00:00We sat down with Sir Richard Dearlove, the former head of British intelligence and co-host of the
00:04One Decision podcast. I mean, if you look at the European intelligence agencies for largely
00:10historical reasons, there's no question that the United Kingdom in MI6 has, let's say, the agency
00:20with the broadest international remit, with representation in many countries, and with a depth
00:29and length of experience which is unmatched by any other European service. I mean, bearing in mind
00:37MI6 as a historical creation that goes back to 1909, and there's no other European service that
00:44has a history with that depth. So I'm not surprised. Of course, it's the best European service.
00:49I would say that, wouldn't I?
00:52Why is human intelligence so important? What makes it so valuable?
01:00Because I think you can only really find out the sort of detail of what you're searching for by
01:11talking to the people who've actually got access to the decision-making process in the foreign
01:18government. So let's say the current war in Iran. I would imagine that, let's say Mossad has human
01:28sources amongst the Iranian leadership. You therefore get a much more integrated and clear picture of how
01:36the leadership of the IRGC is thinking in the conduct of the war. I mean, intercept can be valuable and
01:45really
01:46important, but you might only have a partial picture. And, you know, data analysis doesn't give you that human dimension.
01:57Is it getting harder to recruit and train people to be successful operations agents? I mean, do people still want
02:05to be spies? It seems like in an era where everybody wants to tell everybody everything. Is it hard to
02:11say to a smart young person, we want you to do a lot of risky, amazing stuff, but you can't
02:15put it on Instagram?
02:17Yeah, I guess that's a good point. But I think if the career is regarded as prestigious, if the career
02:26offered is good. I mean, I can honestly say I was in MI6 for 38 years. And despite the discipline,
02:36the restraints, the secrecy, I probably never had a boring day at work.
02:42How many people could say that in a 38-year career? So there is an attraction. I think it requires
02:50a special type of character, you know, that's suited to the word. Of course, not everybody is. And the selection
02:59is pretty fierce. But certainly in the UK, it's maintained its reputation of an attractive career. In some other countries
03:08where the intelligence community has been more politicized,
03:12I wouldn't say that's necessarily true. Well, speaking of, I'm wondering what your assessment is right now of cooperation between
03:19MI6 and the CIA. I know when you were head of the agency, you spent a lot of time in
03:23Washington, you spent a lot of time both in Langley and in the White House. But is that cooperation as
03:30good as it used to be? And does the CIA have a retention and recruiting problem at the moment?
03:37Well, the last of your questions first. I'm told that the CIA does have a recruiting problem at the moment.
03:44But that's maybe because there has recently, I think rather shockingly, been a purge of senior officers on the basis
03:55of the degree of loyalty to mega-republicanism.
04:01I mean, it shouldn't be a party issue. I mean, it shouldn't be a party issue. But I think it's
04:05become so. And I think the previous or departing DDA, that's the head of the operational bit of CIA, I
04:13think it was called Tom Silvestre, who should have finished his career in London, has been denied the job and
04:22has retired, because it wasn't absolutely clear that he was a sort of uncritical mega-republican supporter.
04:30I find that very alarming and not good for the service at all. I mean, the tradition in MI6 is
04:40that you work whatever party is in government, but you don't express a political opinion.
04:46And OK, you're denied that opportunity publicly to advertise your own views. But that's part of the discipline of being
04:55a national intelligence officer. And I think the CIA at the moment certainly seems to have a problem, I guess,
05:04that will pass, because it has a tradition of producing and training very capable field officers.
05:11When you look at other intelligence agencies, including MI6, at the moment, do they trust the CIA? Do they trust
05:18sharing intelligence with the United States?
05:23Yes, I think they do. I would say that over time there have always been issues of complexity in those
05:34sorts of relationships, because there can be divergence in political aims, and there can be problems which arise sometimes which
05:45are not publicized.
05:46I mean, during my time, I mean, during my time, although we were very, very close to CIA, I'm talking
05:52about 9-11, or let's say the war in Afghanistan, war in Iraq.
05:55If you go back a step before that, there were problems between the U.K. and the U.S. over
06:03the conflict in the Balkans, where there were political differences and problems arose, which were more of a political nature.
06:11This isn't unknown, but, I mean, I would have thought that both sides will be trying to make the operation
06:19work.
06:20But sometimes you have a view in the White House, or maybe you have a view in No. 10 Downing
06:28Street, which can cause problems.
06:32I mean, these relationships can be quite complicated.
06:35And, you know, objectives, particularly short-term ones, can diverge.
06:40Would you still recommend a career in intelligence for a young person, either in Washington or in London?
06:46Yes, I think I would.
06:47I mean, if you're interested in geopolitics, if you're interested in the state of the world, if you are cool
06:55-headed, if you feel at home in foreign countries,
07:02and you are comfortable in those sorts of environments, that Korea can still offer a lot.
07:08And I think maybe some of the current difficulties that may have arisen between Washington and London, I wouldn't like
07:15to overemphasize the Washington relationship.
07:17It's still quite a place on the intelligence side, probably.
07:21You know, these things come and go.
07:23And I'm sure that, you know, the present administration in the U.S., I think we regard as something of
07:29an aberration.
07:30But there are still areas of cooperation that should be hugely important.
07:34Maybe I missed my calling, although I do like to talk.
07:37I'm not great at keeping secrets.
07:39Christina, I think you would have been great at the job.
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