- 4 minutes ago
Long before Soundgarden helped shape the Seattle grunge movement, Kim Thayil says the band sensed they were creating something that “didn’t really sound like anything else.” In a revealing conversation with Joann Butler on Joann Butler In Studio With…, the guitar great discusses his new memoir, A Screaming Life: Into the Superunknown with Soundgarden and Beyond, and reminisces on early days jamming with Chris Cornell and Hiro Yamamoto in Seattle, the moment they realized their chemistry was undeniable, and why nobody in the scene actually liked the word “grunge.” Thayil also discusses Cornell’s evolution from drummer to frontman, the emotional responsibility of finishing unreleased Soundgarden recordings, and his experience with synesthesia, describing how he associates music with colors and shapes. He shares how his perspective on the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame changed over time and recalls the surprising moment Soundgarden collectively decided to turn down Gene Simmons, despite being longtime Kiss fans. Thoughtful, funny, and deeply reflective, Thayil offers a rare inside look at one of rock’s most influential bands — and the stories behind the music that shaped a generation. This is a LifeMinute with Kim Thayil.
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LifestyleTranscript
00:00It would have been tougher to write about it in the 90s, although it might have been more popular.
00:04The last time we spoke, you were like, grunge wasn't even a thing.
00:07At the time, nobody liked the term grunge.
00:10How could you say no to Gene Simmons?
00:12I wouldn't have said no to Gene Simmons.
00:14If he made a request of me, that'd be different, but the request was of the band.
00:18When did you realize, oh my gosh, like, this is good?
00:21I mean, instantly.
00:22That first day, we wrote three songs.
00:24We were just looking at each other and smiling and dumbfounded, like, how did that happen?
00:29After Chris passed, you were having issues getting the rights.
00:32You got the rights.
00:33So tell us about the new music.
00:34This material has been in existence for over 10 years in some cases.
00:40It's important for the legacy of Soundgarden.
00:42It's important for the legacy of Chris Quinrell.
00:45Hi, I'm Kim Thile of Soundgarden, and you're in studio with Joanne Butler.
00:52Kim Thile, in the house.
00:53I haven't seen a copy yet.
00:54Let me see that.
00:56Oh, cool.
00:56I have to tell you, I'm really enjoying this.
00:59It's really good.
01:01Congratulations.
01:02Really well done.
01:02I believe it reads quickly like a Kurt Vonnegut book.
01:06I thank Adam Teppetlin for that.
01:08He has an experienced sense of pacing, you know.
01:11Yes.
01:12So what made you do it?
01:13Why now?
01:14It was actually proposed to me by Adam Teppetlin, you know, like, probably back in 2019.
01:20And we had some mutual friends, and he came to me with the idea of doing a book.
01:26I kind of hesitated a little bit.
01:27You know, there were a number of other things going on.
01:29I was somewhat busy.
01:31Then the pandemic hit, which both afforded us some more time, but also impeded our ability to get together.
01:40For one, he's based out of Victoria, you know, in British Columbia.
01:46And I don't recall how far into the pandemic this occurred, but they eventually shut down the border.
01:53So my interest was in getting together with him over a few beers at like a pub or a tavern,
02:00you know, have dinner and stuff.
02:02He had previously written, one of his first books was on extreme beers, you know, odd beers.
02:07And he kind of paired it thematically with heavy metal culture.
02:11And so I thought, well, let's get together and drink a few beers.
02:14And when the pandemic shut everything down, we thought, well, we can do it by phone.
02:19And I thought, well, then it'd just be a decade's worth of phoners.
02:24And I thought that would be satisfying.
02:26And we thought we could do it by Zoom.
02:28And I had no idea what that was until the pandemic proceeded.
02:33And I became obligated to extended family get togethers via Zoom and then eventually business meetings with attorneys and accountants.
02:46So I got a little bit more accustomed to it.
02:49See, here I am.
02:50It worked.
02:51Let's talk about it.
02:53Let's talk about you.
02:54Why did you feel compelled to tell your story?
02:57Partly Adam talked me into it.
02:59You know, I talked to a few other friends and they thought, oh, yeah, you know, it's there were certainly
03:02things to cover.
03:03We're far enough away from the initial impact of Seattle and the Seattle milieu.
03:10And and there had been enough transition.
03:13Bands had broken up and come and gone and people got married, had kids, et cetera.
03:18It seemed like, well, we could talk about it now.
03:21We can probably have a different perspective and be able to reflect on the scene, our friends, our colleagues, where
03:30we were, where we where we are now.
03:32It would have been tougher to write about it in the 90s, although it might have been more popular.
03:37But we were still either ascending or moving sideways or whatever.
03:40But I think I think things had calmed down enough, especially during the pandemic.
03:45I thought, well, you know, there's there's certainly a volume of anecdotes and references and reflections that we can now
03:55address.
03:56Yeah. One of the things you said, I found it interesting because the last time we spoke, you're like grunge
04:01wasn't even a thing.
04:02I don't even know. But now here you say, you know, before grunge.
04:06So that that's one of the things that you look at.
04:09At the time, nobody liked the term grunge.
04:12I think everyone just kind of saw themselves as we kind of came out of the sort of the punk
04:18rock art rock sort of scene underground indie underground.
04:22But it was definitely post post punk.
04:26So I just don't think we had a clear reference or label.
04:30And when grunge is is is hooky, it's one syllable.
04:34It's kind of got the, you know, it's alliterative with punk to some degree.
04:39And now you appreciate it now.
04:41It allowed for retail to file things and also for magazine.
04:46It probably helped editors like understand, you know, what what the story is and how it, you know, how it
04:52fits with things.
04:53It's just an easy way to package it and sell it.
04:55It's a little ribbon, but none of us liked it.
04:58Here's why we now use the reference, because no one expected, of course, Nirvana to go through the roof, followed
05:05by Pearl Jam.
05:06And then subsequently, you know, Alice in Chains and us smashing pumpkins, even the presidents of the United States.
05:13There's so many things happening that we were dedicated to the investment in time and in our career, because as
05:21more demands fell upon us, you know, traveling, touring, work, interviews, TV, radio.
05:28So what was just that weird little beer fueled hobby to aunts and uncles, bosses and coworkers now became that
05:40thing that those guys are doing.
05:43That's their career.
05:43We saw them on TV.
05:44We heard them on the radio.
05:46So other questions come up in conversations.
05:51Usually my family or friends, family or girlfriend's dad wouldn't really bother with your rock and roll hobby that you
06:00that you have.
06:02Now people are curious.
06:03I've seen you before.
06:05I think, you know, do you play in a band?
06:08Yes.
06:08What is the name of your band?
06:10And of course, everyone knew Nirvana and Pearl Jam there.
06:13They might have at the time, at a certain time, early in the 90s, people were less familiar with, you
06:19know, the bands that hadn't become as huge or ubiquitous household names like Nirvana and Pearl Jam were.
06:26So we would just say, you know, grunge.
06:29Have you heard of Nirvana?
06:30Have you heard of Pearl Jam?
06:31So grunge was a term that was adopted more by the mainstream that allowed us to connect with older people
06:40and maybe people who were less involved with the music business.
06:43It's to let them know what you do and where you do it and with who.
06:48Yep.
06:49What about your early starts?
06:51So Hero kind of got you in, but you were not so sure about it.
06:55You were like, eh, who is this guy?
06:57Chris with the short hair?
06:58Like, and then you were like, wow.
06:59I'd met Chris and I played in a couple shows in a band with Chris.
07:05It was a band that Chris actually had started with one of my other roommates and with Hero.
07:12Heroes actually went on the record on some video telling that origin story.
07:17And it's all inside out and sideways.
07:20I watched it.
07:20I thought there's demonstrable evidence that what you're saying did not occur or could not have occurred.
07:26One of them is a photo of Hero and Chris and my two roommates, Matt and Dean, together in the
07:32band.
07:33One of my roommates was the founder of this band called The Shamps.
07:36He was a guitarist, a very good guitarist.
07:39I mean, I learned stuff from him in high school.
07:41He was like the hotshot.
07:43And my other roommate was a drummer.
07:45They auditioned Chris to sing.
07:47Although Hero reports in a few interviews that they auditioned Chris to drum.
07:52No, they had a drummer.
07:54And by the way, this was Hero's band.
07:56It wasn't my band.
07:56It was Hero, this drummer, this guitarist.
08:00And then they auditioned Chris to sing.
08:02And then they did a bunch of press photos.
08:04And then Hero quit.
08:06And they had a bunch of gigs lined up.
08:08And my roommate said, can you play bass?
08:12We can borrow a bass.
08:13Can you learn these parts?
08:15Because we had these gigs coming up.
08:16And I did.
08:17I played about five gigs of them.
08:19Two of them with Chris singing.
08:22He was underage.
08:23And a couple of them were at bars.
08:24I think he needed to get a permit or whatever.
08:27I think we had a keyboardist in the band at some point.
08:30And he sang.
08:31And then I think Chris, Hero's roommate, who was a drummer in Hero's previous band, moved out of that house.
08:39And so Hero had space available.
08:41And Chris was a drummer looking for a place to live and put his drums.
08:46But now he wasn't drumming in this band.
08:48It was his opportunity to try singing in this band, the Shemps.
08:52But he was looking for a place where he could bang on his drums and not disturb the neighbors.
08:56And Hero had that place.
08:58And a drummer had just vacated.
08:59So that's how that happened.
09:01So they were jamming together as a rhythm section.
09:03They were looking for lead instruments to perform with them.
09:05They jammed with mostly guitarists, but I think a few keyboardists.
09:09And yes, Hero tried to get me into jam.
09:13I was going to college.
09:15I was at the University of Washington.
09:16I had a couple more quarters to finish up.
09:19I just started this amazing relationship that would end up lasting for 10 years.
09:24And I was working at the United Indians of All Tribes Foundation at the Daybreak Star Cultural Arts Building in
09:33Discovery Park in Magnolia.
09:35All these things took up a lot of time.
09:37Plus, I was DJing like once a week or had been DJing at the university's radio station, KCMU, which became
09:46KEXP.
09:47So that's why I declined.
09:49I just didn't have available time.
09:51And weekends were made for my, were set aside for my new girlfriend, going to movies, going to dinner.
09:57I had work during the main part of the week and classes.
10:03So we agreed that I'd come by on Mondays or Tuesdays.
10:08So he pushed me to come jam with them on Monday.
10:11It went great.
10:12He said, can you come back the next day?
10:14I'm not working the next day.
10:15Yes, I'll come back.
10:17We enjoyed it.
10:18It was amazing.
10:21And subsequent Mondays and Tuesdays, we did as well.
10:25And that became the thing.
10:26Thank God it became the thing.
10:28But what was it like?
10:29Like, you know, when did you realize, oh my gosh, like this is good.
10:33Like it's working.
10:34We sound good.
10:35I mean, instantly.
10:37And I just thought, seriously, I thought I was just going to humor hero, jam for a bit, have some
10:44beer.
10:45You know, I didn't know Chris was a drummer.
10:47I was only aware of him singing in this band that did Doors and Stones covers.
10:52But my focus at that time wasn't being in a band.
10:55I mean, I was totally filled up, full-time job, full-time school, relationship, DJing on the side.
11:03So that's what was amazing about it is that I was not prepared and barely interested.
11:10I just thought it would be something social to do, just do some music and drink some beer.
11:15And that first day, we wrote three songs.
11:18I mean, we were all so excited about them.
11:20I mean, we were just looking at each other and smiling and dumbfounded, like, how did that happen?
11:26We all immediately thought, this is cooler than any band we've ever been in before.
11:32And Chris felt that way.
11:33Hero felt that way.
11:34I felt that way.
11:35It was original music we were coming up with.
11:38It didn't really sound like anything else.
11:40We can kind of reference things like Bauhaus or Killing Joke or maybe Susie and the Banshees or something.
11:48But a little bit heavier and a little bit, it was interesting.
11:53And it was more than interesting.
11:55I mean, we were all kind of slack-jawed, smiling, like, did that just happen?
12:01Let's, Hero would say, hey, I got this other riff.
12:03Do you guys want to jam on that?
12:04Sure.
12:05And bam, bam, bam.
12:07All of a sudden, we have another song.
12:08We decided to just document them.
12:10We just had a cheap little four-track, reel-to-reel recorder that Chris and Hero knew how to operate.
12:15And let's record that so we don't forget it.
12:17The next day, we come back and listen to it.
12:20And we're still enthused by it.
12:22It's like, oh, my God, we did that?
12:24We jam some more.
12:25We write two more songs.
12:27So just like that, in two sessions, maybe they were three or four-hour sessions each,
12:33we've written five songs, and we've impressed each other and ourselves.
12:39And that was that.
12:41It just became so exciting.
12:42And then I couldn't come back and jam for a while for a few weeks because I had other things
12:47to do.
12:48And Hero kept calling, saying, you liked what we did, didn't you?
12:52Yes.
12:52I loved what we did.
12:54Well, why don't you come back and jam?
12:56I'm just so busy right now.
12:58You know, well, eventually, he goes, when?
13:00He's just really being bushy.
13:01Like he was my lead in some factory or something, you know.
13:05I don't know, man.
13:08And I think a week or two later, or the subsequent week, maybe two weeks later, he was getting
13:14kind of antsy and saying, look, dude, do you want to do this or not?
13:20I go, yeah.
13:21I just don't know where to find the time.
13:23He was, just come by tomorrow.
13:25Let's just try it again, okay?
13:27All right.
13:27All right.
13:28He talked me into it.
13:29I had to move a bunch of stuff aside, go back there, jam, write another song.
13:36So next thing you know, I'm sitting in philosophy of art class, just doodling in my notebook
13:43and writing lists of art songs.
13:45Oh, my God.
13:46Possible titles for the songs we worked on.
13:49And then, has Matt come in yet?
13:52No.
13:53Okay.
13:53Matt didn't come in for another three years, I think.
13:56Remember, we had a drummer.
13:57His name was Chris.
13:59Right.
13:59So, when did you realize he was a better singer than a drummer?
14:03Like, how did that come?
14:04How did that happen?
14:05That took a while.
14:07Chris is a perfectly adequate singer.
14:10I mean, he had no problem.
14:11I've said this in a few interviews, we just thought that Chris's singing style was more,
14:17you know, a bit conventional because our experience was with Chris singing Doors and Stone songs.
14:24I mean, you bar rock.
14:25I mean, every city has that area or had, at least in the 70s and 80s and 90s, they all
14:32had that area of town where the tourists go, you know, and there's bars and it's kind of
14:38blues bass and boogie bass and classic rock bass, mostly 60s and 70s stuff.
14:45Every city has that district or two.
14:48And Seattle was not, you know, it was not unlike the rest of the country or Canada or Europe
14:55in that regard.
14:56So, if Chris is singing something that, if his singing style is somewhat commonplace,
15:03maybe even pedestrian from our perspective, playing in this cover band, then that is not
15:13going to be the focus or stand out, you know, quality about his performance.
15:17What we liked was the way he played drums with Hero and the way they wrote.
15:23I mean, Chris would have ideas for arrangements.
15:26And then he'd go down to his room and say, you know what?
15:29I've got some lyrics that might fit that.
15:32And he would.
15:33He'd keep a little notebook full lyrics and he'd try the lyrics to see if they fit with
15:37the meter and tempo of the song.
15:40And he'd kind of play drums and sing at the same time, which is a difficult thing to do.
15:45Eventually, at some point, we, you know, we had to decide, well, he'll sing better if
15:49he's if he doesn't have his four limbs committed to a drum kit.
15:55But we really like Chris as our drummer.
15:59We like the way he plays.
16:00We like the way he writes the dynamic.
16:03He has an idea of the songs instrumentally.
16:05So what do we do here?
16:07Well, we can keep writing.
16:09He can keep writing lyrics and we'll find someone else to sing.
16:12Someone who may be stylistically someone who had a broader palette than simply a beer bar,
16:19you know, on the weekend.
16:21That's that's what we were thinking.
16:23But really, when Chris was freed up from the drums, he pretty much left a few anchors
16:29or weights aside that liberated him, not just in terms of his stage presence, but in terms
16:38of his ability to sing what he could sing.
16:41It wasn't weighed down by his duties as a drummer.
16:45And so what we saw then was that his vocal range and abilities were greater than what he was doing
16:52in a limited capacity by trying to do both.
16:56Amazing.
16:57And then as the songs grew, his style changed and grew to accommodate the themes of the songs
17:04and the musical styles.
17:06So you know what I said?
17:09Synesthesia.
17:10That was neat.
17:11I found that interesting.
17:13When you guys are creating, you said, like, I might object to one part that someone was proposing.
17:19I might object because purple clashed with other parts.
17:23Oh, but I didn't know.
17:24I didn't know the yellow triangle and you're presenting me with a purple circle.
17:28Yeah, that was a humorous reference.
17:31I did not know what synesthesia.
17:33I do have synesthesia, but I didn't know that in the 80s.
17:37I don't think I learned what the term was until late 90s or early 2000s.
17:42I had described this aspect of the way I would perceive things, you know, in terms of colors
17:49and in some cases shapes with words and numbers and with numerals, letters.
17:57And I wasn't aware that there was a term for that or a word for that.
18:02And usually when I shared that with friends or family members, they just looked at me like,
18:06yeah, you're even weirder than we thought.
18:09And then eventually, I saw some like documentary on like the Discovery Channel back when Discovery
18:14actually did things about science and nature.
18:18Yeah, I know.
18:19Me too.
18:19You're worried about it now.
18:20About aliens and crop circles.
18:23So, I saw this program.
18:25I think it was that.
18:26It might have been on PBS.
18:27And it was the same thing.
18:29I just saw them.
18:30They were interviewing people who were describing some of these phenomena that they experience.
18:35And my mouth just, again, the same thing.
18:38My jaw just dropped.
18:39And I was like, this guy is specifically addressing a phenomenon that I've been telling people since
18:46grade school.
18:47And I was just like, holy, this is weird.
18:49Is someone like looking at my journals or what?
18:52It was the strangest thing because I'd never met anyone who had shared that kind of experience or perception.
19:04And then now I hear it being described on some primetime TV show.
19:09Wow.
19:10And it was just so bizarre.
19:12It was like someone was in my head like describing a particular image or experience or even a dream that
19:22you have.
19:22And here they are describing it.
19:24So, I waited until the show replayed again.
19:28And I watched the whole thing.
19:29And I kind of took notes.
19:31Like, what is it?
19:32Synesthesia.
19:33And then a few years later, my sister, who is seven years younger than me, so it's not the kind
19:38of conversation we would have had growing up.
19:41And she starts describing this phenomenon that she experiences.
19:44And I tell her, yes.
19:47And then you do this.
19:48And then does this happen?
19:49And then do you see this?
19:50And she thought, oh, my big brother's making fun of me.
19:53Where are you getting that from?
19:54I go, because I do that.
19:55She goes, you're just saying that to copy me.
19:57I go, no.
19:59And then I go, perhaps because we're both our parents' children.
20:03And she sent me a book.
20:05She's worked in libraries much of her life.
20:08And she had found a book about it.
20:10She sent it to me.
20:11And there was like this one chapter described, a few chapters described the phenomenon of something I did.
20:19So that was big.
20:21And there now was a name for this thing that I had experienced.
20:26How did it help you?
20:28How does it come to you?
20:29How does the music come to you and the sounds?
20:31And it's not as profound as some people experience.
20:35Like what I learned, Natasha Snyder, who played.
20:39Yes, Alan's, oh, I love Alan.
20:41Yeah.
20:41Alan's a good friend, actually.
20:43Yeah, Alan Johannes and Natasha Snyder.
20:45Yeah.
20:45He stayed here last year, actually.
20:48I should tell him that we.
20:49Yeah, I got a text from him yesterday.
20:52Natasha was telling me that when she heard music, she would actually see the notes as colors like in front
20:59of her.
21:00That's a that's a more profound synesthetic phenomenon that she experienced.
21:05I don't recall doing that or having that kind of experience at all.
21:10You know, maybe when I was a kid.
21:11Mine is more with like letters and numbers and sounds words.
21:17Oh, OK.
21:18And that really helped me.
21:20It helped me growing up.
21:22I think it was beneficial.
21:25I was pretty good at math growing up in arithmetic, at least.
21:29And I think part of that reason is being able to like each number had an assigned color and you
21:33can move around.
21:33It's easier to remember where where things were and stuff.
21:36And similarly, with words and letters and names that that you have an idea of certain colors that work well
21:43together and pair together.
21:44So song titles, lyrics, things like that.
21:48There there are references to shapes and colors that I've always gotten from music.
21:53Now, I don't know if that's synesthesia.
21:56I haven't seen that phenomenon described in that book.
21:59That may be just a way that people create references either by through analogy or metaphor for the music that
22:07they have, because many musicians and producers will communicate aspects of the audio in terms of visual references.
22:19And that isn't necessarily synesthesia.
22:21It's just it's just trying to create a visual analog that that people can understand, like you refer to a
22:27song being angular or or round or thick or sharp or bright or whatever.
22:33The last time we spoke after Chris passed, it was right during covid.
22:38You're having legal issues, you know, with his ex and everything, getting the rights.
22:42You've got the rights.
22:43So tell us about the new the new music.
22:45You were saying it might be coming.
22:47That was the last thing you told me.
22:48It might be coming.
22:49And now we know it's coming.
22:51What do you say?
22:52It's do me.
22:53I would say new recordings or newly.
22:56Recordings.
22:57Right.
22:57This material has been in existence for over 10 years in some cases, you know, 14, 15 years.
23:04It says it was in various stages of of writing, sharing, learning, recording.
23:15So what we need to do is finish that process.
23:21And most of the process, most of the writing had been complete.
23:25So it's mostly about recording.
23:28There were things that had been demoed by me, by Matt, by Chris, by Ben.
23:34But again, demo, they're very rough.
23:37They're sketches.
23:38Just you start a little pencil sketch and you fill it in and with whatever chalks or oils
23:44or pastels.
23:45And and that's what we have to do is is finish the sketches.
23:48And and we're in that process.
23:51It is atypical in the way we approach it.
23:54There isn't a record label budgeting time and money with a particular schedule with everybody
24:01else's obligations professionally or with family or whatever.
24:05We have to find the time and coordinate amongst ourselves to to address the work.
24:13And it's been addressed.
24:14And it's coming.
24:16It's.
24:17I hope it's coming.
24:19It's very, very important to all of us.
24:23It's important for the legacy of Soundgarden.
24:25It's important for the legacy of Chris Quinrell.
24:27It is doing right by our collective work is doing right by our partner and friend.
24:34What was he really like?
24:36I don't know if we have enough time.
24:37What is anyone really like?
24:40I think he's fairly straightforward and sincere.
24:44If you watch interviews with him, there's no reason for him to be anything other than
24:50that forthcoming and sincere about his feelings and attitudes about his work or or whatever
24:58people talk about relationships.
25:00Rock Hall.
25:01Was that an honor?
25:02Yeah, I think so.
25:03No, I think it was an honor.
25:05You know, if you had asked me 20 years ago, I would have gone, ah, whatever.
25:08But, you know, I'm older.
25:10I've learned how important it is to friends, family and fans.
25:14And and would they get excited about that recognition about something they believe in,
25:19something that they have supported for years, something they've enjoyed, something
25:23that meant something to them?
25:24And that is when my understanding changed and grew over the years.
25:29It was particularly addressed by Chris and Matt, who both experienced it, you know, before Soundgarden.
25:35Well, Chris intended, I think he had inducted Hart and he said, wow, there's a lot of enthusiasm
25:42from the fans directed towards their favorite artists who are being inducted.
25:49And he said he realized what a big deal it was.
25:53And he's heard that from Soundgarden fans.
25:56And so he thought he conveyed that to me.
25:59And I regarded, you know, his his insights and his experiences.
26:04And Matt said something similar when Pearl Jam went in.
26:07And so all of that changed my understanding and regard for the Hall of Fame.
26:12Is there anything in the book that you hesitated to include?
26:16You know, when you're a kid and there's things that you share with family and friends,
26:21you want to make sure that you're not breaching the confidence with your friends.
26:27It's you're nothing.
26:28There's, you know, there's there's no kiss and tell.
26:31I mean, I think there's enough discretion, you know, on my part that when I talk about friends
26:38or partners or or family members who keep the salacious stuff, you know, between ourselves
26:44and any witnesses, I don't think I I describe any juvenile crimes.
26:52All right.
26:52So now what's next for you?
26:55Are you going to be playing?
26:56I'm going to be doing some more interviews and promoting this book and then popping into the
27:01studio to to make my guitar sound a little bit better and get these songs as exciting
27:07for us as they can be.
27:08Well, you think you'll be getting together and playing again or touring or anything?
27:12We like playing and we like playing with the together.
27:16Matt and Ben and I like playing together.
27:18And we know that if we want to enjoy the songs that we played for decades, that that satisfaction
27:27of performing this material can only really happen with the three of us.
27:32It could only happen with the four of us.
27:35But since there's three of us remaining, then we know that that is that window of opportunity
27:43for us to share with each other material that we that we performed on and wrote on together.
27:50So do you have a favorite song?
27:52Couple that that that's that's always changing.
27:55You know, I might might say something now and it'll be something later in the evening.
28:00I hear you.
28:01Oh, I love the kiss story, too.
28:03Oh, my God.
28:03It was so funny.
28:04Do you ever talk to Gene Simmons now?
28:06Like how could you say no to Gene Simmons?
28:09I wouldn't have said no to Gene Simmons other than it was an individual.
28:14If he made a request of me, that'd be different.
28:16But the request was of the band and there was four guys in the band that that didn't
28:21see eye to eye on.
28:23We have a lot of shared references, you know, with with the bands and that inspired us.
28:29But there are places where it varies, you know, I was a pretty big kiss man as a teenager.
28:35No, that was pure pressure.
28:37I can't believe it.
28:39But why did you say no?
28:41Did you ever talk about it later?
28:42And what?
28:43It's a collective decision because because this is Matt and I.
28:47I mean, there's there's other guys in the band that aren't weren't interested, you know.
28:51Kim, thank you so much.
28:53Thank you, Joanne.
28:55For more of this interview, check out Life Minute on all streaming podcast platforms.