- 2 weeks ago
The government is considering a proposal to ensure that every pilot undergoes at least one random dope test every year, against the backdrop of the Air India controversy. Captain CS Randhawa of the Federation of Indian Pilots, retired Group Captain MJ Augustine and aviation expert Sanjay Lazar weigh in on the proposed move, its need and whether stricter testing can improve aviation safety.
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00:00Good evening, this is NewsTrack and I'm Maria Shakil.
00:03The government of India is considering testing every pilot once every year,
00:10which could be the biggest monitoring which we have seen across the globe.
00:17What began as a turbulence-related incident on August 4th on an Air India flight
00:23in which 24 passengers were injured,
00:25has now put pilot safety and drug testing in the cockpit under intense scrutiny.
00:31The controversy deepened after the pilot-in-command tested positive for marijuana
00:36in a confirmatory drug test twice.
00:39Now with the government considering testing every commercial pilot at least once a year,
00:44India could be heading towards one of its biggest changes yet
00:48in how it monitors pilots for substance use.
00:51But this raises some big questions.
00:55Should every pilot be tested every year?
00:57Is random testing enough or should the system go further?
01:00And how do you strengthen safety without causing major disruption to flight operations?
01:07Before I bring in the guests, here's a report.
01:14August 4th, Air India flight AI-2379 flying from Phuket to Delhi
01:21suddenly lost around 300 feet in altitude amid turbulence.
01:27The aircraft landed safely.
01:30But 24 passengers on board were injured, some seriously.
01:40What followed put this spotlight on pilot safety and drug testing in the cockpit.
01:48The pilot-in-command later tested positive for marijuana in a confirmatory drug test.
01:54Not once, but twice.
01:56The fallout was immediate.
01:59Air India and Air India Express launched mandatory psychoactive substance testing,
02:04screening around 5,000 pilots in a one-time exercise.
02:10Two Air India Group pilots also returned non-negative initial results.
02:16Their samples were sent for confirmatory testing.
02:19Now, the incident has triggered a much bigger question.
02:23How widely should pilots be tested?
02:28Under the current rules, airlines must randomly test at least 10% of their pilots every year.
02:34The government is weighing a 10% to 100% jump in pilot testing,
02:40with every commercial pilot potentially tested at least once a year at a random time.
02:46Civil Aviation Minister Ram Mohan Naidu says
02:49the DGCA is consulting stakeholders on tightening the rules
02:53and bringing in a stricter policy on substance use in aviation.
02:59DGCA is engaging and one of the opinions from our side is that
03:04everyone has to go through it in the year at a random time.
03:09So, we have to see how all the stakeholders are going to respond to this
03:13because one is the safety aspect of it,
03:16one is to maintain the safety intact
03:19and the second thing is the operational impact also.
03:22That also has to be taken into consideration.
03:24So, we are going to balance both of them.
03:26If this proposal goes through,
03:28testing coverage would jump from 10% to 100%.
03:32That means a tenfold increase in testing more samples,
03:37more lab work and potentially more pilots pulled from duty
03:40while they are tested.
03:42For airlines, that could mean tighter rosters,
03:45reserve crew requirements and the risk of operational disruption.
03:52Pilots' body, on the other hand, is seeking wider random testing.
03:56Federation of Indian Pilots wants the current testing coverage increased to 20% to 25%
04:01with random selection and repeat testing allowed.
04:05It is also pushing for oral fluid testing alongside urine tests
04:10arguing that faster screening could reduce pilot downtime
04:13and limit disruptions to flights.
04:19And while the drug testing debate gathers pace,
04:23the August 4 incident itself remains under investigation.
04:26The Aircraft Accident Investigation Bureau
04:29has the aircraft in its data recorder.
04:32A preliminary report is expected soon.
04:38For now, there is no final decision on the proposed 100% testing regime.
04:43But one thing is clear.
04:45India is moving towards tougher, wider and more unpredictable drug testing in the cockpit.
04:51Because when it comes to pilots,
04:54the question is not just who gets tested,
04:56but how quickly and effectively the system can test them
05:00without disrupting the skies.
05:10And we have a power-packed panel on the show tonight.
05:14We have Sanjay Lazar joining us.
05:16Sanjay, really welcome you on the show,
05:19Aviation Expert and Lawyer, CEO of Abiyala's Consultants.
05:24Captain C.S. Randhawa is joining us.
05:27He is the President of the Federation of Indian Pilots.
05:30We also have Group Captain M.J. Augustine Vinod joining us.
05:35He is an aviation expert.
05:36I really appreciate your time, gentlemen, on the show.
05:40Sanjay Lazar, the DGCA has engaged stakeholders in the past as well.
05:46What's different this time?
05:48And will 100% testing actually get notified?
05:53Or is it just optics after the incident of 4th of August?
05:59Good evening, Maria.
06:00And to your viewers and to the other panelists,
06:03thank you for having me on the show.
06:05You know, this incident has actually shocked the conscience of everybody more than just the turbulence.
06:12It was the fact that, you know, a pilot could have tested positive in such a case.
06:19Been unheard of in the country, you know, so far on a flight duty and actually across the world.
06:25But post this incident, I started digging around and I found that there have been cases, but U.S. law,
06:32for example, does not permit announcing the names.
06:36So it's been pretty discreet.
06:38They have not been actually on flight duty, but in pre-flight testing.
06:43That led me to do a lot of work in this.
06:45And, you know, Captain Randhava is there.
06:47The FIP has already made some very strong recommendations.
06:51I do believe Air India took the right step of announcing 100% testing of all its pilots in this
06:58year.
06:59And, you know, I think that's the way for the regulator to go.
07:03It should have done it some weeks ago when this broke.
07:06I do believe it will bring in confidence in the traveling public who are actually quite shaken by this incident.
07:12And I think it's, you know, an idea whose time has come.
07:15It will be the toughest of any other nation in the world.
07:18I've, you know, glanced through everybody else's testing norms.
07:22And of course, you know, the FIP has already recommended this swab testing.
07:26I think I've looked into that, the pros and the cons.
07:29And I think there are more pros than cons.
07:31So I don't know, you know, maybe we could find a way to test everybody 100% rapidly.
07:36And I think the DGCA's credibility is at its lowest today.
07:41So is the Aviation Ministry.
07:43And they will have to do something to pull themselves out of this hole.
07:47So I think it will happen.
07:48And so are the pilots.
07:50And so are the pilots under the radar.
07:52So let me bring in Captain Randhava.
07:53Captain Randhava, the Federation of Indian Pilots has urged the DGCA to consider faster oral fluid or saliva testing.
08:03I mean, that's what the recommendation has been, which is similar to perhaps those in Australia and in U.S.
08:12This proposal is there now, this announcement that has come in from the government.
08:18How should this be seen there?
08:20Good evening, Maria and my fellow panelists.
08:24First of all, I would like to just throw some light on the existing policy.
08:30The existing policy was only for 10% of the testing.
08:35And now they have wanted to move to 100% testing randomly.
08:39And that is on a yearly basis, which is a good step.
08:43However, it has got other ramifications.
08:47Firstly, the government has to ensure that all cities have sufficient labs who can test this.
08:54In some of the metros, hardly one or two labs are competent to do this test.
09:01That is first and foremost thing.
09:03I don't think so.
09:04DGC has even looked at that.
09:06The first and foremost thing which should be done by the DGCA is to start the swab testing so that
09:16the pilot does not operate the flight.
09:18And now that pilot should be subjected to the urine test rather than doing it randomly.
09:25Sometimes some of the drugs can, supposing I'm tested negative on 1st of January, right?
09:32My turn will come now on 1st of January next year or after that.
09:37Because random testing, by virtue of permutation, combination, it may come next year any time.
09:46Now the issue is that the person could have taken a drug and now he's tested after one year.
09:54So, the positive step should be first to do the swab testing.
10:00What is done in Australia is time testing.
10:01It should be random testing.
10:02I agree with you.
10:04It cannot be like if you have tested this year, then you have to wait for another 365 days.
10:11Yeah.
10:11So, I think this is quite absurd because nowhere in the world, you know, you're doing 100% of testing.
10:18Much rather, you know, what is the fear?
10:20The biggest fear is when you do surprise testing because a person does not know that when the test is
10:28going to be.
10:29But if you want to be more sure, then do the swab test every day, every flight, like you do
10:35for breath analyzer.
10:37After you do that, if the person is positive, now you take him off the flight, you have the standby
10:42crew operating,
10:43and this person should be now subjected to the urine test.
10:48The second point, which I said, which the government has to ensure that there are sufficient labs are available for
10:55this kind of testing.
10:57So, we have to be realistic.
10:59Now, let me tell you…
11:01I agree.
11:01I mean, sometimes it looks like only just some set of announcements.
11:06I'm going to come back to you because let me bring in Group Captain Vinod as well because he used
11:11to make his opening comments.
11:12Group Captain Vinod, is that process rigorous enough or would you say that it's just a paper formality?
11:23Maria, thank you for having me over after a long time with you and my pranam to all the other
11:29panelists.
11:29Quickly, I'll come straight to the point.
11:32Maria, you know, let me say it very, very clearly, unambiguously.
11:40Thousands of aircraft fly every single day and pilots are human beings.
11:44Yes, they can make mistakes, but you will agree with me, aviation is still the safest form of transportation.
11:52Why?
11:53Because we don't stop at blaming human beings who make a mistake.
11:57We try to make amends or we try to make aviation a safer place.
12:02And please quickly allow me two wonderful examples which amongst the pilot community, we all are well aware.
12:10One is called German Wings and second is called Teneriff Accident.
12:14Okay, ask any pilot or non-pilot, anybody will tell you.
12:17German Wings is an example where a pilot apparently committed suicide, can you believe it?
12:23But then, it didn't stop at that.
12:27IASA brought in a lot of other things.
12:28Today, a pilot alone, a single pilot alone cannot be in the cockpit.
12:32You know this?
12:32If a pilot has to take a leak, the cabin crew has to accompany or be in the cockpit.
12:40So, like this, when mistakes happen, Maria, people put their thinking cap on and they come up with many, many,
12:49you know, things to stop these loopholes which you may not have ab initio seen it.
12:56But Teneriff is an accident where a chief pilot, training pilots, a lot of people were sitting inside.
13:03It was foggy, 583 people lost their lives, Maria.
13:07But what happened after that made such an accident, I wouldn't say impossible, nearly impossible to happen because the word
13:16takeoff is today not used unless you are actually associated with takeoff.
13:21A lot of such many, many CRM things happened.
13:24Another, you know, beautiful example is this Air France 447.
13:29Air France 447, the Air France 447 plunged into the ground, wings level.
13:35What happened after that is tall recovery training was given to pilots.
13:39So, like Captain Randaba brought out, this swab test, taking him off the flight, doing urine tests, all this, you
13:51believe it or not, is on the cards and will happen quickly whether we are discussing here or not.
13:57Because that is the only way I see this menace will stop and aviation, remember, will plug all the loopholes
14:06to make every flight safer.
14:08And that is why, Maria, it is still the safest form of travel, safer than even train, safer than 100
14:16% of, you know, going on a car on Indian roads or on a motorcycle.
14:25That's spoken like Vinod, quite literally, yeah.
14:30So, let me bring in Captain Randaba again.
14:33Captain Randaba, will airlines and pilot unions resist this 100% testing on multiple grounds?
14:42You know, you have spoken about whether there are enough labs, you know, even rostering grounds can be brought up.
14:48And whatever one may say publicly, do you think a resistance will be coming up in some way?
14:56I don't think so.
14:58Any pilot body will object to encouraging the safety matters.
15:02You see, if you reduce the safety, then yes, the people would talk about.
15:09Otherwise, the pilot bodies will come under attack from the public because you're compromising safety.
15:16So, in my view, I think this is a step in positive direction.
15:21But this has got a lot of ramifications, as I told you.
15:25For the airlines, it's not so easy.
15:27You have to understand because 5,000 people have to be tested.
15:31So, every month, about 450 pilots have to be tested.
15:37450 pilots means almost 15 pilots every day.
15:41And this is over and above the people who are on leave, medically down, and who are doing ground training.
15:47So, it is going to be a challenge because of the airlines which have got some shortage of pilots.
15:55They will have a tough time because this testing will have to be done and not in time off.
16:02Pilots will object to that.
16:04That why are you making me do this test?
16:07And we will also object to that.
16:08So, Captain Randhava, who does the testing?
16:10Testing is done, Maria.
16:12Who does the testing usually?
16:14Is it done by the airline?
16:15Airline, airline organizes, airline organizes this test.
16:20And this is a specialized, you know, there's a bottle.
16:25Firstly, this toilet doesn't have any water source coming into it.
16:28And it is a sealed bottle.
16:31Like, you cannot put any more liquid in that.
16:34So, nothing is there in the toilet.
16:38And the urine sample is taken.
16:41Now, in India, they divide the sample into two.
16:43And it takes 24 to 48 hours to get the result.
16:49The second test which is done is by the hair follicle.
16:54Because in the hair follicle, that is, again, more expensive test.
16:59So, that takes approximately about 48 to 72 hours to get the report.
17:04Thirdly, the problem is that when you are doing only the urine testing, right, the cost factor.
17:14Now, the cost factor for 5,000 pilots, it's going to, the airlines will have to shell out about 1
17:21.75 to 2 crores.
17:23Every year, they have to set aside minimum.
17:27Apart from now, the bases on certain bases where especially Indigo is operating, supposing there is no lab.
17:35So, they will have to transport the pilot to another metro city to do the test.
17:40So, the cost will keep adding.
17:43So, you have to be practical, you know.
17:45I don't think so.
17:47It is very, very practical from the standpoint.
17:50A lot of practical challenges.
17:52So, perhaps it has not been thought through is what you are indicating here.
17:58Let me bring in Sanjay Lazar again.
18:00And, legally, can DGCA even mandate 100% testing without amending CAR norms?
18:07Or, is this a month of rulemaking before a single extra test happens?
18:14Well, legally, you are right, Maria.
18:17They have to amend the car.
18:18But, there is also emergency provisions that they have where they could issue this directive
18:24and then put the process of the car amendment.
18:27And, I do not believe that anyone is going to challenge this.
18:30This brings about another problem because you are going to then see airlines opposing it very discreetly, not directly.
18:39I mean, here I am talking about the biggest airline because it is going to increase, like Captain Randhawa said,
18:44it is going to increase the pilot requirement by at least 10 to 20%.
18:49Because pilots cannot do this test in their rest periods or their time off.
18:54They have to do it before or after a flight.
18:57You would have to do screening of, like he said, you know, 100% of pilots.
19:01You are talking about 500 odd pilots a month in each airline being tested in the larger two.
19:07So, that is going to be additional cost, additional manpower.
19:10I do not know if the swab test will work.
19:12If they do that, there is going to be quite a few hoops.
19:15I do think this has to be thought through.
19:18But, you know, hopefully they will, you know, get around this and be the one.
19:23You know, we look at the other countries.
19:25For example, the U.S. tests 25%.
19:28Britain tests randomly like the EU.
19:30Okay.
19:31But they also do between 10 and 25%.
19:33And, you know, the U.S. has a HIMSS program, which is, you know, where they bring in human intervention,
19:40motivation studies.
19:41They start, you know, counseling the pilot and then put them back on very, very different methods of handling it.
19:48Even Australia, for that matter, has a completely different method.
19:52They just, you know, they have standby pilots.
19:54So, they do the swab test.
19:55If you're tested positive in the rapid test, you're moved out.
19:59So, that will be another additional cost.
20:01You would have to have pilots standby at all times if you're doing a pre-departure swab test randomly.
20:07So, these are things that need to be thought through.
20:10Captain, you know, Randhava is right about the facilities.
20:13And, of course, Captain Augustine, we know this, right?
20:17Aviation is still, by far and large, the safest method of travel.
20:21You know, it's safer to travel in an aircraft than in an auto-rickshah in Mumbai.
20:25So, that's what it is, yeah.
20:28Maria.
20:28Okay, okay, okay.
20:30Let me bring in Captain Augustine, we know.
20:34You know, because we are looking at what is practiced in other countries here.
20:39Should India move to pre-flight breathalyzer test, which is something which Western carriers actually do instead of random manual
20:49sampling here?
20:51No, we do 100%.
20:53In fact, probably India is one of the few countries which does, Maria.
20:57100% pre-flight breath analyzer test for every flight.
21:03And flights coming from abroad.
21:05We do 100% breath analyzer test post-flight.
21:09Why?
21:09Because most countries don't do 100% pre-flight breathalyzer test, which is why when I board a flight to
21:17operate a flight into India, I don't have the provision in the airport.
21:21But in India, it is mandatory.
21:24All flights BA test is done.
21:26Now, there are two aspects quickly I'll bring to attention.
21:32Like Captain Dandava said, it is going to be a logistical nightmare which you will have to overcome.
21:37For example, the swab test and the urine test for a psychoactive substance is done during your simulator time.
21:49And the simulator time is every six months.
21:53And every one year you have to do something called a proficiency check.
21:56So, when you come to the simulator, the doctor is there, the lab person is there, and you take the
22:04sample and do the test.
22:05So, people flying here and there, that is being avoided and it can be avoided.
22:11It is just a way of finding how to do the test, firstly.
22:15Secondly, the Maria's biggest, bigger elephant in the room needs to be addressed.
22:21That is, access to these drugs and marijuana that needs to be curbed in this country looks like, Maria, that
22:30is on the rise.
22:31That needs to be completely curbed to all and sundry.
22:35How are people able to buy this?
22:37I can't even understand and fathom this.
22:40Maybe 10 years earlier, people could not find it so easily as they are able to right now.
22:47That also needs to be curbed.
22:49So, it has to be a multi-pronged approach.
22:51But wishing away that it cannot be, you know, it won't be done is not correct.
22:59Because we found a loophole, that loophole needs to be fixed.
23:02I totally am with Captain Randhava on this.
23:06Airlines will find a way.
23:07The GCA will find a way.
23:10Believe you me, we are more strict than any other country in the world.
23:14No, Maria.
23:17Okay, I have just enough time for Captain Randhava for the last and final comment.
23:23Please go ahead, sir.
23:25Maria, the first and foremost thing I would like to say that the airlines presently,
23:32they are unable to man the standby duties.
23:36I repeat, they cannot man all the flights on standby duties, which is mandatory as per the FDTLCR.
23:46So, if they, again, they lose out on the pilots' everyday testing, it is going to be detrimental.
23:53I don't think so.
23:54The stakeholders, the airlines are going to agree to this.
23:58Because they will have a problem.
24:00And to produce captains, they are already having a problem because the number of aircraft which are coming,
24:06they are not able to get the captains.
24:09So, that will involve at least getting another about 1,000, 2,000 captains who are expats.
24:16So, I really don't know.
24:18This is a cat and mouse situation that it is not so easy.
24:23It is easily said that, okay, do 100%.
24:27Yes, we are also in agreement.
24:30Okay, you do 100%.
24:31But you have to work out the logistics.
24:33You have to work out everything before you implement it.
24:36So, all these processes have to be thought before making a pressing impact.
24:43Absolutely.
24:44Captain Rondava, thank you for your time and thank you for raising all those questions.
24:49Group Captain Augustine Vinod, I appreciate your time here on the show.
24:53Sanjay Lazar, pleasure having you on the show.
24:55That's all from me on this edition of NewsTrack.
24:59I'll be seeing you tomorrow.
25:00Thanks so much for watching.
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