The right side is for intuitive activities.
04:15And it's the blend of these two
04:16which makes me a human being
04:18and not an AI,
04:19which will be,
04:20I'm sure,
04:21no marketing discussion
04:22or no management discussion.
04:23For that matter,
04:23no discussion today is complete
04:25without bringing in AI.
04:25So I'm sure you're going to be asking me
04:27something about that too.
04:27And there is now enough research to prove,
04:30in fact,
04:30I quote a behavioral scientist
04:33from Harvard also.
04:34He says,
04:3595% of human decisions,
04:38buying decisions,
04:39are made subconsciously.
04:41That means,
04:42even before I know
04:43what I'm going to do,
04:44I've already made up that mind
04:46to do that.
04:47I don't know yet.
04:48I'm still ignorant of it.
04:49And then when I behave that way,
04:50I rationalize it post facto.
04:53You can justify it.
04:54You justify it.
04:55Yes.
04:55Yes.
04:56That's how a human being is made.
04:58Absolutely.
04:59All right.
04:59Let's drill down to our conversation.
05:01I think it's a great introduction
05:02and an eye opener.
05:04You talk a lot about brands
05:06but what really makes you
05:09personally fall in love
05:10with a brand?
05:12Not as a marketeer,
05:13but as a consumer.
05:16Yeah.
05:16So you know what?
05:18One,
05:19marketing is like dating.
05:20When we're first dating,
05:22okay,
05:22we put our best foot forward.
05:24So my dress,
05:25my shoes are polished
05:26and well done up,
05:28etc.
05:29So everything is best then.
05:30That is what marketing does
05:31to entice a consumer,
05:34which is basically
05:34the showroom,
05:35the packaging,
05:36all that is designed
05:37and the campaign,
05:38everything is put
05:39the best foot forward
05:40to get the consumer
05:41to buy in.
05:42The real love happens
05:45once you're married.
05:46Either it happens
05:47or it doesn't happen.
05:48And the same analogy
05:49goes to products
05:50that we buy too.
05:51So it's in the moment
05:53of crisis
05:53that you either
05:54love a brand
05:55or don't love a brand.
05:56So I give,
05:57you know,
05:57for me,
05:58I used to love
06:00Apple a lot.
06:01The iPhone,
06:02the MacBook,
06:03the iPad,
06:04these,
06:04everything is Apple
06:05for me,
06:05all right?
06:06But of course,
06:06the company has changed
06:07and I'll talk about it
06:08in a little detail later,
06:09maybe.
06:10But I remember the Apple,
06:12I bought my daughter
06:13an iPod.
06:14You know,
06:15when there were only iPods,
06:16the iPhone was still
06:17to come along.
06:18And it was her birthday gift
06:20and she was very attached to it.
06:22And one day it fell down
06:23and I think something went wrong.
06:25It stopped working.
06:26I took it to my local Apple shop.
06:28Without a single question,
06:30I was given a new product.
06:32That is when you fall in love
06:33with a brand.
06:34When you're in a crisis,
06:35your car breaks down,
06:36you call up.
06:37Without a question,
06:38either a replacement is sent
06:40or a crew is sent
06:42to do something about it.
06:43Those are the moments of truth
06:45which make you either
06:46fall in love with a brand
06:47or hate a brand.
06:48Not the glitzy showrooms.
06:49And I'm so surprised
06:51that companies
06:53spend millions of dollars
06:54on make-believe.
06:56The showrooms,
06:57the air campaigns,
06:58etc., etc.
06:59And hardly anything
07:01for the moments of truth.
07:03The companies
07:04which have spent
07:04for moments of truth
07:06when I really need,
07:07okay,
07:08have probably
07:09had to do fewer campaigns
07:11and less money there.
07:12So marketing is all about
07:14falling in love with brands
07:15is all about
07:16understanding those moments
07:17of truth
07:17when the consumer,
07:19the customer needs you
07:20and fulfilling those promises
07:22at that point.
07:23That's what character is.
07:25And strategy is just
07:26companies being good
07:28when it is being observed.
07:29Character is when
07:30the company is not being observed
07:32and yet decides to perform,
07:34decides to deliver.
07:36If I may,
07:37like, you know,
07:38as we're having this conversation,
07:40I can only think
07:41of Emirates Airlines
07:43because to me,
07:44why would you fall in love
07:46with this brand
07:47is when your flight
07:48is delayed
07:49and you are
07:50well taken care of
07:52in these times.
07:53This is when you realize
07:55that this brand
07:56cares about me
07:57as a consumer.
07:58Absolutely too.
07:59And I do love
08:00that brand incidentally.
08:01Whenever I come there.
08:02So, yeah.
08:03This is a plug for Emirates.
08:05You can charge them for me.
08:09Sanjay,
08:10you mentioned something earlier
08:12that people often
08:13make decisions emotionally
08:14and then they justify
08:17them rationally.
08:18Does this really apply
08:20to CEOs and businesses?
08:22You know,
08:22is it just consumer
08:24but actually,
08:25is it also applicable
08:26to the CEOs?
08:29Absolutely.
08:30In fact,
08:31if you ask me,
08:32it applies more to CEOs
08:33than two products
08:35because the higher
08:36you climb,
08:37the less data
08:38that you've got.
08:39An executive down there
08:41has enormous data
08:43to make some basic decisions.
08:45When you're up there,
08:46you're making enormous decisions
08:47with very little data.
08:49Where would you want to be
08:50five years from now?
08:51Which new market
08:52would you want to enter?
08:54Who should be the successor?
08:55These are the questions
08:56that you are wrestling with
08:57at the top of the pyramid,
08:59you know.
08:59And there is very little data
09:01for that.
09:01And data incidentally
09:03is something,
09:03you know,
09:04which is only hindsight.
09:07You've got a
09:07rear view mirror
09:08and you're trying
09:09to make decisions
09:09for the future,
09:11what you see
09:11through the windscreen
09:12based on looking
09:13at the rear view mirror.
09:15And that's what
09:16data does to you.
09:17Data is important.
09:18I'm not denying
09:18the importance of data.
09:20But for a CEO,
09:22often enough,
09:23these emotional decisions
09:24are couched
09:26in a different language.
09:27They may be couched
09:28in something like,
09:29you know,
09:29this is the most
09:30strategically rational
09:31decision to take
09:32at this point
09:33based on this
09:34consultant's report.
09:35Now,
09:35that's a deck.
09:36He's already
09:36taken the decision
09:37and he's now
09:38wanting something
09:39to justify
09:40those decisions.
09:41Yeah.
09:41Are you saying
09:42that,
09:42you know,
09:43for the CEOs
09:44with the
09:47abundant data
09:48that we're seeing
09:49and dashboards
09:49and AI,
09:50all of this,
09:51that the C-levels
09:53are overly
09:54focusing
09:56on numbers
09:57and somehow
09:58forgetting
09:59the human
10:00aspect
10:01of the conversation?
10:04Absolutely.
10:04And that is happening
10:05across the board.
10:06If you look at
10:07why
10:08the ones
10:09iconic brands
10:10today are not
10:11performing as well,
10:12it is because,
10:13in my opinion,
10:15because of the
10:15quarterly reporting
10:16that the CEOs
10:17have got to do
10:17to the investors.
10:19All right.
10:20For every CEO,
10:21the tenure is limited
10:22and you want to
10:23do the best
10:24that you can
10:25for that quarter
10:26report every quarter
10:27as good.
10:27So no one's
10:28thinking long term.
10:29Who's looking at
10:29seven years from now,
10:30ten years from now?
10:31And that is where
10:32the family managed
10:33companies,
10:34the large ones
10:34who decided
10:35not to list
10:35on the stock exchange
10:36are today
10:37doing much better.
10:38So,
10:40why do you
10:41hire a CEO
10:42at the ridiculous
10:43salaries that you do?
10:44For his judgment,
10:46he has to take calls
10:48which come with
10:4930-40 years
10:50that he spent
10:51in the marketplace,
10:52you know,
10:53and therefore
10:53is supposed
10:54to have
10:55that wisdom
10:55to decide.
10:56Anyone can decide
10:58based on data.
10:59AI can decide
10:59based on data.
11:01A human being
11:02is there
11:02because of his
11:03enriched experience
11:04distributed through
11:06which you come
11:06to certain conclusions.
11:08That's your
11:08individual judgment
11:09and no data
11:11can replace that.
11:12So can we,
11:13you know,
11:14I want to put you
11:15on the spot
11:15in terms of
11:16an example
11:16of a brand
11:18that you think
11:19most marketers
11:21completely misunderstood
11:23and what did
11:24it actually
11:25get right?
11:26A brand
11:27that suddenly
11:27comes to mind
11:28is IKEA.
11:30So,
11:30most people
11:31think IKEA
11:32became successful
11:33because it was
11:34cheaper.
11:34It was far
11:36more economical
11:36in Europe,
11:37etc.,
11:38when it launched.
11:39But the reason
11:39later behavioral
11:41scientists have found
11:41is very,
11:42very different.
11:43In fact,
11:44you know,
11:44today you can get
11:46furniture
11:47which is
11:47about half
11:48the price
11:49of IKEA,
11:50same material,
11:50same product,
11:51same material,
11:52across anywhere
11:53in the world.
11:54But why does
11:55IKEA make you
11:56drive to the
11:57edge of the city,
11:58do all the work,
11:59walk through
12:00the aisles,
12:01which are endless,
12:02you know,
12:03in a way.
12:03And there is no exit.
12:05You have to finish
12:06that round.
12:06Someone must have
12:07designed that.
12:08So,
12:09all of this
12:10is complete
12:12consumer psychology
12:13if you ask me.
12:15And there is a
12:16word that
12:16behavioral psychologists
12:17have given.
12:18It's called
12:18the IKEA effect.
12:20Anything that
12:20you make,
12:22you value more.
12:24Your effort
12:25has gone into it,
12:26you have gone
12:26into it directly.
12:27And therefore,
12:28you value that
12:28product more.
12:29So,
12:30after all the effort
12:31you put together
12:32in IKEA piece
12:32of furniture,
12:34you're the one
12:34who's the creator.
12:36And therefore,
12:37you value it
12:37far more than
12:38what you buy
12:39off the shelf.
12:40And that
12:41is called
12:41the IKEA effect.
12:42And various
12:43other companies
12:43are also now
12:44using it.
12:44In fact,
12:45this was an
12:45interesting,
12:46there was this,
12:47what was the
12:47brand?
12:49At 63,
12:49I tend to
12:50forget names.
12:52Yeah.
12:52So,
12:53this was a cake
12:53mix in the
12:54US back in
12:54the 40s,
12:551940s or
12:56something.
12:56And they
12:57launched a
12:58ready-made
12:58cake mix.
12:59All you needed
13:00to do was
13:00add water,
13:02whip it up,
13:03and put it
13:03in the oven.
13:05And
13:07everyone
13:07expecting it
13:08to be
13:08extremely
13:09successful,
13:10it bombed.
13:10And then
13:12they came
13:13in a
13:14psychologist
13:14who advised
13:15them,
13:16okay,
13:16separate the
13:16eggs,
13:17have the
13:17lady of
13:18the house
13:18add the
13:19eggs
13:19separately,
13:19and then
13:20whip it.
13:21And the
13:21same
13:21formulation,
13:22which was
13:22earlier easier,
13:24made it
13:24slightly more
13:25difficult because
13:25now she had
13:26to add the
13:26eggs,
13:27brought her
13:28own involvement
13:28into the
13:29product,
13:29and therefore
13:30it did
13:31extremely well
13:32after that.
13:32So,
13:33this is,
13:34no data can
13:35tell you this
13:36already.
13:37These are
13:37products which
13:39make a
13:40very simple
13:40product and
13:41think it
13:41has to be
13:42successful.
13:42It is not
13:43because you
13:43eliminated the
13:44role of the
13:46responsible
13:47person for
13:47doing it
13:48completely
13:48from it,
13:49and therefore
13:49it bombs.
13:50So,
13:50these are the
13:51products that
13:51have
13:51misunderstood.
13:52So,
13:52you can't
13:53just extract
13:54the human
13:55aspect of
13:56this.
13:56Humans need
13:57to continue
13:58to be
13:58involved,
13:59whether in
14:00assembling
14:00an IKEA
14:01furniture or
14:02cracking two
14:03eggs in
14:04a cake.
14:06Incidentally,
14:07this is again
14:07misunderstood
14:08often.
14:09So,
14:09we say
14:09we're going
14:10towards a
14:11world of
14:11making things
14:11more and
14:12more frictionless.
14:13The example
14:13of the video
14:14payments,
14:15etc.
14:15So,
14:15there are
14:16contexts to
14:16everything.
14:18You have
14:19people waiting
14:20in queues
14:21to pay out
14:22after a
14:23lovely
14:23experience in
14:24the supermarket
14:25and then
14:25waiting to
14:26make the
14:27payment is,
14:28I think,
14:28the biggest
14:28pain each
14:29of us have.
14:30Now,
14:30this tells me
14:31something about
14:32the inefficiency
14:32of the
14:33supermarket and
14:34not bringing
14:35in a friction
14:36which will make
14:36me proud of
14:37something.
14:38IKEA brought
14:38in the
14:39friction,
14:39that was my
14:40contribution to
14:41something I'm
14:42going to use.
14:43Here it is
14:44something very
14:44different.
14:45So,
14:45where you bring
14:45in the
14:46friction and
14:46where you
14:46take it away,
14:47this context
14:48needs to be
14:48understood well.
14:49This is amazing.
14:50It goes to my
14:51next question,
14:52which is the
14:53storytelling part
14:54of the
14:54conversation.
14:55Is there a
14:56line between
14:58storytelling and
14:59simply you're
15:00manipulating the
15:01consumer to
15:02convince them
15:03to crack the
15:04egg?
15:04There is an
15:05acid test to
15:06this.
15:07If you've
15:08done brilliant
15:10storytelling,
15:11the consumer
15:12buys it,
15:13gets the
15:13product.
15:14The day
15:14after is the
15:15test.
15:16If he still
15:16feels good
15:17and feels
15:18proud and
15:19talks to
15:20friends about
15:21how he bought
15:22this product and
15:22is happy with
15:23it, that is
15:24good storytelling,
15:25that is honest
15:25storytelling.
15:26But if the
15:27next day or
15:28two days later,
15:29the customer
15:30feels slightly
15:31cheated, that
15:32is dishonored
15:33storytelling.
15:34And then he's
15:35not going to be
15:35praising the
15:36product to his
15:36friends.
15:37So transparency,
15:39honesty, is the
15:40ultimate acid test
15:41of a good story.
15:43A story built on
15:44facts and truths
15:45about any brand
15:46is the right
15:47story to do.
15:48But a story
15:49which is
15:50superficial, which
15:51doesn't rise from
15:53the DNA of the
15:54brand, is false
15:55and is going to
15:56fall flat sooner
15:56or later.
15:57So the morning
15:58after test is
15:59good, both
15:59for, again,
16:00I repeat my
16:01analogy, for
16:02the marriage
16:02as well as
16:03purchase decision.
16:04One year later
16:05if you've made
16:06the right decision,
16:07that's a happy
16:07marriage.
16:08And then
16:09otherwise we all
16:10know what
16:10happens.
16:13I want to
16:14shift back to
16:15the CEO
16:15conversation.
16:16Everyone wants
16:17to build their
16:19own personal
16:19brand.
16:20Do you
16:21believe that
16:22CEOs need to
16:23become content
16:24creators so
16:26that, whether
16:27it's on LinkedIn
16:27or any other
16:28platform,
16:29that they
16:30become the
16:31brand themselves?
16:32Not every
16:33CEO needs to
16:34create content.
16:35Despite doing
16:36it all my
16:37life today,
16:38okay, and
16:38I'm churning
16:39out content
16:40like a machine
16:41day in and
16:41day out,
16:42I don't think
16:43CEOs should
16:45always, always
16:46be content
16:47creators.
16:49But CEOs
16:50should be
16:50knowable.
16:51And that,
16:52these are two
16:53different things.
16:54when I say
16:54they should be
16:55knowable to
16:55become a
16:56brand, you
16:57should have
16:58something in
16:59you which is
17:00respected,
17:03reputation can
17:04be built on
17:04which, and
17:05which is your
17:05differentiator,
17:06which is your
17:07point of view,
17:08which is your
17:09strong point of
17:09view.
17:10Now, that
17:10kind of a
17:11CEO will
17:11get written
17:12about.
17:12So, I'll
17:13give you from
17:13an Indian
17:13example, a
17:14very large
17:15conglomerate of
17:16India called
17:16Wipro, from
17:17end-to-end, from
17:18IT services to
17:18consumer, FMCG,
17:19etc.
17:21The promoter,
17:23again,
17:24slipping my
17:24name, the
17:25name is
17:26slipping me.
17:27Okay, he is
17:27the least
17:28exposed CEO,
17:30but highly
17:30respected,
17:31highly respected.
17:32And the other
17:33end of you
17:33have Anand
17:34Mahindra, again
17:35a very respected
17:36CEO, very
17:37active on
17:37social media
17:38platforms, does
17:39a lot of
17:39content.
17:40So, there
17:40is no, you
17:43know, one
17:43side takes
17:44it all.
17:44You could
17:45be an
17:45extremely good
17:46CEO with
17:46enjoying a
17:47brilliant
17:48reputation and
17:49not doing
17:50any content,
17:51but you
17:52are knowable
17:52because of,
17:53because, you
17:54know, ultimately
17:55it's all
17:55boils down to
17:56your truth.
17:56If you want
17:57to be known
17:58as an honest,
17:59hardworking,
17:59ethical guy,
18:00this has to
18:01be visible and
18:02this is visible
18:02to your people
18:03in your office
18:03every single
18:04day.
18:05Okay, and
18:06if you're not
18:07that and you're
18:07wanting to
18:08portray that
18:08image, that
18:09gets shattered
18:10very, very
18:10soon.
18:11Because people
18:11inside and
18:12outside, there
18:13is an osmosis
18:14happening.
18:14Information is
18:15traveling both
18:16ways and you
18:16can't build a
18:17false image.
18:19Whereas,
18:20someone who's
18:21really honest,
18:22has no content,
18:23that also gets
18:24carried, the
18:24information gets
18:25carried.
18:25Yes, you have
18:26to be knowable,
18:27but that doesn't
18:28mean you have
18:29to create that.
18:30But I'll bring
18:31this again with
18:31a caveat.
18:33In today's
18:34world, and I
18:35don't know who
18:35said this, all
18:37of us, whether
18:38we like it or
18:39not, are media
18:40companies.
18:41We have more
18:42power in our
18:43hands than
18:45probably ever
18:46was given to
18:47anyone.
18:47why am I
18:48speaking to
18:49you today?
18:49We've never
18:50known each
18:51other, only
18:52because I do
18:52something on
18:53social media
18:54that you
18:54saw, you
18:55felt, okay, I
18:55could add
18:56value, you
18:56brought me
18:57on.
18:57Otherwise, I
18:58am sitting in
18:59a very small
18:59city of India
19:00called Nakpur.
19:01There was no
19:01way I could be
19:02doing programs
19:03across the
19:03world with
19:04whatever little
19:05from the
19:06small place.
19:07Now, the
19:08upside is of
19:09course tremendous
19:09because you
19:10increase your
19:11surface area.
19:11when I say
19:12increase your
19:13surface area,
19:13that means more
19:14people today
19:15know about
19:16me than I
19:18could have
19:18ever done in
19:19old days.
19:20Probably a local
19:21newspaper would
19:21have carried a
19:22news item about
19:23me and about
19:2450,000 people in
19:25my city would
19:26have known about
19:26me.
19:27But today,
19:27incidentally, I
19:28have done three
19:29programs, talk
19:31shows in Dubai
19:31in the last one
19:32year.
19:33I didn't know
19:34any of them.
19:35Why was this
19:36possible?
19:36Because we have
19:37a whole broadcast
19:39station in our
19:40hands today.
19:40this is my
19:41broadcast station.
19:42It is more
19:43powerful than any
19:44television channel
19:45today if I can
19:46get it right.
19:46So yes, you can
19:47leverage it, but
19:48not necessarily the
19:49degree of CO
19:50should be.
19:50It will help
19:51you, of course.
19:53So, Anjay, we
19:53have a saying
19:54here in the
19:54company, content
19:56is king,
19:58distribution is
19:59king conk.
20:00Because you
20:02could be sitting
20:02on the best
20:03content.
20:04If you cannot
20:05widen the
20:06amplification of
20:07that content,
20:08you know,
20:09the content
20:10absolutely no
20:10use.
20:11Absolutely
20:12use.
20:13You know,
20:14shifting topics
20:15to AI,
20:17obviously, you
20:17know, everyone's
20:19topic today.
20:20How do you see
20:21the future of
20:21marketers, you
20:23know, a year,
20:25three years, five
20:25years?
20:26I don't know.
20:26You know, now AI
20:27is capable of doing
20:28pretty much everything
20:29for you, from
20:30creating the script,
20:31the images, even
20:32selecting the
20:33campaign that you
20:34need to run, and
20:35the platform that you
20:36should be running.
20:37So, where does
20:38that take
20:39marketers to?
20:41AI is built on
20:42LLMs, large
20:44language models.
20:45So, they have
20:45read everything, but
20:46lived nothing.
20:48They've lived
20:48nothing.
20:49You have lived, and
20:51that is where the
20:51real gap is.
20:53The lived
20:53experience, you
20:55know.
20:55And if you look at
20:56the two ends, one,
20:58anything begins with
20:59an insight.
21:01Okay?
21:02And at the end of
21:03the chain is
21:04accountability, what
21:05you've achieved, whether
21:06successful or
21:07failed, you know, a
21:08failure.
21:09You are accountable.
21:10The LLM, the AI
21:12agent, is not
21:13accountable.
21:14All right?
21:14Between these two is
21:15a process which we
21:16can use AI for.
21:17I'm all for AI,
21:19all right?
21:19But, these two ends
21:21require human beings.
21:22You, so, if I tell
21:24AI today, maybe a
21:26chat GPT, cloud,
21:27whatever, you know, I
21:27am handling this
21:29product, new brand,
21:30this kind of a
21:31market, what kind
21:32of campaigns can I
21:32do?
21:33It will throw up 50
21:34different routes to
21:36communicate, right?
21:37What can be said
21:38about it?
21:39Now, sitting here, I
21:41have to make a
21:42decision.
21:43Which out of these
21:4350 are most likely
21:47to succeed?
21:47And if I haven't been
21:49to the marketplace,
21:50if I have not spoken
21:50to the customer, if
21:51I have not seen
21:52customers behave in
21:54a real-life situation,
21:56I will not know
21:57which to use.
21:58So, that insight is
22:00what is going to
22:01decide whether I am
22:02going to be successful
22:03or not.
22:04And at the end, the
22:04accountability will be
22:05mine.
22:06I can't turn around
22:06and say tomorrow,
22:07you know, Lord,
22:09that's responsible for
22:10this.
22:10So, at both ends is
22:12where human beings
22:13come in.
22:13The process, okay,
22:15the process is far
22:16faster, better, for
22:17all you can do.
22:18Definitely, yes, you
22:19react.
22:20So, it's like, you
22:20know, the first human
22:21being that may have
22:22got a chisel and a
22:22hammer.
22:23Okay, everyone had a
22:24chisel and a hammer.
22:25Did that make
22:25everyone a good
22:26sculptor?
22:27No.
22:28The image first came
22:29in this mind, what
22:30do I want to do with
22:31this piece of stone?
22:32And then the skill,
22:34competence.
22:35So, the process today,
22:37and another thing is,
22:38very critical here.
22:40Most AI stuff has
22:41already started looking
22:42similar.
22:43If you've seen designs
22:44being generated, social
22:46media posts being
22:47different.
22:47Very true.
22:48And the whole idea
22:49of marketing is to be
22:50at the edge, is to be
22:51different.
22:51Okay.
22:52When everyone is doing
22:53the same thing, AI is
22:54churning out the same
22:55thing, more or less,
22:56all right, then comes
22:58in the human being who
22:59can bring something so
23:01different.
23:02So, it's like the 3D
23:05printers, they're
23:06churning out the same
23:07stuff and then you
23:08have a handcrafted
23:09stuff.
23:10Okay.
23:11So, that's where the
23:12edge lies.
23:13And that can only come
23:15from a human being.
23:15AI is a very, very
23:17useful, powerful
23:18tool.
23:20Who will use it?
23:21A human being.
23:23So, a human being has
23:23lived experiences and
23:25we should use those
23:25more often.
23:26Nice.
23:27You know, I think it's
23:29clear that for
23:30marketers, don't worry,
23:32you will continue to
23:33have your roles and
23:35jobs, but it is how
23:36creative you are in
23:39leveraging these tools
23:40to your advantage.
23:41Absolutely, sir.
23:42I want to now shift to
23:44something that is dear
23:46to me.
23:46It's the youth of
23:49both geographies,
23:51India and the
23:52Middle East.
23:53We have so much in
23:54common, right?
23:56Right.
23:57Young population,
23:59multicultural,
24:00very digital savvy.
24:03What would you call
24:04two things?
24:05And have you, you know,
24:05the fact that you've
24:06lived and been to
24:08the Middle East,
24:09what are some of the
24:11things that you would
24:12call out are
24:13being misunderstood
24:15between the two
24:16regions, whether it's,
24:18you know, India to
24:19the GCC and the
24:21Middle East and
24:21vice versa?
24:22So, Indian brands
24:23treat Gulf as an
24:26India abroad.
24:27All right.
24:29And Gulf brands
24:31treat India as one
24:32country.
24:33And both mistakes are
24:34very costly.
24:35When I come to the
24:37UAE, India is, of
24:39course, one of the
24:39largest expat
24:40populations, but it
24:42is only one of them.
24:43There are various
24:44nationalities you've got
24:45to address.
24:46They come with their
24:47own roots, own
24:48backgrounds, own
24:49biases and all of
24:50that.
24:51You need to understand
24:52all of those and
24:53then build something
24:54big.
24:55Okay.
24:55Similarly, India is
24:57one of the most
24:58complex countries.
24:59I travel the world.
25:00Okay.
25:00And India is probably
25:01more diverse than all
25:03of Europe put together.
25:04All of Europe put
25:05together.
25:05Absolutely.
25:06In fact, as an
25:07Indian, I find it
25:08very difficult to
25:09understand India.
25:09So, I don't expect
25:10a foreigner to be
25:11able to decipher it
25:12in a year or so.
25:14All right.
25:14So, if I go to
25:15South India, there
25:16are towns which I
25:17can't pronounce names
25:18of today.
25:19The way the
25:21lifestyle is lived
25:22there is very
25:24different from what
25:25I and Nagpur do and
25:26someone in the
25:27Northeast would do.
25:28So, India is many
25:29countries just roll
25:31together as one
25:32nation called India.
25:33And you have to
25:33address all of these
25:34with the right kind
25:36of texturing to
25:37your offerings and
25:39communication.
25:40That's how I put
25:41it.
25:42And similarly, when
25:43you look at UAE,
25:44now again, UAE
25:45or GCC, these are
25:47so different as
25:48countries.
25:49Saudi is very
25:50young.
25:51Qatar is completely
25:52different.
25:52Oman is slightly
25:54I don't want to
25:54stereotype anything.
25:55Okay.
25:56But yeah, Oman is
25:57slightly laid back.
25:58Bahrain is different.
25:59So, these countries
26:01have such rich
26:03history, such
26:04culture, absolute.
26:06You know, you need
26:06to understand those
26:07things and then
26:08think of marketing
26:10there.
26:11You can't sit
26:12sitting here,
26:12can't think of
26:13that one
26:14homogenous GCC
26:15market and just
26:16push stuff.
26:17Not possible.
26:18Sorry.
26:18Indian brands,
26:20Indians are very
26:21price sensitive.
26:22All right.
26:23So, even the guy
26:25who's buying in
26:26premium, he will
26:27have a discussion.
26:28He has all the
26:29money, but he
26:30will think twice,
26:31evaluate.
26:32Even for small
26:33things, we
26:33evaluate.
26:35Probably a person
26:36sitting in Dubai,
26:38for small things,
26:39hardly any research.
26:41Instant buys.
26:42Okay.
26:43Larger items, yes.
26:45Similarities, we
26:46are both very
26:47family oriented.
26:48Most big decisions
26:49are discussed
26:50within the household
26:51and then taken.
26:52Okay.
26:53If you're buying a
26:54new house, you're
26:55building something
26:56big, these are
26:57family decisions
26:58most of the time.
26:59Okay.
27:00They're discussed.
27:01Our marketing
27:02textbooks are
27:03written for the
27:03Western world,
27:04where the society
27:05is very individualistic
27:06and very, they
27:08are saturated
27:09markets, slow,
27:10growth markets,
27:11we are young,
27:12we are fast
27:12growth, we are
27:13not individualistic,
27:15we are more
27:15family oriented.
27:17So the textbooks
27:17were not written
27:18for us, for our
27:19brands.
27:19We need to write
27:21our own textbooks,
27:22figure out our
27:22own culture and
27:23what works here.
27:24And I tell you
27:25honestly, most of
27:26the times that is
27:27not done.
27:27I love the
27:29explanation and I
27:30think if I want
27:31to summarize it
27:33with what you
27:33started by saying
27:35is that Indians
27:36look at the
27:38Arab board as
27:39the India,
27:40outside India,
27:41and we in the
27:42Arab board look
27:43at India as
27:44one country,
27:46one entity,
27:47which is not
27:48very rich.
27:481.4 billion
27:49consumers.
27:50Absolutely.
27:50And I had
27:52the privilege
27:52while I was
27:54working at
27:54Microsoft to
27:55visit India
27:56quite a bit
27:57and the
27:58languages,
27:59the culture,
27:59all of that
28:00are just
28:01mind-boggling
28:02in terms of
28:04and the
28:06richness.
28:07Yes, yes.
28:07If I was a
28:10marketeer
28:11studying in
28:12business school
28:12today, what
28:14would be one
28:15thing that you
28:17will give them?
28:17You'll tell them
28:18erase everything
28:19that you've
28:20learned, but
28:21here is one
28:22principle that
28:22you should live
28:23by.
28:24Okay.
28:25The one word
28:26I want erased
28:27from marketing
28:28textbooks and
28:28marketing lexicon
28:29is consumer.
28:32If you look at
28:33a human being,
28:34for only that
28:36half an hour of
28:36interaction,
28:37where he either
28:38buys the
28:39product or
28:39doesn't buy the
28:40product, you're
28:41demeaning that
28:41human being.
28:42Okay, you've
28:43got a slide
28:43which says
28:46persona, XYZ,
28:47say Gita,
28:48Mukherjee,
28:49lady, 39
28:51years, two
28:52kids, one in
28:53college, one in
28:54school, husband
28:55in an MNC.
28:56Now that's a
28:57slide, that's not
28:58really, the
28:59moment you are
28:59done creating
29:00some communication
29:01for her, that's
29:02it.
29:03You only think of
29:04that person now
29:05as how can I
29:06make that person
29:07buy?
29:09Okay, if you
29:10start looking at
29:11that person as a
29:12human being, then
29:13you look at it
29:14very, very
29:15differently.
29:15You will look at
29:16it, all her days
29:18are not the same.
29:19All her hours
29:20within the day
29:21are not the same.
29:22She is
29:22hassled in the
29:23morning when
29:23there is a
29:23tiffin to be
29:24made for the
29:24child, something
29:25to be done for
29:26the husband, and
29:27she has to go
29:28out and work
29:28also today.
29:29So this is a
29:30typical Indian
29:31household.
29:31I know it
29:31sounds sexist
29:32that she is
29:32doing this and
29:33he is doing
29:33this, but
29:34that's the
29:34reality and
29:35I am calling
29:36it out here.
29:38So every
29:39moment in her
29:40life is
29:40different.
29:41Mornings are
29:41different.
29:42Afternoons are
29:42different.
29:43Evenings are
29:43different.
29:44The days are
29:44different.
29:44And in this
29:46whole rush and
29:49run and
29:49everything, where
29:52do I get to
29:53see the
29:54product's message,
29:55the product?
29:56For me, in a
29:57conference room,
29:58sitting in the
29:59AC and talking
30:00on a slide, it
30:01looks very easy.
30:02That attention
30:03starved lady
30:04cannot possibly
30:06give that kind
30:07of time to
30:07understand your
30:08message, to
30:09decipher it,
30:10internalize it,
30:11and then go and
30:12try your product.
30:13She is time
30:14starved.
30:14So, we
30:15need to think
30:16of human
30:17beings as
30:18human first
30:20and consumers
30:21later.
30:22Currently, the
30:23thought process
30:24is consumer.
30:26That means
30:26born to only
30:28consume till
30:29she dies.
30:30And I have to
30:31ensure that I
30:32somehow am able
30:32to get a
30:33larger share of
30:34that wallet.
30:34That is the
30:36wrong way of
30:36looking at
30:37marketing.
30:37If I empathize
30:39with that person,
30:40her emotions,
30:42everything, I
30:42have got a
30:42long-term
30:43relationship
30:43happening.
30:45We should
30:45get this
30:45correct first.
30:47Amazing.
30:47I always
30:48like to wrap
30:49up my
30:50conversation
30:50with a
30:51question.
30:52And I
30:52think I
30:54already know
30:54the answer,
30:55but I want
30:56to hear it
30:56from you.
30:57Finish this
30:57sentence.
30:58Great
30:59marketing is
31:00not about
31:00selling.
31:01Great
31:01marketing is
31:02about
31:03understanding
31:04people,
31:06understanding
31:06human beings.
31:07Because selling
31:08ends the
31:08moment the
31:09transaction is
31:10done.
31:10Selling is
31:11one hundredth of
31:12a part of
31:12marketing.
31:13Marketing
31:13existed before
31:14that to
31:14decide what
31:15kind of a
31:15product was
31:16to be designed
31:17for this
31:17human being.
31:18And it
31:18carries on
31:19much after
31:20the transaction
31:20has happened
31:21to ensure
31:21that delight
31:22is there and
31:23that person
31:23keeps asking
31:24for the same
31:24product.
31:24So right in
31:25the beginning,
31:26I gave you the
31:26example of
31:27Apple, my
31:27daughter and
31:28the product.
31:29Right now,
31:30it's not the
31:30same Apple.
31:31That's my
31:31tragedy.
31:32I should love
31:32this brand.
31:33I still own
31:33the brand,
31:34but my love
31:34intensity has
31:35gone down many,
31:36many notches.
31:37Why so?
31:38Same thing.
31:40A phone,
31:40iPhone I bought,
31:42something goes
31:42wrong.
31:43I went to
31:44the store.
31:45Again, by the
31:46way, it was
31:46my daughter's
31:47phone.
31:47Okay, I
31:47had bought
31:48it.
31:48And now,
31:49they've got so
31:50many boxes to
31:51tick.
31:52And if two
31:53ticks are missing,
31:54we can't
31:54replace it.
31:55Then what
31:55happens?
31:55You need to
31:56change XB.
31:57And that
31:58part is as
31:59expensive as a
32:00normal new
32:01phone.
32:01New phone,
32:02yeah.
32:03So one of the
32:03days of Steve
32:04Jobs, when you
32:05could, you
32:05know, no
32:06questions asked,
32:06replacements
32:07that made you
32:08love the
32:09brand.
32:10And today,
32:10you live in a
32:10different world.
32:11They've gone
32:12very commercial.
32:12And this is not
32:13just one isolated
32:14experience.
32:14I have many
32:15such experiences
32:16with Apple.
32:16Even the product
32:17quality isn't
32:17as great as
32:18it used to
32:19be.
32:19Things tend
32:19to go a
32:20little wrong
32:20these days.
32:21Earlier,
32:21an Apple
32:22product,
32:22you wouldn't
32:22be 100%
32:23assured.
32:23Nothing will
32:24happen.
32:24So I think
32:26something is
32:26not going to
32:27right there.
32:28I hope Apple
32:29will take note
32:29of this because
32:31I hear it
32:32over and
32:33over.
32:34Dr.
32:34Sanjay,
32:35it was a
32:35pleasure
32:37conversation
32:37to have
32:38with you.
32:39And I
32:39hope we'll
32:40have an
32:40opportunity to
32:41meet in
32:42person next
32:43time.
32:44I look forward
32:44to that.
32:45It will be my
32:45honor and
32:46pleasure.
32:46Thank you so
32:46much for
32:47having me here.
32:48Dr.
32:48Dr.
32:48Sanjay.
32:49play
Comments