- 7 minutes ago
This episode will shed light on perhaps one of the most perplexing chasms in the religious world - Science and the bible. There are Christians... and then there are Creationists - this is a whole new level of biblical interpretation that flies in the face of any and all scientific discovery regarding the creation of the world. Grace will grapple with the concept of where the line gets drawn between fact and fiction. Can you be a scientist and still believe in a God? Does being a creationist mean denying scientific evidence? How did Noah fit those dinosaurs on the ark?!
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00:00In your field of work, solve it right now for us, how did we get here?
00:04You know, I'm the wrong guy to ask that.
00:06Oh, man. Okay, well, wrap it up, guys.
00:10Where did we come from? And how did we get here?
00:13Humans have been debating the origins of the universe since, well, forever.
00:18Norse mythology says that the first humans were made out of driftwood found by the gods.
00:22The Ethiopian creation story tells of a creator god named Wak,
00:26who created mountains by raining fire on the Earth for seven years.
00:30And the Christian Bible says God created light on day one,
00:34plants in sea on day three, birds and sea animals on day five,
00:37humans came next, and on the seventh day, he rested.
00:40Relatable.
00:42However, since the 1880s, the scientific community has proven the theory of evolution
00:47as a reliable model for how life on Earth was and continues to be created.
00:51Evolution says that human lineage diverged from apes at least seven million years ago.
00:57So, a little different than fish on day five.
01:01Personally, I've never had an issue accepting evolution as fact, despite being a Christian.
01:06However, some people feel differently.
01:08Really differently.
01:10The majority of Americans believe that science and religion are often in conflict.
01:14So, I want to look at what fuels this ongoing debate.
01:18Does believing in science somehow compromise a person's faith?
01:21And does believing in God prevent someone from engaging in science?
01:25Full disclosure, I've failed science class multiple times.
01:29I mean, I can say this, but these are definitely gay birds.
01:33So, in preparation for this episode, I needed a crash course in some of the terms being tossed around in
01:38this debate.
01:38Maybe I'll start off with a basic.
01:42Oh, no.
01:43What is creationism?
01:45Creationism is the belief that the creation story in the Bible is real,
01:50in that there were six 24-hour days and we got, like, land, animals, sea animals, humans, birds.
02:00And then on the seventh day, God rested. He was like, no more. I'm exhausted.
02:04And that is creationism.
02:07Willy, if you're going to get up, go around.
02:11What's Darwinism?
02:13Darwinism is the belief that we all evolved through natural selection and survival of the fittest.
02:22We're talking about your ancestors. Do you have anything to say?
02:26Safe to say I pretty much know all the terms now, so it's time to talk to some real experts.
02:30One of the coolest things here is that sometimes when the dinosaurs went down in the mud, you'd get impressions
02:36of their skin.
02:36So we know…
02:37Oh, that's insane.
02:40What?
02:40You know what their skin looked like.
02:42Oh, I just got chills. That's so weird.
02:44These are actual imprints of dinosaur skin with a magnifying glass…
02:47No, that's how they know they're lizard-y type things.
02:50Yeah, yeah.
02:50This is Dr. Jody Martin, the Associate Vice President, Research and Curator of Crustacea here at the museum.
02:57What is your view on evolution?
03:00It's a study of how life diversifies over time. It's a very broad, overreaching part of the biological sciences.
03:08More so than that, it's really the framework that unites biology.
03:13Have you spoken with people who are scientists who also believe in creationism? And how has that conversation gone?
03:20I've not really run into somebody who is a really active, practicing, publishing scientist who is also a young earth
03:26creationist.
03:27They have been told, this is what you should believe. They have read, this is what you should believe.
03:32What they are scared about is evolution and anything that, to them, would threaten their faith.
03:40So when did the clash between science and religion in the United States really begin?
03:48Time for a State of Grace lightning round.
03:51Pre-Industrial Revolution, it was easy to view the world as timeless, eternal, and unchanging.
03:56Nobody had phones, there was no promise of tomorrow, and people were living in the now.
03:59But the 1800s were all about exploration and scientific discovery, baby.
04:04And the gag of the season came when Charles Darwin published On the Origin of Species and introduced the theory
04:09of evolution to the world.
04:10The response from the Christian community was largely, not great.
04:13Darwin's theory directly contradicted church teachings on creation and challenged God's sovereignty.
04:18So around the turn of the 20th century, a guy named William Jennings Bryan launched a full-fledged crusade against
04:23evolution.
04:24This famously led to the Scopes trial, in which a Tennessee teacher, John Scopes, broke what was then state law
04:30by teaching evolution in a public school.
04:32Scopes lost the ruling, but public opinion turned quickly in favor of evolution.
04:36Since then, the evolution versus creationism debate has returned to trial numerous times.
04:40The common denominator in all these cases is that teaching evolution somehow undermines the power of God.
04:49Despite the legal rulings and scientific evidence supporting evolution, 40% of Americans still believe in creationism.
04:56It's really hard for me to wrap my mind around that statistic, so it's time to put a face to
05:00the numbers.
05:01My name is William James Harreth, but my friends call me Willie.
05:05Yay!
05:05You can call me Willie.
05:06You gesture to me, I'm taking the letters.
05:07That's right.
05:08Okay, good.
05:08You're my friend.
05:09Willie is a husband, father, evangelist, and author of the book What is Evolution?
05:14Which argues that there is no scientifically agreed upon definition of evolution, making it unlawful to be taught in public
05:21schools.
05:22I believe that the deep questions in life are extremely important.
05:25And one of the biggest ones is how did we get here?
05:28How did we get here?
05:29Yes.
05:30How did we get here?
05:31How did we get here?
05:32How did we get here?
05:33You gotta answer it.
05:34I don't know.
05:35What do you think, man?
05:36Well, pop culture said that evolution is true, and I went to college.
05:40Like, I'm no dummy.
05:41So I just kind of thought that maybe God kind of used evolution until I started getting questions from a
05:49lot of my students.
05:50So I thought, I need to go on a quest.
05:52I need to start reading about this and trying to figure out what it is.
05:55I discovered that it is completely undefined, unscientific, and unlawful to be taught in public school.
06:01But there are definitions online.
06:03Like, in preparation for this episode, like, I found many definitions for evolution.
06:07Yeah.
06:08Oh, there's totally definitions for evolution, but they conflict.
06:12Every time I would study evolution, it's almost an explanation of saying, hey, listen, this is how everything came into
06:18being in the absence of a creator God.
06:21And so I wasn't seeing that symmetry that I was hoping for.
06:25I was hoping God was in control of this evolutionary fact.
06:28But then I started realizing that, no, there's no room for God in evolution.
06:33It is natural selection, right?
06:36It's not supernatural selection.
06:38And God...
06:38Although that would be amazing.
06:40That would be cool.
06:41That would be like, pfft, unicorns.
06:43Evolution can't tell us how species emerge into existence.
06:46Evolution can't tell us what the origin of life is.
06:49Evolution can't tell us how the universe came into existence.
06:53And the only thing that makes sense is that there is something outside of the situation.
07:00So what does it look like when a biblical account of human history is treated with greater reverence than scientific
07:06discovery?
07:08Right now we are headed to the Creation and Earth History Museum.
07:11And it is dedicated to the biblical account of earth, science, and history.
07:16They asked that we not film and bring cameras, which of course we're going to respect.
07:21It's weird.
07:22It feels a bit like a spy mission.
07:24Definitely a difference between our welcome at the Natural History Museum versus this.
07:30I am really excited to go, look around, see what sort of information they have to offer.
07:36I have no idea what to expect.
07:52Whew.
07:57That was...
08:00That was a thing.
08:01I have a lot to process.
08:03I really appreciated the transparency of the museum.
08:07You know, you walk in and you immediately know that this is a biblically-based perspective.
08:13A literal, biblical interpretation of a story of creation.
08:18So, you know, we got the flood, the Tower of Babel, Adam and Eve, the six-day creation, and it's
08:26all presented there.
08:28So, in that sense, it's nice that it's transparent.
08:32You kind of know immediately what you're getting into.
08:35They really hammer home that evolution is not consistent with a Christian belief system.
08:42It felt very fear-based.
08:45And it was very much about disproving evolution.
08:48And I didn't get the sense when we were going through the Natural History Museum.
08:53At any point in time, did they even bring up the creation story?
08:57Why would they?
08:58They don't need to.
08:59Because their theory holds up to inspection.
09:01Do you think it's possible to be a Christian and also believe in evolution?
09:06I think that it's possible because I did it.
09:08I was a Christian that believed in evolution.
09:10I think it is in conflict with Proverbs 13, 5.
09:15It says that the righteous hate what is false.
09:18Ironically, this same verse might be said by a Christian explaining the validity of evolution.
09:23How do you make sense of the creation story in Christianity and then also evolution?
09:29A way to rephrase that question is, do I interpret the Bible literally?
09:34Yes.
09:35And I don't.
09:36Okay.
09:36Most theologians don't.
09:39Your faith, your nationality, your gender, your race, this is kind of who you are.
09:44Science is more of what you do.
09:45So what's at stake when science and religion are pit against each other?
09:49Both sides of the argument seem to clash in the classroom.
09:52So I guess it's time to go back to school.
09:55Do you remember learning about evolution?
09:57When evolution was brought up, it was either to mock it or to call it evil,
10:03but there was never much information given about it.
10:07I visited the classroom of Dr. Donna Nofziger,
10:09a molecular biologist and associate professor of biology here at Pepperdine University.
10:16When did you really start learning about what evolution is?
10:21It really was on my own that I started diving deep because I knew I wanted to be a scientist.
10:26And I said, okay, I'm not going to be fearful anymore.
10:29So I started reading books and reading books and reading books.
10:31But I did it all in secret because I thought I was a bad Christian.
10:35I still remember sitting on the couch and coming to the point in all this study
10:39and just feeling the weight of evidence, the evidence.
10:42I did not want to accept it, frankly.
10:44It was so overwhelming.
10:46What was some of the evidence that stuck out to you?
10:49I remember coming to this realization that in order for evolution,
10:53this theory of evolution not to be true or have it to be fraudulent,
10:57chemists would have to be wrong.
10:59Physicists would have to be wrong.
11:01Biologists would have to be wrong.
11:02All these people in disciplines for decades and decades and decades,
11:07they'd all have to be wrong.
11:08I just remember everything just clicking into place.
11:11And then I waited for my faith.
11:13And then I'm saying, oh, I'm still a Christian.
11:15I still love Jesus.
11:16One of the mottos at my university is,
11:19the truth has nothing to fear from inspection.
11:21Once I accepted and started understanding evolution,
11:24I understand God's love for his creation a lot more.
11:27I understand grace a lot more.
11:29I understand the awesomeness of God's power a lot more.
11:31It is profound and beautiful.
11:34Yeah, I feel like you're blowing my mind right now.
11:36So how did we all get to be on this rock,
11:38flying through space?
11:40And what does it all mean?
11:41Science offers us a lot of explanations and evidence about our creation.
11:45But the belief in a divine creator is really an unknown variable.
11:49I grew up in a Presbyterian home.
11:51I'm practicing Christian today.
11:52I've never seen any reason for an incompatibility between science and faith.
11:56The boundaries drawn between God and science,
11:59or some combination of the two,
12:01will look different from person to person.
12:03But when we allow this debate to shut down conversations,
12:07we limit our potential to understand each other,
12:09and this flying rock we're on, a little more deeply.