00:14Продолжение следует...
00:41Продолжение следует...
01:15Продолжение следует...
01:47Продолжение следует...
02:03Продолжение следует...
02:17Продолжение следует...
02:19Продолжение следует...
02:38Продолжение следует...
02:41Продолжение следует...
02:43Продолжение следует...
03:05Продолжение следует...
03:08Продолжение следует...
03:11Продолжение следует...
03:12Продолжение следует...
03:16Продолжение следует...
03:18Продолжение следует...
03:20Продолжение следует...
03:22Продолжение следует...
03:23Продолжение следует...
03:34Now we are, the government of Donald Tusk and the majority in the parliament and the judges who were elected
03:42by the parliament are trying to restore the rule of law in the parliament.
03:47And what we have seen is that on Friday, newly elected judges entered the constitutional court and Judge Anna Korvin
04:01-Piotrowska ordered the suspension of two judges, the president and the vice president of the constitutional court, who were appointed
04:11by the Law and Justice Party.
04:13So, let me ask you this. The government says it is restoring judicial independence after years of political weaponization under
04:23the Law and Justice Party.
04:24But isn't the government now doing exactly what it accused law and justice of doing, using political power to reshape
04:31the judiciary?
04:32Definitely not. The government, the majority in the parliament and the judges elected by the parliament are acting according to
04:43the rulings of the European courts, of the Court of Justice and the European Court of Human Rights,
04:49according to what Venice Commission confirmed just two weeks ago and according to the interim measure which was issued on
04:57the 5th of May this year, allowing these judges to enter the constitutional court.
05:02They were blocked by the president and the vice president of the court. And that's why Judge Anna Korvin-Piotrowska
05:10decided to suspend these two judges, the president and the vice president of the court.
05:15And that is what happened on Friday. And later on in the night, what we have seen was the brutal
05:23assault of the president of the republic who entered, using force, entered the building of the constitutional court and using
05:32the force, almost damaged the judges standing in front of the court.
05:38So this is what we have seen. So this is what we have seen. That was the brutal assault of
05:42the president of the republic on the independence of the constitutional court.
05:46So the European Commission says the same, the parliament, has the constitutional power to appoint judges to the constitutional tribunal.
05:54Does that settle the argument?
05:57Yes, definitely. The only competent authority in Poland to appoint judges of the constitutional court is the parliament, the lower
06:07chamber of the parliament in Poland.
06:09The president does not have any competences to appoint judges. That's why the only right is on the side of
06:18the parliament and the government and the judges who were elected properly by the parliament.
06:23And so we are facing the enforcement of law, the restoring of the rule of law and independence of this
06:31most important constitutional court in Poland.
06:35And what is the concrete way out of this crisis now? And what would it take to secure some sort
06:41of cross-party recognition of the tribunal?
06:44Well, the consistency of all of the actions in next days in the future.
06:50Tomorrow, there is an assembly, general assembly of all judges of the constitutional court, and they will decide upon the
06:58future of the constitutional court.
07:01This is the only competent body in the constitutional court to decide about the future of the constitutional court, of
07:10the judges and of the suspended president and vice president of the court.
07:15If Tusk and Nawrotsky refuse to back down, who actually has the power to stop this crisis?
07:24Well, this crisis, as I said, started back in 2015.
07:29And this year, President Nawrotsky, who is trying to block all of the restoration of the rule of law, all
07:36of the implementation of the rulings of the European courts,
07:39which is the most important because these rulings are drawing the roadmap how to get out of the crisis.
07:49But President Nawrotsky needs and wants to keep the power of his political camp over the constitutional court.
07:58So this is the fault of President Nawrotsky and his camp, that they don't want to restore the rule of
08:05law.
08:05They want to keep the political power over the constitutional court.
08:09That was the politically manipulated theater of puppets for 10 years, and they want to keep it.
08:17This is quite an extraordinary crisis.
08:20I can't remember anything like it in any other EU country.
08:24Are you worried that this story sort of harms the international, the European reputation of Poland?
08:32Our European friends deeply understand the situation in Poland because they are facing this situation for many years.
08:42And this situation, and also in other parts of the judiciary, was discussed, debated in the parliament, in other institutions
08:50of the European Union many times.
08:52So I truly believe that they understand the situation and they understand that the government of Donald Tusk is trying
09:00to restore, rebuild the rule of law in Poland.
09:05And we will be fully consistent in that way.
09:09And I believe we will do that.
09:11You are right that this is an unprecedented situation, not only in Poland, but in the whole Europe.
09:16Never happened before.
09:18But we are where we are, and we need to act on the battlefield where we are.
09:24All right, Michal Wawrejkiewicz, member of the European People's Party in the European Parliament.
09:29Thank you very much.
09:30Now I want to hear from the other side of the issue.
09:34And to do this, Polish Secretary of State and advisor to President Nawrowski, Marcin Pszedacz, joins us now.
09:40Good morning to you.
09:42Good morning.
09:43Very good morning.
09:44Hello, sir.
09:45So the government says it is trying to restore the tribunal's independence after years of political interference.
09:50President Nawrowski says the government is trying to take control of the court.
09:54Which side is defending the Constitution?
09:58Well, definitely restoring any kind of rule of law, which the government claims should not be done by the 3
10:08,000 riot police entering the premises of the Constitutional Tribunal.
10:13And that is what happened in the evening of Friday when people in Poland were heading towards their families out
10:23of Warsaw for the All Saints Day.
10:25It was a very quiet in the capital of Poland evening.
10:30President was on his way to Senegal.
10:32And suddenly we learned that Prime Minister Tusk sent 3,000 riot police troops in order to, as they say,
10:43clean the Constitutional Tribunal without any legal basis for that.
10:49Of course, there is a crisis.
10:50Of course, there is a dispute over that.
10:53But even the lawyers who are very close to the liberal government says that there is absolutely no legal basis
11:02for such a behavior of the government.
11:05What's more, the president of the Supreme Court and the president of the National Administrative Court,
11:11So the two most important judges in Poland, they also said publicly that there is absolutely no legitimate basis for
11:19such a behavior of the government.
11:21So that's why we are in such a crisis now in Poland.
11:24Sir, I mean, we all saw the scenes where President Nawarovsky entered the building, the tribunal building.
11:32Critics described the visit as a PR stunt to exert pressure on the court.
11:37Why did the president decide to intervene in person and what exactly was he trying to achieve?
11:44Well, according to the Polish constitution, a president of the Republic of Poland is the guard of the constitution.
11:52So whenever he sees that the constitution is violated, he is obliged to react.
11:58But before going to the tribunal, he went to his own palace, invited the president of the Supreme Court in
12:05order to learn his perspective, in order to learn an expertise on that.
12:10What's going on and how should he treat that?
12:12The president is the head of state with a very strong, strong, he's a legitimized leader.
12:21I mean, with a very strong mandate, more than 10 million people voted directly for him.
12:26But he wanted to learn the perspective of the legal perspective.
12:31After learning that it's all illegal, he went there in order to first learn on the basis what's going on
12:39there.
12:40The second, to help the legitimate president and the deputy president of the tribunal enter the building in order to
12:48restore the order.
12:50Unfortunately, he was blocked by those appointees of Prime Minister Tusk who are claiming that there are judges.
12:59But as Prime Minister Tusk publicly said, these are his judges.
13:05So the Prime Minister Tusk says, these are my judges.
13:08We believe that there shouldn't be any my, his or their judges.
13:13There should be legitimate legal judges, not Tusk's judges.
13:17Okay, sir, are President Nawrotsky and Prime Minister Tusk now effectively fighting a constitutional war?
13:24Well, as I said, there is a constitutional crisis, definitely.
13:28And the people of Poland gathered in front of the tribunal protesting against that kind of situation,
13:36mostly protesting, of course, against the entrance of police.
13:41They do.
13:42There are evidence that there is a crisis.
13:45What President Nawrotsky said and did after that,
13:49he invited all the political parties to the palace in order to talk.
13:53Because we believe that in democracy, it is the dialogue which may solve the crisis.
13:59The problem is that Prime Minister Tusk was not eager to really talk.
14:07He just issued his statement through the public television,
14:12saying that he will not step back from that,
14:15and he will only keep the police there in the constitutional tribunal.
14:21So all the other parties are very much eager to talk and to consult.
14:25And there is one main message coming from all the parties.
14:28It cannot be like this.
14:30There is a need for any kind of restart of a situation.
14:34So we do believe that based on that, we will build something positive.
14:39All right, Polish Secretary of State and Presidential Advisor Marcin Przedasz,
14:43thank you very much this morning.
14:46Almost 5,000 dead, more than 10,000 infected.
14:50The Ebola epidemic in the Democratic Republic of Congo is escalating.
14:54Yet the international response is struggling to keep pace.
14:58The Elders, a group of former world leaders founded by Nelson Mandela,
15:03are demanding urgent action.
15:05Earlier, I spoke to one of their most influential personalities,
15:08former Irish President Mary Robinson.
15:10And I started by asking her whether we're witnessing a global health emergency
15:14that the world is simply choosing to ignore.
15:18Here's what she said.
15:19It's really tragic what's happening,
15:21because this is the fastest moving Ebola.
15:2510,000 cases and about 50% mortality,
15:29which means more than 5,000 people have died.
15:32But worse than that,
15:33they're not able to follow up on the contacts
15:36because of the situation in the Democratic Republic of Congo.
15:40Of course, I know it well from my time as mediator
15:43for the Great Lakes in Africa, for the UN.
15:45And there is an urgent need for resources
15:49to help with contacts,
15:51to help the health workers,
15:53the frontline health workers,
15:54and to help with humanitarian access, etc.
15:57It has now spread.
15:59There are some cases also in Kenya,
16:02in Uganda,
16:02in Nigeria,
16:03and France.
16:04So it is very dangerous
16:07because of the fact
16:09that they are not able to trace the contacts,
16:11much less than in the Ebola in 2014, for example.
16:15And this is very worrying.
16:17So the elders are calling for more international action.
16:21What exactly are you demanding?
16:23Is it more money,
16:24more medical personnel,
16:25or a totally different international approach
16:29to this crisis?
16:31We're so worried
16:31that we actually wrote an open letter
16:35to the G20
16:36because 3 billion euros was pledged,
16:40but only a billion is being released.
16:43And of course,
16:44the G20 includes members of the EU.
16:47So we ask for the release
16:49of the funds that were pledged
16:50and are needed really urgently.
16:52And this should include specific funds
16:55to protect,
16:56pay and support health workers
16:57and community leaders
16:59for village centres' responses
17:01to the frontline
17:02and funds for humanitarian
17:04early recovery needs.
17:06It also calls for guaranteed fair access
17:09to approved vaccines
17:10and treatment for priority groups.
17:12First,
17:13to counter mutation risks,
17:15because there is a mutation risk,
17:17apparently,
17:18particularly in the DRC,
17:19and address the security dimension
17:22of the crisis
17:23by pressurising armed groups
17:25in the DRC
17:26and neighbouring countries
17:27with influence
17:28to allow safe access
17:30for health and humanitarian workers.
17:32They're the main calls
17:34that we make
17:35in that open letter.
17:36It was really very worrying,
17:39as I said,
17:40to see how quickly
17:41this is spreading,
17:42how high the mortality rate is,
17:45and, you know,
17:47only a billion
17:48of the three billion pledged
17:49has actually been released
17:51to address it.
17:52So you've been
17:53a leading international voice
17:55for human rights
17:56and international global justice.
17:59This is kind of a tough question.
18:02Is the impression right
18:04that the international community
18:06treats African lives
18:08as less valuable
18:09than European and American lives?
18:11I'm afraid it is a tough question,
18:13but you have to feel
18:15that, you know,
18:16the lives of those
18:17who are invisible to us,
18:19they're poor,
18:21they live in remote areas
18:22that are under difficulty
18:24of militias and armed groups,
18:26and we don't care enough.
18:28We don't care enough.
18:29That's true.
18:30And are Western governments
18:32guilty of complacency here,
18:34or are they simply overwhelmed
18:36by the magnitude
18:38of the crisis
18:39and shrinking aid budgets?
18:42I think there are
18:43a number of factors
18:44that distract governments,
18:46but the point we're making
18:47is this is dangerous.
18:49If you have
18:50a highly communicable disease
18:53and you don't,
18:54you're not able
18:54to trace the contacts
18:55because you don't have
18:56the resources to do it,
18:57it will spread further.
18:59And this could be really serious,
19:01particularly for African countries,
19:02but then it will spread to Europe.
19:06Former Irish President
19:07Mary Robinson
19:08on the growing Ebola crisis
19:10in Africa.
19:11More news today
19:13on all our platforms
19:14until we see each other
19:17again tomorrow.
19:18That's it for today.
19:19I thank you for watching.
19:20I'm Stefan Grobe.
19:21Take care.
19:52I'll see you next time.
19:52Bye.
