- 3 hours ago
The aircraft can fly. But can they win passengers’ trust and make commercial sense? Cynthia Ng speaks to Ng Yon Hui, the Malaysian founder of China-based TCab Tech, about bringing electric vertical take-off and landing aircraft (eVTOLs) to market and the hurdles still ahead.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:09Hello, you are watching Awani Review. My name is Cynthia Ng.
00:13For years, flying taxis have been touted as the future of urban mobility.
00:17Now, these aircrafts are no longer just concepts.
00:20Electric aircraft that can take off and land vertically like helicopters,
00:25or also known as EV tolls, are already being tested.
00:29And in some places, have been cleared for limited commercial operations.
00:34But getting this aircraft off the ground is one thing.
00:37Making them safe, affordable, and commercially viable is quite another.
00:43Joining me today to discuss a bit more about this is Ng Yon Wui.
00:47He is the founder and CEO of T-Cab Tech, a Chinese electric aircraft or flying taxi developer.
00:55Thank you so much, Yon, for coming to our studio today.
00:58Great to have you here.
01:00Now, Yon, I want to start with your background.
01:02You have been in the aerospace industry for almost two decades.
01:05You spent time with Airbus China, you spent time with Geely,
01:09and then you decided to leave and build your own electric aircraft company.
01:13I'm curious, what did you see in this industry, EV toll,
01:17that made you think that this is where aviation is heading and I want to be part of it?
01:22If you look into the aviation industry, you will always see that we prioritize safety.
01:30So there are quite limited innovations into the field.
01:34When I started to see that electrification works for EV car,
01:38I see that this is a good opportunity for me because at the very first era
01:43when we have the helicopters or aircraft is because we have the engine.
01:48Then afterwards, we can move to another continent or so
01:53because we have turbine engine and now we have electric motor.
01:57And because of the electric motor, we'll be able to keep our aircraft cheaper
02:01and affordable for the general public.
02:03So I see this as an advantage that we can create a new electric aircraft for our society.
02:10And this motivates me to get into this particular field of EV toll.
02:14When was that?
02:15That was, you know, I wouldn't say a specific timing,
02:18but I would say that throughout my career,
02:21I've been watching how the development of electric aircraft.
02:24At the very beginning, back into 2013 or 2014,
02:28you can see that Airbus has already started on the E-FAN program,
02:31which is a fixed-wing, small little electric aircraft.
02:35Then by about 2015 and 2016, you see things like City Airbus project
02:41and also we have different EV tolls project ongoing as well.
02:46Then by about 2018, you can start to see that EV car has already quite matured into the business.
02:53So I see that the supply chain of EV is ready.
02:56And also in terms of regulations, we have some euro regulations kicked in at that time.
03:04So it's sort of like sensing me that it's the right time to move ahead with this particular venture.
03:10Okay.
03:10So your aircraft is the E-20, which is currently being in China,
03:16at least is going through type certification with the Civil Aviation Administration of China,
03:20CAAC, which means it has not yet been cleared for commercial operation.
03:25Talk to us where you are right now and how far are you from getting the aircraft off the ground?
03:30Right.
03:31We've been in the R&D for the last six years or so.
03:35Then this is quite typical for aircraft R&D and certification.
03:39So at the moment, we are still the top tier companies working on EV tolls in China.
03:45Where we are is that we have gone through what we call the certification basis
03:49and also the means of compliance and the certification plan.
03:53Then at the moment, we are at the final stage of doing different kind of testings.
03:59So this testing could be on the ground and also on the air as well.
04:03So we are preparing ourselves for different kind of testing at the moment.
04:07Then we are planning to complete our certification by as early as end of next year or early 2028.
04:15This is our planning in China.
04:17Then obviously we would like our machine to come to Malaysia as well.
04:22And this is the reason why we have established our branch here in Malaysia
04:26and also talked to Cam about getting our certification in Malaysia.
04:30Well, and that's why we have you here today at our studio.
04:32So thank you for that.
04:34Okay, so getting an aircraft to fly is one thing.
04:36Getting it certified to carry passengers.
04:38We talk about, you know, safety, reliability.
04:40That's a completely different challenge, right?
04:43I think that's where a lot of these companies are at the moment.
04:45Your company included.
04:47What is proving to be the hardest part for you to get this aircraft off the ground?
04:52I think if you look into the ecosystem of eVTOL, it's quite hard on all different aspects.
05:00First of all, back in five years ago, you don't even see safety standards or certification standards.
05:07And definitely at that time, no one knows about how to design an eVTOL that is going to be safe.
05:13In the meantime, there are also no supply chains or infrastructure suitable for it.
05:19And there are different concepts at that point in time because people were thinking about whether it could be a
05:26drone, a flying car or eVTOL, right?
05:29So you kept hearing different kinds of stories at that time.
05:33The technology has not converged into an era whereby everyone is doing the same thing.
05:39And that obviously gives us opportunity as well.
05:43And that's why we'll be able to create our first e20, which is the first tilt rotor configuration in China.
05:51And we are also gaining more capitals and trust from different stakeholders as well due to that.
05:59And I understand that, of course, you started this company in China and China being the leader in the eV
06:04industry has proven itself over the last two decades or so.
06:07So how much of that factored into the growth of eVTOL in the industry that you're in?
06:12I think it's enormous because I always say that we are able to do it in China is because we
06:21have a good ecosystem.
06:23In particular, if you look into our supply chain in terms of eV, we need the same kind of motor,
06:31batteries and eVs from the eV car industry.
06:35So if we like to do R&D in the States or in China, I think we can quite easily
06:42acquire what we need in China.
06:44And other than that, China also has started a lot of supply chains on aviation industry.
06:50For example, we are able to source local avionics, flight control systems and the drone algorithms help us as well.
06:58Because we are electric aircraft that require certain intelligence builds into the system.
07:04So these are the advantage of doing it in China.
07:08Okay. Now, I also want to understand where do you see the real value of this technology?
07:14Because people have heard about flying taxis and I think they immediately think about avoiding traffic on the road.
07:21But if you look at the aircraft, these are aircraft that can carry maybe a few passengers, right?
07:26Maybe not more than four or five.
07:29You still need somewhere to take off and land.
07:32So is urban congestion the problem that you're really trying to solve?
07:36And if not, where do you think eVTOL can make the biggest difference in terms of urban mobility that the
07:42existing transport simply can't allow to do so?
07:47It's just like what I always say to many people.
07:50I think people would like to understand us as flying cars and flying taxis or something.
07:58At certain times, they kept on referring us that we'll be able to resolve the concessions and so on.
08:04But like what you have rightly mentioned, we are just a small little aircraft.
08:09Even with a fleet of six aircraft in a day for one particular route, you are unable to carry too
08:15many people, right?
08:16You are talking about hundreds of people, but the congestion is like thousands and thousands of people.
08:21So we are not really targeting to resolve the congestion problem.
08:26However, we do target on providing a supplemental transportation for the existing ground transportations.
08:33What it means is that we are seeing ourselves as a very good vehicle around 30 to 150 kilometers, this
08:40kind of range.
08:41Then it is the best for intercity travels.
08:44For example, you would like to travel from KYA to Malacca or from KYA to Gendin Highlands, these sort of
08:52places.
08:52So these are the best use of it, especially when you have certain geography difficulties with the ground transportations.
08:59Yeah, so our values come on a way that originally for helicopter to travel by general public is impossible because
09:09it's too expensive.
09:11Then because of electrification, now we are able to cut the price down to about a fifth or even a
09:17tenth of the original helicopter cost.
09:20So we are seeing ourselves as a transformation into this transport that we have on the ground and we can
09:29provide a good service to the general public that they will be able to enjoy flying as well.
09:35So in Malaysia, for example, the price can go as low as two to three ringgit per passenger kilometers.
09:42So this is going to be much more affordable.
09:45So if you are some kind of passenger that you are in a hurry to go to somewhere, then definitely
09:50it's a good transport for you.
09:53So how does the first phase do you think would look like?
09:55Let's talk about China because it's where you launch first, if anything.
10:00Does it mean that it's going to be more of a, at least initially, a premium service?
10:05You mentioned intercity travel.
10:07How do you envision that to look like?
10:08I think there are two main use case applications.
10:13The first one is more on the sightseeing, on some of the tourist spots that you need some kind of
10:19transportation.
10:20So conventionally, people travel to all these tourist spots by ground transportation, by bus or something.
10:28So now we were able to go from a bullet train station to the tourist spot area.
10:33For example, in China, you have many tourist areas like in Hainan or in all these kind of mountainary areas.
10:42So we are able to transport people from the nearest bullet train station or airport to the tourist spot area.
10:51Then for that, people will pay some premium, of course, because in China, we are talking about renminbi three to
10:57four yuan.
10:58But this is still expensive compared to the ground transportation.
11:02However, people will be able to see some different kind of landscape.
11:07And of course, most likely they will be able to pay for this price premium that we created for them.
11:14Then apart from sightseeing, we are also seeing that for the intercity routes, that is possible to happen.
11:22For example, in Hong Kong, Guangdong and Shenzhen area or in the Shanghai area where you have so many metropolitans
11:33around it,
11:34then people could use it as a supplementary transportation after they have got off from the airport or from the
11:43bullet train station.
11:43So we are not a transportation that will replace the existing one, but we would insist that we are providing
11:53a supplemental service
11:55that if you have time need that you would like to travel to your destination much faster, then this will
12:02be a good service for you.
12:03I totally understand the value in the cost and the time saving.
12:06But regulatory approval aside, that's also not a hurdle that is public confidence.
12:12It's about actually getting people comfortable with the idea of flying one of these things.
12:17So how do you get over that?
12:20How do you help people understand that this aircraft is safe and it's ready?
12:25And you yourself have no confidence putting your family members on it, for instance.
12:30I think to gang trust, there are many aspects on it.
12:35So the traditional way that we are doing is definitely we would like to prove that we are using the
12:42same design standards
12:43as per helicopters or fixed wing aircraft design.
12:47So many people will ask us about environmental problems.
12:51For example, what happens if you have a burst strike or you have a lightning strike or anything like that.
12:57But actually, our aircraft is designed in accordance to the same safety standards as helicopters.
13:04So we'll be able to take the same kind of environmental situation as per helicopters.
13:10On the other side, as a general public, they don't quite understand about all these safety requirements.
13:16The best is to show them and to let them experience it.
13:20And that's the reason why we brought this aircraft all the way from China, put it in IOICT mall
13:25and let people see how it looks like and also explain to them the feature that we have in terms
13:31of safety
13:31and how we'll be able to build redundancy because of electrification, so on and so forth.
13:37And the most important thing is I took the aircraft.
13:41So I was in one of our flight testing and took the aircraft together with our chief pilot.
13:48And that is also one way to also show that we are confident to put ourselves into the machine, right?
13:55E-Hung has received limited certification for commercial operations, right?
14:00That's right.
14:00So I know you're working towards that direction, but at what point do you see that the industry could really,
14:07really take off?
14:08Now that you have no proof of concept, you have a company that is leading the way in the same
14:14industry as yours.
14:17In China, I think we are benefiting from the fact that the government has already started what we call the
14:24low altitude economy policy.
14:26So as you may have known, China is quite policy driven.
14:35So once you have a policy generated by the federal, then people will swarm in to invest, to create the
14:42ecosystem and so on and so forth.
14:44Then at the moment we are seeing that we'll be able to start with a few routes in China.
14:50For example, if you go to different provinces, now different provinces are planning for different routes that they would like
14:58to have.
14:59And they also create state-owned companies to handle the local operations because we are a little bit like bus.
15:07If you look into the bus industry, the local services is always provided by the local government
15:13because you would like to support the people moving around to create businesses and so on and so forth.
15:18So this is what is happening in China.
15:21Then we are hoping to see the same in Malaysia as well.
15:25And that's why we like to collaborate with SEDAC and to look into how we'll be able to have one
15:30or two routes here in Malaysia as well.
15:32All right, let's talk about that because you've just signed an MOU with SEDAC,
15:36the Selangor Information Technology and Digital Economy Corporation,
15:40to explore bringing e-vito operations to Malaysia.
15:44What exactly are you looking to do here?
15:46Are you looking at eventually operating flying taxis out of Malaysia?
15:51Or do you see it more on the opportunities for the manufacturing side?
15:55I think we have been trying to explore outside of China because we do not want our market to be
16:05only on the Chinese market.
16:06So we are exploring what we call this one road, one belt countries along the way.
16:13So previously we have been already stepping into the UAE.
16:17So if you are aware that we do have some exposure in the UAE,
16:24then starting last year and this year, we started to look into the Southeast Asia.
16:30So after looking into different countries, I think Malaysia is a very good place for us to establish our hub
16:36here in Southeast Asia.
16:37So what do we do with SEDAC?
16:40We are not only targeting for operating the aircraft here in Malaysia,
16:45but we would like to look into the possibility of creating the ecosystem.
16:49So the government obviously is looking into how we can extend our aviation industry,
16:56not only on MRO because at the moment, if you look into the aviation industry that we have in Malaysia,
17:04you will notice that our large activities is focusing on MRO
17:09and we are lack of aircraft design or OEM activities here in Malaysia.
17:16So we like to look into the possibility of first, of course, showing to the public,
17:23second, doing demo flight, third, flying commercial routes.
17:26Then we would like to also look into whether we could be using Malaysia as a hub
17:32for potentially in the future final assembly or doing some trainings
17:36or also some parts that we would like to supply in this particular region.
17:43So this is what we are planning and working with.
17:46And you've also been appointed as advisor of SEDAC.
17:48So with that, it's because Malaysia has just recently started the low-altitude economy
17:54and they would look into people who will be able to support them
17:59on giving different kind of planning and advices.
18:03Okay, well, China, of course, is a great place to do this.
18:07It's a global powerhouse, as we've talked about, electric vehicle,
18:11the batteries, manufacturing capacity, supply chain,
18:13and now seeing this enormous push into electric aviation.
18:18How much of what China has achieved, what can we learn in terms of building a low-altitude economy
18:24from the lessons that they have done in pushing EV?
18:28I think what we can learn first is to follow the trend
18:35because I see that when different people are looking into AI or humanoid or low-altitude economy,
18:45I think the easiest thing is to doubt about the presence of all this technology.
18:49But we need to think optimistically that it's just a matter of time for the technology to be mature
18:57and to get into commercialization.
18:59The cost of joining now is definitely much smaller than when it becomes mature
19:06and you're asking just the companies to come here and set up the manufacturing plant, right?
19:11So I think the first lesson is to join the technology, embrace it.
19:16Then secondly is to look into not capturing everything,
19:21but to look into what is suitable and what kind of resources we have here in Malaysia.
19:26We cannot copy everything from China because we are talking about different kind of ecosystem,
19:32supply chain, and so on and so forth.
19:34We must look into just a niche that is suitable for us.
19:38So for that, I've been thinking that to prioritize ourselves as the main country
19:46that will be working as a Southeast hub would be a very realistic way of doing things.
19:54So we would like to look into how we'll be able to at least capture the early operation of it
20:02and follow on also having this ecosystem built here in Malaysia.
20:06Something that I have not mentioned yet is that Yon-Wui is Malaysian.
20:11He has built his career and now his company in China and you've done really well.
20:15I think TCAP has raised approximately US$140 million from Chinese private investors.
20:24Talk to us about where do you see TCAP tech in just a year or two from now?
20:32Of course, the immediate ambition is to have the commercial operations.
20:39So illustrate to us what's your ambition.
20:43For the next two to three years, our main goal is about certification.
20:47So we need to strive to getting our certification.
20:51So we are doing different kind of ground testing, flight testing, mass production in Anhui, so on and so forth.
20:58Then the commercialization also is about how we'll be able to gain some of the support from the local governments
21:07to start on the using of our EVTOR machine there.
21:13Then follow on, we will be looking into how we'll be able to make more product matrix into our aircraft
21:22line
21:22because at the moment we have only one sort of product.
21:26So we'll be looking into how we'll have more different aircraft that is suitable for different kind of missions.
21:33Then we would like to concentrate ourselves on being aircraft operators, sorry, being an aircraft OEM rather than operators
21:43because operators is the different kind of business and our main skill is on aircraft design.
21:50So we are more of an aircraft manufacturer rather than operators.
21:55So we'll be looking for different partners in Malaysia, in the UAE or in China as well
22:03to look into how we'll be partnering with them and providing more services to the general public.
22:09So that's the goal that we have in the coming years.
22:12And you do have quite a bit in your pipeline because you have announced some fairly substantial aircraft orders.
22:18So I think with a subsidiary of Bank of China for the Middle East market, you have at least 100
22:23aircraft deal.
22:26When do you realistically expect to start delivering aircraft?
22:30That is something linked to our Anhui plant.
22:34So at the moment our Anhui plant, which is about 10 acres for 200 aircraft per year, is at the
22:42final stage of completion.
22:43So by early next year, we will start our mass production of our E-20, E-VTOL aircraft.
22:50Then we do get a backlog of about 1,000 aircraft by now.
22:55Then we will be looking into supplying all of these in the coming years.
23:01So at the moment we are not lack of orders, but we do need to work into how we can
23:07push the production line as fast as possible
23:10because 200 is obviously the plan, but at the very beginning we need to have a ramp-up process.
23:16It's not only by us, it's also by our suppliers as well.
23:20Okay, and there's a fairly big competition as well in China because there are quite a number of companies developing
23:25E-VTOLs,
23:26spending enormous amounts of money, even when the commercial market has yet really taken off yet.
23:33So there's a lot of confidence in this industry.
23:36That's right.
23:37Because if you look into different kind of tech companies in the world, there are not so much options, right?
23:45You can either invest into AI, LMS, human noise, low auto economy, and a little bit on semiconductors,
23:54and even on quantum mechanics, these sort of areas, but I think we are still within reach, so to say,
24:03because no matter you look into AI, LMS, human noise, or low auto economy,
24:10any one of these lines will have their own hurdles to pass.
24:14But as investors, everyone is dealing with uncertainties and opportunities as well.
24:21So the recent years of happening in China is that you see all these LMS companies,
24:29they can be IPO in just three or four years, and even the humanoid companies is the same as well.
24:34So that is helping a lot.
24:36That is helping us to look into how, as a low auto economy companies,
24:42or even the rocket companies, will be able to get IPO in the coming years.
24:47All right, well, certainly very exciting industry that you're in,
24:51and we are also very excited to see more of you in Malaysia,
24:54now that you're an advisor to the Selangor government on low altitude economy.
24:58Thank you so much, Arjun Wei, for making time to come here.
25:00I know you've had a busy, busy bit with SideX, so thank you, and we hope to see you again
25:04soon.
25:04Thanks, thanks, India.