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In this special edition of Battle Cry, host Gaurav Sawant explores the operational prowess of the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile following Operation Sindoor and evaluates India's evolving defence strategy.
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00:00Hello and welcome to a special edition of Battle Cry, I'm Gaurav Savant.
00:04The name BrahMos, the supersonic cruise missile, it instills fear in the hearts and mind of the enemy.
00:12And not just because they've heard of the capabilities of the supersonic cruise missile,
00:17but also because during Operation Sindur, Pakistan has seen and suffered the damage
00:23caused by the pinpoint accuracy of the BrahMos missile,
00:27hitting multiple Pakistan Air Force bases, command and control centers,
00:32and of course the headquarters of terror at Bahawalpur.
00:36On this special broadcast, we will talk about BrahMos new generation.
00:41The effort to completely indigenize the missile,
00:45the lighter, deadlier and extended range of the BrahMos missile
00:50and the capabilities what it can do in the next conflict.
00:53Dr. Jaiti Joshi, CEO of BrahMos, he gives us never before known details of the lethality of the new BrahMos
01:00and of course the BrahMos ecosystem that's coming up in different parts of the country
01:04and interest that various countries across the world have shown in this missile.
01:09Not because of the name, but because BrahMos is now a proven system,
01:16a battle proven system during Operation Sindur.
01:19We'll also raise a bigger question.
01:21Given the changing nature of warfare across the world from Russia-Ukraine war to US-Iran conflict
01:28and the lessons drawn from the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict on the use of unmanned systems,
01:35they're changing the nature of conflict completely.
01:38Where are we?
01:39India is expanding our drone manufacturing,
01:42both unmanned aerial systems and underwater unmanned systems.
01:46But should India now actively consider the formation of a drone, missile and rocket force?
01:55We debate that.
01:56But first, Manjeet Singh Negi with this exclusive conversation with CEO BrahMos, Dr. Jaiti Joshi.
02:20So, Operation Sindur was ready with the BrahMos missile.
02:26This is our armed forces and our country's international forces and our country's international missiles.
02:34This missile's network-centric warfare capability and versatility of our international missiles,
02:42our three-person missiles are used to use.
02:43missile to use. This means that a universal missile that the sea or aircraft or ship platform
02:57and other ship platform and the sea targets to neutralize to use. This is a
03:05different way. This means that Brahmos is a net security provider.
03:14If you look at the operation of the sea, what has it been used in the sea? How many numbers
03:20and how much damage has happened in Pakistan?
03:23See, Brahmos missile's range, accuracy and strength is very important.
03:31Brahmos missile is slung on to the Sukhoi 30 aircraft and from there it is fired. In fact,
03:39aaj Brahmos missile ka technology is so robust and also being a JV company, the maximum indigenization
03:47content we have brought in into this missile and various technologies bhi hum log istimal
03:52karke Brahmos ko fully indigeniz banane ke kooshish mein lage huye hai.
03:56Is it time for India to have a drone, rocket and missile force to deter adversaries to the north
04:02and the enemy to the west? Before I bring in our guests, I also want you to listen in to
04:08Shatrujit Kapoor, the Director General of the Indo-Tiberian Border Police on the current situation
04:13along the line of actual control. We've known about the situation in Ladakh, hear about the
04:19situation in Arunachal Pradesh.
04:21Now, there was a potential in Arunachal Pradesh that some places have been faced off,
04:28the job is running. There are the teams of the Shariya Commandos that have done a very good job.
04:36This was also a new one. In China, we may have to do the possible ways to do that.
05:14So you've heard what the
05:16Director General of Indo-Tibetan Border Police
05:18had to say on the current friction along the LAC
05:20and the need to have more drones
05:22to deter more powerful adversaries
05:25like the Russia-Ukraine conflict
05:27and of course the Iran-US conflict.
05:31Let me bring into this conversation
05:32Lieutenant General P.R. Shankar,
05:34former Director General of Artillery,
05:37someone who's worked very closely
05:39on the BrahMos Supersonic Hoos Missile Project
05:42and was at IIT Madras
05:45working on New Age technology in warfare.
05:48Also with me are two senior journalists
05:51Sandeep Unnithan and Manjeet Singh Negi.
05:53Welcome gentlemen.
05:55Sandeep, the BrahMos played a stellar role
05:58during Operation Sindhur
05:59and now BrahMos NG will give the Air Force
06:03longer reach, more lethality
06:05and a lighter missile, Sandeep,
06:07will ensure that fighter jets
06:09can have more than just one missile
06:12like currently one BrahMos on a Sukhoi-30.
06:16Absolutely.
06:18Gaurav, the BrahMos missile came of age
06:20during Operation Sindhur
06:22and all of the investments
06:23that we have made in this technology
06:25over two decades
06:26finally came to fruition
06:28during Operation Sindhur.
06:29It is a missile that was simply unstoppable.
06:32All the targets that it acquired
06:34were hit, destroyed
06:35and it left Pakistan
06:37literally scrambling for international partners
06:41and conflict termination
06:43which is why they made that phone call
06:45on the 10th of May.
06:46This is a missile system
06:48that they had no answer for.
06:49It shattered through all of their Chinese-supplied
06:53ground-based air defenses
06:55and the new iterations of the missile, Gaurav,
06:58they have been in the works for some time
07:00but if they come in the next two or three years
07:01as Dr. Jayathir Joshi told us in India today,
07:06the fact that you have the BrahMos NG
07:09which is lighter,
07:10which means that a Sukhoi-30
07:11can carry three missiles instead of one
07:14and you're looking at a BrahMos-2
07:17which can go to a range of over 1,500 kilometers.
07:19That is more than three times
07:21the striking distance
07:24of the current generation of BrahMos missiles.
07:27So, Manjit Negi's exclusive Gaurav
07:30is something that could make
07:32the Pakistanis across the border
07:34very worried indeed.
07:36Oh, absolutely.
07:37In fact, not just Pakistanis,
07:39should China also be concerned
07:40because as of now,
07:42there is nothing that anyone in the world has
07:44that can stop a supersonic cruise missile
07:46coming virtually three times the speed of sound
07:48but Manjit,
07:49what are you picking up
07:51on how soon will the new BrahMos
07:55and the total indigenization,
07:56what is the timeline
07:58for the total indigenization
08:00of the BrahMos missile?
08:04Gaurav, if you see that
08:06the BrahMos missile requirement
08:09is for forces and exports
08:11for that,
08:12if you look for the BrahMos
08:13as well as the plan,
08:15the Kaurav,
08:16the Nathpour,
08:17the Pilani
08:17and the Lakhanow
08:18three assembly lines
08:19have been put in there.
08:21So, this shows
08:21the requirements of the new
08:22requirement
08:23and of course,
08:24which is the one
08:25in the interview,
08:26Jaitir Joshi said,
08:27that's how it is,
08:29that the aim of the
08:34which is the indigeneration, which is the part of making India and a whole ecosystem
08:40of 300 countries, which is the part of this country in the industry in the past 7 years.
08:47And the goal is to make it more than making India and the cost of the cost.
08:53And the third assembly line, which is where the production of Brahmo's has started,
08:58is that how many requirements are.
09:01And the question was, first of all, Brahmo's was integrated into a ship.
09:05After that, it was a land version, and then there was no 30 MKI,
09:09which was used during the construction of Brahmo's.
09:13But now, the other thing is that our aircraft,
09:18whether Rafale's talk, or LCA, Aegis Mark 1A,
09:21the lighter version of Brahmo's NG,
09:25how quickly fits the conflict in Brahmo's?
09:30This is a very big thing that you are telling me.
09:32And I am right with Risa, General Shankar.
09:35India is modernizing as quickly, perhaps as possible, is what we are told.
09:40But given the current situation along the LAC, is there an apprehension that it could escalate
09:47and, God forbid, we could have another galwan type situation?
09:50What is your reading of what DGITBP said?
09:54Look, at the outset, thanks a lot for calling me on the show.
09:58I'd like to highlight that what the DGITBP has said.
10:04It's said about a situation which has been ongoing for almost four to five months now.
10:09I don't think it's so serious, because if the situation was so serious,
10:14it should have come through the army sources.
10:16The DGITBP has mentioned it, right?
10:20Well, he's highlighted it, that there's a face-off ongoing,
10:23and such face-offs keep ongoing throughout the entire border at some place or the other.
10:30Maybe at that particular place which he mentioned, it's a little more.
10:34And I don't think we should be worried about it.
10:36The fact that we are there is itself okay.
10:40But will it escalate tomorrow into something like galwan?
10:42Who knows?
10:43We don't know how the geopolitical situation will deteriorate, and the India-China situation will
10:49deteriorate. But personally, if you ask me, that's it. I don't think anything will happen.
10:54I don't think China is in a state to get into any kind of a fracas along the border at
11:00this point
11:01of time, especially from now to the next year. Why? I'll tell you why. Because from next week onwards
11:07is their important fifth plenum which is starting. And that is to set a whole lot of their leadership
11:14equations into place. And for the next year is their 21st party congress. And in this period,
11:23they won't like to pick up a fight with India. Let me be very clear about it. I don't think
11:28so,
11:28unless they have a different design. So to that extent, I'm not too worried about what's happening
11:34on the LSE. I'm sure if the ITBP can handle it, the army can definitely handle it.
11:39Let me bring in Manjit Manjit. Manjit, Raksha Mantra Alay, के सूत्र, अरुनाचल
11:43प्रदेश की स्थिती के बारे में क्या बता रहे हैं? और खास्तोर पर ऐसी
11:46पर इस स्थिती में, जब DG ITBP ने कहा कि स्थिती तनाफपूर्ण है, या स्थिती वाब बनी
11:53हुई है, फ्रिक्षिन की, और कन्वेंशनल सेंस की अगर बात करें, तो चाइना की
11:57शक्ती हम मारे पास जादा है, हमको और ड्रोन्स की आवशक्ता वैसे भी है, इरान युद को देखते हुए
12:03और रूस युक्रेन युद को देखते हुए, Manjit.
12:07गरब जब चीन के राश्ट्रपती शीर जिंग की इंडिया के दौरे पर तो उस दौरान कुछ लोकल चैनल पर कुछ
12:14तरह से सोचल मीडिया में, वो वीडियो भी कुछ वीडियो आये थे, जिसको लेकर सेना ने उस दौरान भी सितंबर
12:19-क्तूबर में इस बात को साफ किया �
12:22जो बाउंडरी को लेकर दोनों देशों के बीच में परसप्शन का मामला है, जिसको लेकर इस तरह की घटनाए होती
12:27हैं, वो घटनाए समय समय होती रहती हैं, और उनको लेकर जो ग्राउंड फोर्स हैं, जो ब्रिगेड लेबर की बात
12:35करें या उसके उपर कॉर कमंडर ले�
12:49तो वहाँ पर प्रसेप्शन की वज़र से बाउंडरी में जो लेकर इस तरह की घटनाए हुई हैं, और यह जानकारी
12:57सितमर अक्टूबर से जब घटनाए होई भी तब से इस पर सेना को इसकी जानकारी है, रक्षामंत्राले को जानकारी है,
13:04खासतोर से बात करें, खुद ज
13:18जनल राजमानी है, उनकी बात करें, वो भी इस तरह कमांड के दोरे पर गए थे, तो मझे लगता है
13:24कि सेना को और अक्षामंत्राले को इस बात की जानकारी है, और लगातार जो हालाथ है उस पर नजर भी
13:29रखी हुई है.
13:29Sandeep, given the situation is likely to remain cold peace between India and China and to dead or Pakistan, again
13:39post-op Sindhuur, the relationship has been tense, does India need a rocket force, rocket missile and drone force to
13:49deal with the emerging situation, looking at what's happening across the world, Russia, Ukraine, Israel, Iran, US and our neighborhood?
13:59Absolutely, Gaurav. You know, you've entered an era of non-contact kinetic warfare. And we've seen that during Operation Sindhur.
14:07We saw that during the 40-day conflict between Iran and the United States.
14:12Ukraine and Russia have been attacking each other over the last couple of months at extended ranges. 3,000 kilometers
14:18is the outer range of the Ukrainian drones that they're targeting the Russian Federation with.
14:24Russia is also striking back, Gaurav. If we are not cognizant of these technological changes in the world, then I'm
14:31afraid we are trying to fight the last war all over again.
14:35And keeping that in mind, a drone, rocket and artillery force is absolutely critical for India.
14:42Given the fact that we have large voids in our force structures, we have not got our full fighter squadrons
14:49yet, the sanctioned strength of over 40 squadrons.
14:52There are some gaps in our land forces capabilities as well. And if you ask General Shankar, Gaurav, he will
14:59tell you that we already have a rocket force in place,
15:03given the artillery divisions that the Indian Army has raised over the last couple of years. So that expertise already
15:08exists. It's only a matter of scaling it up.
15:11You can call it whatever you like, but as long as you have the capability, it is a force that
15:16you can rule out very quickly.
15:17You know, so from Grad 21 to the Pinaka systems to longer range missiles and rockets, General Shankar, your reading
15:27of the requirement of more firepower and fire and forget kind of firepower,
15:33longer range, longer range, more lethality, as Sandeep was pointing out, future warfare, likely to be more non-contact warfare.
15:41So precision missile, longer range, swarm drone to strike across enemy VAVPs, both across northern and western borders. Is that
15:49the requirement, sir?
15:50Yes, there is a clear requirement. And in fact, I have discussed this with Sandeep separately.
15:56That's the first point. The second point is, if you see the Russia-Ukraine war, attacks and, you know, non
16:03-contact attacks have been carried out over 1,000, 1,500 kilometers very effectively.
16:09And that is the way forward. And the fact that you need a force which can handle drones, rockets, artillery
16:16and missiles.
16:17And even artillery range is getting extended, the conventional artillery. Today, everyone talks of a DRAM force, D-R-A
16:25-M, drones, rocket, artillery and missile force.
16:27You need it. Do we have it? We have it. But just having these rockets and missiles, it's not the
16:35issue. You need a structure for it.
16:37You need a structure for command and control. You need a structure for deployment. You need a structure for sustainment
16:44and logistics.
16:45You also need a structure for ISR because you need to have a command and control system. You need to
16:51complete the kill chain.
16:52You know, you need a satellite communication. You need ground and satellite observation, target fixation. All this you need.
17:01And interestingly, we don't need to invent the whole wheel. We have something called the artillery division, which has all
17:08this.
17:09And in fact, for me, it's quite surprising that we are still debating of the requirement of a force when
17:15we already have one.
17:17When you have one, OK, that might not exactly fit the bill, but 90 to 95 percent of the thing
17:24which we have already.
17:25And I can vouch it because I've commanded an artillery div. And I commanded an artillery div way back in
17:312010 to 2012, consisting of Pinaka's grad, extended grad and Brahmos and, you know, Smirch at that time with a
17:42troop of Herons.
17:43So, I know what I'm talking.
17:45So, do we have that entire kill chain, let's say, across our western border and across our northern borders along
17:53India, Tibet, LAC?
17:55We have the capability to put it on ground there. We have the structure. We already have three artillery divisions.
18:01You need to repurpose it for other places and expand the number of artillery divisions we are there without much
18:07of a sweat.
18:07Let me tell you this. OK, it's only that India has to get over its own internal mental blocks to
18:15come to that level.
18:16That's the first thing. The second thing is the importance is just not having range and all this.
18:22The fact which Andeep, I think, also had brought out, that a number of squadrons are not going to increase.
18:28They're going to decrease. Your effectiveness is going to decrease.
18:31Now, what is the alternative to, you know, air power? The alternative to air power is missile power.
18:38The alternative to air power is rocket and drone and artillery power. There's no other choice we have.
18:45No, but that's a very important point you're making, but Manjeet, Army or Air Force?
18:51Can I finish this?
18:52Yes, kindly. Yes, General Shankar.
18:55You have to understand that, look, why am I saying this? Just look at the Iran war.
19:00Iran doesn't have any air force worth mentioning, but with the help of rockets and drones only,
19:07they have brought a superpower to standstill.
19:11And same thing the Houthis are doing. Houthis also don't have any air force.
19:15Saudis have all the air forces, all the modern aircraft, but yet they have not been able to overpower Houthis.
19:22I think we should take lessons from both these and ensure that our rocket force, you know, really comes to
19:32shape and build on what you have rather than reinvent the whole wheel.
19:35Very interesting point you make, sir.
19:38Very interesting point you make, sir.
19:40Manjeet, lakin kya Raksha Mantrali meh bhi yehhi sowch hai ki jab tak fifth generation fighter jet nahi aata aur
19:46usko aane mein kaffi samaya bhi lag bhi sakta hai.
19:49Humko aur rocket, lembhi duri tuk marr karne wali missilee, drone, inki awashaktah hooggi,
19:56taakki dushman humari taraf ághe bharna ka dussah has na karay chahe hum uttar ki baat karay ya paakistan ki
20:03baat karay.
20:07Gharav is bak dhilli meh army commander conference jal rahi hai jis meh raksha Mantri Rajnath Singh joh war doctrine
20:14hai,
20:14is bak joh purdeish ur dhniyah mein joh yudhi ke halat hai, usko lhe kar sena ki kis taray ki
20:18tiyari hai hai,
20:19usko lhe kar eek land warfare doctrine wo jari kar raha hai.
20:22Or jis ko lhe kar sena ki kis taray ki tiyari hooggi,
20:26chahi bhat laddark se lhe ka arunachal tuk chin ke sath joh halat hai,
20:29or jis taray ke phirsov ki ghačtaya sámeni áti hai,
20:32yaa phir galwan jiayashe bade ghačtakram ko dhekhen,
20:35yaa phir sindur, operation sindur jis ko lakata hai,
20:38jis ko lhe kar sarkar ki niti rahi hai,
20:40ki bhi operation sindur abhi jari hai.
20:42So ainsa me nisit torpar sarkar ki taraf se puri freedom hai,
20:45tínohon senao ko ki baat ki jahe,
20:48yaa phirsov ki taraf se haem ko dhekhen chijjou ko,
20:51to chahi rocket force ki haem baat karayin,
20:54air asset ki baat karayin,
20:56aur bharata waaj sena ki bhi košis hai ki bhout jald,
21:00joh chahi fifth generation aircraft dèjsh ke inder banane ki baat ho,
21:04yaa phir bahar se lene ki baat,
21:05usko lhe kar bhi tayyari lagataar hai,
21:08aur sabse bharata bharata ki,
21:10sarkar ki taraf se,
21:11kendra sarkar ki taraf se,
21:13puri freedom yaa phir,
21:14agar haem budget,
21:15rakhsa budget ko bhi dhekhen,
21:16toh usmein kisi taraf ki koi kami ya kota hi nahi rakhhi gahi hai.
21:20Ye mahatapoor baat hai and Sandeep,
21:22the paucity of a fifth generation fighter jet,
21:26you know, coming into our system and the time lag,
21:28this drone force,
21:30it can play a very critical role.
21:33When we talk about a missile force and a drone force,
21:36how geared up is the Indian domestic drone manufacturing ecosystem,
21:41you know, from propulsion to firepower to guidance system,
21:44to have non-Chinese components and to be able to do what Ukraine and Iran have been able to do?
21:52Well, Gaurab, you know,
21:53the Indian military has ordered drones on a record level.
21:58I mean, you're talking of potential orders worth 10 to 15 billion dollars over the next couple of years.
22:04Now, these are a lot of drones there for reconnaissance,
22:09they're for, you know, loitering munitions, all of that.
22:11This is based on the lessons from Operation Sindur.
22:15But now what is happening is that every force, Gaurab, is buying drones, you know, in their own silos.
22:22There is no standardization of protocols.
22:24There is no, you know, the production line that will produce them at scale of the kind that we are
22:33seeing in the United States, in Iran, all over the world.
22:36And in the Russian Federation, that kind of standardization isn't happening.
22:39We're not producing them at scale.
22:41What we're doing is we're, you know, acquiring them in small penny packets.
22:46And, you know, we're looking at situations that happened a couple of years back when the same three services went
22:52to the same Israeli company and they were buying the same drones, often with different frequencies.
22:57So there are multiple issues there of interoperability, of creating that kill chain that General Shankar was mentioning.
23:04There are a lot of loopholes even now.
23:06What we're looking at is a mass buying of drones with not enough thought given to creating that entire kill
23:12chain,
23:13creating that sensory loop, standardizing a lot of protocols, ensuring that there is some kind of an air traffic control
23:20when drones go up, when there's fighting.
23:23You know, we saw during Operation Sindhu where one core commander told me that at one point he had three,
23:28four thousand, you know, drones up in the air and they had no idea about whose drone was flying where.
23:34So all of these things have to be done, Gaurav.
23:36The easiest thing to do is to place the orders.
23:39The tougher part is to actually put in that whole process, that command and control system.
23:44You know, and especially at a time, Sandeep, and General Shankar, I want to bring you in, at a time
23:48when the technology is still evolving,
23:51would standardization be possible when technology continues to evolve or do we now need to go in with a Mark
23:581, Mark 2 kind of a system?
24:00You know, like the Shahid drones and Russians were able to put the jet engine and America kind of reverse
24:07engineered that.
24:08Is that the kind of technology that we need to just keep modernizing, keep so that we are ahead of
24:13the curve?
24:14Where do you think we stand right now?
24:16Look, let me tell you, having worked in this field after retirement and I've spent 10 years in IIT doing
24:21only this propulsion, we are completely indigenous.
24:25We have everything we need even for most of the things we have everything.
24:29You need to put all these in a mission mode and ensure that you get everything.
24:34The problem today is we are trying to procure, we are not trying to invent, we are not trying to
24:39design our own stuff.
24:41So you have to have faith in your own system. Unfortunately, our DRDL or the DRDO has failed us in
24:49all our efforts for the past 15, 20 years.
24:52So it's time now for us to get away from the beaten track and put our faith in startups, put
24:59our faith in our IITs who have these capabilities and do things on a mission mode.
25:04Please understand, the IGMDP, which was put on a mission mode, so 30, 40 years back in the 80s, has
25:11borne fruit for us today in the form of the plethora of missiles which you have.
25:15There is no technology which we don't have. It is what we lack is the capability of putting it into
25:21a mission mode.
25:22And for this, you know, we just have all the three services have to sit together with the defense ministry
25:28and work it out.
25:30So I think that's the way forward. One more point I want to make, which is very important.
25:35It's okay to say that we want to fire all these missiles across our borders and all that.
25:39But there's a new form of warfare which has come out. I call it the choke point warfare, sea denial
25:44and all that.
25:45See what's happened in Strait of Hormuz. See what's happened in the Red Sea. That's being controlled not by fighters
25:51and all.
25:51It's being controlled by drones, rockets, artillery and missiles.
25:55Even in our context, where you're going to put everything in Galatia Bay and all that,
26:00or this kind of missiles, long-range missiles like Brahmos and all that,
26:05you can control the entire Malakka Strait and all the sloths and the thing.
26:10That's a very important point you make, sir. Very, very important point.
26:14And that is why, you know, that Galatia Bay, India has to put more fighter jets, more missiles, more Navy,
26:22more weapons and systems there.
26:2430 seconds, General Shankar, to complete your point, sir. 30 seconds.
26:27See, the point is that, look, you are constrained by the fact that you don't have enough aircraft.
26:32And ships don't come overnight.
26:34But what can come overnight or at very fast pace is ground-based rockets and missiles and artillery and drones.
26:44And that is something which you can go ahead of the curve.
26:47And that puts you ahead of the curve.
26:50It has, as you very rightly pointed out, with the integrated missile technology program, you know, the Agni Prithvi Akash
26:57Nag Trishul and the other missiles that we now have.
27:00That's a very, very significant point you're making.
27:02And perhaps the government will focus more on drones, rockets, missiles and artillery in mission mode, as General Shankar, Sandeep
27:11and Manjeet pointed out.
27:12To my guests, many thanks for joining me.
27:14That is all I have for you on this special edition of Battle Cry.
27:17Many thanks for watching.
27:19News and updates continue on India Today.
27:21Stay with us.