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Textiles can tell us much more than what people wore. They can reveal so much about the way societies lived. On this episode of #TheFutureIs Female Melisa Idris speaks with Suryani Senja Alias, Museum Director of Merdeka Textile Museum, which is under PNB Merdeka Ventures. She’s also the Founder & Managing Director of CULT Gallery, and on the Board of Trustees of Yayasan Hasanah.
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00:10Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to The Future is Female. This is the
00:15show where we find the extraordinary in every woman and we're talking textiles
00:20today because textiles can tell us so much more than what people wore. It can
00:24tell us about the way society was in any period of time which is why I'm so
00:30excited to be here today at the Merdeka Textile Museum in the Merdeka 118
00:35precinct with the museum director of the Merdeka Textile Museum, Suryani Sinjar Alias.
00:41She's also the founder and managing director of Cult Gallery and she's also
00:46on the board of trustees for Yayasan Hassana. Hi welcome to the show. Thank
00:51you so much for hosting me here. What an amazing space from what I've seen and
00:56haven't perused to my liking just yet. It's really quite remarkable but you've
01:01just launched haven't you? Yes. In August. 21st of August. 21st of August. So tell us,
01:08introduce us to the Merdeka Textile Museum. Now where should I start? I can only imagine.
01:14Merdeka Textile Museum was first set up the whole idea. It was set up because of the
01:23generosity of Tan Sri Zeti Akhtar Aziz. She donated over 400 pieces of her mother's
01:33collection. Her late mother, as you know, is a cultural icon. Azza Aziz, budayawan negara. And
01:43she was a champion of Malay culture and Malay traditions. And she wrote a seminal
01:50book about it called Rupa dan Gaya Busana Melayu. Yeah. And she also had a major
01:58collection over many decades. And so this is the collection that has formed the museum.
02:05Yeah. And Merdeka 118 was created to also share culture and heritage. And this is the contribution
02:16to the nation through Azza Aziz's collection. Amazing. I want to talk a little bit about this
02:21amazing collection. But I think for the audience at home might be wondering, why textile? What can
02:27textile teach us that is not inherently or explicitly in history books? I think textile based on Azza Aziz's book,
02:39it is so much more than just a physical object. Because when we look at textiles, nowadays we just
02:45look at how what we wear, right? And what we put on the table, for example, or even curtains or,
02:53you know,
02:55tapestries. But textile is a system and it's a language. And Azza Aziz had done a fantastic, I mean,
03:06she created a fantastic body of research that made us look at textiles differently. Because through
03:14material culture, we know nature. Through material culture, we know society. And through material
03:20culture, we know language. And she really connected the dot between textile and literature that no one has
03:28ever done before. So textile in effect is a language of its own. It's an ecosystem and it's a language
03:35on its
03:36own. Through textiles, Azza Aziz made us discover meaning, motive, symbols, patterns, and the way of
03:43life of a whole civilization, which is like the Malay civilization. What do we want to know about the
03:51Malay civilization that's not written? Or we can look at their material culture and you can find a whole
03:58new discovery through that. So that's what textile means. I have goosebumps when you're talking about
04:04that. I love that material culture, textile is a language. Can you maybe give me an example of
04:12something that this museum and this exhibition has taught you about our heritage? What do we sometimes
04:18take for granted through textile? When you say it's a language, it's a culture, tell me something that maybe
04:24it's not quite obvious to most Malaysians today. I think, for example, right, we've always taken for
04:30granted that what we wear is merely patterns. But what we, or motives, you know, whether it's stripes or
04:39how we wear it is mainly something which is automatic, a default, because you don't know why you fold it
04:47in a
04:48certain way and you don't know why you're almost without consideration. But through a detailed
04:54research of Aziz, every pattern, every motif means something. You know, even we have in, for example,
05:01in our collection, something called batik swastika, you know, batik with a swastika motif in it.
05:07Wow. And in the Hindu Buddhist culture, it was, swastika represented peace, eternal peace. And the Chinese
05:18called it banji. And the Malays called it putos masa. And it's such a beautiful, you know, beautiful way to
05:28present eternity in a motif. The Malays called it putos masa. And it's actually batik swastika. So, I
05:38these are one of the things that, you know, made me realize that we've only seen, you know,
05:45through a very small lens, our material culture, what it means. Yeah. So, that's just one example. And,
05:53of course, in Aziz's book, she also talked about how in the old days, even the way you fold your
06:01sarong,
06:01whether it's to the right or whether it's to the left, you give a signal to the person who sees
06:08you,
06:09whether you are a widow, whether you are married, whether you are single and available.
06:14But just from how you fold your lipat sarong, and, of course, rank and social hierarchy. Even our
06:24tanjak. Did you know that our tanjak is a system of government? Because just by, you know, wearing a
06:32certain type of tanjak, you know whether he's a prime minister, or whether he's a bendahara, whether
06:38he's a panglima. So, it creates a system of government in a way that you don't have to
06:45communicate. People can see you wear it and you already know, oh, okay, he's a prime minister,
06:51he's a bendahara, he's a panglima. So, these are all hidden language that we never really think about.
06:59Yeah. And have we lost it, you think? I think because it's been documented at least in Aziz Aziz's book,
07:07we haven't completely lost it. But we have lost it in the day-to-day understanding,
07:11in the terms of, I mean, deeper understanding of what things really mean. Because things are not
07:18really what they are normally. There are many, many layers of understanding that we can have
07:24of a particular object or of particular behaviour. And I think through Aziz Aziz's book and the museum,
07:34you know, which is almost like the book manifested into a physical space, thoughts and ideas from the
07:41book into a physical space. And the curation, we aim to deepen understanding of our own culture
07:49and language. Amazing. Yeah. And in this case, it's a textile language. I wonder what the way I,
07:55how I ikat my sarang, what that tells us. But now you, you know, if you knew, you would be
08:01more aware.
08:01Be more aware. There's a self-awareness of our own culture and what it means. And I think it's
08:08important for us to rediscover that. So, Rani, can I talk to you a little bit about the curation
08:12part that you mentioned? Yes. And I think one of the most interesting thing about the way a museum is
08:19created is the choices that have to be made. So, when you talk about transforming the 400-piece
08:26collection of Aziz Aziz, you have to make choices about what to display. Yes. And like you said,
08:31the objective was to explain as much as possible, but you also have to think about what to explain
08:36and what to leave out. So, those are the choices that you'll have to make. Talk to me a little
08:41bit
08:41about that. How much did you and the team, how did you approach that question of what to explain,
08:48what to leave out, what to display? I think, first of all, I always go to the source,
08:53which Aziz Aziz's book is like a major, major source for curation. But it was so thick. I mean,
08:59every chapter has incredible discoveries for me. It was very difficult to select. And everything is
09:07interesting and you want to put everything in, right? Yes. But of course, we have a finite collection
09:14and the book has some fundamental values that she wanted to highlight. So, I tried
09:23to marry the two. And of course, my personal bias against, you know, for things that have not been
09:30really documented or talked about, you know, even the fact that she devoted one whole chapter to colour.
09:39It's a culture of colour. And she says the Malay culture is a Malay is a culture of colour,
09:44budaya warna. Oh, wow. Yeah. And so, I decided that it was so fascinating, the whole chapter
09:50just on colour and what it meant to Malays and how in the Malay culture, they have over 40 shades
09:58of red
09:59alone because the Malays were so enamoured with the colour red. And so, in the Malay culture, just the colour
10:08red meant so much to the Malays because they named each colour with nature. So, the closeness between
10:18the Malays to nature and how it translated into designs, pattern, colour, meaning, rank, social hierarchy
10:28is so fascinating. So, I thought, you know, these are some of the things that we have to put in
10:34the
10:34museum and that kind of shaped the curation. So, it was started from the book, but it also what
10:42kind of grabbed me in terms of what hasn't been said or what would make people wonder like,
10:49what is this culture? It's so, you know, fascinating and it's never been really talked about before.
10:56Can I ask a little bit about you personally? I mean, we're talking about the museum, but I'm fascinated
11:01to know. Where did this passion for the storytelling through art and culture and through mediums like
11:09textile, where did that come from? When did it become more than just an interest or a hobby for you
11:15and
11:15it became more of a calling? I think it's quite embedded in me because I, as a Kelantanese, I was
11:22born in
11:22Kelantanese and I grew up watching wayang kulit. I mean, you know, as a child, I still remember very clearly
11:30watching wayang kulit, Mak Yong, my aunt is like a Mak Yong dancer, my father a historian and
11:41most of his friends are from the creative community or writers or performers. So,
11:49I have always been surrounded by culture and I think I took it for granted that that was the world.
11:55And I think I found it always, always fascinating, even though I did study law and went into banking,
12:04but eventually it was like a full circle and I came back to culture because I felt that, you know,
12:12culture is so
12:15deep and it is so influential without us really realising it. You know, it's really a kind of soft power
12:24and if you tell your story well, you know, you can entrance people.
12:32Yeah.
12:33Did you see a gap in Malaysia in this? Yes.
12:37Yeah. Tell me more. Do we appreciate what we have?
12:41Well, I spent like more than 10 years abroad and in Europe mainly and Canada and I realised that
12:51they do their stories really well. They tell their stories really well. You know,
12:57they have like hundreds of thousands of years of history and it made me feel like why can't we do
13:05the same in Malaysia because our history is also extremely, it's an extremely long history. It's not
13:14just independence onwards, like 1957 onwards, you know, we started living as a country. But for centuries,
13:22we have been going through various civilisations, you know, the region, Majapahit, Srivijaya, Langkasuka and
13:31you know, we're talking about thousands of years of history and but we don't feel it. When, you know,
13:39when I walk around, you know, KL or even other states, I don't feel that thousands of years of history,
13:47I'm someone reminding me that my civilisation is old as well, you know, through our material culture,
13:55through our stories, through our objects, and our artefacts, our architecture, our designs. So, I really
14:02wanted to do something about it and so that's why I started getting immersed in culture. And so many of
14:13the
14:13artisans or even women or people who documented what this meant are women, right? They are the people
14:19who create the art, who live and breathe the culture that embedding in the fabric of society. Can you talk
14:27a little bit about why it's so important to you especially, and I know it's important to you, the
14:32way you have highlighted the hand of a woman in creating art and culture? It's interesting you say that
14:41because in our material culture, especially in Malaysia and in the region, a lot of our artisans,
14:50actually like maybe, you know, the majority of our artisans who weave, who embroider, are women.
14:59And the women are telling their stories through our material culture. So, even if our culture
15:06hasn't been documented in writing, for example, a lot of the writing still are about old Malaya,
15:14it's still bicolonial officers, which is why I really think Azhar Aziz's perspective is so, so important
15:25because she's a pioneer female journalist. She is such a champion of women's rights.
15:31And the way she writes about culture is so different because she went through
15:36our own stories, hikayat, ungkapan, pantun, sajak, and you know, it's our own people who tell our story.
15:46And so, and women who, you know, who embroider and who weave, they are telling the stories through
15:54motives and symbols. So, it's a different language and a different code system altogether. And it's a
16:01woman's way of telling their story. So, I think, which is why textiles are so important because it
16:07creates another layer of interpretation of what our civilisation is all about. And it's not something
16:14written. Yeah. So, yeah. So, when somebody comes to the Merdeka Textile Museum, what do you hope they come
16:22with, open mind, but what do you hope they leave with? I hope they leave with a changed world perspective.
16:32Even if they know one more thing about the Malay world through our textile, I think our job is done.
16:40You know, even if they realise that it's not just batik and sungkit, but it's batik, sungkit, tenun, pelangi,
16:48ikat loseng, our job is done because their world is now bigger than when they first come into the museum.
16:58And do you, how do you approach, a lot of this is heritage of textile, right? Are you a purist
17:06in that
17:06sense where you think that you want to preserve it in its current form? Do you think about the
17:12evolution of our material culture? And has that been documented? Has that been celebrated enough?
17:19That's exactly what we're trying to do here. Because on one hand, we need to restore,
17:24we need to preserve the old. But on the other hand, we have to acknowledge and encourage the new.
17:33So we have the restoration and preservation part because we have a conservation lab that will,
17:42that is maintaining Azhar Aziz's collection. You have a conservation lab? Yes, we do.
17:47Tell me. Of, yeah, conservators. We have three conservators of our own and in-house.
17:53So we have a whole education center that we haven't launched properly yet, but we're already working
18:00on it. And the conservation center with a fabric library and a textile knowledge center. So our
18:10fabric library will be the first of its kind where we gather and accumulate materials so that people can
18:19actually, um, learn about textile and textile history and knowledge through touching. Oh, wow. Yeah.
18:26So it's like a physical, you know, physical swatches. Because textile is just meant to be,
18:31it's begging to be touched and appreciated. And also there's textures. And of course with
18:35stitching or embroidery and weaving, you can, you know, look at the picture, but it's not the same
18:43as looking at, oh, this is how they stitch it. Or this is the texture, or this is the, uh,
18:49luminosity of
18:50the gold thread that they were talking about in the pantons and sajak. So we want to kind of, you
18:56know,
18:56complete the circle of learning and knowledge through, um, a fabric library, um, as well as a textile
19:04knowledge center. And also the opportunity for people to see the work of restoration and preservation
19:11work, uh, you know, live. So we'll be featuring that as well. When you were setting up the museum,
19:17curating the, um, the, the exhibition, did you have a template to go off on? Or did you look at
19:23other
19:23places? What are there other textile museums across the world that you said, wow, Malaysia should really
19:28have one? Well, parts. Okay. So I had an idea because I really admired, um, for example, the Calico
19:37museum, um, in Ahmedabad in India. It's one of the top, you know, uh, textile museums for me. And of
19:47course
19:47the BNA, Victoria and Albert Museum in London, um, and the Queen Sirikit Museum in Bangkok. Yes. So I actually
19:57went to all these museums and, um, particularly at the Queen Sirikit Museum, um, they were really kind
20:05to share so much behind the scenes as well. I went into their conservation lab. As a matter of fact,
20:11our design was very much based on the conservation lab in Queen Sirikit Museum, as well as Tiliki and
20:19Gilbin's collection in Bangkok. So, you know, really thanks to them that I had a lot of benchmarks, uh, to
20:27look at. But in terms of a whole integrated, uh, museum like Merdeka Textile Museum and the kind of
20:34components that we have here, uh, it's our own. Um, it's actually the concept that I've always,
20:41you know, uh, wanted to create, uh, but at least we could learn from different parts from other museums
20:48in the region. So I keep going back to something you said earlier in our conversation about how we really
20:55need to be better at storytelling. Yes. What our heritage, our, our civilization. Are there other
21:03stories that you would be keen to tell in the future beyond the material culture? Um, there are actually,
21:11but I think to start with, um, um, this museum, for example, it's not just about textiles, but I want
21:18people to discover Malay classical literature because... The sajak, the pantun, the hikayat, uh,
21:26the ungkapan riaus, because the language is so stunningly beautiful, and I think we need to
21:33rediscover, uh, our own language. And the fact that, um, textiles in the museum are interpreted using
21:40Malay classical literature, it's a whole body of knowledge that I think we have kind of lost in
21:48terms of using it in a daily, on a daily basis, you know? So imagine if we start reciting poetry
21:54again
21:54on a daily basis, and we see poetry in our bus stops, our, you know, um, uh, our stores. Instead
22:03of
22:03using quotes, we use our own pantun or sajak or ungkapan. So I think, you know, that's one thing I
22:11really,
22:12really want to people to discover, uh, coming out of this museum as well. It's a body of knowledge
22:19whereby textile is one and literature is the other. Uh, and then if we combine the two, I think we
22:27will
22:27become more whole again as a society, you know, because there's so much of us in these two bodies
22:35of knowledge. Do you think that this appreciation for what we have is supported by the people who
22:43makes decisions and writes policies and signs the checks, the budget allocations? Do we see, um,
22:51this as purely decorative or, uh, almost like a CSR, um, endeavor as opposed to really cherishing?
22:59So what would we lose when we don't see it as part of our, our heritage, right? I think for
23:04a long time,
23:05um, um, for example, our crafts, you know, have been associated, uh, with tourism and I think that's
23:14always a danger, uh, whereby if our policies, uh, always associate creativity with tourism. So I think
23:23we're, you know, um, but always, there's always a, um, I think, um, conflicting interests, you know,
23:32between commercial and, uh, you know, non-commercial. And so we always have to strike a balance.
23:39And I think that's what the museum is about, uh, striking a balance and sharing culture and
23:45heritage without commercializing it. So I think, you know, we're getting there because I, Warisan KL,
23:52for example, uh, you know, the, uh, I see so many different public cultural spaces now coming up,
24:00you know, the restoration of bangunan Sultan Abdul Samad and all the, um, interesting cultural
24:06spaces that have come up around it, including Medeca Textile Museum. So I think there's a, a new kind
24:13of awareness, um, that we all can work together and we don't cancel out each other, you know,
24:20commercial interests as well as policy, as well as, um, society, you know, the interest can actually,
24:28um, you know, uh, support each other. It can be a win-win. Yeah, it can be a win-win.
24:34So, uh, I think,
24:36you know, it's not, uh, I do see, I do see a new awareness, uh, what, how culture is actually
24:43as
24:44important as, you know, commercial interests. So, yeah, so I think we always, we always can improve,
24:51of course, but yeah. I, I can't wait to go around and, and take a closer look and learn as
24:56much as
24:57possible from this museum and I thank you so much for all your hard work and putting this together.
25:01Thank you for your time today. Thank you. Welcome. You're welcome. That's all the time we have for you
25:04on this episode of The Futures Female. I'm Melissa Idris signing up for the evening. Thank you so much for
25:10watching and good night.