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In Episode 15 of Overlap, we discussed, from the perspective of the Global South, the elections in Brazil and their impact on Latin America and the world. teleSUR
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00:03Hello and welcome to one more episode of Overlap. This is Belen de los Santos. I am from Brazil
00:09right now and that has to do with what we are going to talk right now. I'm from China. Tianjiang,
00:15thank you so much for joining us once again. Yeah, hello everyone. Hello Belen. It's a pleasure to
00:22be here once again and I was saying right now we're doing this conversation from across the
00:28world always from Latin America here and in particular today we are from Brazil because
00:34we are talking about one election that is meant to be decisive for the country, for the region and
00:41probably for the global south. That's what we'll be talking about. It is election month in Brazil.
00:47Tianjiang, I know you've been following it as well. We have just come from a first round and we're going
00:53into the runoff that is going to take place on October 25th. So tell me a little bit how like
01:02what news from Brazil are getting to China. Is this something that they're following over there
01:09and then I'll let you know a little bit of how these days have been and what we know after
01:14the
01:15first round and going into the runoff. Yeah, sure. We know that many countries in South America have
01:22shifted sharply to the right over the past few years. So Brazil this year is definitely attracting
01:30a lot of attention in China as well. So many people here we are like closely watching that if Brazil
01:39is
01:39also going to follow the political trajectory to the right. So now the trend in the election isn't that
01:49surprising to us I would say because given the broader economic about environment we are facing with the
01:57growth slowing and even we are facing the possibility of an economic downturn. So I think many Chinese
02:07people we are not that surprised by the results from the first round but most people have a major question
02:17question that is what is exactly wrong with the Brazilian left. Why has it been unable to maintain
02:26popular support over the long term because if the left-wing party have genuinely improved people's living
02:33standards why are many people unwilling to vote for Lula this time. So I don't know much about the
02:41Brazilian politics but I wonder whether the electoral politics in Brazil or perhaps in South America more broadly
02:51follows the similar trend somewhat in somewhat to those in the US because like in the United States like during
03:00the
03:01Democratic administration the Democrats claim that they care about the rights of minority groups but in practice they
03:11haven't made people's lives better. In fact many people have seen their life is getting worse so it seems quite
03:19natural that they would turn to the opposition. So after Trump came into power he also claimed that he could
03:27improve
03:28ordinary American people's lives but in reality they are just worse off. So American voters are now disappointed with
03:35Trump as well again and with the midterm election coming up later this year in November so Trump is facing
03:44considerable political pressure again so ultimately regardless of which party is in power neither seems to
03:53able to improve people's lives effectively and sustainably so voters end up swinging back and forth and placing their hopes
04:04in
04:04the opposition but once the opposition but once the opposition takes office it soon disappoints the people again so the
04:11cycle
04:12just continues and continues and endlessly so my question this time is like what the issues matters most to
04:20Brazilian voters at this time point so which issues have the greatest influence on how they vote so which might
04:30help us to understand the situation on the ground in Brazil. Well that is actually not only a very
04:36important question but also a very key question to understand and I think that would help us understand not
04:42only what is happening in Brazil but as you were saying we need to see this election in a broader
04:48context that has to
04:49do with the entire region. So I'll back up for a minute right now and just go to what we
04:57know so far
04:57about the election so we can loop in the audience on what we are talking about and and then go
05:03straight
05:03into those key points Tianjiang regarding what this all means and how we can understand this trajectory also
05:11there's so much to talk about about what is going on right now and what we can expect for October
05:1725th the
05:19run-up so uh Brazilian election being debated between Lula da Silva as you just said um he's going for
05:27his
05:28one of the main leaders here in Latin America he has been part of the great leftist wave in the
05:36region in the
05:37first part of the 21st century he really marks that leading trend in the region so it's one of the
05:45key figures
05:45he's going into his fourth term or running for his fourth term
05:50and that is one thing to keep in mind he is coming from this ruling term so he is
05:57incumbent president right now so I think that has to do
06:01when we're going to analyze the position that he is arriving to this election in and on the other side
06:07we have Flavio Bolsonaro Bolsonaro is already a known name in the political scene he is the son
06:16of Jair Bolsonaro who was president before this term of Lula da Silva from the far right
06:23from this trend of being an outsider politician who comes into power with direct alignment and I think
06:32this is the key to understand this shift to the far right that the entire continent is experiencing or
06:40at least is dealing with it's not only far right in terms of the conservative ideology and the measures
06:50in terms of the economy for example but also for Latin America in particular this far right government's
07:00complete and direct alignment with the United States in direct alignment with the US objectives for the
07:11Latin American region particularly in this term of Donald Trump so Jair Bolsonaro was the president of
07:19Brazil a term before this one that we are in right now he actually run for the re-election
07:27in 2022 he lost that run to Lula da Silva and he then led a coup attempt that ended with
07:37an attack on
07:38January of 2023 against the main government entities and for that coup attempt he is right now in prison he
07:48has
07:48been judged for those actions and now it's his son one of his sons Flavio Bolsonaro who is now running
07:57for presidency so what we saw on October 4th the first round of the Brazilian election was those two
08:04projects very dissimilar projects right so we are seeing far right complete alignment with the US on Flavio
08:12Bolsonaro's part and the leading figure for Latin American integration and a leftist perspective in
08:20terms of targeting inequality in the region with Lula da Silva and in that the polls were showing a very
08:29close race and the ending result was Flavio Bolsonaro in the lead with 47 percent and Lula da Silva afterwards
08:39with 45 that meant both of them went into a runoff and that runoff will take place on October 25th
08:47so
08:48that is a little bit off the scene it's been very hectic weeks in the meantime with a lot of
08:53campaigning
08:54painting so Tian Cheng you were just pointing on such an important point right a lot of people were
09:01expecting well not just people the polls were predicting that Lula da Silva would be in the uh in
09:08the lead in this first term in this first round and also throughout the year we've seen that Flavio
09:15Bolsonaro in the trends in the polls he was getting closer and closer and actually in the day of the
09:21election he came in in the lead that puts him in a very a good position in order to win
09:27the runoff so
09:28that is the perspective that we're looking at and so the great question is what you were saying
09:36how do we explain that and what happened to the Brazilian left or leftist coalition that ended up in
09:45second place I think there is a lot of things to to keep in mind and we can go like
09:51one by one but one of
09:53them is the the state of the different situations that the global south and particularly Latin American
10:02countries are going through right now with a growing climate of uncertainty in terms of economic values in
10:13terms of rising insecurity there's a number of structural challenges that are particularly hitting Latin
10:23America and particularly hitting the countries and the models that the United States with the impact that
10:31it has over the region the projects that they are not willing to favor so to say no so let
10:37so the United States
10:38is working this game of enemies and alliances and using all its power to control that so of course they
10:48have decided that the project of Lula da Silva does not
10:53does not mean their best ally and that a Bolsonaro project would be
10:58much better for their interests and Brazil is stuck in that dealing with those structural challenges with the impact it
11:07has for their population
11:08and also we need to understand that whenever you have this uncertainty in terms of also the impact it has
11:17on population and the economy
11:18the ruling government has more to respond for so it's easier with growing uncertainty we saw it in the pandemic
11:26for example
11:27that a population that a population will be more willing to vote for quote-unquote change
11:34even if the history and track records show that actually the project is giving economic benefits if that is not
11:43felt
11:43directly on some sectors of the population and you add on communication manipulation the interference of
11:51the US and social media and you'll have a combination of an important sector of the population betting on a
12:00model
12:01that has to do that is offering this quick results for long-standing challenges
12:09that we actually know or have proof that they will not deliver those results but that is having an effect
12:17on the population does that make sense
12:19I can totally understand how people tend to blame everything on the ruling party and once they get dissatisfied
12:31they will just turn to the opposite immediately even if that sometimes they even they know that the opposition is
12:41not going to deliver anything either
12:43but they just don't have a better choice
12:47most of the time the people the voters just facing a bad option and an even worse option
12:54so that's what happened that's what we're seeing in the US and in the Europe and in a lot of
13:00in most of the countries in Latin America
13:03so I was wondering like how do you see the election results going to impact Brazil internationally
13:11especially like especially like in terms of the Brazil's relations with China and also its cooperation
13:18within the BRICS because we know that the Lula put a lot of
13:23emphasis on the cooperation within BRICS and
13:27multilateral diplomacy and if
13:31Bolsonaro were elected I think he would just turn to the
13:36opposite direction so how do you think that will impact the
13:40diplomatic relations and also all these external relations of Brazil
13:48of course
13:49again I think that that is one of the key in terms of the international scene
13:54it's one of the things that people are most looking forward to understand what this means
14:01so we know that let's put this in context Brazil is the largest economy of the region
14:08whatever Brazil decides as an economic and political model will sort of shape also
14:15that's why we're always saying the size of election for the country and for the region because
14:20it is a leading actor in terms of how the entire continent relates to the rest of the world
14:27having a Brazil that is also a leading actor in the BRICS groups for example has always been
14:36an important part of understanding
14:40this
14:42transition to a multipolar world or at least the growing scene of having other actors other than the
14:50United States just dominating what happens to the region in terms of commerce in terms of security in
14:57terms of the natural resources so of course if you have the BRICS groups with China as a very important
15:05partner and Brazil also leading an important voice within that group and that group is the one
15:13that is sort of competing with the possibility of multilateralism and just thinking about global governance
15:23with the United States then it is very important it is a very important asset for the region
15:29if we would change into a Brazil that maybe does not leave the group that is what happened with the
15:38presidency of Jair Bolsonaro Bolsonaro father right he did not leave the group we need to understand
15:45that even if these people speak a big game of doing things there's a lot of not only bureaucratic
15:53um aspects to keep in mind but also a lot of business opportunities negotiation
16:00a lot of process within the society is not so simple to break off relations that are at the base
16:08of a lot of the
16:09economic development for a country for example but
16:13it could be a Brazil that does not leave the entire group but completely like sort of
16:20puts it in the back burner and as a not priority and particularly does not participate in
16:28any initiative that has to do with countering the United States influence and at the same time
16:35aligning completely with all the projects that the United States is leading right now in the region in
16:44terms of coordination of security for example in terms of coordination coordination and control right
16:49of security of resources so if that were the case we would definitely be
16:56seeing like the last turn we've already seen it with Argentina with Ecuador with Colombia with Chile so
17:04aside from Mexico that's the other big power that is so sort of disputing that sovereign relation with
17:12the United States the shift in Brazil would be
17:14very important in those terms so maybe not a complete withdrawal from the group but
17:22not being a leading voice in that multipolar world as well right and the same we could say
17:29for China and now I'll ask you like in terms of the commercial aspect what is the perspective that China
17:36is
17:36having over this election but China is the main commercial partner for Brazil even more important
17:45than the United States the United States with the Trump administration and the Monroe Doctrine 2.0
17:53has this objective of strengthening its position in the region because it's seeing China as a growing
18:01opponent in that territory and they understand that they need to strengthen their control that they
18:07cannot be a second to China in Latin America in particular in Brazil that is the case they are
18:14second to China right now so can Brazil cut ties with China altogether or any other economy well no because
18:23it is
18:23the main partner there's a lot of economic interest Jair Bolsonaro couldn't do it because he also faced the reaction
18:30of
18:30of course the Brazilian sectors that are benefiting from the commerce with China but they can
18:38start shifting and trying to prioritize the United States as a partner particularly in the aspects that
18:46the United States is prioritizing right now right rare earths key natural resources the key industries that
18:56the United States wants to exploit so we could see that shift is China worried about this uh how are
19:04they
19:04following following this particular we've been talking about something similar for many other countries
19:09right how can China react to this more aggressive policy of the United States trying to take control of Latin
19:18America as a region but Brazil is a particularly important case in that in that scenario so what do you
19:27think
19:27in that in that sense yeah I think I totally agree with uh whether just analyze about the the possible
19:38consequences of the election I'm not too worried about this because as you just said that China and Brazil
19:47have extensive trade and economic ties uh even if uh Bolsonaro were elected uh Brazil might move closer to
19:57the Trump administration and shift some of its priorities uh regarding relations with China and cooperation
20:06within BRICS however it would not necessarily mean that Brazil would distance itself from China since it has
20:16such strong economic interests in the Chinese markets uh such as in agricultural in mining and other export
20:26industries so even if uh Bolsonaro were elected he wouldn't be that foolish enough to deliberately undermine economic
20:38relations with China it would only harm Brazil's own interests so maybe we can look at uh Milley's Argentina
20:47as example that Milley has used a lot of tough words towards China uh before he get elected but once
20:56he took office he has largely maintained economic ties with China and continued doing business with China
21:04all the time uh politically he hasn't broken ties with China he even hasn't withdrawn from the uh two
21:13countries uh strategic partnership and in August this year China and Argentina even renewed the currency swap
21:23agreement agreement so I think uh the South American leaders they are not false even from a very pragmatic
21:32perspective maintaining good relations with China would also give them more leverage when they negotiate with
21:42the U.S. so I don't think the outcome of the election would have a major impact on on China
21:49-Brazil relations uh
21:51regardless of who wins in the end uh the bigger impact would likely be maybe be felt within Brazil itself
22:00yeah there will certainly be more pressure to break cooperation in the future but these are
22:09the risks we should be prepared for all the time these political uncertainty uh including the changes of
22:18government through elections every four years has always been a risk for BRICS member countries so we have
22:26seen this happen before in the past uh many times so we all we can do is to is to
22:33face these challenges
22:35and uh we deal these uncertainties with uh some predictions and with some uh work to do and we just
22:44deal with
22:44them as they come yeah it actually happened with Argentina um when when Milet took office but it was a
22:52different
22:52situation because Argentina had just been accepted into the BRICS group uh I think like a month or something
23:00before Milet took office and of course at the moment he took office he said that he was not accepting
23:08the
23:08invitation and not joining the group of course that is a completely different situation from Brazil because
23:13they were just it was the initiative of joining there was a lot of possibility there was a lot of
23:19discussion but there weren't any already structured plans of integration so he could opt out right and and
23:27it's an option that will probably mark Argentina for the years to come because it's not something it proved
23:34exactly what you were saying that it's always a risk for the BRICS groups to uh let a member in
23:40that will
23:41completely change 180 uh when an election shifts right Brazil as a major power in the bloc is also
23:53much more linked to that group what we could see is something like um what we were saying before right
24:01this
24:01just cutting back on its participation particularly on key aspects of the group that could push back
24:09against the United States and I also think that we do need to consider that this presidency or this next
24:17term whoever it goes to it is going to happen on a different context in terms of Latin America and
24:28its
24:28relation to the United States different to for example the first presidency of Jair Bolsonaro
24:33so I think that we need to keep in mind because when Jair Bolsonaro had this sort of more um
24:41softer
24:42approach even though he said he would do a lot of things he did not leave the group he did
24:46not cut ties
24:47with China what you were saying was completely I completely agree with it at the end of the day it
24:53is in the
24:53the benefit of Brazil to be able to negotiate with both powers that has been the key approach of
25:01President Lula da Silva in this case but right now the United States is pushing on a much more aggressive
25:11agenda in trying to directly impose what they need to do to this puppet uh governments of the far right
25:22because they truly are it's not just a way of of undermining the power they have direct links
25:29they have almost no political history but for being backed by the United States um they have links to
25:38international crime and the international networks that have been structured in order to favor this uh new
25:45governments in Argentina in Ecuador in Colombia in Bolivia right now and so what we need to
25:54see and question ourselves is even if it's in the best benefit of Brazil to negotiate with both
26:00is the United States in this more aggressive sense going to allow for that because the United States is
26:06pushing harder and harder even on this government that are completely aligned and they will say yes to
26:12anything they are asking more and more they are even asking a lot of things that go against the
26:19country's own interests and that is the great dilemma um for example to stop investment opportunities from
26:27China um in Peru this was a great uh conversation or or discussion in the last tour that US Secretary
26:37of
26:38State Marco Rubio had because Peru was at the same time with a far-right government that wants to align
26:46with the United States but has a lot of investment projects from China so they are a little bit torn
26:51and
26:51the United States is pushing them on cutting all of those projects so as we said the the first thing
26:59we also need
26:59to keep in mind that this is a different scene but Tian Zheng I wanted to bring this back a
27:06little bit to
27:07this campaign that is going because we are analyzing what would happen if Lula da Silva continues in power
27:15or if Flavio Bolsonaro takes power um it is true that there is a lead for the far-right project
27:22right now
27:22because they uh ended up first in the first round let's recall that now they're going to a run-off
27:29and
27:30even a single boat will define that run that presidency so and and it's expected to be a very very
27:37close
27:38race in 2022 when Lula da Silva won the presidency the difference was also like minimum so we are going
27:47to see a very close race right now we have a minimum difference as well the last there's been a
27:54couple
27:54of the most important relevant polls that have come out in the last few days are putting them with two
28:03points difference with Bolsonaro in the lead and the two-point margin of error so that is a technical
28:10tie so they're very very close but of course analysts are saying Bolsonaro is in the lead and he's also
28:18has what he has as an advantage is that a lot of the third party um leaders of that were
28:26other third
28:27options in the first round they have expressed support for him so if Bolsonaro was first and Lula was
28:34second the third fourth and fifth option have mostly um expressed support for Flavio Bolsonaro right so that
28:46would be one of the of his advantages if he could gain all of those extra votes then he would
28:54maintain
28:54that lead and win the run-off but to Lula da Silva's advantage we've seen an a crazy amount of
29:03activity on
29:04his campaign during the past days if you go out into the streets we're here in Rio de Janeiro we're
29:10talking to our colleagues in Sao Paulo the campaign is very very active on different fronts it's active
29:17on the streets with massive mobilizations it's active on announcing different measures and managing to get
29:26a lot of political engagement just a couple of days ago they were able to approve
29:33a constitutional amendment to lower the weekly working hours with no pay cut so a great benefit
29:42to workers this has been a demand for decades and they managed to approve that right now because there
29:50was so much pressure on the street with people going out and participating in great mobilizations even
29:57Flavio Bolsonaro who was completely against this he's completely far right and liberal he's against
30:04this worker benefits he's actually in favor of individual negotiation and even he had to come out
30:12and say he would support the measure because the pressure from the people was so much and the trends if
30:19we look at
30:19the polls the trends are showing that they are getting closer together so so before Lula in the first
30:28beginning of the year Lula was in the lead and Flavio Bolsonaro was getting closer and closer and closer he
30:34ended up on top right in the first round but now Flavio was in the lead and Lula Silva is
30:40getting closer and
30:41closer and there's a lot of mobilization I think that is something to keep in mind in terms of what
30:47comes next because that could either mean that they uh in here they're in Brazil they're saying
30:54that they're going to turn around that is one of the of the main slogans turning it around we're turning
31:00it around that could happen it is very difficult very very difficult it would be a first in the history
31:08of
31:08of this democracy at least for the past decades but even if they don't I think that it is very
31:16important to see that we'd be going into a far-right government with an important amount of mobilization
31:25with an important um political activity with with a movement willing to defend everything that has been
31:33built it is not the same as losing government and being completely disarticulated so that also shapes
31:41what happens in the region and that is something that we are seeing we have great mobilizations also
31:47in Argentina in Colombia right now I think that on this we're looking at governments and elections but
31:53also on the streets that project of the United States taking like complete control over the region is
32:01being debated and that can happen if the population sort of like agree or are disciplined enough
32:10in that project so the fact that we're seeing such a response from the Brazilian movement I think is
32:17also very important and we need to keep in mind it is a very very very polarized society right now
32:25in
32:26Brazil in Latin America across the world in the United States as you were just mentioning right now uh Tianjiang
32:33so it is sort of like something that has been like cut in half so even if one side wins
32:41this is very important
32:42one side's win does not mean complete control of over that society it does not mean that that other
32:50half of the country is going to completely comply completely align and it not it's not going to
32:56disappear same happened with the last election right Lula won by a minimum margin
33:02Bolsonaroism tried a coup attempt and then they just continue their mobilization and now they're in the lead
33:09so it's a continent that is shifting to the far right yes but it's also a continent that is in
33:16in clear like
33:17dispute of what is happening and the United States is also in dispute of what is happening so I think
33:22that we need to look at some years that are coming in terms of there could be more changes are
33:30you seeing
33:31this because I'm always thinking about the perspective from China and thinking it seems so stable right the
33:38political system being different the perspectives being different from China it has this capacity of
33:45stability in a political term and and that gives of course the capacity of better planning and and
33:53longer term thinking so how does this shifting from the Latin American or American in general perspective
34:03how does it come through in China what do you think I think the we spend a lot of time
34:11to
34:11talking about like how the election was going on and how it would turn out to be and lots of
34:19that analysis and predictions so I think uh every time I talk about the this kind of like electoral
34:27politics in western countries or in South American countries I feel that the biggest problem facing these
34:36countries isn't how elections will affect their foreign policies their domestic policies or the
34:46future of the country the future of the world the real problem is that I feel like a lot of
34:51countries they
34:52are trapped in this endless cycle of electoral politics so yeah I remember I read some like very
35:02uh well-known novels written by the some of the most famous uh writers from Latin America so you can
35:10feel
35:10that and this trap the sand you can feel the sense of that in their novels so looking at the
35:16its history over
35:17all these years I think we can uh I will draw a safe conclusion that this particular kind of democracy
35:25doesn't work for a lot of countries like every four years there's another election uh costing enormous amounts
35:36of time energy and money but whoever gets elected uh people are not better off every four years
35:45it's just a different group of it is taking terms to exploiting ordinary people and ordinary people are just
35:55forced to uh choose between a bad option and even worse option so I've seen some Brazilian uh said online
36:05that they they've completely uh lost face in this political system and I see the same words said by uh
36:14Americans also said by uh some uh Europeans so they feel like no matter who they are vote for nothing
36:22really
36:22changed so and this system of uh electoral politics has already become a highly sophisticated tool for
36:32these interest groups to manipulate public opinions just as you said that even the US is not only like
36:40post influence on the own Americas it can also like exert significant influence on Latin American people
36:48is sometimes they even just like manipulate the election results so it happens I would say like almost
36:56everywhere uh who choose these kind of uh electoral politics system so the real question is that when
37:05when will Brazil be able to break out of this cycle I'm certainly not talking about going back to
37:12military rule but I mean like finding a way out of this endless cycle of elections that may truly allow
37:20the
37:21country to move towards to the goal of development and prosperity so to me I think that's when I can
37:30see
37:30Brazil can truly move forward and it's not only for Brazil I think it only works for it can be
37:38a question for
37:39uh most of the countries in Dati America and I'm not sure if you have noticed the the heated debate
37:47between uh some Chinese and Brazil netizens online
37:52recently uh on x and also other social media platform and that's the electoral politics is also uh one of
38:03the hottest topics they are talking about
38:06and I think some maybe China's lessons is that we are not going to lecture other countries to uh follow
38:15a certain path or follow a certain path of prosperity
38:18or we are not going to uh lecture other countries to uh to copy us but we believe that every
38:27country has its own
38:28um certain national conditions and they have to look for their own way forward but China is more than willing
38:38to share its its development experiences
38:42with Brazil and with other global south uh country partners and no matter is in in terms of uh institution
38:50uh the economy
38:52the science and technology or in other areas and I think that's maybe one of the areas that these the
39:00two countries can work more
39:02on the future like this kind of communication and exchange of views not only on the top level but also
39:11uh just between
39:12the ordinary people among the ordinary people they can just connect online and share their uh experiences of uh living
39:20in each other's countries so that maybe may bring some inspirations to the Brazilian people I think that
39:28that exchange is so key well it has a lot to do with what we do like in trying to
39:34exchange points of view from one
39:37corner and the other of the world right and a lot of that discourse online I think that we're seeing
39:44more
39:45and more we've talked about this when we're talking about social networks um it gives us the appearance of
39:53broader communication and being able to reach distant realities and being able to exchange experience and
39:59and it does work like that in some cases it is if it's very directed at that objective but also
40:07social networks are
40:08actually working in terms of fostering stereotypes and reproducing preconceived notions of what the other
40:17is doing what the other has like as a benefit or not different to mine it is actually being used
40:24to
40:26to foster division really other than community and communion and we are seeing that more and more
40:33shape this very polarized societies and also cut the possibilities of a really uh beneficial exchange
40:42we are seeing it for example and it's been very clear with how western media tends to portray
40:50china and and how social media reproduces those stereotypes as well so i can imagine how uh citizens like
41:00in that online exchange could be like being having heated discussions instead of like a true exchange of what
41:10is happening in one place or the other i also think talking about social networks and and their impact
41:18very much related to how these democracies are working right now it's a like a it's a new phase of
41:24this
41:25liberal democracies ones that we are seeing displayed right now like with full force and i think it is one
41:33of
41:33the driving factors of something that you were just saying and i think that it's crucial to understand of course
41:39we do not have the answers um but certainly the democracies as as they are right now in latin america
41:47are having structural problems and are not being able to fulfill the role of truly choosing uh representation
41:57for the people um in in a lot of different aspects and going back to your initial question that i
42:05think is so key
42:07what happened to the left and why if the numbers are okay if the because economic numbers in brazil
42:14compared to the region are pretty good actually if the numbers are okay if the social benefits were
42:20better in one than the other if the economic model is working why does the government lose that support
42:30i think that that is also linked to this structural just lose the faith that you were mentioning in
42:39terms of the system as a whole the system the electoral system is being um it's losing the faith the
42:47respect of a lot of the people because it has so many problems in terms of addressing the real needs
42:54of a lot of the population let's recall that latin america is the most unequal continent in the world
43:01so there is a lot of social issues to address and for different reasons there's a structural problem and
43:08that is being um heightened more and more and that is bringing more dissatisfaction with
43:19governance in general and i think the great challenge is to see how the left in this case can
43:28rethink its role in these democracies in its connection to the territories to the people
43:35um because we are seeing this loss of faith in institutionality in general liberal institutionality
43:42the liberal democracies the heightened interference of different mechanisms so much in the past years
43:52i i think that if we look at the elections in the past one two three years in latin america
43:57they've all
43:58had problems in terms of direct u.s interference media interference and social media in particular
44:05actually in the past days just as an example the electoral tribunal of brazil had to have a meeting
44:15with meta authorities meta the the ai uh company actually the big tech company that includes ai right that
44:25runs whatsapp runs facebook they have to meet with those authorities because they were having claims
44:31that their artificial intelligence was allowing users to generate flavia bolsonaro's content but not lula
44:40the silva's content if they went into the ai and asked for generated image for the campaign of lula the
44:47silva
44:48it would say i can't do that but i can give you this and it would provide one of flavia
44:54bolsonaro
44:55so that is happening right now it's not just social media talk actually the authorities of the electoral
45:02tribunal had to call into this um company that is a transnational company that was directly
45:10interfering and that was not even the the only item it's just the most recent and most obvious one so
45:17with this you have a an electoral system a democratic system that is always favoring a certain
45:24types of elites that is also much more vulnerable to transnational interest that is also much more vulnerable
45:30to this uh media and social media um companies that are so fundamental to the campaigns right now
45:40that wasn't like that 10 years ago 20 years ago that a transnational company had so much
45:47impact in what happened in an election so that's a whole sovereign discussion altogether that is
45:54something that is directly affecting the projects on the left and that is one of the key challenges
45:59there are some indicators of what could happen what could come next for example even if the major project
46:06of the workers party ended up second in the first round there were some delegates and candidates in specific regions
46:14very young very well versed in social media but also very connected to territories to their specific populations
46:23not institutional broad connection like truly connected and they were among the most voted ever
46:31and that is a new form of doing politics that is being born and actually what was the first thing
46:38that lula
46:39do silva did when after the first round he called them all a lot of these were very very young
46:45kids we have like
46:45kids that are almost over 20 leading huge campaigns he called them all
46:51saying okay this is where the new uh power is let's do this together and that gave a great uh
46:59push to the campaign
47:01so all of these changes are happening right now and i think that whatever happens on october 25th will
47:09define the next years but also this new politics that you were just talking about is being shaped right now
47:16the question is are we going to find a way to to overcome these challenges
47:23before we completely lose all our sovereignty and all our natural resources to the u.s um imperialistic model
47:31that is one of the debates right now in latin america
47:36yeah so that's definitely a major challenge we are facing now and it's not only
47:43for brazil it's also for the whole world uh so the ai technology is like so firmly controlled by
47:53these tech giants and they are use it very precisely to shape people's minds and
48:03that's also why i see the recent exchange between chinese and brazilian netizens are a very rare and
48:11positive examples uh even if there are still a lot of misunderstanding going on and some of
48:18some like very uh extreme opinions they just tend to go viral and stand out and check attentions
48:25but it's still a direct talk between ordinary people from these two countries and it's not uh it didn't
48:34get a lot of uh interference by uh these uh tech giants by the platform uh that's maybe the the
48:44auto
48:44translation maybe one of the few good things elon musk has done so that is correct so i wish that
48:53uh maybe
48:55we will have the opportunity opportunities to see uh these kind of uh interactions uh more in the future
49:05uh because before these that china and brazil are literally on the opposite sides of the world and
49:12so we know so little about each other and the only thing we know maybe is that the the football
49:20and
49:22so after these uh heated debates uh during the past few weeks and people are getting no more about
49:30each other and even if like there are still some uh stereotype that uh some chinese people may think
49:36that uh the some the brazilian people they are just like so addicted to drugs and they are supports legalizing
49:44drugs so
49:45we kind of like believe that these people are so crazy but i don't think these uh extreme views can
49:51represent what most brazilian people actually think and i think more and more chinese people they are
49:59getting to understand more about how complicated the drug problem is in brazil so because for us we cannot
50:09it's it's kind of hard for us to imagine how these uh drug cartels they have been deeply rooted in
50:17brazilian society for decades and also how close the u.s is and the u.s has constantly playing played
50:26a role
50:26in shaping the situation over the years so when some brazilian people they criticize the government's war on
50:35drugs they are not actually mean they support drug or drug trafficking they are just saying that these
50:42crackdowns by the authorities they only hurt the ordinary people but they are kind of that came in the
50:50name of protecting people under the name of war on drugs so uh i think uh through the communication
50:58like chinese people are getting to know more about the uh complex uh situation and that's one of the
51:07bright side i can see and also in terms of the you just say that the the u.s is
51:13kind of like putting
51:15a more and more aggressive way uh internationally and it also happens at home that even the the the u
51:23.s
51:23citizens they are also facing uh tremendous pressures like the the protests are everywhere at home in the
51:33u.s and also there are like the ice is everywhere so a lot of people feel like they are
51:39at risk anytime
51:40and so in the short term they will put all of us under greater pressure but maybe in the long
51:48term it could
51:50also be a sign that uh the u.s is uh accelerating its own decline that's why it just it
51:59just becomes so
52:00urgent for washington to find ways to shift all these tensions outwards and to intensify its exploitation
52:10of other countries so the latin american countries that become the closest the closest sacrifice they can
52:18fight for as they did uh in the in history so we can see both sides uh of the story
52:27and there's still
52:29some something we can we can hope for definitely and with the elections midterm elections in the u.s
52:36also coming up i think maybe that will be the focus of our next conversation but i completely agree with
52:42what you were saying and about the direct connection i was thinking um so you were highlighting right so
52:50we know so little about each other and at the same time we were saying it's the first commercial
52:56partner like how crazy it is that the relationship between brazil and china for example is so fundamental
53:03to the livelihood of so many people but still culturally and personally we understand so little
53:11about each other and of course those exchanges are super powerful they they have a great
53:19capacity of opening a window over there if they can be done in a direct way and with no interference
53:27i
53:27completely think that the united states in transnational interest they are trying to run that interference they
53:34are trying to um hinder those possibilities because it is to their own detriment so definitely there's
53:42something there and as much the more we know about each other the no we learned about alternative models
53:48the more like we can think of better ways of organizing and also just benefiting the benefiting the people
53:57as a whole so there's a lot uh coming there's the run-off there's the midterm elections in the u
54:03.s that will
54:04shape the region it will shape the world really and from latin america we're all just following the
54:10trends and trying to understand uh what is going to happen and i think we'll be talking about that soon
54:16any last thoughts it's a good start i would say yeah that is a good start okay so i think
54:24that
54:24we can wrap it up for today but we'll be surely like keeping communication because there's a lot
54:29coming so we'll probably see you in another episode thank you one more time thank you bella and thank
54:38you all for joining us for one more episode of overlap this conversations from across the world see you next
54:45time
54:45you