- 3 years ago
In this latest episode of the Global Conversation, Euronews speaks with Azerbaijan's President Ilham Aliyev and Armenia's Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan
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00:00 Tensions are still palpable here in the Nagorno-Karabakh, the stage of multiple devastating conflicts
00:06 between Armenia and Azerbaijan.
00:09 The Nagorno-Karabakh is internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan, but parts of it remain
00:15 under the control of ethnic Armenians after the latest round of conflict in 2020, which
00:21 is an open wound for both sides who say they were fighting for what's rightfully theirs.
00:27 Today, we meet the leaders of both countries involved in this dispute to discuss whether
00:33 peace can be achieved, and how.
00:39 Mr. President, thank you very much for having us here.
00:42 I'm very happy to finally get this opportunity.
00:46 I've been waiting for this moment for a very long time.
00:49 This region has been the stage of some of the most violent episodes in the South Caucasus
00:56 recent history.
00:58 And the tensions haven't really gone away completely since the 2020 peace deal.
01:03 To what do you attribute this constant hostility?
01:08 The declaration signed on the 10th of November 2020 was not actually providing sustainable
01:16 peace.
01:17 It wasn't a peace treaty.
01:18 It was a declaration, actually, de facto, that was a capitulation act by Armenia.
01:24 Therefore, we started to put forward some initiatives in order to find the final solution
01:34 to our conflict with Armenia, like mutual recognition of territorial integrity, sovereignty,
01:41 international borders, delimitation of borders, non-use of force or threat of force.
01:47 And we put that proposal on the table.
01:49 So we, the country which suffered 30 years of occupation and which restored justice by
01:56 force, we were the authors of new peace process.
02:01 I would not say it is going very smoothly.
02:05 We're still optimistic because we are now engaged in very active negotiations on the
02:12 level of foreign ministers of both countries.
02:15 The document signed on November 9th, 2020 is not a peace treaty.
02:30 It's not a peace deal, as you said.
02:37 In its legal sense, but not so much as de facto, a number of its provisions are gravely,
02:48 grossly violated.
02:50 I agree with you that it can be and it is a certain concept of the future peace of architecture.
02:58 And unfortunately, many provisions are regularly violated by Azerbaijan.
03:05 They are currently violated.
03:08 Now you see, you said in your question, speaking of Nagorno-Karabakh, and everyone understands
03:17 that.
03:18 But for Azerbaijan, for instance, Azerbaijan continues to claim there is no Nagorno-Karabakh.
03:26 You have just been back from Brussels, where you met the president of Azerbaijan.
03:33 You have been meeting several times under the mediation of the EU as well.
03:39 These peace talks have been filling many people with hope of lasting peace in this region.
03:49 From what you're saying, we are wrong to be hopeful.
03:53 Can there be peace?
03:54 And what was, what can you tell us about what came out of these talks in Brussels?
04:00 Not only there can be, but there must be peace.
04:07 This is my belief and my position.
04:10 And this is what I believe in.
04:12 But for this to happen, it's also important for the international community to be aware
04:17 of important nuances, to be clear about why there isn't progress at a sufficient pace.
04:29 Let me go back to our penultimate meeting in Brussels, when European Council President
04:34 Charles Michel was present, and myself and the president of Azerbaijan agreed.
04:40 Or rather, we reached an understanding that Armenia and Azerbaijan will mutually recognize
04:47 territories, the territory of Armenia, 29,800 kilometers and 86,600 square kilometers of
04:54 Azerbaijan, the territorial integrity of each other.
05:02 Up to this point, the president of Azerbaijan has publicly not confirmed that understanding.
05:07 She has not denied it either.
05:10 Now this is a subtlety that creates a certain lack of trust.
05:20 I think it is right thing to be hopeful.
05:24 These meetings actually allow us to touch upon very sensitive issues.
05:31 For example?
05:32 Like future parameters of the boundaries, because the border between Armenia and Azerbaijan
05:41 has not been defined, because as soon as the Soviet Union collapsed, we faced this aggression.
05:47 So how the border will look like, what will be the real situation on the ground, what
05:54 will be the situation with communications?
05:58 Because Armenia has an obligation, which is signed as a result of the Second Karabakh
06:03 War, to allow us access to our exclave, Nakhchivan, but still it is not happening.
06:11 So main concentration on paragraphs of peace treaty are made by the ministers.
06:19 Our meetings, they just create, I think, a good atmosphere.
06:22 But if we see a constructive approach from Armenian side, and most important, if they
06:30 totally put down all their aspirations to contest our territorial integrity, then we
06:38 can find a peace solution very soon, maybe even by the end of the year.
06:42 What does the EU bring to the negotiating table?
06:46 Actually EU was not part of the mediation process during the times of occupation, when
06:51 we had negotiations since 1992.
06:55 It was the initiative of President of European Council Charles Michel, who invited us, and
07:04 we supported that, because we think that taking into account the level of cooperation between
07:11 Azerbaijan and EU and Armenia and EU.
07:13 And I thought that EU can be the best, because our relations with EU are based on mutual
07:20 respect and mutual trust and mutual interest.
07:25 So this initiative now is transforming into a very active format of dialogue, because
07:32 we meet not only in Brussels, we also meet, for instance, at the sidelines of the European
07:38 Peace Initiative format.
07:40 Last time it was in Chisinau.
07:43 And I think it's important, because we do not allow situation to stagnate, because if
07:50 it is stagnation, if it's again kind of a break, then we are not guaranteed from any
07:57 dangerous scenario.
08:00 I would like to start off by emphasizing that the advantages of mediation have long been
08:05 known to everyone.
08:07 But all mediations come with certain shortcomings.
08:14 And if you'll allow me, I'll speak about the shortcomings.
08:20 I assume that effective mediation is when there's failure to honor an understanding
08:24 and will be followed by at least a show of political attitude towards the one that fails
08:30 to honor that commitment.
08:32 At the Brussels platform, for instance, we are not seeing this.
08:37 I keep raising this question.
08:43 Let me even break a secret to you.
08:46 We've even prepared a document that we called an audit, where we enumerate that understanding
08:52 states were reached at the Brussels platform, but were subsequently not honored.
08:58 And it's quite a thick package.
09:01 It turned out to be quite a thick package, which is alarming.
09:06 Do you think that the fact that the West has been playing a bigger role here, the United
09:12 States and Europe, has that antagonized a more traditional regional power broker, Russia,
09:21 or the other way around?
09:23 The fact that Russia is more involved, or one would say bogged down in Ukraine, has
09:28 given more space for other players to come and try to help you and Azerbaijan potentially
09:36 find common ground.
09:41 Let me remind you that these international competition scenes are not linked with us
09:44 directly.
09:48 Because you know that the OSCE Minsk Group co-chairs were there and were active.
09:55 And they are being created to address the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict.
10:02 But since February 24, 2022, the co-chairs simply stopped interacting.
10:10 Some of them decided they do not want to interact with the other co-chairs.
10:14 And that's when a problem came up.
10:17 Actually, Russia was a mediator of ceasefire agreement or declaration of 10 November 2020.
10:31 And it was not United States, it was not EU.
10:36 And our first meetings with my Armenian colleague were organized by Russia, in Russia.
10:45 So after Russian-Ukrainian war, situation has changed.
10:48 And we started to see that United States and Europe became more active.
10:53 And actually for us, it's not actually a big difference who will lead the process or who
10:59 will, to a certain degree, monopolize the negotiation process.
11:05 Important is to come to a result.
11:06 I understand you have a long, historical and complex relationship with Russia.
11:12 How would you say is the Russia influence in the region at the moment?
11:17 As far as Azerbaijan is concerned, not many things have changed.
11:22 Because our relations with Russia were already balanced.
11:26 They were based on recognition of each other's national interests.
11:32 And of course, territorial integrity and sovereignty.
11:39 Russia is a neighbor to Azerbaijan and a partner.
11:45 Of course, by virtue of the events in Ukraine, not just Russia.
11:53 But other geopolitical actors' interests in our region has been declining.
11:58 Because in practice, Ukraine is where all the international attention is focused.
12:02 And yes, that is a factor.
12:09 Let's talk about the situation on the ground.
12:11 The US, the European Union have all demanded guarantees over the freedom of movement in
12:17 the Lachin corridor.
12:19 What do you know about what's happening in this, which is a crucial gateway for people
12:25 inside the Nagorno-Karabakh?
12:26 Now, what's happening in Nagorno-Karabakh, there's a humanitarian crisis in Nagorno-Karabakh.
12:34 What is a humanitarian crisis?
12:37 No food is being supplied to Nagorno-Karabakh.
12:39 No food.
12:41 There's no external supply of food.
12:43 A number of essential commodities are not being supplied either.
12:47 Baby food, for instance.
12:50 Medication is also unavailable.
12:54 No hygiene supplies either.
12:58 No other essential goods are there.
13:02 Natural gas supplied to Nagorno-Karabakh was interrupted by Azerbaijan.
13:08 Electricity supplied to Nagorno-Karabakh was also interrupted by Azerbaijan.
13:12 The supply of fuel was interrupted by Azerbaijan.
13:18 So in this sense, there's a real threat of hunger we're facing there, as well as health
13:22 problems and so on and so forth.
13:28 You know they deny all this, right?
13:32 Azerbaijan keeps denying that they're doing any of it.
13:34 They keep insisting that the Akcan Road is accessible.
13:41 I don't know what you're referring to, because I'm speaking about the document that I signed,
13:50 which has the status of an international document.
13:57 It reads clearly that the Lachin Corridor, which is under the control of the Russian
14:00 peacekeepers, and it's not just the road, it's a five-kilometer-wide area, that it must
14:09 be out of Azerbaijan's control, and it must ensure a link between Nagorno-Karabakh and
14:14 Armenia.
14:19 Freedom of movement is not blocked.
14:22 Since we established the border checkpoint on the 23rd of April, there have been more
14:27 than 2,000 residents of Karabakh who easily moved to Armenia and back.
14:36 On 15th of June, Armenia made another military provocation and wounded one of our border
14:44 security guards, and temporarily the road was closed for investigation.
14:51 But then it was reopened.
14:53 Red Cross restarted again to transport medications and evacuate patients who need treatment in
15:02 Armenia.
15:04 But unfortunately, Red Cross trucks, when checked, we found smuggling goods like cigarettes,
15:14 iPhones, and gasoline.
15:17 Red Cross admitted that, and they communicated with us saying that they do not bear any responsibility
15:23 because these people...
15:24 The trucks were being used by...
15:26 Yes.
15:27 But these trucks had their badge, logos, and the drivers had their logos on their uniform.
15:35 Some 5,000 people lost their lives in 2020 on both sides.
15:40 I was here, I came to Nagorno-Karabakh, and I met many mothers of fallen Armenian soldiers.
15:48 I've also witnessed the pain and the devastation on the other side, on your side, through the
15:54 work of my colleagues here in Azerbaijan.
15:57 But I remember speaking to one mother in particular who told me she blamed politicians for the
16:02 war and for the death of her son, saying that politicians should deal with things in a diplomatic
16:08 way and not fall into the trap of a war.
16:12 What would you say your mission is?
16:14 Is it to win a war or to bring lasting peace?
16:18 Well, to win a war was a mission of my life, of my political life, which ended successfully.
16:27 So we won the war, we restored justice, and we restored our territorial integrity.
16:33 And now we talk about peace.
16:35 If Armenia wants peace, we will reach it, because we do not have any territorial claims
16:41 to Armenia, and we don't want them to have any territorial claims to Armenia.
16:47 People who live in Karabakh, in an area which is controlled now temporarily by Russian peacekeepers,
16:55 they live in Azerbaijan, and they should choose whether to live as citizens of Azerbaijan,
17:02 as ethnic minority, as any other ethnic minority which Azerbaijan is rich for, or to leave.
17:14 You know, in any case, war is wrong.
17:17 If there's a war, somebody somewhere did something wrong, or several people in several places
17:23 did something wrong.
17:26 But from the other side, what's the cause of war?
17:37 The cause of war is the impossibility of reaching durable peace, or of maintaining peace.
17:43 And that impossibility, is it genuine?
17:46 Is it real?
17:47 Is it authentic?
17:55 These are the other questions.
17:58 My son was in the war as well.
18:00 My wife was in the war as well.
18:02 And now you're asking a question, a very serious question.
18:13 It's a legitimate question indeed, but I think there is so much depth to it.
18:23 Throughout our existence, humanity, humankind, have spoken about the need to avoid wars,
18:28 about the need to reach peace.
18:36 And let's assume, I mean, this building, where the politicians were bad, or are bad.
18:46 I want to know if you have a message to the other side, but not to the political leaders
18:53 and the leaders and the politicians that you meet in these talks, but to the people.
19:01 There are sentences that people normally say, "Oh, you have long lived here, and we will
19:06 long be living here."
19:11 I think all the words have already been said.
19:14 By the way, there is perhaps something which I would address to the public of Armenia and
19:19 the public of Azerbaijan, because the publics of Armenia and Azerbaijan both must demand
19:24 peace from their governments.
19:28 It should be articulated as a public demand, and peace, flexibility, and skill to deliver
19:34 that requirement.
19:35 Well, I never thought about that, because that's the first time in my life I am asked
19:45 this question, a message to Armenians in Armenia, that we want to have peace with the state.
19:56 Another message to them is to clearly realize the current geopolitical situation and the
20:02 balance of forces.
20:04 For many years, leaders of Armenia were persuading their people that they have the strongest
20:10 army in the world, that if the war starts, they will come to Baku.
20:15 The war destroyed that narrative.
20:18 We don't want another war, neither today nor ever in the future.
20:26 For Armenians in Karabakh, they should not follow their so-called leaders.
20:33 These leaders were lying to them all the time.
20:37 So Karabakh Armenians should understand that being part of Azerbaijan society with security
20:46 guarantees, we understand it, with their rights, including educational, cultural, religious,
20:53 municipal rights, they will live normal life, and they will also stop to be hostage of manipulation.
21:02 We offer them normal life, and I think if they listen to me, they should understand
21:11 and they know that I mean what I say.
21:16 President Aliyev, thank you very much for speaking to Euronews.
21:19 Thank you.
21:20 Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan, thank you very much for speaking to Euronews.
21:23 Yes, I'm strong.
21:24 Thank you.
21:25 Thank you.
21:25 [BLANK_AUDIO]