- 7 minutes ago
She's known the world over as the most successful and candid plus-size model in history, but Ashley Graham is way more than just a model. Through her clothing designs, brand empire, and advocacy, she's helping to lead a revolution of the female form.
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00:01Welcome to Unstyled. I'm your host, Christine Barbrick, co-founder and global editor-in-chief
00:06of Refinery29. Each week, I invite a notable person to come in and talk with us as we explore
00:12the funny, inspiring, sometimes heartbreaking tales of life, work, and love, as told through
00:19the things that we wear. To call Ashley Graham a quote-unquote model is a pretty big oversimplification.
00:33Yes, today's guest is a model and happens to be a legendary one. But she isn't just
00:38sought after in front of the camera. Ashley Graham is a multi-hyphenate to the max. She
00:43has her own clothing lines aimed at body inclusivity. The latest, a collection of chic and practical
00:48bathing suits called Swimsuits for All. She regularly drops truth bombs as a host at the
00:53Miss USA pageant. And if you haven't seen her in Joe Jonas' toothbrush video, pause this
00:58right now, go watch it, and come back. Don't worry, we'll wait.
01:04Most of you know Ashley Graham as the world's most famous quote-unquote plus-size model.
01:08In industry speak, a plus-size model targets anyone technically over a size 4. But when
01:14we go shopping, plus-size clothing starts at a size 14. See the disconnect here? Add to
01:20that the majority of women here in the U.S. and many other countries around the world actually
01:25identify as part of this category. Plus, per se, isn't a niche, like some brands have led
01:30us to believe. And to Ashley, the term plus-size is practically an illusion and just another way
01:36to put women in a box, which is exactly how she is leading a revolution of the female form.
01:43Hi, Ashley.
01:44Hi.
01:44Thanks for being here on Unstyled.
01:46Yes, thanks for having me. This is awesome.
01:48I know, we're really excited. So, I always like opening up, well, I like to sometimes open
01:53up with talking about how you started your morning. It's early, I'm obsessed with rituals,
01:58I've heard that you don't really have any rituals.
02:00No.
02:00But tell us about your morning this morning.
02:02I woke up at 6, got to the boxing gym at 6.30, which is Gleason's in Dumbo. I'm obsessed.
02:10My trainer, he trains like Usher and Common.
02:13Gleason's is hardcore.
02:14Girl, he is insane.
02:15There's a big sweat stink in there.
02:17Yeah, there's a lot of fine sweaty men.
02:19That's some fun.
02:20There are.
02:21So, I got there at 6.30, left around 7.30, ran home, and got ready to come meet you.
02:28And in the cab, I had my breakfast. I don't know how I'm not having coffee right now,
02:32and I'm still alive. It must be the boxing.
02:34Are you sparring yet?
02:35No, girl, no.
02:38I'm too afraid.
02:40You know, I keep protecting the moneymaker.
02:42Against the ropes.
02:43Oh, God. But it frightens me.
02:45You just mentioned talking about protecting your moneymaker. What's your moneymaker?
02:49My moneymaker's my face in boxing.
02:50Your face.
02:51Yeah, honey. Shake your moneymaker like somebody about to pay you.
02:56You have to protect your moneymaker in boxing.
02:59I keep making these coins, girl.
03:01So, tell us about your scouting moment.
03:03Okay, so I was 12 years old in a mall in Omaha, Nebraska.
03:07Why was a mall?
03:08I don't know. I think that's where they go.
03:10Scouter's 12 malls.
03:10Yeah.
03:11Well, that's where girls in the Midwest hang out.
03:12There's nothing else to do except for eat, drink, and go shopping.
03:16You're with your mom. You're with your friends.
03:18Dad. I was with my dad.
03:18Okay.
03:19And we were in Omaha. We lived in Lincoln at the time.
03:22And we were just shopping. And this guy came up to me and said,
03:25Hey, you want to be a model? We were doing a scouting.
03:28And we look over and there's like a line of girls.
03:30And it's like, what is going on?
03:32And next thing you know, he says, come to this hotel tomorrow.
03:36Like, we'll give you this cold rundown.
03:38Was your dad like, hell no.
03:39He was like, you know, my dad's a business entrepreneur.
03:43So, he's like, let's see.
03:44You know, like he's very open-minded to a degree.
03:48And we went the next day and it was all whittled down to about 20-something girls.
03:52They were like, yeah, you would be a plus-size model.
03:55And like, we would help you, train you, like whatever that took.
03:58And you can't really train someone to be a model.
04:00But you can prepare them for what it's like to be on set.
04:04Or you can prepare them for what it's like to go into a casting or, you know, speak to a
04:09client.
04:09So, that's what they did.
04:10And they kind of put us in this thing called an expo.
04:14And we all went from Nebraska to Texas.
04:17And they kind of put us on display.
04:19Like, we had to do like a song and dance kind of situation.
04:22And there's all the big agencies, all from Europe and New York and L.A. and Miami were there.
04:27And that's where Wilhelmina actually found me.
04:30And I was signed with them at 14, 13, 14, 13, yeah.
04:34That is young.
04:35Very young.
04:36And then at 15, I went to Ford.
04:37And I was there for 10 years.
04:39And now I've been at IMG for three.
04:40I mean, when you were 12 or 13, you were probably still developing too.
04:44I don't know.
04:45I mean, I was already 5'9", a size 12, probably 150 pounds.
04:51And I was hot.
04:55I wish I felt that way about myself when I was 12.
04:59I was 5'9", too, at about 13 years old.
05:01Oh, yeah.
05:02Let me tell you, that is not cool.
05:03Yeah, yeah.
05:04It sucks for dating.
05:06I mean, like, the boys.
05:06It makes school pictures really, really shitty.
05:09You know, you can point yourself out no matter what.
05:11Like, it's like, oh, there she is.
05:12They always put you on the end by the teacher.
05:14Yeah, I know.
05:15I was always by the teacher.
05:16But the teachers were always my friends.
05:18It was so weird.
05:19I was such a terrible student.
05:22And they said, but she's so charming and so sweet.
05:24And we always have great conversations.
05:26They say we always have good conversations.
05:29I know.
05:30It's so bizarre.
05:31I love the idea of, like, you, like, hanging out and having cocktails with, like, the teachers
05:35after work.
05:35Hey, you going to happy hour?
05:37I know, right?
05:38Exactly.
05:38Exactly.
05:39Old soul.
05:40Well, before you were scouted, did you ever think of yourself as pretty?
05:43No.
05:44I was always second best in my eyes.
05:45Like, I was always not thin enough, not the prettiest, not the best in the sport, not
05:50the smartest.
05:51So I always kind of told myself, oh, you're second best.
05:54But that's okay.
05:54It'll do.
05:55Why did you feel that way?
05:56I don't know.
05:57Because I was never the most popular.
05:59The boys didn't always like me.
06:01I, you know, I couldn't keep even A's and B's.
06:03I guess it was the pressure of just, like, being a young girl, not having a super thin
06:08athletic body.
06:09So you put those pressures on yourself as a woman and as a young girl, even.
06:13We didn't have social media.
06:14We didn't have, you know, all these outlets.
06:17My mom and dad wouldn't even let me listen to rap music.
06:19So it was country.
06:20What music were you listening to?
06:21Country and Christian music.
06:23That was it.
06:23That's rough.
06:24Ding, ding, ding, ding.
06:27Lisa Mulde, Glen Campbell or something like that.
06:29Yeah.
06:30It would be Johnny Cash.
06:31I mean, I love Johnny Cash.
06:32Well, you probably got Taylor Swift on the early end, right?
06:33No, no, no, no, no.
06:34She's a much younger generation than me.
06:36I mean, I'm 28.
06:37But, like, no.
06:38She came later.
06:39And I was like, what's this?
06:41No, it was, like, Reba McIntyre and Shania Twain.
06:45I love Shania Twain.
06:47I love Shania Twain.
06:49I don't impress a meme.
06:51Yeah.
06:52I was a singer in my, you know, old life.
06:55So, yeah.
06:56So I was always second best in my book.
06:57And then my mom, you know, at, like, nine or ten, chopped all my hair off.
07:03Did she do it herself or did she take you to a salon?
07:06No, she took me to a salon.
07:07But she might as well have done it herself.
07:09It was horrifying.
07:10It's, like, very short bangs, very short hair.
07:13Like, and I, my hair was so thick and it was just, and I had these really big round Harry
07:17Potter glasses.
07:18It was very terrifying.
07:20Then it just took me a couple years to kind of, like, you know, woman out.
07:24My hair grew out.
07:25My hips came in.
07:27The boobies were nice and high.
07:29And next thing you know, I'm in a mall and somebody's like, hey, you want to be a model?
07:32And even then, as a model, I never felt like I was the best.
07:36I always felt like second fiddle.
07:38I always felt like you're not number one because of the size thing, because I was always the
07:43youngest, because, you know, there's just always somebody ahead of you or whatever.
07:46But for whatever reason, also, it was a competition.
07:50Because as a model, you're always taught, oh, that girl's got your job.
07:53Or this girl's also up for it.
07:55So what are you going to do to get it?
07:56It's a lot of pressure.
07:57It's so much pressure.
07:58And I think the moment I stopped competing and the moment I stopped evaluating myself,
08:04comparing myself to the women around me in every aspect of my life, that's when I started
08:08to succeed.
08:31First of all, I loved your TED Talk.
08:33It was so inspiring.
08:34And to be perfectly honest, terrifying.
08:36I love that you showed a picture of you and your mom.
08:39And you talked about how your mom was a great support early on and in making you feel more
08:45confident and more assured of yourself.
08:47But I think a lot of us out there don't really grow up with that, you know, that mentorship
08:52and that feeling like we're good enough.
08:54What do you think about that?
08:55Like, how did that really sort of prepare you for being in what is probably one of the
09:00most judgmental industries probably in the world?
09:03My mom did the best thing that I believe every mother should do.
09:07And she never in front of me said that she was fat or ugly or that she needed to go
09:13on
09:13a diet.
09:14And to this day doesn't do those things.
09:17And, you know, my mom has fluctuated in her weight.
09:20She's just a brilliant woman.
09:21And she's just never judged herself or the people around her.
09:25And I think never having seen that and being a girl like me who wanted to be in, who wanted
09:30to be popular, who was constantly judging myself, who was constantly judging the women
09:34around me.
09:34And to have a mother like her to just ground me every time I'd come home, like, I'm fat,
09:39I'm ugly.
09:39I'm too this.
09:40I'm too that.
09:40She would just be like, are you serious?
09:42Sometimes she would just laugh at me.
09:43Like, are you joking me?
09:45And I really encourage mothers, whether your daughters are older or younger, don't judge
09:51yourself.
09:52Don't talk bad about yourself in front of your kids because your kid is a product of
09:57you.
09:57So if you're constantly saying you're fat, ugly, or whatever, your kid's going to look
10:01at themselves and say, my mom says that about her.
10:04I must be the exact same way.
10:05I mean, the thing is, every single woman I know looks at herself when she's getting ready,
10:10when she's putting on her lotion, when she's doing her hair, whatever.
10:12And you're judging yourself constantly.
10:14And your words have power.
10:16And why would you want to speak negativity into your body?
10:20Why don't you speak life into your body?
10:22I think that moment when you come out on stage and you're connecting with yourself, you're
10:28confronting yourself on stage in the mirror, I felt uncomfortable, you know, not for you,
10:33but for myself.
10:34Yeah.
10:34You know, you launched an incredible line of swimwear called Swimsuits for All, which
10:38made me really think about the fitting room experience for a lot of women.
10:41I don't know why people don't get hip to the fact that fitting room experiences are so
10:48demoralizing and they really warp your sense of how you see yourself.
10:52And also the sizing is always strange and no one understands it.
10:55What do you think about that?
10:56If I ever had a store, I would definitely make sure that the lighting was set up like
11:00one of those ring lights so that she or he looked amazing every time they put on something
11:04new.
11:05Because the lighting overhead is just, it's like raccoon eyes.
11:08You see every dimple that's in your body.
11:10I mean, it's terrifying.
11:12And the other thing is every store is such different sizing.
11:15You just never know what you're going to get.
11:17Your collection with Dress Barn.
11:18What were they offering you that maybe nobody else was or where you felt the opportunity was
11:22amazing?
11:23That I could do whatever I wanted.
11:25Really?
11:26So I said, great.
11:27We're going to lift up the hemline.
11:28We're going to take down the neckline and we're going to make things tighter and we're
11:33going to lose the paisley prints and we're going to just go for it.
11:37They were really great.
11:38They were like, how do you want to do this?
11:39You know, we really want to make sure that we, that it looks good on a size four and it
11:43looks great on a size 24.
11:45And I was like, great.
11:46Well, we've got to get a smaller fit model.
11:49We've got to get a bigger fit model because it's not just about extending the sizes.
11:52It's about actually making it perfect on a form where you can make it bigger starting
11:57at like a size eight instead of a size four and building it up to a 24.
12:02I love what you just said, making it perfect on a form.
12:05Yes.
12:06How do you want women to feel when they go into the fitting room and they're trying on
12:09your stuff?
12:11Well, I want them to feel empowered and I want them to know that every piece of clothing
12:18that I've made for them, I've thought about them.
12:20The beautiful thing about being a curvy woman is that we're all created differently.
12:25Yes, women in general, but the best part about being a curvy, if you want to call yourself
12:30plus size, a curve, a sexalicious, whatever you want to say.
12:34I say that all the time, right?
12:36But the best thing is that our bodies are so different and not just one piece of clothing
12:42is going to fit you.
12:43So take it all.
12:44I mean, I have thought about every type of body when I've made everything.
12:47So I want her to feel empowered and I want her to feel sexy in her own right.
12:51And I think that it's coming across.
12:53I mean, I have women write me all the time and just say, I would have never gotten naked
12:58in front of my husband if it weren't for you.
13:00We had the best sex of our lives.
13:01I would have never worn a bikini on the beach and my kids were so proud of me.
13:05I would have never walked down the street so confidently if you didn't make that dress
13:10that covered my arms, but it was just above the knee.
13:13So it's for every woman.
13:15The thing is, I'm not just doing it just to smack my name on something and say, hey,
13:20this is mine, doing it to change the world, to change the fashion industry, to wake people
13:25up and say, why aren't we dressing women that are above a size, you know, 14 and making
13:31them just as fashionable as the rest of the world?
13:33You're revolutionizing the female form.
13:35Oh, yeah.
13:37You're welcome.
13:40Being sexy.
13:41I sometimes wonder, is it like a tree falling in the forest?
13:44If I'm not sort of being seen as sexy or if my husband's not seeing me sexy, like,
13:48does it count?
13:49I think a lot of women sometimes have, like, they struggle to feel sexy on their own.
13:54Do you know what I mean?
13:54It's more sort of like we've been kind of taught to sort of be sexy in the gaze of someone
13:59else.
13:59Does that make sense?
14:00I understand what you're saying.
14:01Yeah.
14:02But you really seem like someone that has very much embodied this very personal sense of
14:08what being sexy means.
14:09It's not about sexuality.
14:11It's really about this acceptance of your purpose in life.
14:16And I think that that just sort of really activates this energy.
14:20Do you know what I mean?
14:21Totally.
14:21I think knowing who you are, knowing your purpose, like you said, and then also confidence.
14:26I think all of those things embody sexy.
14:29But the thing is, sexy is so different for everybody.
14:31Every woman embodies it differently.
14:33And one of my taglines for my lingerie is, sexy is a state of mind.
14:38Because I don't want women to think, I have to put on lingerie to be sexy.
14:41I don't want women to think, I have to show leg or boob or whatever to be sexy.
14:46It has nothing to do with that.
14:48It's all about your mental stability of who you think you are, your confidence level, and
14:53also just owning everything.
14:55Owning your job, owning your outfit, owning your hair, owning your personality.
14:59And I think that's the key to really just being sexy.
15:02And then the other thing is, I don't wear lingerie to be sexy or for my man.
15:08I wear lingerie because I want to wear it.
15:10And I think that's the other thing.
15:12So many people are doing it for others.
15:14Why not do it for yourself?
15:15Have a selfish moment.
15:18I think some people feel guilty about that.
15:20They feel like they're not worth it if it's just for them.
15:22And I think a lot of women are very selfless.
15:25And I think they're all about giving to other people.
15:27We're catered like that, yeah.
15:28And I think that's a great reminder.
15:30I don't prescribe to any kinds of rules about fashion and about style.
15:35I mean, that's what Unstyle is all about.
15:36But I would love to know, like, what are some things that you wear that just make you feel
15:40amazing?
15:42Wow.
15:43You know, it's so interesting.
15:44What's your secret weapon?
15:48My go-to secret weapon outfit is a dress that is to the knee or just below the knee.
15:57Bodycon usually doesn't have to be.
15:59And a little bit of cleavage.
16:02Boom.
16:03Yesterday, I wore one with buttons all the way up the front.
16:06And I swear I could have gotten anything I wanted in life in that dress.
16:11I would personally feel ridiculous in a Bodycon dress.
16:13But I want to try.
16:14Really?
16:15Yeah.
16:15Come on.
16:16You know, I've got some hips.
16:18Yeah.
16:19I've got a booty.
16:19Yeah.
16:20But I don't know.
16:21I just, I think I'm always just so concerned about comfort.
16:24And I feel like sometimes dresses that are really fitted to the knee, they look amazing
16:28on so many people.
16:29I feel like I can't walk in them.
16:30Are they hard to walk in?
16:31No, you just have to get, like, stretch.
16:33You've got to get some stretch.
16:34Come on.
16:35Yeah.
16:36Yeah.
16:37Just give me some lessons in the Bodycon dress.
16:39I know.
16:40To me, Bodycon dresses are the most easy because you throw on, like, a really great pair of Spanx.
16:44You put the dress on and you don't have to think about anything the rest of the day.
16:49I am someone that thinks Birkenstocks are sexy.
16:51That's great.
16:53Perfect.
16:54Perfect.
16:55Everybody talks about plus size and the plus size industry at Refinery29.
16:59That's been a huge mission of ours is to really divert attention to body diversity, body positivity,
17:05embracing your shape, claiming your space.
17:08That's what our summer program, Take Back the Beach, was all about.
17:11I mean, what can we teach the industry to really help sort of rise up and acknowledge
17:16the fact that this is a very, very dated theory?
17:20I believe the word plus size is made for things and not people.
17:23And it's not about it being such a negative word.
17:27It's about the things that come along with it when you put it on a woman or a man now
17:32because there are plus size male models now.
17:35I think that if we stepped away from that and we just said, okay, we're always going to have the
17:39word.
17:39It's just a matter of when we use it.
17:40And then we wouldn't have to have this discussion.
18:10It's about my body and not because I thought it was a word that, you know, I just always thought
18:16it was a word that meant unhealthy or something that meant something, you know, that people were going to look
18:23at me in a different way.
18:25Now, there are women who want to be called plus size.
18:28There's a community of women who say, I am plus size and I am proud.
18:32And I'm like, you know what, that's great.
18:34You want to be called plus, that's fine.
18:36I just don't think that the fashion industry as a whole is going to be able to come together and
18:43say, you know, we're going to start making plus size clothes for just those women.
18:48Like, why does it have to be a category?
18:50Why can't it just be like extended sizes or, you know, and then those people also have a rebuttal.
18:57They say until every single company is carrying plus sizes, then we'll stop calling ourself plus size.
19:04So I get it.
19:04I mean, I get both sides.
19:06It's just a word that I've never felt comfortable in my spirit using.
19:11It's just, I mean, it's not a word.
19:13It's not something I call myself.
19:14Do you ever get tired talking about your body and talking about your shape and talking about being sexy?
19:18Yeah, all the time.
19:19I feel a little, I feel like I'm being annoying even like asking you right now, but I feel like
19:23it's important to just like, you know.
19:25That's the thing.
19:26Like, there's nobody else really talking about it.
19:28We have the Amy Schumers and the Rebel Wilsons and the Melissa McCarthys.
19:31I mean, they're all really funny, but I'm talking about it realistically.
19:35Like, did you see my cellulite on Instagram?
19:37Like, something you deal with.
19:38Let's talk about that post.
19:39Yeah, you deal with it every single day.
19:41And so does every other woman.
19:44A little cellulite never hurt anybody.
19:46That's right.
19:46But I love that post so much.
19:48And I actually noticed it got a ton of likes.
19:50It did.
19:51A ton.
19:52It did.
19:52I'm not, you know, walking around with booty shorts on just to showcase it.
19:58Like, you know, don't get me wrong.
20:00But I'm not going to be afraid to post it on Instagram to say, hey, everybody, guess what?
20:05But this thing I keep talking about, cellulite, that maybe you don't see because a lot of
20:09the photos that I do for advertising are photoshopped.
20:12Guess what?
20:13It actually is here.
20:14And I don't think that it's a hideous thing.
20:17Yeah, I've had my moments with it.
20:18I still speak to it.
20:19And I say, cellulite, you're kicking today.
20:20But that's all right.
20:21I'm just going to cover you up.
20:22And we're going to deal with you tomorrow.
20:24And it doesn't matter.
20:25I mean, you just keep the day moving.
20:26But the thing is, every woman has that.
20:29She may not have cellulite, but she has something that she may not really, truly like about herself.
20:33And that image to me was just letting women know, like, you don't have to be perfect, quote
20:37unquote.
20:38You just have to be you.
20:39And you have to love you.
20:41I think perfect is boring.
20:42Perfect is boring.
20:44What was it like to have a pillow fight with Joe Jonas?
20:49He wasn't my generation of like teeny bopper.
20:51I was like looking up his height, his weight.
20:54I'm like, does he know what he got himself into?
20:56Like, I'm a big girl.
20:58You guys look good together.
20:59And then all of a sudden, yeah, we look great.
21:01But I think the best thing about it was they were showing that love comes in all shapes
21:05and sizes.
21:05You don't have to be equally, you know, the same hotness or height or weight or whatever
21:10just to get in bed together.
21:12But yeah, we had fun.
21:13Thank you so much for being on Unstyled, Ashley.
21:16This is so much fun.
21:17I had a blast.
21:19I hope you're inspired after hearing Ashley Graham's story.
21:22For even more Unstyled extras, check out Refinery29 or my Instagram at Christine Barberik.
21:28You can also join the conversation using the hashtag Unstyled across your social media.
21:33And of course, we'd be super grateful if you'd please subscribe to Unstyled on iTunes
21:37and rate us while you're there.
21:39You can head to refinery29.com to find this episode and more.
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21:47inbox every week.
21:48Our show today was produced and edited by Elisa Kreisinger, with production assistance
21:53from Rebecca Easley for Refinery29.
21:55Copy and research support provided by Lila Brilsen.
21:58Our theme music today is by the artist Ka.
22:01Hannes Brown produced our episode music, and we recorded Unstyled with Paul Ruist.
22:05We'll see you back here next Monday for a conversation with Norma Kamali on the art of reinvention.
22:12We'll see you back here next Monday.