00:00Washington is going after the international criminal court.
00:03Moscow wants its frozen billions back.
00:06And Europe is caught in the middle,
00:08facing pressure to defend international justice
00:10while deciding whether to cross a major financial and legal red line.
00:15Should Europe confront the United States over its attacks on the ICC?
00:20And should Russia's frozen assets finally be put to work for Ukraine?
00:24At stake is more than money or one international court.
00:27It's whether Europe has the political will to defend the rules,
00:31it says, underpin the international order.
00:35Yesterday I had a chance to speak with Dirk Gotink,
00:38a Dutch member of the European Parliament from the European People's Party,
00:41one of the most outspoken voices on both issues.
00:44And I started by asking him why it is so difficult
00:48to help Ukraine with unfrozen Russian assets.
00:51Take a listen.
00:53I wish it would be that easy.
00:55The good thing is, several months ago, I believe it was in December,
00:59they tried to mobilize these funds.
01:03At the time, it was too complicated to do that
01:06for financial stability reasons, for liability reasons.
01:12Euroclear, that's what we're talking about here,
01:14that's where most of the money is, is in Belgium.
01:17So I hope the work that has been done has been constructive,
01:21has given Belgium some comfort, that a next step can be taken.
01:26But this is not as easy as it looks,
01:29because in the end it is also property of someone.
01:32And the legal implications of that for the EU
01:34are not just related to Russians, but go far beyond that.
01:38And everyone would like to see Russia pay,
01:41and we will make Russia pay,
01:42but it has to be done in a way that not in the end,
01:44only Belgium is stuck with the bill,
01:47and the rest of Europe is not involved.
01:50And in that sense, if that means for us also simply stopping
01:54the full range of visas that we are now giving to Russians,
01:58tens of thousands of Russians are still traveling to Europe every month.
02:03We can go further in also signaling to the Russian elites
02:09that this is also their problem,
02:11and they cannot simply continue their lives on European islands drinking margaritas
02:17while their political leader is bombing everyday civilians in Ukraine.
02:24So 58 members of the European Parliament have urged the European Commission
02:27to shield the ICC from U.S. sanctions.
02:31Yes.
02:3258.
02:33Only 58.
02:34Why not more?
02:35Why not the entire Parliament?
02:36The Parliament has already called several times
02:38for the activation of the blocking statute.
02:40It is a legal tool the European Union has
02:44to tell European actors you are not allowed to implement those sanctions.
02:52It is, as we would say, a bit of a cure for a horse,
02:57as in it is a bit too tough,
02:59and it doesn't solve the problem of exposure from, for example, financial institutions.
03:03But I think we need it.
03:05It's an important political signal.
03:06So if the United States can sanction and threaten an international court
03:12because it doesn't like its decisions,
03:14what does it say about the future of international law?
03:17Well, that's been my concern all the way.
03:20I mean, not many people know the ICC, of course,
03:26even though it has done very valuable work.
03:28But what if all of a sudden we have an AI company
03:31that is too competitive for the Americans' liking?
03:35Could they cancel the boss of that AI company?
03:40What about the defense companies in Europe?
