2026 Interviews by Elements of Madness - Dailymotion

Elements of Madness

Watch the playlist 2026 Interviews by Elements of Madness on Dailymotion

Transcript

00:00We're alive, we're alive!

00:02Hey folks, contributor Joel here.

00:04Just got done interviewing David Kittredge, the director of Borman and the Devil.

00:09This is a documentary about John Borman and the making of Exorcist II the Heretic.

00:13It kind of goes into how it landed, how that went, and it goes into the making of the film.

00:21But it's much more than that.

00:22It delves into Borman the man and his legacy and how he returned to filmmaking after it

00:30and his creative pursuits and how they've changed since then.

00:34It kind of goes into filmmaking in general as taking a swing and how it's romantic to take a big

00:39swing

00:39and have no studio notes and the consequences of when that doesn't go right.

00:45It goes into the state of Hollywood at the time, the auteur filmmaker kind of doing their thing

00:50and the kind of collapse of that and how The Heretic is kind of in the line of one of

00:56those films

00:57that kind of helped that collapse.

01:00But it's a very interesting film, not just about The Heretic.

01:04If you're interested in filmmaking and how that went and how they filmed some of the things,

01:09it's great for that.

01:10But it's also a really, really fascinating look at a man's legacy and him dealing with it.

01:16And Borman gets very personal and it's an excellent, excellent documentary.

01:21And I hope you enjoy the conversation.

01:23Thanks.

01:27Cool.

01:28Thank you so much for having me.

01:29Of course.

01:30Yeah.

01:30I read the notes on it and you said that you kind of obsessed this movie, you know,

01:36from watching it at the video store next to the original Exorcist.

01:39I came to The Exorcist very late in life.

01:42Grew up very sheltered and wasn't allowed to watch movies.

01:45So I came to The Exorcist very late and I came to The Exorcist 2 very late.

01:49And so I think that my view of it is a little bit different.

01:52I like Exorcist 2.

01:56I can see why people didn't like it.

01:57It was such a departure and things like that.

01:59What drew you to The Exorcist 2 as like a young burgeoning signophile?

02:05Like what was it that brought you to it?

02:08That's a good question.

02:09I'm actually not asked that question a lot.

02:10What brought me to it?

02:11I mean, I saw it for the first time when I was a kid.

02:15I was a teenager and it was on Betamax.

02:20And that was the European version.

02:22So the only version that you could get of Exorcist 2 for a very long time after it was released

02:26was the recut version that went to Europe that was 16 minutes shorter.

02:30And it has a different beginning, a different ending.

02:32There's a lot of changes in it.

02:34Mostly because when the film was recut in panic, Borman just wanted to delete anything that

02:41any of the audiences like laughed at, which is, you know, you understand.

02:45I understand that.

02:47So I thought it was an interesting film, but I didn't really like groove on it until I

02:52saw the actual first release, which is what Warner Brothers home video put out in the mid

02:58nineties or the, yeah, it was like 95 or something on the, like a video.

03:04What was that?

03:05The, the sleeve, not the big clamshell.

03:09And that was the version that I was like, wait a second, this movie is really, really

03:14fascinating because it's, it's very much itself.

03:20It's a, it's a very coherent vision.

03:22It's very consistent in it, in, in its approach and in its like style.

03:28Um, and I think that sometimes, especially for a horror movie, that style just doesn't

03:31work.

03:32Like if you're looking for a kind of a conventional horror movie, um, and that's kind of the baggage

03:37it was like laden with.

03:39It's like, so I, I kind of like, it was interesting cause I saw it in two different ways at

03:44the

03:44same time in a way that I don't think I'd ever seen a movie like that before where I saw

03:49the

03:49quality within it that was inherent to it, that had nothing to do with it being a sequel

03:54to the exorcist or a horror movie or the people coming in with those pre pre, you know,

03:59those loaded, uh, concepts, um, even with its flaws, because it is, I want to say it is

04:07a flawed movie.

04:07I'm not one of the people that thinks that exorcist two is like this, you know, gem masterpiece

04:13that has been uncovered.

04:14I do think it's one of the most interesting movies I've ever seen, not just because of

04:18the movie that it is, but because how it got made the, the, the, the absolutely gutsy

04:24ambitious approach it took.

04:26Um, I mean, talk about a layup.

04:29It's like, it would have taken almost nothing for them to make another movie about a possessed

04:34kid, maybe a boy this time, and maybe in Chicago and not Georgetown or Washington, maybe somewhere

04:39else.

04:39And like another priest and, you know, basically rehash the first movie or, you know, add twists

04:45here and there, but it's like, you know, it would have been very, very, very, very easy

04:50for them to do that.

04:51And Borman was not interested in that.

04:53And the head of Warner brothers production, John Kelly was not interested in that.

04:57They wanted to do something that was wholly original that could stand alongside the exorcist

05:03as, as a, as a movie, like, you know, that, that maybe takes the, the characters in the

05:08situations, but is its own thing.

05:10And that was always the approach.

05:12And, you know, this was in the days where sequels weren't exactly always like just a fait

05:17accompli.

05:18They weren't like just expected.

05:20Right.

05:21So I think Hollywood was trying to figure out, okay, if we want to do a sequel, that's

05:28not just like a cash in, that's not just a dumb rehash.

05:32How do we do it?

05:33You know, an exorcist to the heretic is, I guess, an example of going all the way on this

05:40one end, which is going so far from the original tonally, even in genre that audiences

05:48completely turned on it.

05:51And the other, the other end would be just to do the same thing again.

05:54Like, you know, I would say like a Jaws 2 and Jaws 2 is not a bad movie, but it's,

05:58there's

05:59nothing particularly surprising in Jaws 2.

06:01Right.

06:01You know, it's a fine movie.

06:03I actually saw it earlier this year for the first time in a while.

06:08But yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, when you, when you look at movies, especially

06:12now, like it's so funny because this movie took so long to make and I find it even more

06:17pertinent now than it was when I started making it.

06:20Um, I feel like people are starving for original swings and ambition and, you know, movies that

06:28aren't quite as terrified as the executives that green light it and want to keep their

06:33jobs.

06:34I mean, I think that people are desperate for something interesting and different and, you

06:39know, a swing.

06:40And I think that's the, that's what art gives us at its best.

06:43And I think that, you know, where we are at in this industry.

06:48And one of the reasons there's, there's been a malaise, although this summer is now doing

06:51very well, um, is, is simply because there are a lot of people who work at a lot of studios

06:57who have a lot of money who want to keep their jobs.

07:00Right.

07:00And that's, and, and more than making a good movie, more than even making a hit, that's

07:04all they want.

07:05They just want to keep their jobs.

07:06And maybe that's not the best way to do this is my, is, is my thought.

07:12For sure.

07:13I don't know.

07:13I don't know exactly what to change because everything costs a lot of money, but you know,

07:17it's, it's, you're not going to get, you're not going to get a deliverance or a point blank

07:23or an Excalibur if you are not allowing filmmakers to make Exorcist 2s is the point.

07:29Yeah.

07:29One of the things I love about the doc, which it was, I loved it so much.

07:33Um, oh, thanks.

07:34Is it wasn't just like a glorified extra for like, uh, uh, you know, the Blu-ray release

07:39of Exorcist 2, you know what it was?

07:40Can I just tell you, like, it's so mad when I read that.

07:43It's like, I've read, I've read that a couple, like people are just like, oh, it's a glorified

07:47extra.

07:47Like, it's like, okay.

07:48So is any documentary about any movie now going to be a glorified extra to you fucking idiots?

07:52It's like, sorry.

07:53It's like, no, this was never, this was never about that.

07:57This was never going to be an extra for anything.

07:59Well, you dove a lot into Borman the Man, which I loved.

08:03I would love to see just a Borman doc, but, um, also the kind of like that turn of auteur

08:11led cinema getting just whatever they wanted, um, carte blanche just to do what they wanted.

08:16Um, and, you know, Days of, uh, Days of Heaven and Coppola and those kind of films were,

08:22those were leaving Hollywood and the studio note version of Hollywood was kind of coming

08:27into place.

08:28What, one of the things that I was wondering that wasn't necessarily in the doc was, uh,

08:33I understand that Borman could, they could have done whatever he wanted.

08:36It was his, it was his movies.

08:37There was no oversight.

08:38Was there anything that the studio, like they never came to set or watch dailies or was

08:43there ever, was there anything ever where they were like, um,

08:46maybe, maybe things aren't going the way.

08:49Cause like obviously the troubled production and everything, but was there anything like

08:51at the studio level where they were like, huh?

08:56Well, I mean, John Calley, uh, and there was a bit that was cut from the film just for time.

09:02John Calley was the head of production for Warner brothers and he was the one who was really

09:06spearheading, making the heretic into a big budget, a list picture and not just doing

09:11a retread.

09:13He's the one who brought on Borman.

09:14And he's the one who I believe finished the deal with Linda Blair for her to come back.

09:19Cause she absolutely did not want any sort of, pardon me, any sort of rehash of the

09:26exorcist.

09:26She wanted nothing to do with it.

09:28And so, uh, you know, what happened was around December, 1975, John Calley was basically ousted

09:36in his position because Barry Lyndon came out and it did not do very well.

09:40And Barry Lyndon was the biggest budget in Warner brothers history up to, up to that point.

09:44Um, it didn't do badly, but it certainly didn't do anywhere near what Warner brothers wanted

09:49it to do because Cooper could come off of 2001 and then clockwork orange.

09:53And both of them were very successful.

09:54Um, so Calley was ousted and, but, but, but what I mean by that is he was given an independent

10:01producer deal.

10:02So he was kept on the lot.

10:03So no one else could touch him, but he was basically like out of the loop, go to your

10:07corner and, and, you know, paid for it.

10:09But just like, you're going to go over there and, you know, just sit there for a while.

10:12And he was replaced by a guy named Guy McElwain, who used to be Steven Spielberg's agent, but

10:17in John Borman's contract, he had it written literally.

10:21He did not have to deal with anyone at Warner brothers, except John Calley.

10:24Cause John Calley was an executive that creatives loved.

10:26Cause he was, he was helpful.

10:28Um, he let them do what they wanted, but he was also, you know, he had notes, but they

10:33were, he was good with notes and he was respectful.

10:34And he was, he was the best kind of creative producer, uh, and he was running Warner brothers.

10:40Um, so what happened was he was out, uh, Borman, the only person Borman was dealing with then

10:45was the head of the Warner communications, which is all of Warner's, not just Warner brothers

10:49pictures, which was, his name was Ted Ashley.

10:52And he, Ted Ashley came up as an, uh, an agent.

10:56And, uh, so he was basically a, a check writer.

10:59Um, I, I won't, you know, I don't get that sense that he was very creative, like, or had

11:05creative like thoughts or like notes or something.

11:07I think he looked at it, like I'm the head of this company, we're making a sequel to

11:11the exorcist.

11:12We have the director of deliverance, whatever he wants.

11:15And so it's not like there was no oversight.

11:17It's just that I think he fell into this lucky or unlucky position of being able to just kind

11:24of do it.

11:25And, and, and, you know, as long as he kept things kind of on the rails and they were,

11:31I mean, you know, there was a lot of things that went wrong.

11:32They went way over budget.

11:33They went way over schedule.

11:35None of that had to do with John Borman.

11:36That was all just circumstantial craziness.

11:39Yeah.

11:40Um, and they got more into it as it went on, but Hallie came back to his position shortly

11:46before the film wrapped.

11:47Uh, and at that point, what are you going to do?

11:49Like he's looking at dailies.

11:50I'm sure he's just going to be like, well, it's exorcist too.

11:53Let's see what, see what happens, you know?

11:55Um, but yeah, he, he did fall into this kind of fortunate position of being able to just

12:02do what he wanted and, and, and have basically the, like all of the studios, uh, weapons at

12:10its disposal, like the best technicians, the best sound stages, the best people, uh, to

12:14realize this really artistic kind of ambitious vision.

12:19Is there a script or, or, um, uh, like storyboards or anything of, uh, the void, the original ending?

12:30Yeah.

12:30I actually, I actually show some of them in the doc very briefly, but it's basically,

12:35I mean, it's very funny because later Poltergeist has a very similar ending.

12:39Yeah.

12:40That was a few years later.

12:41Um, I don't think that, I don't think anybody cribbed from this, but it's very, very, very

12:45similar.

12:45It's like, so it's, it's basically the same thing.

12:47It's like the house kind of collapses and then goes in the void and, and she's like trying

12:52to pull herself up and the walls are slip and rubbery and it's a nightmare.

12:57And I would have taken a lot.

12:59It probably would have taken like another, I don't know, two or three weeks just to shoot

13:03all of that.

13:04Cause there was a lot.

13:05And, and so when they had to, they had to wrap, uh, they were, they lost Bert.

13:09Um, because he had another shoot and they were over and yeah.

13:15So they, they kind of put together the ending that's there, which is pretty impressive as

13:19an ending, as far as like physical effects.

13:21It's like a lot.

13:22Um, yeah, but, uh, but yeah, that's the, there are storyboards of the void.

13:27You can find them in, um, the Lilly library at the university of Indiana and Borman's papers,

13:33which he, uh, donated.

13:35Okay.

13:36Um, when, so you, you kind of formed a relationship with Borman's aside from just as a, from just

13:44being in the biz.

13:45Yeah.

13:46No, I reached out to him saying I wanted to do a documentary on exorcist.

13:50Okay.

13:50This is great.

13:51So I was wondering, how did that go?

13:53Did he tell you to fuck off or?

13:55No, I mean, I, I expected he would, because I mean, this is honestly one of the, this

13:58is the film that he never wanted to, never wanted to talk about.

14:01And I mean, it's a trauma.

14:04This is a professional, this is probably the biggest, I don't know this, but I, I imagine

14:08it's probably the biggest professional trauma of his life.

14:10And, um, yeah, I mean, I'm sure there's a weird irony in this great filmmaker, like,

14:18as you said, not having his own documentary for like all of his, like, but basically the

14:22one film that I think that is kind of the nadir of his critical, like his, his output

14:28as far as like, you know, commercial or critical, um, weight.

14:32Uh, and, and it's a deep dive into that.

14:35I'm sure you probably would have appreciated a deep dive into Excalibur, one of the other

14:40films that are like truly great films.

14:42But I think this film is important, not just for him, but for like showing what it is to

14:48be an artist and what it is to take risks.

14:50And what happens if that doesn't work?

14:53What happens if it's a catastrophe?

14:55How do you, how do you manage to be that sincere and that open and that vulnerable and pick

15:00up the pieces and then go on?

15:02Cause he went on, he could have quit.

15:04He could have quit.

15:05He thought of quitting and he didn't.

15:07Um, so when I, when I went out to Borman, really, it was a bit of a courtship.

15:11I mean, really is what I, what I say.

15:13And, uh, I had to let him know that I was for real, that I really wanted to do doc.

15:17And it was, I'm a real filmmaker and I know what I'm doing and that I wasn't going to do

15:21a snarky, like bad movie doc.

15:24I think I wasn't out to make fun of him or the film.

15:27Um, and I wanted to go into what it was that he was trying to do, how technically he did

15:35all this stuff, because technically I'm a cinephile nerd.

15:37So like all of those like camera stuff, I was like, that was like, oh my God, that was

15:42so cool to me.

15:43I think that it's just like amazing.

15:45The technical shit that they did.

15:46It's amazing.

15:48Um, and, and I, there were two things that changed it for me.

15:52I think that one was, um, uh, uh, when I said his decision to shoot on soundstages reminded

15:59me of black Narcissus, the Powell and Pressburger movie.

16:02And he is a huge Powell and Pressburger fan.

16:04I didn't know that, but I was, you know, he really liked that.

16:07And then I said, I don't think you could have made Excalibur the way you did.

16:10Had you not gone through the hell of the heretic?

16:12And he agreed because Excalibur was a movie that is so furious and so passionate.

16:18And so every shot in that movie is like, oh, you know, like, I'm going to give it to

16:23you.

16:23It's, it's, it's by someone who's something to prove it's by someone who thought he might

16:27be making his last film.

16:29Right.

16:29Proving something to himself, maybe even.

16:31Oh, oh yeah, absolutely.

16:33Proving something to himself, proving something to the critics, proving something to audiences,

16:35uh, but mostly to himself.

16:38And, and, you know, if he'd never made another movie again, that was the one he wanted to

16:42go out on.

16:43And luckily he didn't have to.

16:45When, so he was the first one that kind of like, oh, gave you like, if he wouldn't have

16:50given you his blessing, would you have done it?

16:52Oh, I would have done a doc, but it probably would have been, uh, it would have been more

16:57theoretical.

16:57It would have been about Exorcist too, because I really love the way that this is all, you

17:02know, made.

17:02And, and, and I think there's a lot of really amazing stuff in it, but it would have been

17:06a very different movie after he was the first interview I did.

17:09And after I did that interview, cause I figured there was a movie without him.

17:12And there was a movie with him.

17:13And it's like, I really wanted to do the movie with him.

17:15Um, but after that interview, I knew it wasn't really going to be about Exorcist too.

17:20It was going to be about an artist and what it means to be an artist and what it means

17:25to take risks and take swings.

17:27Yeah.

17:28And what it means to pick yourself up after a catastrophe.

17:32I love that.

17:33And that's, I love the, I love the pivot.

17:34It's so great.

17:36It's part of the, uh, thank you.

17:38When everybody, when he came on board, was it easier to, was it easy to get people on

17:42board for interviews?

17:43Linda Blair?

17:44Oh yeah.

17:44Yeah.

17:44I mean, it was, it was never, honestly, weirdly, it was never that hard.

17:49Everybody remembered this movie like it was yesterday or at least last Thursday.

17:53Yeah.

17:54It was really, it was, I mean, really, this was a very, very formative shoot for all of

17:59these people.

17:59Like these crew members who had gone on to like doing hundreds of credits, it's like

18:05they still remember the heretic and like what they were trying to do with the huge sets and

18:09the camera work and the in-camera effects and, and, and all of the stuff that happened.

18:15And, and yeah, it's, it's like it, it, and Borman, especially, um, how Borman like encouraged

18:24them to do better within themselves.

18:26He was always encouraging.

18:27He, he helped all of these people with his leadership and his, and his faith in them.

18:34Everybody went to that set committed to making a good movie, like a great movie.

18:38That's the, everybody was so personally committed.

18:41And when it, when it failed, um, it wasn't just devastating for Borman.

18:46It was devastating for an awful lot of people who worked on it.

18:49Was, um, the, the, the guy that, that co-wrote it, that didn't get the credit.

18:53I can't remember.

18:54Rospo.

18:55Rospo Pallenberg.

18:56Was Rospo's, when you were interviewing him, was he as, um, pleasant as people talked about

19:05him as?

19:06Yeah.

19:06I mean, it's like, it's exactly how you see in the movie.

19:09He was, he was lovely.

19:10Um, uh, it's funny because he comes off kind of villainous in the film because a lot of

19:15people didn't like him.

19:16But, but, but I mean, Rospo went into it like as passionate and, and as committed as everybody.

19:23And yeah, I mean, Rospo had his own like ego and his own, you know, issues and stuff, but

19:28like, uh, and as much as the crew didn't like him, Rospo was never in it just for a paycheck.

19:33Rospo wanted to make a great film and he wanted to help John make a great film because nothing

19:37Rospo did, didn't go through John.

19:39Right.

19:40John okayed absolutely everything in that movie.

19:42So like the people that were like, watch the movie and be like, oh, Rospo, blah, blah,

19:46blah, blah, blah.

19:46It's just like, no, no, no, no.

19:48You, you can, you can, you can say whatever you want about Rospo, but the buck stops with

19:51John.

19:52This is John's movie.

19:54This is John's vision.

19:55And, and it's important to kind of, and he takes responsibility for all of it, the good

19:59and the bad.

20:00Yeah.

20:00Um, I just think that, you know, watching that movie, there's, I feel like a lot more

20:04good than bad.

20:06For sure.

20:07Yeah, I agree.

20:08I agree.

20:09Well, I don't want to take up all your time.

20:11Um, I want to ask two more questions.

20:14Um, number one, when you were interviewing, uh, Borman at his estate, did you hold Excalibur?

20:20I did not.

20:21I was too nervous.

20:22I wish I had like, I, in fact, it wasn't even my idea to put them in frame.

20:26My DP Seamus who's, who's Borman's DP was like, what did we put these in?

20:30And I'm like, oh yeah, that's a good idea.

20:31I was like, I didn't even think of it.

20:33I'm like, oh yeah, that's great.

20:34And now everyone's like, yes.

20:36And the Zardoz thing.

20:37I'm just like, I'm just like, you know, I'll take credit, but I didn't think of it.

20:40And I'm really glad that Seamus did.

20:42Yeah.

20:42It was great.

20:43It's just sitting there next to it.

20:44Yeah.

20:44It was great.

20:45A great statement.

20:46Um, and also the last question is one that you asked everybody.

20:49Is the heretic a good movie?

20:51I think there are two ways to look at any piece of art.

20:53One is, does it work for an audience?

20:56Does it work the way it's supposed to, or is it kind of good?

20:59It's not really good.

21:00It's not, it's not about being good or not good.

21:02Uh, it doesn't work the way it's intended to, but I think it's one of the most interesting

21:06films I've ever seen.

21:07It's certainly the most interesting story of a movie being made I've ever heard.

21:12And as such, I think it's kind of a vital and necessary film for anybody who's a cinephile,

21:18especially of the movies of the seventies and the new Hollywood.

21:21It's like, I feel like this is an important film in that regard.

21:24I can't defend all of it, but I think it's, I, you know, I think it's a really watchable,

21:33really interesting film.

21:34That's what I think.

21:35Perfect.

21:36Uh, great.

21:37I, I agree with you a hundred percent.

21:38Um, well, I appreciate it.

21:40Thank you for the time.

21:40Give my best to Greg.

21:42And, um, I, I've been, we've been friends on Facebook for a while.

21:45So I, I've been seeing the inception of this film kind of come together too.

21:50I've been very excited.

21:51Well, you and I are.

21:52Yeah.

21:53Oh, cool.

21:53Okay.

21:55Very cool.

21:55I'm on, I'm not on Facebook as much as I'd like, but I'm glad we are.

21:58No worries.

21:59No worries.

22:00It was great talking to you.

22:01Thank you very much.

22:02Thank you, Joel.

22:02I'll talk to you later.

22:03All right.

22:04Bye-bye.

A Conversation with “Boorman and the Devil” director David Kittredge.

Category

Transcript

Comments

2026 Interviews

Recommended