- 2 days ago
- #considerthis
The Government has abandoned plans to establish an independent National Harmony Commission, even as racial and religious tensions remain a concern in Malaysia. So without this Commission, who has the power to act when racial and religious provocations occur? And who is held accountable when existing mechanisms fall short? Is strengthening current institutions enough? Or do we need a new legal framework? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Ramkarpal Singh, DAP MP for Bukit Gelugor & Former Deputy Law Minister, and Jerald Joseph, director of the civil society association, Pusat Komas.
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00:10Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This. This is the show
00:15where we want you to consider and then reconsider what you know of the news of the day. The
00:19government has abandoned plans to establish an independent National Harmony Commission
00:25and this is even as racial and religious tensions remain a concern in Malaysia. So without this
00:32independent commission, who has the power to act when racial and religious provocations occur
00:38and who is held accountable when existing mechanisms fall short? Is strengthening current
00:43institutions enough or do we need a new legal framework? Joining me on the show to help us
00:49think through some of these questions, I have with me YB Ram Kapal Singh who is a DAP MP for
00:54Bukit
00:54Lugo. He's also the former Deputy Law Minister as well as Gerald Joseph who is the Director
00:58of the Civil Society Association, Pusat Komas. Gerald, if I may begin with you, if you don't
01:03mind, we started with you. I know Pusat Komas has been one of the NGOs who have been working
01:07long on this and tirelessly towards supporting this proposal for the Independent National Harmony
01:14Commission. Can you talk to me about what this commission was? Maybe set that scene for us.
01:19What was the case that you were arguing for this commission? What was the problem that you
01:23were hoping to solve? The need for a National Harmony Commission is a gap that has been floating
01:33around in our country for a long time. When there is problem, we only have two possibilities.
01:39One is make a police report or one is hope it disappears. Going to police report means using
01:49the strong arms of the law, like sedition act. I think YB Ram here knows what these are.
01:55And all the powers of the law. And usually it doesn't resolve the root cause. And it is something
02:02you do, you sort of wait for trouble to happen and then you jump into action to try to take
02:08a strong stance. So we wanted a commission that had skill, knowledge, competency and powers embedded
02:17in need to call people to a table like this. To say, hey, come on, let's see what the problem
02:22is and to calm down the temperatures. But it's not just advisory but it's investigative. It is like
02:30a suhakam. It is like AAIC with commission powers but a dedicated one that can bring all of us
02:38to the table and then publish its report and even recommend sanctions up to a certain level before
02:45the next layer goes to court. As opposed to now, strong arm and nothing else in between. So that
02:52was our logic. And this actually grew from NUCC a long time ago. The National Unity Consultative
03:00Council, the Barisan National Initiative by 30 members of civil society.
03:05YB Ram, did you think that was a need for a National Harmony Commission?
03:09I think so, because at this point of time, as pointed out, I think we don't have anything
03:16in between. What we need is strong, effective enforcement powers, not necessarily by way of
03:25prosecutions. But I think there are other alternatives, particularly when in this day and age, in this
03:32digital era that we are in now, when a lot of racist content seem to come about online, very
03:43much abruptly on the spot. So you need something beyond, you know, the traditional, conventional
03:50charging someone in court six months later or one year later, you're not going to get any effective
03:56results. So such a commission, a body, whatever you want to call it, would be something I think
04:05very much needed in this, in the climate that we are in right now. Yes, I certainly think we do.
04:11So are you disappointed that the government has, the government that you're a part of, has said
04:16that they want to scrap this commission?
04:18Yeah, well, I mean, disappointment is one way of putting it, but I think I would say this,
04:26I would say that what we have in place right now, there are various agencies. I think the
04:32minister recently said that there isn't a need for such a commission because there are agencies
04:38in place now and so there's no need to, you know, bring in the commission and so on and so
04:45forth.
04:46Well, for me, I think those agencies were all well and good, although their purposes are very noble indeed,
04:54but I don't think they are, they have enough powers or enough, their terms of references are certainly not
05:03enough or sufficient to tackle the menace of growing racism.
05:07What kind of powers, you mentioned in your earlier answer, enforcement power doesn't necessarily mean to punish,
05:14but what kind of powers would you like to see?
05:17Well, I think preemptive steps.
05:20Preemptive?
05:21Because, let's put it this way, sometimes you know who the usual suspects are, you know, you know that there
05:30are
05:32troublemakers out there, let's put it very bluntly.
05:35Provocators.
05:36Provocators, yes.
05:37You know, so these are, these are realities on the ground.
05:41I don't think we should ignore the elephant in the room.
05:44So, there should be some element of preemptive powers given, you know, to, to sort of contain
05:54the position before it happens.
05:56So, I think that is something worth thinking about.
05:59The current agencies which the, the minister referred to, I believe agencies such as Rukun
06:06Tatanga, National Unity and Integration, Integration Department, Community, Mediators, they are, I'm not in any way
06:16criticizing these institutions or agencies.
06:19Certainly, they are very, these agencies are very well-meant, no doubt about that.
06:25They do good work.
06:26No doubt about that, no doubt.
06:27But, you must understand that these agencies are established to promote harmony.
06:35Not necessarily out there to prevent it.
06:40So, what we need is, is a body in light of, you know, growing racism in this day and age
06:48to, to, to be able to effectively prevent or tackle the menace of racism.
06:57Okay. All right.
06:58Gerald, let's, let's, can I ask you whether or not the, the reason for, I guess, if I may
07:06quote the minister or what's been reported has been, the government says, more practical
07:10and cost-effective way to do this is strengthening the institutions that YBRAM said, the National
07:15Unity, Integration Department, Rukun Tatanga, Community, Mediators.
07:18Is that a reasonable argument to strengthen these existing mechanisms?
07:23Are these mechanisms enough to address serious discrimination and excitement?
07:28I think I'm a bit surprised that at a budget discussion of a first time of a half a trillion,
07:35cost is being, being spoken about.
07:39And I think...
07:40What was the half a trillion?
07:41The national budget, 500.
07:43Oh, yes.
07:44Okay.
07:45The budget that was just...
07:45Oh, no, the budget was...
07:46Okay.
07:47That's true.
07:47When you say half a trillion, it's like...
07:49That's a huge figure.
07:49So, you know, the cost of the low budget that the government gives to Suhaqam, I know
07:56this because I was in the commission, was ranging around 12, 14, 16 million ringgit a year,
08:01which is really under budgeted.
08:04So, if you put a 10 million ringgit to start off a National Harmony Commission, it is a small
08:11drop in the ocean.
08:12The question is, what is the cost for not having it?
08:15I think it's our question to answer.
08:18And why is the government not willing to go down that route when the so-called cheaper
08:23cost of...
08:25You know, we...
08:26Rukun Tetangga for me is really a nice community gathering.
08:31I don't remember members of parliament or aduns like it because you go there and you chat
08:35and makan and we like the durian festivals there.
08:38But it doesn't go to the root cause.
08:39After the happy feeling of makan, you go home, your inner feeling of what racism is in Malaysia
08:46doesn't get resolved.
08:48So, the next time it flares up, comments get passed or anger resurrects.
08:52So, the so-called JPNIN, Rukun Tetangga and all this mechanism is not changing the landscape
08:59of Malaysia that Prime Minister has alluded to so many times in his speeches.
09:06You know, I want all citizens to stop extreme racism on July 10th.
09:10You know, I want to remind all parties not to use race-based party on July 29th.
09:14All these are this year.
09:15So, if the problem is so serious, then what's 10 to 20 million for a National Harmony Commission?
09:23And I'm very surprised to use money as a reason not to move forward.
09:27I'm using the non-effectiveness of Rukun Tetangga, JPNIN and all its functionaries because it is a design of the
09:37old.
09:38And the third point is that you need an independent commission when it comes to race and religion
09:42because in our report, last year, KOMAS report, we, a lot of the, when you check the Hansat,
09:4840% of our reporting captured MPs speaking in parliament.
09:55So, how can a department or Rukun Tetangga call out MPs?
10:02You know, government department don't have that clout.
10:04So, you need bodies like an EAIC, a SUHACAM, a MSEC to call out whoever using the legal framework.
10:12So, I think that's why an independent National Harmony Commission that I think the minister himself,
10:18the ministry himself has studied many various formations of this globally.
10:23And it has brought down the temperatures in other countries.
10:26Just in terms of timeline.
10:27So, there was this proposal, it was revived again in April this year, right?
10:31There was an earlier attempt that was shelved in 2020.
10:34Now, it's in October, now abandoned again.
10:38How do we think about this?
10:40What do you suspect the issue lies?
10:42Is it because the country has gone through a very difficult year with subsidies in the Middle East crisis
10:47that we are fiscally constrained?
10:51Or is it the design of the commission?
10:53Is it resistance?
10:55Is it political sensitivities?
10:56Is it timing?
10:57What do you think it is?
10:58I think the initial fervor to do the right thing then is tempered with a lot of negative pushback from
11:08those, the usual suspects.
11:10So, I think the usual suspects have a big control on the national narrative.
11:16They may not be the majority in terms of numbers but majority voice.
11:20They are loud.
11:21Yeah, they are very loud.
11:22And I think I saw the draft bill when I was a commissioner in 2019 because we were going around
11:28actually.
11:29So, there is a draft bill, old draft bill.
11:30You've been working on this since 2019.
11:32Yes, it's been a while.
11:33Yeah, so now it's resonating.
11:34I'm very happy that the cabinet, I think, asked for this to do the study.
11:39So, I'm happy that it came around.
11:40But I was also very shocked and surprised.
11:43I'm not sure whether you were surprised.
11:45But I was like, out of the blue, suddenly no.
11:47Why?
11:47What is the justification?
11:49What was the feedback from the various town halls that actually necessitated a response of a non-response?
11:57Because it's business as usual.
11:58Just go back to what we have.
12:00And that's not responding to the severe and seriousness of race-based issues in the country.
12:07Why had you heard?
12:09Well, I mean, I just would just like to just say a thing or two about the cost issue that
12:14you raised.
12:15I think being a multicultural, multiracial country, ours is unique in that sense.
12:24And we are very proud of it, no doubt about that.
12:27And, you know, I think for that reason and that reason alone, it is imperative.
12:34In fact, extremely important to invest, you know, to invest in mechanisms to contain racism because of the very fabric
12:44of our society.
12:47And so, if we were to use the argument of cost as an impediment to develop, you know, whatever that
12:57needs to be developed in this very important area,
12:59I think that is certainly not acceptable.
13:02Yes.
13:03All right.
13:03Well, so, your experience, YB Ram, when you were Deputy Law Minister, what stops the government from adopting some of
13:14these really good proposals?
13:15We've seen multiple times this happen.
13:17We've got a great proposal.
13:19We've got the right conditions for it.
13:20But then, the government stops short of implementing it.
13:24So, in your experience, what is it often?
13:25Well, I mean, if you look at the timeline, I have a very brief one here.
13:29Since 2015, we've had various attempts to introduce such laws.
13:36Perhaps it's the multiple changes of government.
13:40You've had experience with that.
13:42But that could be one reason.
13:46But now that we are in government, I think there also, of course, I mean, I think the time is
13:57ripe.
13:58Now, I think it's enough studies, consultation, sessions with stakeholders, so on and so forth have been done.
14:05And I think the current government, if it has the political will to carry out this very important reform, to
14:12introduce something like the commission that we are talking about now,
14:16I think it will go a very long way to give credence to the Madani government in that it is
14:28really serious about tackling this issue, a very important issue.
14:33It's been going on for 10 years since 2015, various proposals, you know, you have been involved since 2019, but
14:42nothing has taken off.
14:44Nothing has taken off.
14:45And I think it's a high time that something concrete is discussed with a, you know, with a fixed timeline
14:52so that we see something.
14:54Yeah.
14:55Something has to change, right?
14:56Did you argue that Malaysia needs legislation like Singapore, like the Maintenance of Racial Harmony Act?
15:03Yes, I proposed that.
15:04I muted the idea recently because, well, Singapore was a part of Malaysia.
15:11Ours is a very similar society.
15:14We have many similarities amongst us.
15:18And I had a look at their legislation, the one you just mentioned, Maintenance of Religious Harmony Act, which just
15:27came into effect in September, actually.
15:30So there were certain aspects of that legislation which perhaps we could learn from, such as the issuance of restraining
15:40orders.
15:40These are orders which are pre-emptive in nature, which perhaps we may want to look at, study, of course,
15:48tweak, you know, to adapt to our conditions.
15:54But this is one such proposal perhaps we can, you know, think about and study.
15:59There's other parts of the legislation which are also worth looking at as well.
16:04Well, Gerald, you're hearing from a former Deputy Law Minister, so he of course will argue for legislation.
16:10But is legislation the way to go? Do we need a law to address racial harm?
16:17So I think if we have the law, it's great.
16:20But I think former Deputy Minister knows how he struggled trying to get the best laws up.
16:25And I know the pain, you know, of some of it never making it to be passed.
16:29I think we keep that track open but the provisions you mentioned in the Singapore Law, I think that was
16:35the provisions we proposed also in the National Harmony Commission.
16:38So the commission can be empowered for restraining powers and through the commission, the most severe ones then gets elevated
16:47using the penal code back to the courts or the police.
16:51So we wanted it to be a gradation of management of any people.
16:57Some people just blurt out, some people push you and then you get all angry.
17:01But sometimes you just calm down and you talk, say sorry, sorry.
17:04So you need another level of somebody who will manage that before you go for an angry mob coming to
17:10make a police report.
17:12But it has to be an empowered commission and an independent commission.
17:15And then I think there is a false notion that this commission is only for minorities.
17:21That doesn't make sense, you know, because this commission is premised on the constitution, you know, the equality provisions of
17:29the constitution.
17:29So it's for all, for majority, minority.
17:31As long as you feel there is discrimination or you are harmed from a point of racial discrimination or religious
17:37discrimination,
17:38you come to that commission, they will handle matters and take it up.
17:41The question is, is Malaysia ever ready to give that voice and power to a body away from government?
17:50So now we have the courts, but by the time we get to the courts, as YB mentioned, right?
17:55Investigate, charge, it may take a year, six months, 12 months.
17:59But this can be the first point to already bring down temperatures, restraining orders,
18:04ask people to shut up for 30 days or 60 days while talk, sharing, mediation happens.
18:10But of course, in all fairness, sometimes all this may not work or so YB and then you need the
18:15most stronger law.
18:17If we have it good, but if not, the present penal code, I think, also have some provisions to take
18:22it up.
18:22Who would be, who would resist a National Harmony Commission?
18:27Who would be against a National Harmony Commission, Gerald?
18:30I think the voices, the usual voices, I think there is a false notion of a privileged majority in Malaysia
18:39that stemmed from a historical need of affirmative action policy for the majority.
18:45I think nobody challenges that the actual doctrine of the federal constitution,
18:50the national economic policy all had a time and place,
18:53but it's not to grow a society where a majority can have privilege to shut down the others.
18:59That's not the design.
19:00The design is for us all to feel equal under the Malaysian sun,
19:05as I'm quoting Sultan Nazrin from years ago, you know.
19:08And that feeling must be the centre point of how we move forward.
19:13So there are detractors.
19:15Yes, I think when your government, when you were in government,
19:17you tried to bring in some good laws.
19:20It didn't work to, even the Rome Statute, there was stride.
19:22And they always use the argument that this will take away the privilege of the majority,
19:28the sacrosanct, the so-called sacrosanct of 153, NEP.
19:33A lot of it is not tested because we don't have a chance to explain.
19:37Affirmative action policy is a human rights framework that was accepted.
19:41But today we are talking about those who are disenfranchised because someone is abusing the system
19:48and that should not be allowed to continue.
19:50YB Ram, when Gerald talks about lowering the temperature, having a cooling effect,
19:55I wanted to ask you the role of politicians.
19:58Whether politicians are helpful or hurtful in situations like this,
20:02when racial and religious tensions arise, I often see political leaders, they step in,
20:06they want to say something, they want to calm the situation with all good intentions maybe.
20:09But do you think that interventions help the situation or does it risk escalating tensions by amplifying?
20:16Well, I think politicians play a very important role.
20:19They're very, you know, when it comes to escalating possibly, as you just said,
20:25or sort of like calming racial tension in the country.
20:31What they say makes a very big difference, I think.
20:35And they must be very responsible in the things they say.
20:38Unfortunately, of late, it has to be said, there have been incidents of politicians saying things which don't make things
20:49easier.
20:49How do you judge that as a politician yourself?
20:51How do you judge when you should step in and say something or when you should hold back?
20:57Of course, I mean, it's very subjective.
20:59You know, it's very, you know, on a case-by-case basis.
21:02I think common sense really, you know, needs to be applied.
21:05Unfortunately, it's not very common amongst politicians, as you know.
21:10But that's the way it is.
21:12But I think, certainly, I mean, politicians have a huge role, especially with the young.
21:19You know, the things they say will certainly affect generations to come.
21:23And so, you know, I think they have a very important role to play.
21:28So, in the minutes that we have left, can I ask you both, what would be your call to, I
21:35guess, ordinary, the average Malaysian?
21:37You talked about government having a role to play.
21:39Maybe, hopefully, we'll see this National Harmony Commission in the future.
21:42Who knows?
21:43But for ordinary Malaysians today who are fed up, frustrated with the increasing rise in racial and religious provocations,
21:54can we do anything to change things?
21:56What would you say to the viewers at home, what individuals can do to change the narrative?
22:02Well, I think, I mean, on my part, I would say, you know, education is key.
22:07It's certainly something which I think all of us have a role to play in, to educate our neighbours, our
22:15young, our children, our students, you know, our constituents.
22:19We all have a relationship with others one way or the other, don't we?
22:23And we all have some sort of influence over them.
22:26I think, with that in mind, you know, if we can do good with the words we utter, you know,
22:34I think that can make a difference in the short term.
22:37And certainly in the long term, you know, we would like, I think that will bear fruit in the sense
22:42that we'll see future generations, you know, being more mindful of their words,
22:47being more mindful of how they treat other communities, other races.
22:52And so it's more of a, it's a long term thing.
22:56It's a long thing.
22:56I don't think it's something that, you know, I mean, the damage is, there is damage.
23:02Damage has been done.
23:03So I think we should look forward to repairing that.
23:07And I think we can do that as a community, as one, I think.
23:12Chen?
23:12I think we just need to reaffirm Aku Bangsa Malaysia.
23:16I think that framework is lost in between this identity, gameplay, you know, the tick box that when you buy
23:23a telephone, you know,
23:25you have to choose your tick box, you know, the Malay, Chinese, Indian and others.
23:29There's a whole large group of others very angry with the Malay, Chinese, Indian.
23:32But I think that is over and done with.
23:35I think the former minister, maybe 10, 15 years old, tried to take away that tick box.
23:39So reframing that this nation belongs to all and you must feel it.
23:44The child who goes to school and must feel that this country, I can do anything and everything as a
23:48child.
23:49Number two is I think how to educate people, older generation, younger generation,
23:54how not to fall trap to the insidious nature of online hate.
23:59And I think you served in an interview with The Fourth, right?
24:02Yes.
24:02Yes, and they reveal how there are companies that you can, I'm not suggesting that to you,
24:09but there are companies that you can pay a million and they will propagate.
24:13For divisive content.
24:15For divisive content.
24:16So I think if we educate our common persons to know that there's a gameplay and then they'll get angry
24:21somebody is manipulating me and then I think the third one is the politics that we have.
24:27I mean, you're a very decent and very principled MP.
24:33That's why we have you on the show.
24:34You'll be consistent.
24:36No, I'm not saying it just because it's on the show, but we need more of that and do not
24:40play to the gallery of race and religion.
24:41It's so easy to fall into the trap.
24:43And once you go on there, there's no turning back because everybody's expecting you to be the hero.
24:49And there's no need to be the hero.
24:50We just need Malaysian heroes, not ethnic-based heroes.
24:54Gentlemen, thank you so much for being on the show with me.
24:56I appreciate your time.
24:57That's all the time we have for you on this episode of Consider This.
25:00I'm Melissa Idris signing off for the evening.
25:02Thank you so much for watching and good night.
25:19We'll see you next time.