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00:00Welcome back to the Against Cage Podcast. I'm here with longtime UFC commentator, John Anik.
00:05John, big fight week. Another fight week for you. And I appreciate you jumping on. How's everything going?
00:10Oh, it's great. It's good to be back in the Mecca.
00:12You know, as happy as a Boston guy can be to actually be in New York City is my disposition
00:19right now.
00:20But no, there's just something so special about this week, as you well know.
00:23It is the biggest week of most calendar years.
00:27If we're not for UFC Freedom 250, this would be the biggest star of the year.
00:31So needless to say, we're all chomping at the bit to get to the Mecca Saturday night.
00:35UFC, the freedom card was incredible. It was there.
00:38But you've been just you've seen so much. The freedom card, this card, you know, back, you know, McGregor Cerrone
00:46card.
00:46I remember you did an incredible job with.
00:49But just in terms of the way that the world has changed in mixed martial arts, the innovation, the things
00:54like that.
00:55What do you what do you see in terms of the innovation of the sport and the way that, you
01:00know, fighting has changed.
01:01Data has changed. Way fans interact with the sport has changed.
01:05What do you see how crazy it is?
01:07Well, I see a lot of evolution and change in the future as well.
01:10You know, a lot of people will suggest to you that the fan base turns over every two to three
01:15years.
01:15And certainly it's our job as commentators to try to humanize these athletes in such a way to be additive
01:21to the sport, to make people stick around and become UFC fans for life.
01:25Certainly a lot of stuff we're doing analytically and on the statistics front with IBM, I think, is really additive
01:32and elevative in terms of where we can take this sport.
01:35You know, we can get into the corner enthusiasm score and a lot of things that we're doing with IBM.
01:39I think ultimately, as far as the sport is concerned, we just need to be willing to make rule changes,
01:45do anything we can to make the sport better and recognize that we are still in our relative infancy.
01:49This sport began in 1993. And if Major League Baseball recently can make the bases bigger and institute a pitch
01:57clock, right, there's a lot of things we can do to take the sport to the next level.
02:00And I think a lot of what IBM is doing sort of ties into to that.
02:05Do you think that so and we'll explain this a little bit, but so IBM is developing this corner analysis
02:11where they're getting into like the nitty gritty of how a fan or how a fan sees and hears the
02:17momentum of how, you know, the corners are interacting with their fighters and kind of the enthusiasm ratings and stuff
02:23like that.
02:23I feel like that's a big part of, you know, how the how the entire fight is going, the story
02:27of the fight, something that you in particular, I feel like, are very in depth of analyzing how the the
02:34corners are instructing their their fighters.
02:38You say it on the broadcast all the time. Great corner work by John or something like that.
02:42No, no doubt. And even if you look at my fighter card right here, it's blank.
02:45But what do I have written on there? All of the coaches names. Right.
02:49So that's really where I begin is making sure that I know exactly who's going to be in the corner
02:53and what their individual roles are.
02:55And sometimes during a broadcast, you might see me actually take the cans off to try to hear what is
03:00happening in the red corner to my right.
03:03And certainly I remember back during the global pandemic, you could hear every word that they were saying.
03:07But now with this AI powered technology, we can in real time give sort of a score to everything that
03:14we are getting out of that corner in terms of energy, in terms of inflection, in terms of composure, in
03:20terms of chaos.
03:21Are they sort of deflated in tone? Are they aggressive in tone?
03:26Are they trying to manipulate judges by calling out every strike, you know?
03:30So it's an interesting tool. It's going to be fascinating to see how it's incorporated in broadcast.
03:35And I think just the latest example of, you know, not just the UFC, but IBM and collaboratively not resting
03:41on their laurels, trying to see how we can use the tools that we have to take the telecasts of
03:48this great sport to the next level.
03:50And what would you say is like a coach that you think would score highly on it?
03:53And the reason that I ask this is because Hamzat Chemaev's coach, I remember Gilbert Burns fight many, many years
03:59ago in between rounds two and three, Hamzat got clocked by Gilbert Burns the end of the round.
04:05And then his coach was screaming at him, throwing things in the corner, telling him basically to wrestle is after
04:12the translation.
04:12I remember Joe Rogan's like, can we get a translator in there, please?
04:15But I'm always interested, who do you think would score highly on this new tool?
04:20And maybe how will the UFC even put it into their broadcast?
04:25Well, the second question is the biggest challenge, right?
04:27How do we effectively incorporate this technology into the broadcast and make sure that it is additive?
04:33And I don't have the best answer for you on that, but I'm confident that we can seamlessly get in
04:39and out and make this something that I think people are interested in.
04:42I'm fascinated by the corners.
04:44General Saif Saud is the first guy I thought of from Fortis MMA.
04:47When I think about tonal quality, inflection, energy, enthusiasm, he's sort of the first name that comes to mind.
04:54But one corner that I think undeniably is interesting to analyze is the MMA lab.
04:59John Crouch is the head coach.
05:01Oftentimes, he can be soft-spoken and take sort of a tertiary role.
05:05He's imparting instruction to former UFC lightweight champion Benson Henderson at times who is in the front row.
05:11And he is sort of the vocal voice of that corner.
05:14And I think Benson wants to make sure that every single judge in the building knows exactly what his fighter
05:19has done with every single motion.
05:21So I think there are a lot of corners that really would shine, so to speak, with this technology.
05:27And it transcends a lot of different languages as well, which I think is cool.
05:31We'll see how some of these Brazilian Portuguese corners are interpreted.
05:37But it's really cool for me to think about having another resource like this on fight night.
05:42No, 100%.
05:42And then when we get into the UFC MSG card, I mean, we have Tauket at the head of the
05:47card, which is surprising to me.
05:48From my perspective, I think Kayla Harrison versus Manny Nunez should be the headliner.
05:52I think this is the biggest, most consequential women's fight of all time.
05:55But we got Surreal gone, Josh Hockett at the top of the card.
05:58Where do you see this heavyweight bout in the grand scheme of things?
06:02I mean, obviously, we're looking at it, it's a heavyweight title fight.
06:06It's not the interim, right?
06:08So where are we looking at it from that perspective as a headlining card of MSG?
06:14Well, you're right insofar as Kayla Harrison and Amanda Nunez shouldn't take a second fiddle to anyone, right?
06:20So I agree with a lot of your sentiment there.
06:23But the Undisputed UFC Heavyweight Championship is the biggest prize in this sport.
06:27So not surprised to see that that is the headlining act at Madison Square Garden.
06:32And I do believe that Josh Hockett is the most deserving contender on paper.
06:38You're right.
06:38I mean, he's relatively green as far as his UFC run is concerned.
06:42He was on Dana White's contender series 15 months ago.
06:44But when you look at the fellow contenders and you look at Alexander Volkov having a recent loss to Seidel
06:49Gahn,
06:49even though a lot of the fan base thought he beat him,
06:52this was the guy in a straight meritocracy that I think was probably the most deserving.
06:56So now we see what he can do with it.
06:58And I think we make so much of Josh Hockett's brashness and his self-belief and his crudeness at times.
07:06And maybe we don't make enough of the athlete and the guy who was on the San Francisco 49ers practice
07:10squad for two years.
07:11The guy who not only wrestled in college but also scored 17 touchdowns for Fresno State as a fullback, right?
07:17So I think he's got a lot of different tools.
07:21His ability to bring those weapons to the table at the right time could produce an undisputed heavyweight title this
07:27weekend.
07:27But, you know, he's the underdog for a reason.
07:29And that's why they play the games.
07:31Certainly.
07:32And obviously, Seidel Gahn's got the crazy athleticism.
07:34We've seen him with the dunks on YouTube, Instagram, etc.
07:39I know you don't get into the game of predictions.
07:41What do you think that Josh Hockett needs to do in order to come away victorious this weekend, as you
07:46mentioned, as an underdog?
07:48Well, I think he needs to try to make it dirty.
07:52I think he tries to invoke some fatigue in Seidel Gahn, ideally get it to those championship rounds.
07:57You know, there are a lot of intangibles and variables on both sides.
08:00You know, we don't know who's going to be the fresher fighter if this thing goes to the championship rounds.
08:04But I do believe if Hockett can dirty box, take advantage of his hand speed, right, it's going to be
08:09rare for Seidel Gahn to be staring across from the octagon with a guy who can match his speed in
08:14some respects.
08:15So I think he's got to make it dirty, though.
08:16I think he's got to wrestle, be productive with the drowning pound.
08:20And I think a longer fight, you know, favors Josh Hockett.
08:23And it's not as though he's some plus 500 underdog.
08:26You know, he's plus 190 right now.
08:27So I think a lot of people think he's got a chance, even if they don't think he's a live
08:32underdog, per se.
08:33No, 100%.
08:34I mean, he's talented.
08:35We know that he's talented.
08:36I mean, he's just I think he comes with a lot of a lot of bluster.
08:39I mean, over under one and a half flipping of the birds during the card.
08:42Well, that's the thing, right, is that trying to sort of inject anything into this fight that is abnormal that
08:49he can, right, give Seidel Gahn other things to think about.
08:52You know, Josh Hockett's not throwing a jab.
08:54He's flipping you the bird.
08:55How do you react?
08:56I will say Seidel Gahn is a mental giant.
08:59I would be surprised if he gets affected by that stuff.
09:03But you just never know, man.
09:04The fight game's crazy.
09:05I don't have to tell you that.
09:06No, 100%.
09:07And we'll go on to the co-main event here.
09:09Obviously, I mentioned Kayla Harrison versus Amanda Nunez.
09:13Huge fight.
09:14I mean, this is a fight a decade in the making.
09:17I didn't think it was going to happen at different points.
09:20It looks like we're going to get there on Saturday.
09:22How consequential is this to UFC, women's MMA, bantamweight, all of it?
09:29Yeah.
09:30Well, it's funny how you say it looks like we're going to get it Saturday night because you're right.
09:33There is the fight before the fight, and that is on the scale for both of these athletes, both dealing
09:38with long layoffs.
09:39Kayla Harrison dealing with the neck surgery.
09:41And there's nothing easy about making 135 pounds for either of these women.
09:45But consequentially, this is the biggest fight in women's mixed martial arts history, and that is not promotional hyperbole.
09:52That is exactly what is in front of us when you look at the respective resumes of these two ladies.
09:57And as concrete as their legacies are, it's crazy to think how big a win for either of these women
10:04would be for their respective legacies.
10:06I get anxious just previewing this fight with you, bro.
10:09Like, stylistically, it's absolutely fascinating to see who will have the upper hand.
10:14And I feel like mentally they're both so forged that any factor, whether it's neck surgery or a bad weight
10:21cut or the layoff for Amanda Nunez that amounts to more than three years, I don't think those are going
10:26to be factors.
10:27I think they're both going to put their best feet forward and may the best woman win.
10:30I can't wait.
10:31I really don't think that this is a fight where it's like they're both out of their primes either.
10:35I think that Kayla Harrison is still in the thick of her prime.
10:38And Amanda Nunez, we haven't seen her since 2023, but the last that we've seen of her was elite, elite
10:44level.
10:45It's not like she's coming off of a loss.
10:47So from that, I mean, again, we don't get into the game of predictions here, but what does Amanda need
10:52to do to win?
10:53And then what does Kayla need to do to win?
10:56Yeah, no, I think you're right in terms of where they are in relation to their respective primes.
11:03But I don't believe, I mean, I think Kayla Harrison is going to retire, win or lose, right?
11:06Even if her skill set right now is as high as it's ever been, I don't think her body can
11:11take cutting down to 135 pounds many more times.
11:15It's a really simple handicap, though.
11:17I mean, certainly there are things like energy systems and cardiovascular bases and things that could come into play.
11:22But, you know, Kayla's going to be trying to wrestle and grapple, and Amanda Nunez is going to be trying
11:27to knock her fucking head off.
11:28You know, so I think Amanda Nunez wants to keep this fight on the feet and be very mindful of
11:34her get-ups.
11:35And when she does get taken down or if she gets taken down by Kayla Harrison, win those small battles.
11:41You know, I mean, there's a lot of connective tissue in terms of the corners and so much familiarity between
11:46athletes.
11:46They know each other so well.
11:48But in terms of what each woman is trying to do, you know, Kayla wants this fight on the canvas,
11:52and Amanda wants it, you know, ideally on a napkin right in the center of the octagon.
11:57We are recording this 2.30 on a Tuesday.
12:01There hasn't been a whole lot of promotional buildup by these two.
12:05But I think that there's a backstory here that hasn't been fully told yet.
12:10Do you expect there to be maybe some bad blood in a press conference or, you know, in a stare
12:17-down or anything like that?
12:19Do you expect anything maybe a little bit testy between these two?
12:23It's a great question.
12:24I don't expect them to lean too heavily into the friction.
12:27I'm about to go do the face-offs at Times Square here in about three hours, and I think it'll
12:33be the first time that they come face-to-face this week.
12:35And I expect intensity, but I don't really expect them to lean too heavily into that.
12:41Maybe there will be a little bit of a back-and-forth at the press conference and how maybe Amanda
12:46Nunes' relationship with American Top Team fizzled because maybe she wanted attention there that she wasn't getting when Kayla was
12:52in those doors.
12:53Maybe they would lean into that a little bit, but I think there's just so much respect here and just
12:59trying to get to fight night and get to the weight cut that I just don't expect it to get
13:03crazy.
13:03But I certainly will not complain if it gets intense and there's a wayward shove thrown on one side or
13:09the other.
13:09Yeah, that would be super interesting.
13:12Yeah, I mean, you mentioned it with, like, the coaches and stuff like that.
13:15Obviously, the coaches are a big topic of our conversation here with the meter that we're testing over at IBM.
13:23So, yeah, it's going to be really interesting.
13:25And I'm excited for this weekend's card, man.
13:28This is going to be fun.
13:30Any parting thoughts, something interesting of this past fight week?
13:33I mean, obviously, you're in the big city right now.
13:36Anything interesting that's been happening so far?
13:38Obviously, it's only Tuesday, but a lot of time.
13:41Well, it's just crazy, right?
13:42As a Boston guy who grew up rooting against all of these New York teams, there is just something so
13:47undeniably special about this city.
13:49And I don't know that there's anywhere else in the world that can sort of bottle that electricity.
13:55And it just feels just as electric every time you come here.
13:59So, it's crazy to think that when I started with this company for five years, Mixed Martial Arts wasn't even
14:04sanctioned and legal in New York.
14:06And now this has become the biggest show of the year.
14:09So, the countdown is on, my friend.
14:11I can't wait to get to MSG.