- 8 hours ago
When Zara Larsson and Robyn meet in Stockholm for Rolling Stone’s eighth annual Musicians on Musicians series, it's both a homecoming and a familiar reunion for the Swedish pop superstars. This year, they went from mutual admirers to recurring collaborators, with Robyn joining Larsson on the Midnight Sun: Girl’s Trip remix of “Puss Puss” and Larsson returning the favor on the heart-racing Sexistential remix “Talk to Me, Zara.” But the connection between the two artists goes far beyond the studio. Having both launched their careers as ambitious teenagers, Robyn and Larsson have experienced what it's like to have their bold personalities perceived as something to be tampered down. Their refusal to shrink resulted in cancelled brand deals in Larsson’s case, and skeptics tossing tomatoes on stage in Robyn’s. And yet, the pop empires both artists have built are not only wholly intact, but extend across generations. Settling into the comfort of being back home, Robyn and Larsson talk and laugh about creating pop smashes, controversies, and the eternal greatness of Madonna.
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MusicTranscript
00:00You've just kind of always been there, you know, I think what was your first album?
00:062002? No, 97, 97, 95, yes, that's when I was born, 97.
00:24Hey Sara, how are you? How are you?
00:28It's so nice that I'm speaking Swedish.
00:31It's weird speaking English together when we're both Swedish.
00:34Yes, but it's so nice to be with you here.
00:37You as well.
00:38Yeah, you as well.
00:39Lovely to have this conversation with you.
00:41I'm also a little nervous.
00:43Me too.
00:45It could have been Swedish too.
00:47I remember when I first met you, I think it was like an acne thing.
00:50Yes.
00:51And it was like peak Covid and Sweden was weird with that because people like went out and it was
00:56sort of nothing was closed.
00:57Everything was open, but people were still like, so I was like, hey, you were like, no hugs.
01:04I'm so glad you brought this up.
01:06I respect that.
01:07This is exactly what I was going to say.
01:09I was going to say, I hope you have forgiven me for being so rude to you at that time
01:15because I was so worried.
01:17I was scared because you know what it was.
01:18I was doing IVF and I couldn't go to the hospital if I had a cold and you were like,
01:23hi.
01:24Yeah, I think I might have Covid, but you want to hug?
01:26I was like, no.
01:27Bye.
01:28I was so rude.
01:30I was like, okay.
01:30I'm sorry.
01:31That's fine.
01:32Thank you for bringing that up.
01:33Because I was going to say sorry to you.
01:35No, I actually planned it.
01:37Really?
01:37Yeah.
01:38That's fun.
01:38No, I do remember that.
01:39But I remember thinking like, okay, like, okay, I respect that.
01:43Like, she's serious.
01:45Do you know the Swedish word flamsig?
01:47Hmm.
01:48That word.
01:48Is that like silly?
01:49It's like silly, right?
01:50Yeah.
01:51Having the giggles or something.
01:53Yes.
01:53And I feel like that's what you do.
01:57Yes.
01:57So much.
01:58And it's like my favorite thing to watch you on TikTok.
02:01And I think it's a superpower.
02:03Like I remember when I was a kid and me and my girlfriends would decide before like school
02:08ended that we would go home and flamsa.
02:10Oh.
02:10You know, like a date.
02:11I love that.
02:11Yeah.
02:12Yes.
02:13Like, let's go home and flamsa.
02:14And then we would like just make each other laugh to like.
02:17That's so important.
02:18We cried.
02:18Yes.
02:19And I just wondered what you, how you value flamsa in your life.
02:24Flamsa is like, no flamsa is like, such a problem.
02:27I haven't heard that word in so long.
02:29It's, it's really like such an integral part of my being.
02:35Like, I think that is like my number one priority.
02:39Mm-hmm.
02:40And I think when I approach everything and even like my next project and the people I
02:45work with and how I, how I just live my life.
02:50I think that's so important for me to be able to have fun.
02:53And it's like a flow state, isn't it?
02:56Yes.
02:56No, it really is.
02:57I think that's what we did when we were kids.
02:59Like we got ourselves into like this flow that was just like.
03:02Yeah.
03:02And it makes you not judge yourself and not judge others.
03:06And it really just puts your guard down.
03:10And then it also makes you more creative.
03:12Mm-hmm.
03:12I really think so.
03:14Yes.
03:14And just relaxed and like more yourself.
03:16Mm-hmm.
03:17And it's almost like a drug.
03:20In a way.
03:21Like you get a high, like a, like dopamine.
03:23Yeah.
03:23And I do value flamsa a lot.
03:26I do value flamsa a lot.
03:27Thank you flamsa.
03:28Yes.
03:28Do you still feel like you do that intentionally?
03:33Yes.
03:33Yeah.
03:34Me and Klaas, who I work with a lot, we have something called Banan Radion, which is banana
03:39radio.
03:40And it's like this, also this flams state that we go into in the studio.
03:44I feel like in the studio, it's like how you, it's how you kind of create.
03:49Yes.
03:50Because you kind of have to like elevate yourself above your normal daily life.
03:56And you have to kind of like find the flow state.
03:58Yeah.
03:58But then I also feel like it's like a way to, like you were saying, to be yourself.
04:04I feel like it's underrated also as a protection for like, you know, like a female pop star.
04:10And I feel like that's what you do, that you like, because it's almost like a, it's almost
04:15like a under radar thing.
04:17Like people think you're nice and silly and fun.
04:20And then it's like, you actually use it to be yours and to protect who you are also.
04:26I do think so.
04:27It makes you and whatever I say, which sometimes is, I just have a lot of opinions about things.
04:34And I've always voiced my opinions on things ever since I was very young.
04:37Like you brought up just really quick before this, like speaking of abortions and stuff.
04:41And even when you talk about stuff like that, which is obviously a very serious conversation.
04:46I think when you speak about it with like a sprinkle of humor, I think that's just how
04:53I communicate.
04:54And I think it just lands maybe softer.
04:59But I don't know if I do that.
05:01I've never thought about it like intentionally up until recently where I just think it is kind of a good
05:07approach to reach people.
05:10I mean, I guess that's what human does.
05:12Like it, it, it changes your perspective in a second.
05:15Like all of a sudden you have to force yourself to look at it from a totally different.
05:18Yes.
05:19And I think it takes away a lot of the tension.
05:21Yeah.
05:21I think that's where like humor also is.
05:23Like you create a tension and then it's some sort of a release.
05:26I think the older I get also in the music that I make, I've just recently started to have my
05:32own sort of collaborators.
05:36And you've had that for a really long time.
05:38Like Klaus.
05:39Yeah.
05:39I think he's, he's like your number one guy.
05:41Yeah.
05:42Right.
05:42He's like the second band member.
05:44Yeah.
05:44Robin.
05:45Yeah.
05:45Yeah.
05:46No, that's amazing.
05:47Yeah.
05:47I think it's so important to have that sort of friendship and like collaborator, companion, like partner.
05:58And I just kind of got that, like with my newest album, Midnight Sun.
06:04Yeah.
06:04And it just changed everything for me.
06:05How did you find the people that you decided to work with?
06:08Well, I've been working with MNEK for a long time, a bit here and there.
06:12And I just love how he writes melodies and I love his sound selections and what he does.
06:18And then we found Margo and Heliana through my manager.
06:22And we just kind of like got together.
06:25Hey, let's try it out.
06:27And it was really magical.
06:30And then I decided we have to make this.
06:34Let's just go in.
06:35As a group.
06:36As a group.
06:37Do you feel like it changes your process, your writing process, your creative process,
06:41when you're in a room with only queer and female writers?
06:46Yes.
06:46Yeah.
06:46That was also a very active choice that I wanted to do.
06:50Because I don't know, I've just been on these speed dating things and with these writers one day,
06:56with these writers one day, with these writers one day.
06:58And I have also, like you, when you were very young, been in rooms where it's like, why I think
07:06it's nice to find your people is also because I feel the most myself.
07:12I feel like I don't really have to prove or perform in a way that would make me not feel
07:22true to myself.
07:23And you feel more seen, I guess, when you're mirrored by someone that understands your experience.
07:28With straight men or with queer people or with like people that have like the same sort of references.
07:34You just don't have to explain yourself that much.
07:39You're just understood, I think.
07:41Yeah.
07:42And that can obviously happen with anyone, but I think it's a shortcut to like get the straight men out
07:46of there.
07:47Totally.
07:47Totally.
07:48Yes.
07:48I mean, I always worked with straight men.
07:51Yeah.
07:51And that was a learning curve.
07:53Yeah.
07:54And it was also something that challenged, you know, me and my closest collaborators also.
08:02But I think what's cool about me and Klaus is that we kind of found our way through it.
08:06And that's like, because he's such an amazing person.
08:09Yeah.
08:09I'm also like 20 years younger than him.
08:12Or, I'm sorry Klaus, maybe I don't know.
08:14But also the age difference.
08:17I was a little sister and I had to really prove myself.
08:20Yes.
08:20Do you feel like that relationship just between you two have changed?
08:25Because sometimes it can be hard to find that dynamic.
08:29Yes.
08:29And then to change like from a young girl to a woman.
08:33Exactly.
08:33To then like a grown woman.
08:34Yeah.
08:35But he and I both changed and we allowed ourselves to have breaks and then come back.
08:42And what's cool about it is that when you've worked together for so long, you have the
08:46safety and then you also have hopefully this like, you know, they fall in love again and
08:52that you're like excited about it and stuff.
08:54And I didn't know if that was going to happen for this album because we worked together for
08:57like 25 years.
08:59That's amazing.
09:0020 years.
09:01How did you first then started collaborating?
09:05How did you meet each other?
09:06We were just put together by a friend that we had in common.
09:11We went to Bohem, you know, the bar on Götgatan.
09:15And we were attacked by this crazy thing, this thing that happened like around 2005 where
09:24these like evening paper, they were hired by evening papers to instigate like fights with
09:31famous people.
09:32And they had, you know, like Sweden, it would never happen.
09:35What?
09:35Like we don't have like paps or like anything.
09:37We what?
09:38Yeah.
09:38And we were attacked by these like little kids with cameras in this like little street,
09:43this like side street to the bar.
09:45And they grabbed our phones and they were like trying to get us to fight them.
09:49And Klaus bought it like he got in a fight with these guys.
09:53It was him and clear up and we went to jail.
09:56Klaus went to jail that night.
09:58Yes.
09:58That's how we met.
09:59And you're like, that's my collaborating.
10:01My guy.
10:03Hey, that's fucking crazy.
10:04Yeah.
10:05So that's like a first sort of impression almost.
10:08Yeah.
10:08Then we went to the studio.
10:10Yes.
10:10And now you have a lot to write about.
10:12Yeah.
10:12Yeah.
10:12No, but we always had so much fun.
10:14I think that's what, what.
10:16No, it's about having fun.
10:17Yeah.
10:17It's a fine line between people you get really well along with and have a good time with.
10:23Because sometimes I'm like, oh my gosh, I had the best time ever.
10:25We did the best song.
10:27Yes.
10:27And then I go home and I listen to the song and I'm like, hmm.
10:30Right.
10:31You know?
10:32Yes.
10:32And then sometimes it's the opposite.
10:34I don't have the best time in the studio, but I go home and I'm like, wow, this is a
10:38really good song.
10:39There's definitely something here.
10:40So I think when you find that, the creative part of it and the joy.
10:47And the fun.
10:48That's just when the magic happens.
10:49It's true.
10:50And that's so interesting because it's true.
10:52A lot of times like when you're in the studio and it's uncomfortable, that might not be a
10:55bad thing either.
10:57Like even in sessions where I've had like a really hard time.
11:00I didn't even like the person I was writing.
11:02But I come out with something good.
11:04Yeah.
11:05Comfort doesn't always equal a good song like you said.
11:08Yes.
11:08But the best thing is when you have both and you can have banal and radion.
11:12Yes.
11:12And like someone who challenges you.
11:14No, 100%.
11:15Yeah.
11:15I don't know.
11:16I'm not new to writing, but I definitely wouldn't say that it's like my first love in music.
11:23Do you think your first love is writing or performing or is it singing?
11:28Wow.
11:28That's a good question.
11:30I think singing was hard.
11:32Like I really had to like explore it and find my voice.
11:37It took time.
11:39So were you just...
11:40I was writing.
11:42Yeah.
11:42Create.
11:43I was writing and then I was also...
11:45I grew up with my...
11:47Seeing my mom on stage all the time.
11:49So like performing was probably the thing I was, you know, most comfortable with.
11:55Yeah.
11:55Yeah.
11:55But it took me time to feel comfortable with my voice and...
12:00You have such a unique voice though.
12:02Which is amazing.
12:03It's such an idea.
12:04Very sweet coming from you.
12:05No, but it is.
12:06You always...
12:06You can hear your voice like instantly.
12:09And that's really powerful.
12:11We're all the same.
12:14Really?
12:14I don't know.
12:15Yes.
12:15I do think I have like a good voice.
12:18You have an amazing voice.
12:18But I don't think I have like the strongest like ID in my voice.
12:24You know what I mean?
12:25Yeah.
12:25I think you do.
12:26But definitely.
12:29Yeah.
12:29But I think that's what I mean though by it took time for me to find it.
12:34Like it really was like a lot of like searching, I think, to really relax into it and feel comfortable.
12:44And...
12:45But you've always been writing.
12:47Yeah.
12:47Yes.
12:47I've always been writing.
12:48But that also took time.
12:50Like I was a shitty writer in the beginning.
12:52You have to be.
12:52You have to be like...
12:53Yeah.
12:53And you have to be okay with that and like just try stuff.
12:56And then I was just...
12:57Yeah.
12:58It's hard.
12:58It was really hard for me because I don't like things I'm not instantly good at.
13:03And I think with the singing because I've done it my whole life.
13:06Yeah.
13:06And it's just something that comes naturally for me.
13:08Mm.
13:09I've never really had to like practice it.
13:11Like you would have to do...
13:12You're such a good singer.
13:13It was amazing when you came on stage on opening.
13:16And I just hear you like...
13:17I...
13:18It just...
13:18It just comes like naturally.
13:20And that's the process I think.
13:22That's like the conception or like the misconception about songwriting is that it's fun.
13:27Yeah, yeah.
13:28It's not fun.
13:29Like it's...
13:29It's really hard.
13:30It's like a puzzle.
13:31Yeah.
13:31And it's just stressful like...
13:33Because you have to be wrong so many times for it to...
13:36Yeah.
13:36And maybe that's also where like the human Banan Rodion like makes it actually doable.
13:40Because if you didn't have fun doing it, it would be so painful.
13:42Just get frustrated.
13:43Frustrated.
13:45I saw you for such a long time, but I think it was with Lush Life that I ran.
13:50Yeah, yeah, yeah.
13:51That changed my life.
13:52For sure.
13:53That was the big moment.
13:57For me, I mean...
14:01You've just kind of always been there.
14:03I know.
14:04You know?
14:05I think...
14:06What was your first album?
14:082002?
14:09No, 90...
14:1097.
14:11Yeah.
14:1195 in Sweden.
14:1295, yes.
14:13Yeah.
14:14That's when I was born.
14:1697.
14:17So you just...
14:18And as I said, you've really had...
14:19Yes!
14:20You've had hits on every album.
14:22So it's just always been there.
14:26And I think...
14:27Been hovering over it.
14:29Yes!
14:29Yes!
14:30The mother of the pop music.
14:32But it really is like that.
14:33And I think it also makes me really excited to sit here with you because really the only time I
14:38think about being Swedish is when I'm not in Sweden.
14:41Or when I do something really Swedish, like a collab with you.
14:46Mm-hmm.
14:46You know, talk to me or even Puss Puss.
14:48It feels like Sweden.
14:51Yes!
14:52You know what I mean?
14:53And I don't really think much about that.
14:56But I know other people in other countries or places, they're very...
15:01They're amused by that, I think.
15:03Mm-hmm.
15:03About the Swedish pop phenomenon.
15:06No, it's true.
15:06It's become a thing.
15:07Yeah, for sure.
15:08And you don't think about it when you're here.
15:10No.
15:10Because it's so inherent in the culture.
15:13But you are such like a figure in that world.
15:18Like the Swedish pop world, which is huge.
15:21Yeah.
15:22Yeah.
15:22It was.
15:23It was a special moment at that time also with Max Martin starting and everything that came with it.
15:29And it was really hard to navigate it actually because no one else was doing it.
15:33So it felt very lonely.
15:35Mm-hmm.
15:36And I think in that sense it's...
15:38How so?
15:39What do you mean?
15:39Like no one was doing what?
15:40Just like writing amazing songs?
15:42No.
15:44Like no one else was doing it.
15:46No, we had to.
15:46No, but more like I felt that there was a total culture shock for me coming to America at that
15:53time.
15:54Not having anyone else to look at from like where I came from.
15:57Right.
15:58Because the cultures are different.
16:00Yes.
16:00And it was definitely lost in translation.
16:03Mm-hmm.
16:04And I think it's so fun that it's not like that anymore.
16:07Because it's so individualistic.
16:08Yeah.
16:08Like in America compared to Sweden, you know.
16:10Sweden, maybe it's changing now a bit.
16:13Mm-hmm.
16:13But it definitely has the culture of, you know, you're not better than anyone.
16:18You know, you shouldn't...
16:19In Sweden.
16:20You should...
16:20Yes.
16:20Yes, exactly.
16:21And then you go to America and it's like...
16:23You're allowed to be whatever you want.
16:25I'm the best.
16:25I'm the biggest.
16:26You know, like that's encouraged.
16:28And it's...
16:29Yeah, they're very different.
16:30You saw yourself and vocal about your opinions.
16:34Mm-hmm.
16:34You're very specific with what you think.
16:36Yeah.
16:37When you talk about your music.
16:38And when you talk about...
16:39Also, but how do you do that?
16:41Because I've thought about that, like, I think it's so brave and so kind of sophisticated
16:46how you move through the world, like with your political views.
16:51Mm-hmm.
16:52And I wonder sometimes both what it costs you.
16:56I mean, not just like the things that...
16:58Not just like the deal you lost because you talked about abortion.
17:02Yeah.
17:02There's many.
17:03There's many examples, I'm sure.
17:05Yes.
17:06Yeah, it is.
17:06How do you...
17:07How do you shape your political view?
17:10That's...
17:10Yeah.
17:10That's so interesting.
17:10Or the people you talk to.
17:12Yeah.
17:12I think...
17:14Like growing up with the internet, I used to have a blog.
17:16Mm-hmm.
17:17And I used to write a lot about my day-to-day and my outfits and like what I was
17:21thinking
17:21about.
17:21And I had it really young.
17:22From like 13, 14.
17:25And I think in that time of your life, you discover a lot of things within yourself.
17:37I also started reading more about the news and I learned better English and I think I
17:44just got a bigger picture of the world and the injustices that happens in the world.
17:49And you're also really passionate and quite angry.
17:54Mm-hmm.
17:54At least I was.
17:55Mm-hmm.
17:56As a teen.
17:57You know, I had a lot of hormones and I just thought it just wasn't right.
18:00Mm-hmm.
18:00And I think the internet really helped me discover that.
18:05But through my curiosity and I think I just fought so much with people online.
18:11Wow.
18:12In my comments.
18:13Mm-hmm.
18:14On my blog.
18:15And I'm quite reactive.
18:18Mm-hmm.
18:18So if they would say something, then I would reply to that.
18:21But like with a whole post.
18:23Through doing that, I think I just discovered what I thought about things.
18:32Cool.
18:32Because I was just like, how do I respond to this?
18:34I know that I don't agree with what this is saying.
18:37How can I like express why I don't agree?
18:42Mm-hmm.
18:43A lot of Tumblr.
18:44A lot of like Wikipedia, honestly.
18:46Mm-hmm.
18:46A lot of like following a bunch of cool feminists online.
18:50Yeah.
18:51And also being really curious of other people.
18:54Mm-hmm.
18:54And actually being empathetic at the end of the day, I do think it comes from a will to know
19:04people.
19:04What it feels like from someone else.
19:06Yeah, like why?
19:07Even people who disagree with me, it's like, why do you feel that?
19:11Mm-hmm.
19:12And this is how I feel.
19:13But it does take a lot of time.
19:15Like I'm so...
19:15It does.
19:16Right?
19:16It's like a passion.
19:17Yeah.
19:18Because even when you argue with people, there is this sort of weird connection that happens.
19:24You know?
19:26There is.
19:27There is like a...
19:28Yeah.
19:28Even if we completely disagree, we are in a passionate debate.
19:33Mm-hmm.
19:34And we are connecting somehow.
19:35Yeah.
19:36And I think it's actually also the fact that I love to connect with people.
19:41Mm-hmm.
19:41That's amazing.
19:42That's such a cool way to look at it that there's actually connection and disagreement.
19:46Yeah.
19:47I didn't think about it that way.
19:48And then it's like you get off on the connection.
19:50But you're like, yes.
19:52It is something about that.
19:53And I think it was really hard when I was younger because I also got like so much hate.
20:00Mm-hmm.
20:00But I got so much love.
20:02Yeah.
20:02And I spoke to Alexander actually, John Lund, about that.
20:05And he was telling me that people were really harsh on you as well when you were young.
20:10Yes.
20:11And I didn't know that because that was like...
20:14Pre-internet.
20:14Pre-internet.
20:15Exactly.
20:16It was only like evening news and...
20:18Yeah.
20:18I mean, we both love Carola, but like...
20:21Yeah.
20:21There were not so many like young female artists after her.
20:25Right.
20:25And I think people were still, were small country, were, you know...
20:29And you were singing in English.
20:30Were fans of young...
20:30I was singing in English.
20:31You wanted to like go international.
20:33I was, you know, cocky.
20:36Yeah.
20:36And that was not appreciated.
20:38And I actually did shows where people threw eggs on me and tomatoes.
20:42And it was like...
20:43The hate was like in the front row, like screaming at me while I was doing the shows.
20:47Because I've never had that.
20:48It was real life trolling.
20:51But I've actually never...
20:52I've had the tomatoes once.
20:54But that's it.
20:55I mean...
20:55That's it.
20:56And I think...
20:56It kind of makes it tougher, but it's hard.
20:58It is.
20:58Yeah.
20:59It's completely different, I think.
21:01Yeah.
21:01Having it online, which is where we do spend a lot of time.
21:04But like, you're so right.
21:05Like having people in real life, that's really crazy to think of.
21:12Yeah.
21:13It was a little bit scary actually.
21:14But I also think the trolling...
21:15What did you even say?
21:16But the trolling hurts too.
21:18Well, I walked off stage a couple of times.
21:20Yeah.
21:21But even for them to like feel that.
21:23Like what was it that you...
21:24Like were you really that cocky or was it just, hey, I'm a young girl and I kind of want
21:29to have success and I think I'm good.
21:31Yeah.
21:31I think it was more that actually.
21:32You know, it's like, oh, okay.
21:34But I knew how to reply to the hit.
21:36Yeah, yeah, yeah.
21:36Like I knew how to talk back.
21:38Yes.
21:38And that's of course, you know, perceived as cocky.
21:41And I think I said that, you know, like, why are you like questioning this so much?
21:46Like, because the evening news were like, does she deserve to be here?
21:49And I was like, I'm just making music about, you know, teenage, like teenage feelings.
21:53Like it's not so complicated.
21:55And I was, I was also surprised that it was the teenage girls that were...
22:00Interesting.
22:01...hating, you know, because it was usually...
22:02You would think it's the older generation.
22:05It was a little bit of both.
22:06Right.
22:06But at the shows, it was definitely people my own age.
22:09When do you feel like that shifted?
22:12Because I don't think it's like that now.
22:14I mean, you're so loved.
22:15No, it's, it's, I've been so lucky that there hasn't been any of that.
22:20Yeah.
22:20Here in Sweden.
22:22Until now.
22:23Oh.
22:23But I think that's also, and I was going to say that.
22:25Your sexy era.
22:27Yeah.
22:29I think that there's something about, how can I explain it?
22:33So when I made this album, it was like, I didn't even know it was going to be about,
22:37you know, doing IVF and having a baby and dating at the same time, all these things.
22:40I just knew what kind of music I wanted to make and I knew, oh, I want to be right
22:44below
22:44my mind and all these ideas.
22:45Yeah.
22:45And then it just became apparent, like, this is what I'm going to write about.
22:48And it was never a statement, but I think for some people here, at least in Sweden,
22:53it's perceived a little bit as like, you know, independent woman, like girl bossing,
22:58basically.
22:58Yeah.
22:59And I think for me, it was more like, I'm just pulling down my own pants, like, shit,
23:03look at my life.
23:04Right.
23:04I had a baby on my own, you know, I couldn't do it any other way.
23:07Yeah.
23:07And it felt very vulnerable to me.
23:08It is.
23:09It's personal.
23:10Yeah.
23:11And I think maybe like, that was what was so amazing about having a career outside of
23:16Sweden also, that all of a sudden there was like new, new places and new audiences that
23:24would understand me.
23:25Yeah.
23:25And I could tour for them and kind of shape the audience myself.
23:30And it was very freeing and I didn't have to relate to, to my own, like, you know, community
23:36wherever.
23:37And still, I have so much love from people here in Sweden.
23:40I don't want to at all complain because I think I've been really lucky that way.
23:45But there's something about expanding your art, your world as an artist that is, is, is
23:53really liberating and you find so many other aspects of what you're doing.
23:57And I think about that with you sometimes because I think about how, especially in America, where
24:03people are so used to pop culture in a way that we weren't at a certain time here in
24:08Sweden.
24:09Totally.
24:09And you are, you're presenting like femininity and, and you're so beautiful.
24:16And then you talk about abortion and it's like, you're totally trolling them, you know,
24:20it's like, oh, we know what this is supposed to be.
24:24Like a pretty good, cause I just dress up in the, I sort of like the fantasy of it all.
24:28You know what I mean?
24:29Which is amazing.
24:29Yes.
24:30But then you're also talking about various, you know, explosive things.
24:34And I think the combination is just, it's just like authentic.
24:38Cause in my, in my, like in my world, I think to speak about, you know, whatever abortions,
24:46immigrants, human rights, like it doesn't feel like a big thing, you know, but then you
24:52see it and you see the backlash and you're like, oh, whoops.
24:57But I think it also scared me after the, the clap back.
25:02It was also like, I'm scared of shouldering a role that is a role model.
25:11Like I felt controlled to be by the, the idea that I had to do the right thing.
25:16And I think that's what's so amazing.
25:18Yeah.
25:19And I think that's what's so amazing about you that you are, at least it feels like
25:22you're free from that pressure.
25:24Yeah.
25:25And you can still voice your opinion and it doesn't, it doesn't affect your integrity.
25:32Right.
25:32Yeah.
25:33I hope I can keep it that way.
25:37And I think it's really crazy though, what can happen with the internet of it all.
25:41And like the next generation, cause now I have, you know, young girls on my shows and
25:46they're maybe eight or nine and they're way younger than Lush Life that they, they have
25:54just discovered that song, you know, and for them, it's like, that's new to them.
26:00Um, so I, it's crazy that I've reached an, an age now where I get to see the next generation
26:09of, uh, of kids.
26:10Get into your music.
26:11Yes.
26:12That must feel amazing though.
26:13Yeah.
26:14I am.
26:15How do you feel about that?
26:17I just, I just feel like welcome.
26:19Yeah.
26:19Let's do it.
26:20And, and especially when there's younger people that kind of comment or, uh, I had
26:27this other comment the other day, which must've been from a young person on my Instagram, which
26:31was like, dancing on my own, the first pop song that started pop culture.
26:36I was like, no, that's not true, but you can, I'm happy you feel that way.
26:40And I'm not going to take it away from you at all.
26:42Like, and I think, and I think with, with the, exactly.
26:45And I think with the internet really songs have this other life.
26:48It's like something that like Kate Bush had a hit.
26:51Yes.
26:51Like a few months ago because people started to discover her music again.
26:55Totally.
26:55And there's a, and I feel, I feel like most musicians, and I think that's what you're
26:59saying too, like most musicians don't have a linear way of thinking about music.
27:02Like you make the connections and they're like without genre and you build your own.
27:06It's just a journey and you just live, you just live your life.
27:10And sometimes I've spoken to my friends about even Madonna, you know, that she's up there
27:15in her sixties and, and it's something quite punk.
27:19Yeah.
27:19About the fact that like, you can look at it two ways, you know, one, there's a woman in
27:28what a lot of people consider to be too old to be a pop star.
27:31It's like only, and only women go through this, by the way, like all the men, they just
27:35toured till they drop dead.
27:36Yeah.
27:37And she's, you know, in this corset and she's doing these dances.
27:41And it's like, is she performing for the patriarchy?
27:44But also it's like, no one's really doing that.
27:47And the fact that she's saying, fuck you guys.
27:49I love her for that.
27:50I can still be sexy.
27:51Yes.
27:51I can still go out there and do my show.
27:54Yes.
27:54Because she's Madonna.
27:55Like whatever happens in the world, like she, she is Madonna.
28:00And the fact that she is still her, like that, I think is really powerful and fun.
28:09It is.
28:10And when she talks about it, you realize how smart she is and how much she thought about
28:13it and how rooted it is in her like belief system.
28:16It's not like something that she's doing to just, like piss people off.
28:19No, she is a pioneer and, and quite punk.
28:22Totally.
28:23To just go out there and not really care.
28:28Mm-hmm.
28:29It's beautiful.
28:30Yeah.
28:31I like that.
28:31Do you feel like, do you feel pressure to, to think about what your career is going to
28:36be in 20 years?
28:38Or do you feel like the moment is now?
28:42I'm such a different artist than I was.
28:45I, I don't even know if I can consider myself an artist.
28:47Like 10 years ago when I was 18, I still had big songs at that moment.
28:51Like Lush Life was out, Never Forget You.
28:54Like, um, I think it was really close to really symphony, but I didn't feel, I think you can
29:01be a performer without being an artist.
29:03Mm-hmm.
29:04And I think you can be an amazing artist without being a great performer.
29:07Mm-hmm.
29:07And when I started out, I just wanted to sing, like I wanted to perform.
29:11But now I do consider myself an artist.
29:16Mm-hmm.
29:16Because I am in charge of, of what I make.
29:19And like what I write and how it looks and what it is and who I work with.
29:23And I think it just took me a long time to get into that.
29:27Mm-hmm.
29:27Maybe because I started so young.
29:29Mm-hmm.
29:29And, um, felt really just kind of powerless, you know?
29:34Mm-hmm.
29:34Because I had all these amazing people helping me out.
29:37And then I just never got the chance to figure out what I wanted to do.
29:42Like the, the core of it.
29:44I so recognize that.
29:46Yeah.
29:46Recognize that.
29:47And now it's like, I actually know how to do this.
29:50Mm-hmm.
29:50I've been in it for a long time.
29:52So I think just deepening, um, the artistry more and more and more.
29:57I think I care, when I was younger I cared a lot about the general public.
30:03Like the audience.
30:04What do they want?
30:04What do they want to hear?
30:06How, what should I look like?
30:08Like all of that.
30:09And then I, I hope I will get more and more into, um, myself.
30:14And, cause I feel that even now.
30:16I'm like, I don't care as much anymore.
30:18And that's ironically when other people start caring more.
30:21Because you're just more authentic and true to who you are.
30:25But I don't think there is an expiration date on a pop star.
30:29Mm-hmm.
30:29Do you ever feel like, oh, I'm done now?
30:32I think about it similarly in the sense that I don't really think about what I'm gonna do.
30:42I think about, like, what's fun.
30:45Yeah.
30:46And I know, like when I make an album I think about what is it gonna sound like on stage.
30:52Mm-hmm.
30:52And how is it gonna be performed.
30:54And like that's the moment that exists for me, even in the studio.
30:59And it's because I'm obsessed with it.
31:01Mm-hmm.
31:02And because when you're obsessed your life becomes more interesting.
31:05And more, you know, full of life.
31:08Yes.
31:09And obsession is such a gift.
31:12Yes.
31:12Like to, to really let yourself be that.
31:15To care about something.
31:15Yeah.
31:16Yeah.
31:16That is so true.
31:18I think that's the point of it.
31:20Yeah.
31:20To like go towards the fun.
31:22Yeah.
31:22Always.
31:23Yeah.
31:23For sure.
31:24But it is hard to, to be in, to be in the now.
31:27Mm-hmm.
31:28And then think about how it's gonna be received.
31:32Cause then it will be the past.
31:33I'm, I'm currently sort of recording a documentary, but we don't really have a plan for it.
31:38We just have like my photographer following me around.
31:41And, um, we film just everything.
31:46Cause I feel like I'm in, I'm in a very interesting spot in my career now.
31:49Mm-hmm.
31:49Where we started filming, um, on the very start of my US tour, which was just a small theater
31:56tour.
31:57And the first show we couldn't fit the dancers or the band.
32:00Mm-hmm.
32:00So we were like, sorry guys, like you can't perform tonight.
32:04Like the, the stage was like shaped as a little pizza and it was just the lights didn't
32:10fit.
32:10Like nothing fit.
32:11That's funny.
32:12And then the journey from that to a Madison square garden or like something that will happen
32:18in the near future, hopefully.
32:21Because to me, I think it's also about the, the journey of it all.
32:25Mm-hmm.
32:25Or like capturing a moment.
32:27Like I really want to film when I create the next album.
32:30Mm-hmm.
32:30Um, cause who knows if there's going to be an amazing song.
32:34Like I love to watch sessions.
32:36Yeah.
32:37Of say, of the moment when they come up with the melody.
32:40Mm-hmm.
32:41Um, I'm just thinking about like, I, I love the video of Swedish House Mafia when they're
32:46like, you know, they're just beaming, beaming.
32:49They're making it out.
32:50Yes.
32:50And you can just see the creative process.
32:52I think that's really exciting.
32:53Mm-hmm.
32:54Sometimes you don't even understand what it is that inspires you.
32:57Like it might be a certain conversation you keep having with your friend and there's no
33:01way you can plan how to film it.
33:03Mm-hmm.
33:04Mm-hmm.
33:04So I think, I think you're right.
33:06Like the best way is to film everything.
33:08Yeah.
33:09No, there's no idea.
33:10But then you're like, who's going to go through it all?
33:13I actually think archiving is, uh, claustrophobic.
33:17Like I, I think that archiving is amazing, but it's also really hard to have that outside
33:24perspective on yourself.
33:26I feel that way at least.
33:28And, and the best thing is if you work with other people that help you document things.
33:33Um.
33:34I mean, when it's about your life.
33:36Instead of you making it yourself.
33:37Yeah.
33:38But then you really, like you said before, you have to trust that person.
33:42Yeah.
33:42And then it's, I think possible to do maybe both, make something personal, but also let
33:48go of a little bit of control.
33:50Because I think archiving as a, as an idea is really beautiful, but it's, it's like a problem.
33:58Like we're, we have too many like hard drives taking electricity.
34:03Like we are, we need to get rid of things.
34:05Like I'm, I like to throw things away.
34:07Like I don't want to be in that mindset where I'm thinking about, you know, what's going
34:12to be the thing to save.
34:14But there are moments I wish I remembered or that I had filmed.
34:19Do you, can you come up with like one of those moments maybe that you're like,
34:23Oh, I wish I, I wish I had captured this.
34:25That I wish I had like the journey of this song or this performance.
34:30Yes.
34:31Like writing, dancing on my own.
34:33Like one of those songs that just came out of nowhere or.
34:35That would be amazing to have that material.
34:36Yeah.
34:37Yeah.
34:38I keep dancing on my own.
34:41Sometimes when you record a song or when you write a song that you, that does really
34:45well, you kind of know it when you do it.
34:47I was actually going to ask you that.
34:48Which song is that for you then?
34:50Well, I think now it's probably all of my new album Midnight Sun, but I think specifically
34:56Midnight Sun.
34:57Did you feel that way when you recorded it?
34:59Yes.
34:59I felt it when we wrote it.
35:01I felt so, speaking of like feeling, you know, it feels like a drug.
35:05It was, it was like a rush and it was just easy.
35:08Yes.
35:09And it just, it was such a, it was so quick.
35:14Now I'm starting to learn how to also go back and perfect it.
35:20But I think the overall idea kind of has to just like flow out of you.
35:25And I did feel it when I was writing and like, this is, this makes me excited.
35:31It feels like that because the way you sing it also, you can hear that it's just made
35:35for your voice.
35:36Yes.
35:36Yeah.
35:36That it's like so natural for you to go there.
35:39The melody.
35:40The, the, the beat.
35:41I love just everything about it.
35:43And I just thought to myself, that's also, I was like, this has to happen.
35:46Like this album, because if, if people aren't connecting with specifically the song Midnight
35:52Sun, which I feel like is so me, I'm like, I don't know.
35:58What I'm going to do.
35:59I don't like, like, what is it then?
36:01You know?
36:02So that was really a fun, fun time doing.
36:06And I've had a few sessions after Midnight Sun where I felt the same way of like, we
36:12are so present right now.
36:14And I think that is like the touch of God that people speak about or whatever, however
36:17they want to phrase it, is that you are so in the moment and you're connected to each
36:23other and to the experience that this flow state is, is what true creativity is like.
36:31Do you also feel that?
36:32I feel that sometimes, I mean, some songs take years, I think.
36:36And sometimes, sometimes it happens that way.
36:39With Dancing On My Own, I had been touring so much, just constantly on the road.
36:44And I think just performing a lot of songs that me and Klaus did for my first album, made
36:51me process things unconsciously.
36:54So when I got back into the studio after touring, it was very easy.
36:57It was kind of like the song came out of just having these years of just like gathering
37:02information.
37:03I don't know if you've...
37:04I think you know what I mean.
37:06Because I think when you've done it for a really long time, there are these moments where
37:09there are just like bursts of like understanding about what it is that you're supposed to do.
37:14I feel like I'm sort of in that right now, actually.
37:17I feel like you're in that right now.
37:18In certain moments, I feel like I was able or am able, I hope it happens again because
37:23you know, no.
37:24But that I'm able to like, instead of thinking about what it is that I want to do, there's
37:29enough pressure on my emotional state that when I'm in the right space, it comes, right?
37:34It just comes out.
37:35Yes, yes.
37:35And that's definitely what happened with Dancing On My Own.
37:38I think that's...
37:38Did you go to the studio knowing what you wanted to talk about?
37:42Yes.
37:42I had this idea about writing a song called Dancing On My Own.
37:45I'm like, there's Dancing By Myself, there's Dancing In The Dark, there's, you know, there's
37:50all these like, dancing with tears in my eyes.
37:54I was like, there's no Dancing On My Own.
37:56And then I had, I mean, I think the song is really just, you know, about me like wanting
38:04to connect with my dad.
38:06I think that's what all my abstract love songs are about.
38:09But when I wrote this one, it was also about different love stories that were in and out
38:14of my life.
38:15But it's so...
38:16And then it's like into one fat thing and then it comes out at the right time.
38:22You are such a good writer too.
38:28And like going through your songs through all the decades that you've been releasing music.
38:35No, but it's just like on every album there's hits.
38:39It really is.
38:40One thing I thought was quite interesting actually was on your new album, you have sort of done
38:47a remake of your old song.
38:50Yes.
38:51Of Blow My Mind.
38:52Yes.
38:53Because it's one of my favorite songs that I ever recorded.
38:56I actually, I wrote some of it in the original version and then I wrote more in this new
39:00version.
39:01But I think it was always this song that I was like, I wish it was a single.
39:05I wish I can do it again.
39:08And, you know, that there was this version out there of it that I just hadn't realized
39:12yet.
39:13That's really fun.
39:14It was fun.
39:15To like reference yourself.
39:17Yes.
39:17Or like to, yeah, to, because like why not?
39:20Why not?
39:20Yeah.
39:21Also good songs are hard to make.
39:23Yeah.
39:23And when it hasn't been exposed that much, it's like nice to kind of like read, yeah,
39:29blow it up again.
39:30I thought that was a really nice thing and like a fun thing to do.
39:33Yes.
39:33Like, okay, some different productions.
39:37And like rewriting and just, but it's still, the core of the song is still the same.
39:41Yes.
39:41Right?
39:42For sure.
39:42But it's, it's, it's kind of that thing when you're like, oh, but it wasn't.
39:46That's what I think it is with songwriting sometimes that you, you realize later what
39:49you should have done.
39:51Maybe.
39:51Do you feel that like that ever?
39:52Yes.
39:52Like you, you go back and listen to things and you're like, yeah, I would have done it
39:55that way.
39:56And it's so, it's very, it's very liberating to allow yourself to actually do it.
40:03It hit me when you came on stage in Copenhagen, how, I mean, you're just such a pro,
40:08but also how quick you were to like, just fall into it.
40:13And that happens when you've been touring.
40:15I feel like you've been touring now for like, how many years have you been?
40:19You know what?
40:20It hasn't even been that much.
40:21But you've done a lot of shows recently.
40:23Yes.
40:23Yes.
40:23It's been an intense period of shows.
40:25I would say like a year.
40:26A year.
40:27Yeah.
40:27But I even felt nervous because when it's my show, I'm just so calm with it.
40:32But when I go, when I did your show, I think it's different because it's a different stage
40:37and you have your band, it's a different build, but I do feel more, I'm in it.
40:43You know, I'm definitely in it.
40:45And it was so exciting because we got to sing Puss Puss, which we already recorded
40:50and it's out and it was the first time.
40:52And then we also did Talk To Me.
40:54Yeah.
40:55That was really fun.
40:55And you've made a remix of it.
40:57Mm-hmm.
40:58I was so excited to do it in, like in Scandinavia also.
41:01And it was the last show of the tour.
41:03The energy was beautiful.
41:05Yes.
41:05You told me before how the majority of the people in the crowd aren't on their phones
41:11and they're just in the moment and everyone just has their hands up.
41:15Did you feel like that for you?
41:16Yes.
41:16I thought it was beautiful.
41:18Yeah.
41:18It was really, really nice.
41:19And I was watching your show also before because I came on at the very end of yours.
41:23And it was just such a beautiful show.
41:28I feel like it just felt really refined and like just visually nice.
41:37Mm-hmm.
41:37Sound was amazing.
41:39And then everyone just had the best energy.
41:42Like it was so fun when you came on.
41:44Yeah.
41:44It's fun to be a special guest.
41:46Aw.
41:47You're a very special guest.
41:48It was so fun.
41:49I loved it.
41:49It really was.
41:50And I actually think you may talk to me better.
41:52Like I think it's better.
41:52You made Puss Puss better.
41:54No, you really did.
41:55I was like, damn.
41:56This should have been the original.
41:57Well, I feel too.
41:59But maybe you should, well, I mean, you should work with Michelle.
42:02Yeah.
42:03Yeah.
42:04Or we should.
42:05We should.
42:06Yes.
42:07I was like Michelle.
42:08That's what I mean.
42:08Sorry.
42:10No.
42:11Sure.
42:12Yeah.
42:12No, I would love to do that.
42:14Yeah.
42:14It would be really fun to just.
42:17Banan.
42:17Do Banan Rodion.
42:19Yes.
42:19Have a good time and just see what would happen.
42:23But I'm so happy that we could like sit down and like.
42:26You're so lovely.
42:27You're so nice.
42:28So a user and you're so inspiring and so amazing.
42:32You as well.
42:33To watch how you move through it all.
42:34Yeah.
42:34And it just makes me like excited to keep going and keep releasing new music.
42:39Mm-hmm.
42:40I can't wait to see what you're going to do.
42:41Yeah.
42:42Because now you also have this team of people that you've already collaborated with.
42:45Yes.
42:45And it became so much fun.
42:46I think the best is just is yet to come as they say.
42:51Well, it's already great.
42:53But I can't wait to see how you're going to.
42:55Yeah.
42:55And that's really nice.
42:57And like looking at your credits.
42:59I feel proud when I see you.
43:01I'm like, she's Swedish.
43:03Me as well.
43:04Yeah.
43:04You have really paved the way.
43:06I think also for me and for other Swedish artists, especially for women.
43:12Because you really were, of course, we've had ABBA and Roxette, but they, they, it's different.
43:19You know?
43:20So, thanks.
43:22We're in the same time.
43:23Yes.
43:23That's what's amazing about it.
43:24I'm so happy to like do this, your song.
43:28Mm-hmm.
43:29I love your song.
43:30I love yours.
43:31Puss Puss was so funny because it was like, also it happened.
43:34You, you called me when I was starting to think about, talk to me.
43:37Yes.
43:37You kind of did it at the same time.
43:39It was perfect.
43:39It was meant to be.
43:40It was.
43:41Yeah.
43:41And I'm so sorry for being a bitch to you at the party.
43:44No, you weren't a bitch.
43:44You were just strict.
43:46And I respected that.
43:47I was so strict.
43:47I told my sister, she was like, you have to say sorry.
43:50I feel, she was like, I'm embarrassed for you, Rubin, because she knows how I get with
43:53those things.
43:54That is tricky.
43:55I thought you were just a bit shy, maybe.
43:56Yeah, I am a bit shy.
43:58Yeah.
43:58But I was also rude.
44:00Sorry.
44:00She wasn't.
44:02She's being nice.
44:06Aww.
44:07That was nice.
44:08Yeah.
44:10Thank you, Brianna.
44:13We were welcome home.
44:14You