00:07Hello, I'm Jane Witherspoon and welcome to the World Conversation.
00:12In this episode, we're joined by Siha Sa Puan Ked Kiao,
00:16the Deputy Prime Minister for Thailand and Minister of Foreign Affairs.
00:21Tan Siha Sa, thank you so much for joining us today.
00:23Thailand has spent decades positioning itself as a country that can talk to everybody,
00:30but the world is becoming increasingly fragmented, more divided.
00:36Can Thailand really remain friends with everyone, or are there some hard choices to make now?
00:43Oh, definitely, you know, we like to be friends with everyone.
00:49And, of course, as you said, under the present circumstances,
00:56where we see more geopolitical competition, geo-economic, geo-technology competition,
01:04it's not that easy, you know.
01:07And, of course, the main contestation is between the two superpowers,
01:13with whom are both friends of Thailand.
01:18Well, we don't take side.
01:21And we ask our friends also not to force us to take side.
01:29But sometimes the message is clear, right?
01:33But not taking side does not mean being neutral.
01:42Because sometimes neutrality does not serve your interests.
01:47So we do have to take side on issues from time to time.
01:52That's unavoidable.
01:54You've mentioned there the superpowers, so we're talking China and the U.S.,
01:58who are great allies for Thailand.
02:00How do you balance that relationship, though?
02:02You say you make it about the issues, not the countries.
02:07Well, the best way of balancing is to, you know, we have to consider what is in our interests,
02:17you know, and what are the principles that we stand for,
02:23and what we consider to be what is right.
02:28And when times come that you have to make a decision, we do have to make a decision.
02:35And maybe it goes one way, and the other party might not like it.
02:41But we hope that, you know, that they will respect us for having made that decision,
02:48rather than, you know, sitting on the wall, sitting on the fence.
02:52China is Thailand's biggest trading partner.
02:55How can that come into play, that diplomacy, when it is affecting your economics of the country?
03:01Well, both, if you were talking about China and the U.S.
03:05both are important to Thailand.
03:10China is a major economic partner.
03:13It's our biggest trading partner.
03:17Investment from China is growing,
03:19especially in electric vehicles, as you know.
03:25The United States also has a lot of investment in Thailand, you know,
03:30and at the same time, the United States is important in terms of the security role
03:39that it plays in maintaining the balance of power.
03:41So, you know, for both countries, both countries are important partners of Thailand.
03:49But I think the best way to maintain a balance is to have, first, maintain strategic autonomy
03:58as much as we can.
04:00Yes.
04:00Second, have the freedom of choices.
04:05That means, you know, it's not one or the other.
04:07We have other major powers who have interest in the region.
04:12India, rising power.
04:15Japan, still an economic powerhouse.
04:18Korea, you know, coming up economically.
04:21And Australia, which also has strong interest in the region.
04:28So, sometimes balancing doesn't mean balancing between the two, right?
04:33And we are trying to engage constructively with all the two superpowers
04:38and also the other major powers who also play a vital role in the region.
04:45You have described ASEAN, which is the Association of Southeast Asian Nations,
04:51as being at the heart of your country's foreign policy.
04:56But the region is facing pressure from the U.S. and China rivalry.
04:59There's the situation in Myanmar.
05:02Tensions between its own members.
05:04Do you think ASEAN is strong enough to shape events
05:07as opposed to being reactive to them here?
05:11Well, you know, I've been in the foreign ministry for 40 years.
05:15Yes.
05:15I've seen, you know, how important ASEAN is to all the member states.
05:21We were able to overcome many critical peers in the past
05:26because we had ASEAN during the Cold War,
05:29during the conflict in Cambodia, right?
05:33So, all of us recognize that we're in this together.
05:37Yes.
05:37Maybe during the good days, you know, when the situation is not like now,
05:44we forgot about that a little bit, right?
05:47But I think we realize that now that we're confronted with many challenges,
05:54we have to really pull our strength.
05:57And, you know, the concept of ASEAN centrality is still there.
06:04But maybe we have to take it further and enhance that concept,
06:09meaning that we have to raise the level of our regionalism.
06:12That's important because if we simply think about our national interests,
06:16it's going to be difficult for us to pull our weight, right?
06:19Second, we must be resilient.
06:22Resilient in terms of making sure that we, you know,
06:27we can react to situations quickly.
06:29Yes.
06:30You know, we still have this principle consensus takes time,
06:32but we have to do things more quickly.
06:34Second, being resilient these days is economically, it's also important.
06:40We are a market of 700 million people.
06:43We are integrating, but we have not integrated enough.
06:47You mentioned Cambodia there.
06:50What is the situation and how are relations at the moment?
06:53Well, you know, we want to get beyond the conflict between our two countries.
07:00And, you know, two countries living side by side, we need to live together.
07:05Yes.
07:05But live together in a basis of mutual respect, mutual trust, and mutual confidence.
07:12Yes.
07:13And that is the basis for us to develop our relations.
07:16And certainly we cannot do it on our part.
07:21We want to, we hope that the Cambodian would, you know, join us in this effort.
07:27We want to rebuild our relations.
07:30But rebuilding also means that we have to, you know,
07:34put a stop to some of the, what we see as acts of provocation,
07:40especially in the international forums where, you know, Thailand seems to be targeted all the time
07:47on matters that are not related to the issues that we are dealing with.
07:52So, so we are, you know, ready.
07:55And anytime that the Cambodian side is ready, I'm sure we can take our relationship forward.
08:01You and the Prime Minister have advocated calibrated re-engagement,
08:07gradually re-integrating Myanmar into ASEAN dialogue.
08:12Some critics would argue that engaging with Myanmar's authorities risks legitimizing them.
08:20Why do you believe that engagement is the best strategy for Thailand?
08:27Well, those critics, it's easy to criticize when you're not the neighboring country of Myanmar.
08:35For us, it's not an academic exercise.
08:38You know, we deal with the situation in Myanmar every day for the past five years along our border, right?
08:45And they've had election, not a perfect election,
08:49but we believe that they must continue with the peace process
08:53and continue having talks with the opposition ethnic group.
08:58So opposition is clear that under this policy of re-calibrated engagement, re-engagement,
09:04that means we want to bring Myanmar back to ASEAN.
09:07Yeah.
09:07But it takes, it has to be a step-by-step effort,
09:10and they have to respond positively to our concern as well.
09:16But a Myanmar that is isolated from ASEAN is also not good in terms of geopolitics, right?
09:24And our approach is, first, definitely, you know, any neighboring country,
09:29you have to deal with the border issues, border trade, border security, scam, operations, drugs,
09:38pollution in the waters, in the sky.
09:41We have to talk with the government in Nebidon.
09:44But the other track, that means the situation,
09:48we have not abandoned our hope that they will move forward.
09:53And we have, you know, conveyed these messages all along.
09:56And, but in the end, it's up to them.
10:01It's up to them to make things work.
10:04It's up to them to move forward with peace, you know, with dialogue.
10:08So ultimately, it has to be a Myanmar-led, Myanmar-owned process inside the country.
10:15We've talked about neighboring countries and the region here, but looking further afield,
10:22how are you engaging more actively with partners in the EU, the UK, Australia,
10:30you know, further afield as Canada?
10:32You know, we live in a world where we see the rules-based international order breaking down.
10:39The multilateral trading system, on which we depended so much, also breaking down.
10:46Right.
10:46Or not working.
10:48And it's not just us looking at these partners.
10:52It's these partners looking at us as well.
10:55The Indo-Pacific is probably where we see much of the opportunities in trade investment.
11:01And ASEAN is one of the pillars of the Indo-Pacific.
11:06And so I think there's a strong degree of mutual desire on both on the part of these countries
11:13and on the part of Thailand and ASEAN to enhance our relations.
11:17How can Thailand make sure that it attracts investment from, you know, around the world
11:25so that you're not dependent on just one market?
11:27Well, first of all, as I mentioned, we're in a region that is very dynamic economically.
11:34I've seen 700 million people.
11:37But we're not, you know, we recognize that.
11:41It's up to us as well to make ourselves attractive for investment.
11:47I have to accept that the past few years, I think we, because of, you know,
11:52our politics had not settled down,
11:54we could not push through some of the reforms that are needed.
11:58Now, you know, we're doing a lot of restructuring, reform, the economy, deregulation,
12:04and also we're moving towards the new industries.
12:07I think one important consideration that those who are coming to invest,
12:11they think of, of course, the region, the market,
12:14and now it's clean energy.
12:18Yes.
12:19Everybody talks about clean energy, the new industry, because they want...
12:24And so Thailand, you know, we're very much engaged in trying to develop our sources of clean energy,
12:30not just with Thailand.
12:32You know, we're working with Laos on hydropower.
12:35Yeah.
12:36And also my prime minister was in Singapore recently.
12:40We talk about another clean energy hub involved in Singapore, Malaysia, and Thailand.
12:45So we're trying to also make ourselves attractive to foreign investors.
12:51We're seeing a lot of supply chains becoming increasingly reorganized around the world.
12:58Is Thailand ready to adjust to those as they change?
13:02Definitely.
13:03I think everybody talks about supply chains these days are not about cost.
13:08It's about resilience.
13:10Yes.
13:11Resilience against all kinds of risk.
13:13And I know one thing.
13:15In my recent discussion with leaders of government, leaders of the private sector,
13:23they're looking at the region and looking at Thailand
13:27because in addition to our economic potential,
13:32we're also considered to be a place where we're a strict geopolitically safe zone right now.
13:40And that's why it's essential for us to maintain peace and stability in the region.
13:48And, you know, and I'm sure that many supply chains,
13:52this is uppermost in their consideration when they think about realignment.
13:57With household debt sitting at 60% GDP, an ageing and also rapidly shrinking workforce,
14:05how does Thailand move forwards and seize this moment to forge a path with economic certainty?
14:13Well, every country has its challenges, and these are Thailand's challenges.
14:20How do we approach with, you know, we approach it with a sense of can-do attitude.
14:26I think we can resolve some of these challenges because, you know,
14:32right now we've been given an upgrade by all the rating agencies.
14:37So we're handling our macroeconomic situation.
14:42And we're mindful that, you know, we need to do some of the stimulus measures.
14:47The impact from the Middle East crisis is still with us.
14:51But at the same time, we're mindful that we cannot go beyond a certain ceiling.
14:56And secondly, we have to try to rely on domestic sources of borrowing as much as possible.
15:05And the other, those, we're an aging society.
15:11We have to ensure that those who are the retirees are not retiring.
15:18They still have means to earn a living.
15:21You know, we have programs so that they can upskill or reskill.
15:26And also for the young people, you know,
15:28it's also essential that they also develop the skills that are needed in this age of digital economy, AI.
15:36What would you like Thailand's global role to look like in five to ten years from now?
15:44Well, Thailand, I think everybody considers Thailand a nice, friendly country.
15:50You still want to be that nice, friendly country, welcoming to foreign visitors, you know,
15:58having, you know, all these attractions, Thai food.
16:02But at the same time, we cannot be sitting still.
16:06We have to modernize.
16:08We have to make sure that our economy remains dynamic.
16:13And that requires a lot of reform and restructuring.
16:16We want to be seen as not just a nice country, but also a dynamic country.
16:23But most importantly, we want to be seen as a responsible country.
16:27That means not just thinking of ourselves, thinking of the world,
16:33thinking of the international community,
16:36how we can contribute to making the world peaceful, better and safer place.
16:41We talk about global communities and governments coming together.
16:46You know, what do you think is the first priority which people need to address
16:52to make the world a better place?
16:54First, let's get the rule-based international system back on track.
16:59We need international cooperation because we face so many challenges, you know.
17:04Nobody can go it alone.
17:05That's the first thing, to restore multilateralism.
17:10Second, of course, there are immediate challenges like climate change.
17:15We don't know what is the next black swan, when another pandemic will happen.
17:22But our main concern right now is the threats coming from cyberspace.
17:29Yes.
17:29You know, and these are transnational crime of all sorts.
17:34But our main concern right now is the threat of online scams.
17:40And this region is, we have to admit, is the centre.
17:44Thank you so much for joining us on the World Conversation on Euronews today.
17:47What a pleasure to meet you.
17:48Thank you very much.
17:49Thank you.
17:50Thank you.
17:50CC por Antarctica Films Argentina
