- 6 weeks ago
- #considerthis
The government has recently promised to abolish the Universities & University Colleges Act 1971, better known by its BM acronym, AUKU. However repeal is only the first step, with a new higher education framework now expected to take its place. So will abolishing AUKU truly make Malaysian public universities freer, or could the same culture of control simply survive under a new law? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Zaharom Nain, Adjunct Professor at Taylor's University, who was on the 2018-2019 technical committee to study the repeal of AUKU. He is joined by Alyaah Hani, President of Liga Mahasiswa Malaysia.
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00:10Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This.
00:14This is the show where we want you to consider and then reconsider what you know of the news of
00:19the day.
00:19The government has recently promised to abolish the University and University Colleges Act of 1971.
00:26It's better known by its BM acronym AUKU. It's a law that's long been associated with restrictions on student activism
00:33and university autonomy.
00:35But the repeal is only the first step because a new higher education framework is now expected to take its
00:42place.
00:42So the question we want to ask tonight is whether abolishing AUKU will truly make Malaysian public universities freer
00:49or could the same culture of control simply survive under a new law.
00:56So that's what we want to discuss with my guests today.
00:59I have on the show with me Zarum Nain who is adjunct professor at Taylor's University.
01:05He was on the technical committee that was formed after the 2018 election to study the repeal of AUKU.
01:12He's also the former chair of the Malaysian academic movement better known as GERA.
01:16I also have with me Alia Hani who is the president of Liga Mahasiswa Malaysia.
01:22Both of you welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining me.
01:26Hani may I begin with you. Since you are in university you are going to be directly affected by this
01:32news.
01:33When you and other student groups who have been demanding the repeal of AUKU,
01:38when you heard the Prime Minister's announcement, talk to me about that.
01:41When you heard that finally this law is said to be abolished, did you feel like the government had finally
01:46heard students' voices?
01:48I would say there's a sense of relief and a little excitement.
01:53But I would say that we're not shocked by this news as well because this is one of the early
01:58promises of Madani government
02:00when they're campaigning for the election.
02:02So I would rather say this is a late reform expected from them, especially from Anna Ibrahim.
02:09But ultimately I would be very careful with the framing that this is when the government finally listens to students.
02:15Because I would say this is actually not a gift by the government.
02:20But this is something that the students, many generations of student movements have been fighting for.
02:26It has been like more than five decades now, 55 years of resistance.
02:29So this is sort of we want to reclaim the narrative back.
02:33This is not a gift from the government, but rather this is a victory of our years of resistance and
02:39struggles.
02:39But this also, the distinction of that is very important because it will determine what comes after it.
02:46If we say that this is a gift from the government, then we sort of got to be like a
02:51grateful recipient of whatever going to come after AUKU.
02:54But if we say this is a victory by us, then we sort of have a say on what will
03:00come after it.
03:01What kind of students, what kind of university are we seeking for with the new act?
03:06Definitely. This is the very first step, isn't it? It was just an announcement.
03:10Zahram, what about you? You've, as I mentioned in the introduction, have been on the committee to study the repeal
03:16of AUKU.
03:17How significant is this announcement?
03:19And I think to build on the point that Hani just made, this is a long time coming.
03:26This is a long fight. And you've been fighting for this for quite a while.
03:30So talk to me a little bit about that. How significant do you think this is?
03:35It's potentially significant, I'd say.
03:37Anyway, I'm more cautious than Hani is about this.
03:42Sorry, Adia is about this.
03:44Primarily because we fought for a long time together with students and academics have fought for a long time.
03:51And after the statement by the Prime Minister, it was a statement following that that made me even more cautious.
04:00Just because, you know, the Minister of Higher Education says we're going to put across another law.
04:08And again, it depends on what the philosophical underpinnings of that law is going to be.
04:13If it's just another law that controls academia, we must remember, AUKU is just not about students.
04:19It's a university. And therefore, if they're going to control academia as a whole, universities as a whole, then it's
04:29one step forward, two steps back.
04:30Actually, let's take a look at the AUKU itself.
04:33So, the debate around AUKU, I think, has really focused on whether students can participate in politics.
04:41It's been quite a narrow focus.
04:42Let's broaden it out from the perspective of students, but also from the perspective of university governance.
04:50Zarum, if I may come to you, when we look at AUKU as essentially a framework for governance, talk to
04:58me about why it's important.
04:59And the AUKU of 2026 is not the same AUKU of 1971.
05:07Definitely, it isn't the same AUKU because a few things were so-called repealed or removed from the Act,
05:17student participation in political parties or politics was granted then.
05:22But I think we must remember, before we see this whole thing as a supposed gift,
05:27AUKU came about in 1971, right?
05:29Before that, there was no such thing as an AUKU to determine what students and staff could do, right?
05:36So, it's not a gift.
05:38There were restrictions that were imposed.
05:41And they became more and more over the years, right?
05:43And on top of that, there's also Act 605, yeah?
05:47That one is the one that really curtails the freedoms of academics, yeah?
05:52So, if you just think about repealing AUKU without looking at Act 605,
05:59I think we're not going anywhere near halfway towards achieving what most of us have been trying to achieve, right?
06:05So, a new Act, a new Universities Act, would have to take into account numerous things, I feel, yeah?
06:12At different levels.
06:13Even this AUKU thing, there are different levels of control that even AUKU is part of.
06:18I mean, there are levels of liberation as well.
06:21I mean, at the core of it would be the constitution, the Malaysian constitution,
06:25that guarantees freedom of speech and freedom of association.
06:29Now, in what way has AUKU affected that, right?
06:33And in what way does that affect a new law, as it were, right?
06:39And then, apart from AUKU, related to, but not necessarily apart,
06:44are the peraturan-peraturan in universities themselves that have got nothing to do with AUKU.
06:49It's the universities themselves that say, you know, we will impose this.
06:52So, for example, there are some universities that say,
06:54before you can invite someone over, you have to get permission from us.
06:58And she's experienced this, I have experienced this, yeah?
07:02And not only one university, many universities as well.
07:05So, the administrators will determine who you are going to be inviting,
07:09even for academics, yeah?
07:12Supposed risks to the university.
07:14If I understand what you're saying correctly, you're saying that,
07:16so even the legislation AUKU, it goes beyond that.
07:22It goes beyond the legislation.
07:23It is a culture of control imposed by the administration through rules and regulations.
07:29Am I understanding correctly?
07:30Yeah, I was going to go through all that.
07:32Oh, great.
07:33But never mind.
07:34But let us, please, please.
07:36When we are speaking in terms of governance,
07:38let's not put aside the crazy discretion of minister to appoint the top management inside universities.
07:45So, this will then relate back to that, the management will allow who are the speakers that is allowed on
07:51campus
07:51and who is not allowed on campus.
07:53And these are the culture that we should not forget.
07:55And we know for sure when AUKU is abolished, this does not abolish as we're speaking.
08:01Discretionary powers of the minister.
08:03Because that's culture of it.
08:03So, there's more to talk about.
08:06Can I just ask you from a student perspective?
08:08So, as I mentioned earlier, AUKU has been, I guess, amended throughout the years multiple times,
08:16allowing much more freedoms for students to participate.
08:20But what is the culture currently under this version of AUKU?
08:25Is there a difference between what students are legally allowed to do
08:29and what students feel safe doing on campus?
08:32To be very honest, there's not much of a distinction even after AUKU is actually amended.
08:38Because they can talk a lot on how students are now free to politicise whatever issues that we have on
08:45campus.
08:45But still, when we invited some controversial speaker,
08:49although that controversial is also not defined,
08:52we still have that struggle.
08:55So, like we said earlier, me and Prof have been saying how this culture is still ignited in campus.
09:02And we think this is not going to solve if we amend AUKU again and again and again.
09:10Because it's whole about culture.
09:12And also, our worry is that when the new act is being implemented,
09:17we do not want the same thing to repeat all over again.
09:20So, that's why we emphasise on campus autonomy, student autonomy, academic freedom.
09:25We'll go on about that as well.
09:27So, this new act that you talked about,
09:28the one higher education act that's been announced that will replace AUKU.
09:34Okay, Zarum.
09:35That's a statement.
09:36That's a statement.
09:37That's been made.
09:37I don't know what action has been done.
09:39They're supposedly forming committees again.
09:43Exactly.
09:44On that point, they're forming another committee again.
09:46You were already on a committee that I...
09:49Actually, talk to me a little bit about that.
09:50I'm on another committee.
09:52Brilliant.
09:54How far did that committee get?
09:57How far did the process go before it was a bad thing?
09:59It got very far, actually, from the way that...
10:02From the start when Masley effectively invited...
10:05Took up our invitation to come to UM to give a town hall to academics from different universities.
10:11From that moment to the time when he was essentially removed from office.
10:17So, that was 2019, if I'm not mistaken.
10:19Yeah, just before the...
10:212018, 2019.
10:22So, what...
10:23But things...
10:23Sorry.
10:24Sorry, please go ahead.
10:26We've done a lot of things.
10:27Masley, under Masley, it was just not my committee.
10:31There were loads of committees that were done.
10:33And apart from that, we had consultants coming in at the end of the day
10:37who then came up with, what you call it, a couple of documents ready-made
10:43just to go through the Attorney General's office for the law and so on and so forth.
10:49All were ready, essentially.
10:51Virtually ready.
10:53I would say 99%, if not 100%, ready.
10:55And it was very deliberate.
10:57It was very comprehensive.
11:00It got a lot of stakeholders coming into the picture.
11:03There was okay, of course, a lot of people who were opposed to it
11:08from the so-called state, as it were.
11:10But nonetheless, it went through.
11:13So, what went through a report?
11:14The reports were all there at Dr Masley's office.
11:19And he acknowledged that.
11:22And he wanted to make moves.
11:24And some little moves had been done already.
11:26The low-hanging fruits that were done that led to the amendments that were there.
11:30But then, you know, he lost his job, supposedly.
11:33One, and then...
11:35It all went back to square one.
11:36It all went back to square one.
11:37It was...
11:38Then we had the Sheraton move, right?
11:41New minister comes into the picture.
11:43Gerak puts across a proposal to her to go back to all those things.
11:48She doesn't bother to look at it, right?
11:50We've done a number of memoranda to...
11:53So, anyway, it's there.
11:55It's ready.
11:56And it's like reinventing the wheel.
12:00So, this is the concern, right?
12:01So, what is it that this new committee...
12:05So, what did your committee learn that the government doesn't need to rediscover in 2026?
12:11And when you say you submitted a report,
12:13was that report for the repeal of AUKU?
12:15And what was proposed to replace AUKU?
12:18Yeah, yeah, it was...
12:19What did you propose to replace AUKU?
12:21A new, more liberating act.
12:23So, another framework, another act.
12:25Another framework, because AUKU, like I said,
12:27it's just not about student freedom.
12:29It's about other things, finances and so on and so forth,
12:32the role of universities and so on and so forth.
12:36So, what's in the report was numerous things.
12:39At least in Gerak's case, we said,
12:42one of the first things is,
12:43you've got to get rid of all the vice chancellors, right?
12:46All the political appointees have got to go.
12:48Sorry, could you repeat that one more time?
12:50We've got to get rid of all the vice chancellors,
12:52especially the deputy vice chancellor of student affairs.
12:55Why?
12:56Talk about student affairs.
12:57We said we don't need...
12:59Our argument is that we don't need
13:01a deputy vice chancellor of student affairs.
13:04You might have an office for student affairs
13:06run by not a deputy vice chancellor
13:09because students, you're treating them like kids, right?
13:13And it's all about control.
13:16So, for people outside of academia,
13:18what does the office of the deputy vice chancellor
13:21for student affairs do?
13:23Well, among other things,
13:25it controls student activities.
13:27Student affairs.
13:28It's student affairs, effectively.
13:29At the regulator for students.
13:31Yeah, it is a regulator.
13:32So, all of these programs that we want to invite
13:35goes through them for approval.
13:37So, also in that jawatan kuasa,
13:39if I may quote,
13:40actually, they also propose
13:42the abolishment of student affairs.
13:43To which, before...
13:44The abolishment of student affairs.
13:47Yeah, yeah, yeah.
13:48Because before AUKU,
13:49there's no student affairs.
13:51There's no student affairs department.
13:52Student can run by themselves.
13:54For themselves.
13:55Okay.
13:55So, that's why we also think
13:56and that guiding proposal document
13:59made by Prof's secretariat
14:01was actually our guiding document
14:03as arguments by student movements.
14:05So, we said,
14:06we know what's going to come after AUKU
14:08and they have prepared this.
14:09These are our arguments.
14:10So, why is it so late?
14:13Your terms are over now.
14:15Zaram, can I come back to
14:17removing all the vice chancellors?
14:20That seems a radical demand.
14:23Can you talk to me
14:24why the committee proposed this?
14:27Well, in the first place,
14:29most of the top leaders
14:31in public universities,
14:34vice chancellors,
14:34deputy vice chancellors,
14:36are essentially appointed by politicians.
14:39The minister himself, right?
14:41Which is not as it should be.
14:44Once you have political...
14:46and also talk about the lembaga,
14:48the board of directors
14:49of those universities,
14:50the political appointees there as well,
14:52even up to today.
14:54The problem with political appointees
14:56is that they are political appointees, right?
14:59They're based on their being political appointees,
15:02not based on their potential
15:04to make the university move
15:05and to make students move.
15:07What was the recommendation
15:08to replace these appointments
15:11by ministers?
15:12Set up a national search committee,
15:15made up of distinguished people,
15:20not necessarily academics,
15:21civil society, students,
15:23set up that search committee
15:26and that search committee
15:27will essentially look for
15:29vice chancellors,
15:30deputy vice chancellors,
15:31and so on and so forth
15:32and not leave it to
15:35various groups,
15:35including the special branch
15:37to choose them.
15:38Oh, is that the current...
15:40Is that the status quo?
15:42Okay.
15:42Yeah, it is.
15:43This is also the thing
15:44that we're fighting for,
15:45the democratisation
15:46of university governance.
15:48We want the vice chancellors
15:50of student affairs
15:51being appointed
15:51by the students themselves.
15:53But we cannot go for that extent
15:55when the student election
15:55is still being
15:58averaged by
15:59the management,
16:01so it's hard.
16:02That's another job
16:03of the Halewa Pelajar,
16:04that student elections
16:05are there under their purview.
16:07I liked what you said
16:09that the students
16:10are still being treated
16:11as kids,
16:13as children,
16:13when they're not being
16:14treated as adults.
16:15They're essentially
16:16allowed to vote.
16:18Yeah, yeah.
16:19We're allowed to get married.
16:20Absolutely.
16:2118-year-old adults
16:22to be treated like an adult.
16:23Let's talk a little bit
16:24about the other reforms.
16:26Are there...
16:27Apart from the...
16:28So are you arguing
16:29that the very top layer
16:30of leadership
16:31sets the tone
16:32for the culture
16:33in universities?
16:34I think it goes beyond that.
16:36It goes beyond that.
16:36In what way?
16:37The tone of culture
16:39of the university
16:40is essentially,
16:42I feel,
16:43if you look outside,
16:45starts from the school itself,
16:46from schools themselves.
16:48This whole culture
16:49of compliance,
16:50this whole culture
16:51of submission,
16:53this whole culture
16:54of not wanting
16:55to question,
16:56it's not something
16:57that just started up
16:58in universities.
16:59When you have
17:00a whole education system
17:02that's about conformity,
17:04that's about following
17:05certain rules
17:06and regulations,
17:08invariably,
17:08that will seep
17:09into the university system
17:10as it has,
17:11I would argue,
17:12as we have argued.
17:13And subsequently,
17:15you get a bunch of...
17:16Not a bunch,
17:16a group of a community,
17:18a community of young people
17:20who are not allowed
17:21to be young adults,
17:23and they agree to that
17:25in most cases.
17:27And that's one.
17:28And then,
17:29on the outside as well,
17:31there's this whole question
17:32of what philosophy
17:35undergirds universities
17:36at the moment here,
17:37and that the neoliberal
17:39sort of philosophy,
17:40for example.
17:41You go to university,
17:42you learn,
17:43you train,
17:43and you get out
17:45and get a job
17:46in the industry.
17:46Our focus is on industry,
17:48supposedly,
17:49not on society as a whole.
17:50Even when we get advisors
17:52in many universities,
17:53top of those advisors
17:54will be industry heads.
17:59You seldom get CSOs,
18:02people,
18:03professionals coming in.
18:05So you see,
18:06the culture is created
18:09from every segment of society.
18:12Then, of course,
18:13underlying all of it
18:14is what we call
18:15kuditocracy,
18:15which we criticize.
18:18We can't run away from that.
18:20The whole ethnicizing
18:22of university entrances,
18:26university access,
18:27which is what we feel
18:30we have to look at access itself.
18:33Not only free access,
18:34but fair access as well.
18:38The kind of system
18:40we've got now
18:41where we ethnicize things,
18:42it's fine,
18:43but what about
18:44other
18:44disadvantaged groups?
18:49Students from
18:50East Malaysia,
18:51for example,
18:52orang-asli students,
18:53handicapped,
18:54disabled students,
18:55disabled people.
18:56I think you have to
18:57widen that whole notion
18:59of giving
19:00a particular,
19:02what do you call it,
19:05discrimination
19:05for certain things.
19:07It should never
19:09just be about
19:10kulit.
19:10Not only students,
19:12academic staff as well.
19:14The whole
19:15taking in
19:16of academic staff.
19:17That whole notion
19:18of some ethnic groups
19:19have to be there
19:21and others are
19:22marginalized,
19:23I think that's crazy.
19:24This feels like
19:26you're proposing
19:27a complete revamp,
19:29a complete redesign
19:30of not just
19:32the governance
19:33of universities
19:34but the culture
19:35surrounding universities
19:36all starting
19:38with the new
19:39act to
19:40replace AUKU.
19:42And
19:42what are you
19:44hoping for
19:44in terms of
19:45having
19:46the voices heard?
19:48So we started
19:48the conversation
19:49in the beginning
19:49as whether or not
19:50you feel like
19:51students' voices
19:52were heard.
19:52But when we
19:54think about
19:55whether the input
19:56from young people
19:58who will be affected
19:59by the way
20:00universities are run,
20:02are you hopeful
20:03or are you
20:04seeing signs
20:06where you're
20:07being heard,
20:08you're being listened to
20:09and which groups
20:10are being listened to?
20:11Is there a danger
20:12where some groups
20:14who are seen
20:14to be easier
20:15to deal with
20:16are the ones
20:17being consulted?
20:19To be very honest
20:19and to be very frank,
20:20there's not much
20:21of a progress
20:22since the announcement
20:23on our side,
20:24on the student movement
20:25side at least.
20:26And we know
20:27they have always
20:28been picking
20:28their students'
20:29representation
20:30to which
20:30are most convenient
20:31to them
20:32and to what
20:33they have already
20:33proposed on the table
20:34to which now
20:35we do not have
20:36any idea
20:36what are they
20:37going to propose
20:38on the table
20:38to which that's
20:39one thing
20:40that we are worried
20:40about.
20:41But we cannot
20:42have them
20:43to have
20:44the ones,
20:45the students
20:45that are convenient
20:46to them
20:47because these students
20:48cannot represent
20:49the working class
20:50student,
20:50these students
20:51cannot represent
20:51the students
20:52with disabilities,
20:54FAC rep student,
20:56the college students.
20:58So all of these
20:59are also one
21:00of our concern
21:01and one of
21:02our most urgent demand
21:05to involve us
21:06in the secretariat
21:08as well
21:08because we do not
21:09want to only
21:10be given
21:12participation
21:13or representation
21:14but we want
21:14it to be meaningful.
21:15We want us
21:17to have a say
21:18on what you're
21:18going to draft
21:19because this is
21:20not only involving
21:21us,
21:21not only involving
21:22academicians,
21:23the university
21:23but also the next
21:25generations of
21:25students as well.
21:26So we don't want
21:27them to be in
21:28an echo chamber
21:29so this is our
21:30critics to them
21:30as well
21:31but we are trying
21:31our very best
21:32to urge them
21:33to let us in.
21:35Let us in
21:36although that
21:36sounds very
21:37degrading.
21:39Zaroom,
21:39what is so scary
21:41about universities
21:43and student power?
21:44What is being
21:49controlled here?
21:50What is being
21:51repressed here?
21:53What potential
21:53is so scary
21:55to unleash?
21:56It's something
21:56that's been around
21:57for a long, long time
21:58certainly since 1969.
22:00There's the fear
22:01that there are
22:02alternative explanations.
22:04The need to
22:07be able to control
22:08the narrative
22:10as it were.
22:10Overly control
22:11the narrative
22:14for particular
22:15reasons.
22:16They might say
22:17it's because
22:18we want to lead
22:19the country
22:19the right way.
22:20Others might say
22:22this is so that
22:22you can maintain
22:23your power.
22:25That's the fear
22:27I think,
22:27the fear of losing
22:28power effectively
22:28personally I feel
22:30at a wider level.
22:32But why control
22:33universities?
22:35Because universities
22:36are there for
22:37the next generation.
22:38generations to come
22:40and Malaysia
22:42has got a pretty
22:43large generation
22:45of youngsters
22:46here who
22:48those in control
22:49who believe
22:50need to follow
22:51a particular narrative
22:52so that they don't
22:54break away from us.
22:55They don't change
22:56things.
22:56They don't say
22:57some of the things
22:58that both of us
22:59are saying.
23:00But really
23:01it's a fear
23:02of liberation
23:04and as a consequence
23:06public universities
23:08are not performing
23:09the key role
23:10they should be
23:11performing
23:12that is to provide
23:13a public service.
23:15So that is the fear
23:17they have.
23:18The fear I have
23:20is that
23:21all of that
23:22will lead to
23:23essentially
23:24a lot of mediocrity
23:26within our society
23:27and the killing
23:29of minds
23:30that are creative
23:30the killing
23:31of minds
23:32that can be
23:32world class.
23:35I think
23:36one should
23:36consider that.
23:37There are a lot
23:38of young people
23:39now
23:39a lot
23:40then as well
23:41who have
23:42so much talent
23:43and you kill
23:46that talent
23:46by all these controls.
23:47Now that's not right
23:49that's just not right
23:50not right
23:51for you to do that
23:52not right for the
23:53generations that follow
23:54their generation as well.
23:56You're removing
23:57the access
23:58the ability
23:59for them
24:00to think creatively
24:01to come up with
24:01new alternative
24:02ways of looking at things
24:04because you want
24:05to control them.
24:06And if you're saying
24:07I want to control them
24:08because I'm right
24:08you really?
24:10I mean look at the
24:10situation this country
24:11is in now
24:12look at the situation
24:12universities are in now
24:14really you are right?
24:16Give me another
24:17I see you nodding.
24:19I mean not just that
24:20our struggle is not only
24:22about AUKU as well
24:23because the
24:24ex-activists are now
24:25in power
24:26so they also understand
24:27the strategy
24:28that we have in plan
24:29so now they're going
24:30other way
24:31apart from AUKU
24:32they are now
24:33civil suit.
24:34So the students
24:35like Liga Mahasiswa
24:36University Malaya
24:37they have the possibility
24:38of facing civil suit
24:40by University Malaya
24:41for trademark infringement.
24:43So this is no longer
24:44about student
24:46student's autonomy
24:47to like discuss
24:48political things
24:49they now have
24:50other strategy
24:51to go against students.
24:53So this is also
24:53the thing that we are
24:54looking for
24:55in the next new act.
24:58All of this supposedly
24:59should be
24:59go down the trash.
25:01Okay.
25:01Alright well
25:02so right now
25:03we have that announcement
25:04we have no further
25:05details as to
25:06what will replace
25:07AUKU
25:07or even how
25:08they will go about
25:09repealing
25:10this law.
25:12But thank you both
25:13for coming on
25:13and giving us
25:14some insight
25:15into the people
25:16who have been
25:17fighting
25:18against
25:20fighting for
25:20the repeal
25:21of this law.
25:21And we will
25:22continue fighting.
25:23Both of you
25:23thank you so much
25:24for your time.
25:25That's all the time
25:26we have for you
25:26on this episode
25:27of Consider This.
25:28I'm Melissa Idris
25:29signing off
25:30for the evening.
25:31Thank you so much
25:31for watching.
25:31Good luck.
25:33Good luck.
25:33Good luck.
25:34Good luck.
25:36Good luck.
25:38Good luck.
25:39Good luck.
25:40Good luck.
25:40Good luck.
25:41Good luck.
25:42Good luck.
25:46Good luck.