- 1 week ago
John and Pia discuss how high-control church systems can affect men, families, conscience, parenting, and personal identity. They explore the pressure to submit to spiritual authority, the fear of questioning leaders, the loss of confidence, and the struggle many men face when trying to process what happened after leaving.
The conversation also examines how loyalty, silence, humiliation, isolation, and institutional protection can shape church culture. John shares personal reflections on leaving, therapy, and learning to speak honestly, while Pia closes with a practical reflection on patience, listening, and giving men room to open up.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
04:04 How Abusive Church Systems Affect Men
08:02 Bruce and Sheila: Authority, Control, and Spiritual Abuse
16:09 What Happens When You Leave an Abusive Church
20:54 The Broken Horse: How Men Are Trained to Submit
24:11 Five Ways Abusive NAR Pastors Control Men
29:25 Parenting, Discipline, and the Loss of a Father’s Judgment
38:03 When Churches Reward Compliance Instead of Courage
47:46 Protecting the Institution Instead of the Family
53:52 Why Men Struggle to Talk About Spiritual Abuse
57:14 The Sea Turtle Lesson: Giving Men Space to Open Up
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
The conversation also examines how loyalty, silence, humiliation, isolation, and institutional protection can shape church culture. John shares personal reflections on leaving, therapy, and learning to speak honestly, while Pia closes with a practical reflection on patience, listening, and giving men room to open up.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
04:04 How Abusive Church Systems Affect Men
08:02 Bruce and Sheila: Authority, Control, and Spiritual Abuse
16:09 What Happens When You Leave an Abusive Church
20:54 The Broken Horse: How Men Are Trained to Submit
24:11 Five Ways Abusive NAR Pastors Control Men
29:25 Parenting, Discipline, and the Loss of a Father’s Judgment
38:03 When Churches Reward Compliance Instead of Courage
47:46 Protecting the Institution Instead of the Family
53:52 Why Men Struggle to Talk About Spiritual Abuse
57:14 The Sea Turtle Lesson: Giving Men Space to Open Up
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Pia Hugo, former member
00:00:46of the New Apostolic Reformation.
00:00:49Pia, it's good to have you back and to talk about one of the delicate subjects that I dance
00:00:54around, and that is the discussion of men.
00:00:58I actually don't talk about it much, because men seem to be in turtle shells that are very
00:01:05hard to penetrate when you talk to them in one of these interviews, whereas when you
00:01:09talk to the women, they open up and they tell you pretty much everything that you want to
00:01:13know.
00:01:13And so I have to delicately ask the questions, and we don't have an example of somebody, so
00:01:18I guess I get to play guinea pig in this episode.
00:01:22But I'll start by saying this, I'm not your usual male who was trapped in this thing and
00:01:29came out.
00:01:30I actually grew up, you don't know this about me, but I actually grew up reading the Bible
00:01:34and reading Louis L'Amour books.
00:01:37And so from reading these books, these Westerns, although it's all fiction and I question whether
00:01:44there's a whole lot of morals in it, they did have a moral code for the males in the
00:01:49stories.
00:01:50And so I grew up with this weird moral code mixture of Louis L'Amour and Bible verses,
00:01:56and I feasted on things that were moral and wholesome, like the Andy Griffith show.
00:02:02Once I started watching it, I would watch how Andy would behave, and he always had the right
00:02:07answer.
00:02:09And yet, I watched some of my peers grow up, and they became very different from me.
00:02:14I'm just going to say it like that.
00:02:16Not to say that I'm perfect, by no means, but I am an abnormality.
00:02:21However, because I was in it, I can pretty well describe all of the issues that men have
00:02:28in being in something like this.
00:02:29And there are many.
00:02:30So today is your day to play guinea pig with John.
00:02:35Yes, we get to do a deep dive on men and you, John.
00:02:42So hello to everyone.
00:02:44I am coming live for John, but this is pre-recorded for your audience, but I am coming live from
00:02:54the Philippines.
00:02:55So behind me is the beautiful scenery from the backyard of our school.
00:03:02So I mentioned a few times that my husband and I are missionaries here in the Philippines,
00:03:08and we've built a school for the poor kids in this area, the island of Mindanao, Philippines.
00:03:16So I know you've got some Filipino people watching you because one of your commenters said, whenever
00:03:24I watch your podcast, Pia, I think of Lechon and Pansit.
00:03:28He's mentioning Filipino food.
00:03:31Like, okay, you're either a Filipino or you just like Filipino food.
00:03:36But that's nice that I remind you of Filipino food.
00:03:41So I am very honored that I am probably your only Filipino guest, I'm assuming.
00:03:49And so pretty sure you've never had anyone broadcast live from the island of Mindanao.
00:03:56So here we are.
00:03:57And this is where I'm going to be for the next couple of weeks, months, actually.
00:04:02So anyway, let's do a deep dive on the effects of the negative effects, I should say.
00:04:12There are some positive, but a lot of them are negative.
00:04:16Negative effects of the NAR system on men in general, not just you, John.
00:04:25So I really wanted to delve in this topic because I do feel that many of the guests that appear
00:04:40on your show and also other like exposure podcast shows feature women.
00:04:48And like you said, you know, women have no problems sharing, you know, their deep, dark secrets,
00:05:00I should say, you know, because I think women just more naturally feel like it's very therapeutic
00:05:10for us to just speak from our hearts.
00:05:14You know, it's not like pulling teeth.
00:05:17I've got three sons and one daughter.
00:05:21And let me tell you, when I talk to my sons, it is like pulling teeth.
00:05:30Like how's school?
00:05:32Fine.
00:05:32Anything happen?
00:05:33No.
00:05:34Like, okay, come on.
00:05:36Like spill the beans.
00:05:37What happened?
00:05:38I can see it in your face.
00:05:39So, you know, I think we have heard a lot about how women have been spiritually abused, how they
00:05:51have been sexually abused, how they have been domestically, you know, assaulted.
00:06:00And these are, of course, topics that are near and dear to my heart.
00:06:05But I do not want your audience to think for one moment that, you know, we should not care
00:06:12for the male population.
00:06:15So I'm going to start with this.
00:06:18I think one of the greatest ironies of spiritually abusive leadership is that they tend to focus
00:06:27focus on strong biblical masculinity.
00:06:31You know, you mentioned that, you know, you read.
00:06:38I am not familiar with those literary works, but I'm assuming.
00:06:43Picture John Wayne.
00:06:45Cowboy, I was going to say.
00:06:46The face of the cowboy.
00:06:47I was, I was picturing like cowboys and John Wayne and, you know, nothing phases me, you
00:06:54know, kind of thing.
00:06:56And I think that's very typical.
00:06:58That's not just American cowboy culture.
00:07:02I think, I mean, again, I'm Filipino.
00:07:07Filipino men are very stoic, I think.
00:07:11And I'm married to a Mexican.
00:07:14So, you know, Latino men, you know, the whole machismo thing, you know, he's a firefighter.
00:07:21So, again, the whole, you know, the facade, I'm going to call it, that nothing can hurt
00:07:32me, you know, I'm a big boy, I'm a tough man.
00:07:35But I call it a facade because deep down inside, you know, we're all tender hearts.
00:07:45You know, we're, we're all needing love and nurturing and caring.
00:07:51And unfortunately, these are things that are not provided to women and men in some of these
00:07:59abusive cultures.
00:08:02So, I want to bring up an author, you might have heard of her.
00:08:07Her name is Holly Pivick.
00:08:09Are you familiar with her?
00:08:11I am.
00:08:11So, she has co-written a few books with, with her colleague, Douglas Gibbett.
00:08:18I don't, I don't know if I'm pronouncing it right.
00:08:20But Holly and Douglas, they kind of like specialize on writing about Gnar and all the bad things
00:08:32about Gnar.
00:08:34And one of her most popular books is a book called Counterfeit Kingdom.
00:08:40Have you read it, John?
00:08:41I've read parts of it.
00:08:42I've not read the entire book, but I am familiar with it.
00:08:44So, if I may, I'm going to read a story about a couple whose names are Bruce and Sheila.
00:08:53I don't know if they're the real names, but it's what Holly uses in her book.
00:08:59So, these are direct quotes.
00:09:00She says, Gnar apostles and prophets claim great authority in the church and beyond the church.
00:09:10And because of the powerful position they supposedly occupy between heaven and earth,
00:09:18their authority can wreak havoc in the lives of those who submit to them.
00:09:24So, Bruce and Sheila are one such couple.
00:09:28They were fooled for 15 years by their church leader, a man who claimed to be an apostle.
00:09:39And at that time, they had no idea they were actually attending a Gnar church.
00:09:44That is typical.
00:09:46You, the audience, you might be in a Gnar church and you don't even know it.
00:09:52Because they don't, you know, the new apostolic reformation is not really a denomination.
00:10:02And, of course, John, you know this.
00:10:04You know, it's not like they're Baptists.
00:10:07It's not like they're, you know, strictly charismatic.
00:10:10It's really a movement.
00:10:12It's just a wave of churches and ministries that have really embraced the principles and the doctrinal practices of William
00:10:26Branham.
00:10:28Whether or not they realized it.
00:10:30You know, now I know.
00:10:31Now we all know.
00:10:32Now your audience knows that, oh, okay, none of these are original.
00:10:36It didn't come from Che, it didn't come from C. Peter Wagner, you know, things that I was told, you
00:10:43know, or John Wimber or what's Derek Prince, right?
00:10:49Gnar has become like this, this bucket that all these different concepts and principles over the decades have just kind
00:10:59of fallen into.
00:11:00And so now we have a gnar bucket of false teachings and very harmful doctrinal practices.
00:11:10I'm going to put it that way.
00:11:11Stephen Montgomery refers to it as the converging apostasy.
00:11:15And I just say it was a buffet of bad ideas.
00:11:18They went through the buffet taking this theology and this other theology.
00:11:23None of it was really biblical.
00:11:25And it really all started with this.
00:11:27They had an idea that sounded good.
00:11:29It sounded somewhat biblical, but it was slightly extra biblical.
00:11:33And people tried to figure out, okay, well, if that's the case, how does it work?
00:11:37So they add their own idea and their own theology, and it would morph into a new theology.
00:11:41And then somebody would pick that up and say, that guy went into error, but what he had was true.
00:11:46Let's take that and let's add my own theology.
00:11:49And so that happened.
00:11:50And it just continued to spread like this cancer across the globe until you had this hodgepodge of ideas that
00:11:57really none of it makes any sense.
00:11:59But people try to say that it does make sense.
00:12:02And so people go through the buffet line taking bits and pieces of what they like.
00:12:06And in the end, all they have is something that's not really that good to eat.
00:12:10So according to Holly, the couple did not feel free to make decisions for themselves, where to move, changing jobs,
00:12:20having children, disciplining children without consulting the prophet or the apostle and the senior pastor.
00:12:31And usually the senior pastor is either an apostle or a prophet.
00:12:36So they started out like all couples who first joined an art church.
00:12:44They were love-bombed.
00:12:46They were welcomed.
00:12:48They were honored.
00:12:49And so Bruce quickly became very loyal to the pastor.
00:12:58And he would volunteer to do all kinds of things without pay, mind you.
00:13:03And we've talked about that in previous podcasts, how, you know, they're just very good at recruiting people to give
00:13:14of their time and their money and their effort.
00:13:17And somehow people just say yes.
00:13:22So the problem started when Bruce began to question some of the apostles' interpretation of scripture.
00:13:33He was told that he was just misunderstanding the apostle.
00:13:40So it was gaslighting, basically, right?
00:13:44So he was gaslighted so many times, he just stopped questioning.
00:13:49He just kind of slowly started shutting off his critical thinking skills.
00:13:55And the apostle would also correct, humiliate, and call out Bruce in front of the whole church.
00:14:03He used guilt and fear to control both Bruce and Sheila.
00:14:10But they remained at the church because they believed that this guy was a true apostle, that all the wisdom
00:14:17he was getting came from God himself.
00:14:20Church services lasted between four to six hours on a Sunday.
00:14:27And after years of steadfast loyalty to the apostle and serving the church, of course, the couple began to burn
00:14:38out.
00:14:38Surprise, surprise.
00:14:40So Bruce said, please, can I take a break from my responsibilities?
00:14:46Please, please, please.
00:14:47He started becoming more anxious.
00:14:51He started becoming more depressed.
00:14:54We did a previous podcast, John, about my co-worker at PDI, whom I named Sally.
00:15:03And same with Sally, right?
00:15:06His work, his performance was deteriorating.
00:15:12mentally he realized he couldn't cope anymore so he begged for a break and the apostle said no
00:15:19we can't function without you you know because again a very valuable volunteer is someone who
00:15:28wears many hats maybe you're doing the soundboard maybe you're heading the children's church maybe
00:15:35you're a worship leader you're doing all of that without pay so of course the apostle told bruce
00:15:45well we can't function without you and again feeding into the man's ego um however uh the couple
00:15:55just grew very disenchanted and they decided to eventually leave the church now here's
00:16:05what i want you to listen to carefully there was an exit meeting not everybody has exit meetings
00:16:13but apparently this apostle wanted an exit meeting he said if you're gonna leave our church
00:16:19we need to have at least one last meeting the apostle told him that because he was being disobedient
00:16:30and rebellious that god would never use him in ministry ever again now mind you that is almost
00:16:39pervadum what i was told when i was asked i i mean i i wish i had the the luxury
00:16:49of being able to leave
00:16:51when i wanted i wanted i was kicked out so because um i was kicked out and they called me
00:17:01rebellious
00:17:01because i um you know divorced my my ex-husband they said that you're gonna be out of god's will
00:17:09forever
00:17:10and forget about ever serving in ministry because the favor of the lord would somehow leave me
00:17:17so um the sad thing is that when they left none of their church friends reached out to them
00:17:27they were shunned they were explicitly told from the pulpit do not reach out to bruce and sheila
00:17:37because they they are no longer part of our family so they went through this very painful lonely process
00:17:48and you know and unfortunately that is so typical you know that that is almost like um classic uh cultic
00:17:59behavior on the part of um their church so when they were interviewed by holly pivick um pivick sorry um
00:18:10they were still reeling from the severe spiritual abuse that they um experienced at this church
00:18:18but at the same time sheila was um the wife was um also starting to feel very positive like you
00:18:29know what
00:18:29this is the best thing i have my husband back you know the the uh our our uh kid's father
00:18:37is back
00:18:38um she i think um healed faster than bruce did and that's why i want to focus on the bruises
00:18:50of your
00:18:51audience um because i think the men really have a harder time sometimes when they're within the system
00:19:02and when they leave i think women you know i i'm actually a part of i'm gonna say two support
00:19:11groups
00:19:12of women um who have left in our churches one is based on a facebook page that my friend shannon
00:19:23shout out to shannon um she started and another is um in person you know
00:19:32and and one of my dear friends darla who you know also came out of um chayon's church harvest rock
00:19:39church she and i knew each other from before and i believe um she is or is going to be
00:19:45one of your
00:19:46guests in one of your podcasts so i have women friends that i can commiserate with and like you said
00:19:53it's a lot easier for us to just open up our hearts and vent and um just be there for
00:20:01for one
00:20:02another but my experience with men is they leave church and they're just
00:20:10hey i'm a cowboy right i'm just gonna ride my horse and i'm just gonna ride off into the sunset
00:20:16and whatever i'm gonna just go to the next town
00:20:19and somehow they manage to go through the rest of their lives but i believe that they all have
00:20:33gaping wounds still deep down inside so i'm gonna let you share a little bit about your gaping wound
00:20:44john is it true that men really do tend to go go at it alone in their um journey of
00:20:53healing
00:20:53there's so much that i could say but i think i'll start with this don't think cowboy instead think
00:21:00horse because that's really what it's like for the man it's more like the horse whenever men are
00:21:06growing up they're growing up with this natural inclination to start a family to protect to serve the
00:21:13family to help help raise young kids etc that's part of your internal makeup and you have great
00:21:21ambitions as a man i grew up with great ambitions but like the wild horses that had great ambitions we
00:21:29were broken and whenever you think about what the cowboys did to the horse to break them enough to ride
00:21:36them so that the horses could serve them that's what was happening to the men the irony in all of
00:21:43that and actually the reason why i mentioned the louis lemur books which you you got to read these if
00:21:49you're if you're interested in cowboys i'll say it like that they're actually really good wholesome
00:21:54books and yes they talk about outlaws etc but it does capture something that you don't find much in
00:22:01america and sadly in my opinion religion has destroyed that aspect of men it really has so
00:22:11back to the horses we were broken horses because we were taught to believe that the these abusive
00:22:21leaders were teaching us something that was defending manhood but instead what it was really doing
00:22:27was it was promoting control so if you were to be a real man in fact i've heard this exact
00:22:34sentence
00:22:34if you're to be a real man you must control your woman so they were teaching a hierarchy of control
00:22:41but at the same time strength wasn't an internal strength strength was listening to what the leader
00:22:48told you to be strength so you were being you were being trained to be broken just like a horse
00:22:56and so
00:22:57what was happening is while they're preaching strength they're actually giving you weakness
00:23:01but they're calling it strength and so when men leave this they leave much like a horse would be if
00:23:08if an owner said i don't want you anymore horse go away from here what does the horse do all
00:23:13the
00:23:13horse really knows is how to serve the master that's what's happening whenever people leave these churches
00:23:19and sadly in fact i i have witnessed this firsthand i've witnessed a person who left one of these abusive
00:23:26churches
00:23:26tried to adapt in a new church but they weren't the people in the new church weren't broken like
00:23:34this and the ministers did not expect to ride them like this so it's like a horse who comes to
00:23:40a new
00:23:40rider and the rider says i don't want to ride you you're free do what whatever you want the horse
00:23:46knows nothing except to be broken and that's sadly what is happening to the men
00:23:50yeah very very tragic um and i'm glad you you mentioned that part about how they you know they
00:24:01pretend to care about your masculinity while simultaneously stripping you of your true
00:24:09masculinity so uh i've come up with five things okay i'm gonna call it five things that abusive
00:24:18nar pastors do to the men in their churches the first um thing i i'm gonna say it this way
00:24:29they
00:24:30replace personal conviction with submission to authority so healthy pastors like you said they teach men to
00:24:39hear god for themselves to make decisions that are wise and to go to god to read the bible
00:24:47to gain wisdom um unfortunately abusive nor pastors do the exact opposite um they
00:24:55very subtly communicate one you need to trust my discernment discernment only i can really discern
00:25:05what god wants for your life two questioning me is like questioning god and three your role
00:25:14is obedience and not discernment so it's exactly what you were saying john um the second one
00:25:23the second thing that they do is they undermine the father's role in the home so in abusive church cultures
00:25:33uh the pastor kind of becomes like the functional head of multiple families you know what i mean like he
00:25:43you you you've often described the hierarchical uh structure of these nar churches like a pyramid
00:25:51so at the very top is like the mini pope we call them many things demigods you know narcissistic uh
00:26:03leaders but
00:26:03you know right now right now i'm thinking of the word pope the pope the head of the church the
00:26:10mini church
00:26:11and then you've got all these families that cannot function without first listening to the pope
00:26:23so men uh as they're leading their families begin to ask huh what would the what would the pope say
00:26:33about
00:26:33this like am i allowed to do this can we move here can i get that job can i ask
00:26:39for the raise like well
00:26:40what would pope say let me let me make an appointment to see the pope you know um would would
00:26:46the pope
00:26:46approve of this now here are the two big ones would the pope want me to discipline my children and
00:26:54how
00:26:56and two would how would my how would the pope how would my pastor want me to educate my kids
00:27:06and i'll tell you the typical answer how do i discipline my kids well we've got a book for you
00:27:16it's you know for on sale at the church table for you know 9.99 it's called god the rod
00:27:23and your
00:27:24child's bod which we've already talked about in a previous podcast by the child expert larry tomzak
00:27:34so of course you're going to use the rod right um so even if you yourself um
00:27:42um you have a an anger issue it seems like there are quite a few men with anger issues i'm
00:27:50not gonna
00:27:50i'm not gonna venture too far into that but you know there are quite a few men i think who
00:27:57are raised
00:27:58by angry fathers and so it gets passed on so you know and i'm not saying women don't have anger
00:28:04issues
00:28:05you know we just tend to um we just tend to express our anger a little differently but when you
00:28:14put a
00:28:15rod in the hands of an abusive man who can't control his anger like my ex-husband did then you're
00:28:23putting
00:28:23a weapon in his hands have you ever wondered how the pentecostal movement started or how the progression
00:28:30of modern pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign charismatic and other fringe
00:28:35movements into the new apostolic reformation you can learn this and more on william branham
00:28:41historical research's website william-branham.org on the books page of the website you can find the
00:28:49compiled research of john collins charles paisley stephen montgomery john mckinnon and others with links
00:28:56to the paper audio and digital versions of each book you can also find resources and documentation
00:29:02on various people and topics related to those movements if you want to contribute to the cause
00:29:09you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top and as always be sure to like
00:29:15and
00:29:15subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching on behalf of william
00:29:21branham historical research we want to thank you for your support the second question how do i educate
00:29:27my children so i'm going to throw that at you john what would a typical nar pastor tell the father
00:29:38what's the best way to get your kids educated so now interestingly i'm going to instead of the horse go
00:29:45to
00:29:46the dog okay i have seen people's dogs that are like this they just cower in fear whenever a command
00:29:53is given their tail goes between their legs they cower down and you can tell that that's that's the
00:29:58sign of a well-beaten dog and we we actually we have gotten a few dogs from the shelter and
00:30:05some of them
00:30:06that we have taken on have had this and it's really hard to correct once this has happened because you've
00:30:11broken
00:30:12their will and the the dog that we have now fortunately we rescued her at a time when she
00:30:19wasn't yet that broken she still has some issues but i encourage the dog so that the dog can learn
00:30:25i
00:30:25don't want to beat the dog because the dog will be scared of me i want to show a relationship
00:30:30and
00:30:30connect with them in a way that a father should connect to his children i'm connecting in the same
00:30:36way i would with my children to the dog the same thing with my children when i'm teaching my
00:30:41children something i'm one of these unusual dads because i will let them make the biggest mistakes
00:30:48even if it's costly sometimes because i want them to learn from that experience i don't want to stand
00:30:55there with a whip and say no you can't do that because x y and z i usually let them
00:31:00fall and then
00:31:01pick them back up but i want them to see that they too can pick themselves back up is really
00:31:07the lesson
00:31:07here that's how a father should train when i when i was in the movement sadly our oldest child was
00:31:15there
00:31:15for the other version of me and the other version of me was not like this we were told exactly
00:31:21what
00:31:21you said spare the rod spoil the child all of these things that we were taught and we even had
00:31:28it quite
00:31:29a bit worse than what you're describing in that book because you can go to my website you can type
00:31:35in
00:31:35physical abuse i won't talk about it on youtube because youtube will block it it was that bad
00:31:40but we were raised with that mentality you must beat everyone everything especially the females into
00:31:46submission or you're not a man and so i was trained with that mentality if i want to be a
00:31:52real man i must
00:31:53beat something and the the irony for me is my personality is not like this i don't i don't want
00:32:00to be that
00:32:01person so i was i had this internal conflict what this does in the end you talked about the spiritual
00:32:08abuse of the women and how they behave and react men had spiritual abuse too but we had it in
00:32:15a
00:32:15different form we were trained to distrust ourselves we can't trust the things that we do we can't trust
00:32:21the way that we parent we cannot trust anything except for what this leader says that we must do and
00:32:28how
00:32:28we must behave and if we disagreed with them we had to even submit to that we could not even
00:32:34have to
00:32:34have a disagreement so one of the problems that develops after this a you become horrible parents
00:32:41obviously but b when you leave the movement even after deprogramming you really struggle to trust
00:32:47yourself and you can't really react whenever there's something that happens you disagree with or even a
00:32:55conversation you disagree with the sad part for me because the movement merged with politics it became
00:33:02a strong political force well think about what has happened as the fruits of this get on facebook
00:33:08anytime there's an election and watch how people treat each other in the comments they don't know how
00:33:14to react with somebody who has a different opinion because they've been manipulated like this
00:33:18and it is widespread it's not just in like you said it's not just a specific group or denomination it
00:33:25is
00:33:25spread throughout the church systems well there's a word for that john it's intolerance and as a former
00:33:35social science teacher that is the number one thing we teach in our classrooms is tolerance acceptance
00:33:44and tolerance for people who are different from you that's an excellent uh answer john to how how do you
00:33:53educate your children you know good for you i i think um i'm not surprised that you know you're you're
00:34:00you're a good person john so that's why you're a good dad and i'm sure you're a good husband
00:34:05um but unfortunately like you said um there is just extreme control from the top right down and that
00:34:16includes how you educate your kids um the answer i was actually looking for was homeschooling
00:34:25which goes with what you're saying right because how can you even control your kids
00:34:33uh to the max uh to the max you know you don't even bring them to school you don't even
00:34:40bring them
00:34:41to public school you know it's one thing to bring them to christian school at least they're socializing
00:34:46there but oh my gosh you know public school is the devil's playground i have heard that so many times
00:34:55which is why i laugh because i mean my kids went to public school
00:35:00and i taught at a public school for 23 years you know i'm not saying we don't have our demonic
00:35:07influences but you know there's a saying better the devil you know better the devil you know than the
00:35:16devil you do not know it was very clear to me the demonic influences i had to battle with when
00:35:23i was a
00:35:24public high school teacher but man the devil that's in the church oh man they're very subtle those those
00:35:33demonic influences and that's why we're doing this podcast because we got to wake people up that the
00:35:39evils are not just out there right they're within they're in us and they're around us in our church circles
00:35:48but and again i i this is the second time i've mentioned homeschooling and i will say it again i
00:35:56am
00:35:56not against homeschooling i think there are um i know personally of many parents who are excellent or
00:36:06are excellent homeschool homeschooling parents and i've also seen um wonderful results uh from kids
00:36:16who are homeschooled uh but when when the motive for putting your kids in in a homeschooling situation
00:36:28is to just keep them locked into the system and and you're taught by the church which homeschooling
00:36:39curriculum to buy you know what what teachings to highlight and you know it's still basically that
00:36:47that that pope i'm calling him a pope well now he's also the superintendent okay he gets to decide
00:36:56what gets taught to all the kids and that is how you keep the system just going from generation to
00:37:04generation to generation to generation and the father like you said even though you had a problem
00:37:14with that style of parenting in the beginning because you were part of the system you felt you had no
00:37:21choice and the same with me i used the rod i'm i'm i'm you know it's hard for me to
00:37:28admit i stopped quite
00:37:30soon okay because i couldn't do it i did it a few times i i couldn't do it i couldn't
00:37:36use that stupid
00:37:37wooden spoon anymore but um you know it's again one of the i think most tragic results
00:37:48results of um what happens to men when they just follow these guys blindly um so that that leads to
00:37:57the
00:37:57third third thing that churches tend to do to men nor pastors reward compliance rather than courage
00:38:06so i like let's go back to the horse you know i like what you said that a horse that
00:38:16is free
00:38:18that is majestic that is full of courage i've seen wild horses run you know and they are beautiful to
00:38:27watch
00:38:28and you can they're like fearless right they they they know you know no no bounds and and they'll
00:38:37jump over you know bushes and whatever rocks and and i i just think that that is a beautiful illustration
00:38:47of a healthy man full of courage i mean jesus was the bravest man
00:38:54god that ever was and it's so sad like you said that the end result um once a man submits
00:39:07to the
00:39:08authority of a narcissist is a broken horse so um this is what i wrote spiritually abusive systems will will
00:39:21punish real courage men who want to speak truth right men who want to just confront wrongdoing
00:39:32men who just want to protect the innocence they punish men with those traits and instead
00:39:40this is what they're taught courage can only be celebrated so long as you're um benefiting the leadership
00:39:50so so long as you're going with the program sure we'll applaud your courage you know because what you did
00:39:57actually helped the leaders silence is rewarded so i i mentioned this in a previous podcast
00:40:08um i've been in board meetings i've been in past pastoral meetings leadership meetings
00:40:17where the head pastor apostle the pope speaks and in my mind i mean i'm just like the secretary i'm
00:40:27just a
00:40:28glorified secretary taking notes he says something and in my mind i'm thinking that's ridiculous like
00:40:36we're doing what you know i mean i'm not gonna i can't even think of an example right now but
00:40:44just
00:40:44just just just think of the most ridiculous thing you've ever heard from the mouth of a
00:40:49you know of a pastor and no one says anything i'm looking at all the men in the room and
00:40:57they're all
00:40:58like yes amen you know like really and it just it was dumbfounding first time it happened to me and
00:41:08then
00:41:08i got used to it and then and then now you know after a while i i realized that when
00:41:13when you know
00:41:14the leader that the top leader would say okay you guys have any questions that's code for i don't
00:41:22really want you to say anything okay so you're all good mm-hmm yeah okay that's code for i'm just
00:41:29gonna
00:41:30keep my mouth shut if i want my job or if i want to keep my position right so silence
00:41:36is always rewarded
00:41:37and loyalty is valued above personal integrity loyalty is the number one thing that these leaders
00:41:47are always looking for all right let's go to number four the fourth thing that i think nar pastors tend
00:41:55to
00:41:55do is they humiliate the men who challenge them we already saw that in the example of bruce
00:42:02um any way and anyhow um if there is a man who's strong enough and firm enough to say pastor
00:42:13that
00:42:13goes against my personal convictions i don't think that's right what do they do they will mock you
00:42:20they will question your motives they will portray you as being prideful and rebellious they will strip
00:42:30you if you keep pressing they will strip you of all your ministry positions and they this is the
00:42:36most painful of all and i i want to ask you john if you've experienced this they will isolate you
00:42:43socially
00:42:45you're not gonna be invited to their games their basketball games or whatever men tend to do to relax you
00:42:54know i i i was gonna say you're not invited to their poker games but maybe christian men don't don't
00:43:00play
00:43:00poker at least they didn't in the large churches i went to but let's just say you know those those
00:43:06saturday basketball games you know you're not invited to those functions anymore so have you ever
00:43:13experienced that john that was actually a huge part of our leaving there was a point in time in which
00:43:19my
00:43:19grandfather did not i don't think he fully believed that we were going to leave for good the movement
00:43:27and he came out i'm told i wasn't there but he came out from the behind the pulpit and said
00:43:34that
00:43:34everybody needs to stay away from john and jennifer at this point the only thing that really i had done
00:43:40was asked a couple of questions jennifer being my wife only had asked a couple questions jennifer
00:43:46had not even mentioned a question like like she was just caught up in this because of that
00:43:52subordinate thing that i was talking to about you before you're in this hierarchy and because i asked
00:43:57a question nobody can talk to her and there's a word for how it made me feel that i don't
00:44:04use on the
00:44:05podcast but it made me feel bad i'll just say it like that i think there's one missing letter from
00:44:10how it made me feel but it was pretty bad and what i have come to find out so you
00:44:17mentioned
00:44:18the the men who don't say anything i still believed at that point in time that we were under a
00:44:26prophet
00:44:26william branham i believe that yes there were some issues i knew there were some issues we were leaving
00:44:32the church but i still thought he was a prophet i really did it wasn't until i watched how my
00:44:37grandfather
00:44:38behaved that i realized something is wrong here and that's when i saw how he behaved and one other
00:44:44family member which i won't get into that i realized that this is this is a cult this is bad
00:44:49this is not
00:44:50right and i started examining the sermons and i was shocked at what i was allowing my wife to hear
00:44:58i really was in the climax of the worst possible things that you could possibly say to a woman
00:45:06i'm reading a sermon that we heard every year my grandfather played it every year
00:45:11two young men who wanted to date young women and he would play the sermon from branham called marriage
00:45:18and divorce which is one of the most famous sermons in in branhamism in fact if you're in nar
00:45:24you are in nar because branham existed you're in there because of these themes that he had in his sermons
00:45:30but they don't come out and say it nearly so explicitly branham came out and he says you men
00:45:37who can't control your women and i'm paraphrasing greatly he said women were made from the very
00:45:43beginning in the garden of eden to deceive men there's nothing lower on the face of the planet
00:45:48they're not as low as a dog they're not as low as a hawk he's saying this and that i
00:45:54am quoting verbatim
00:45:56when i saw that i actually got angry because every single man who's sitting there in the louis
00:46:03lamore books they would have rose up and they would have slugged him with their fist
00:46:06that's how bad this was you just insulted my wife you're not going to get away with insulting my wife
00:46:12but he insulted every female who was in here but more than that he insulted the men indirectly which
00:46:19is i know it sounds bad and people can hate me for this but it's actually worse for the men
00:46:24because they did not even earn being disrespected to their face they said you indirectly and and
00:46:33referring to how they're treating their women so they get the indirect insult instead of the direct
00:46:39insult and they don't know how to handle it and so the men just cower and what it finally what
00:46:46finally hit me was the pastor in these movements have become the substitute father but not just the
00:46:55substitute father in a normal healthy family unit this is an angry father who has obedience issues who
00:47:03has anger issues who has mental health issues all a wide variety of issues you're in that type of
00:47:11environment and whenever they start lashing out at you making fun of you all of these things that
00:47:16are doing is spiritual abuse what you are what you're happening in your head what you're doing is you're
00:47:23caving to the father who's actually beating you with a whip you're in that moment in your head where
00:47:30you're being beaten men and women in these movements so what it creates is this dynamic where that
00:47:37it's training you how you as a father should treat your family because i as a pastor am treating you
00:47:44my
00:47:44congregation like this yeah yeah no that's perfect john uh perfect segue into the last thing that i'm
00:47:53going to mention here the fifth and last thing that nar leaders tend to do is they um they make
00:48:01the men
00:48:02into protectors of the institution and in your case the message right rather than protectors of their
00:48:11their wives and their children and just um vulnerable people you know the bible is full of uh verses that
00:48:23says that we need to protect the widows and the orphans and you know the the poor and the the
00:48:31least of these
00:48:32you know you do you do things for the least of these you do it for me and yet why
00:48:40is it that in
00:48:41these abusive churches it is the exact opposite the innocent ones the you know the ones that are being
00:48:50neglected and ignored they're the ones that get shunned they're the ones that oh well pastor doesn't
00:48:59like them pastor doesn't like john and jennifer so let's not talk to them ever again like where
00:49:07how do we even um how did we even get to this point because the same thing happened to my
00:49:14friend my
00:49:14my former co-worker from pdi sally and her husband you know that's i i tried to reach out to
00:49:22them but by
00:49:23then they were just too hurt you know and they just left um so instead of protecting people many male
00:49:31leaders
00:49:32and just men in the church are conditioned to protect the institution they become protectors
00:49:40of the apostle of the prophet of the senior pastor of the ministry brand because it is a branding
00:49:48right we need to protect the reputation of the church and the ministry at all costs um and that's
00:49:58why cover-up culture is prevalent because we do not want anything to mar the perfect image and um
00:50:13and i know for me you know thank you for sharing your personal story that you experience with your
00:50:19family you and your wife um i know for me when i was shunned when i became a single mom
00:50:27with three kids
00:50:29i was desperate for for a kind word you know just a helping hand from some of my former church
00:50:39mates
00:50:40and i was kind of shocked that they would just drop me like a hot potato like i didn't even
00:50:49exist
00:50:50and um you know and and i know again for men um they they experience all of that like i'll
00:51:03talk a little
00:51:11in progress in the past two things a little bit about that like i don't know about you um i
00:51:18always
00:51:18could be able to take this to them at once you know that you know what you're doing all of
00:51:27that
00:51:27you know and i don't know because i was up and i had you no doubt so that you know
00:51:29that's
00:51:29not it you know that you know and i was up and you know um for you know that i'm
00:51:37not
00:51:37from him that had we both been part of a healthy church had we both been counseled properly by
00:51:48trauma-informed professionals by mental health professionals because he did have serious mental
00:51:55issues you know anger was just one of them um he might have been a different man you know
00:52:05but like you said if you already enter these systems broken and maybe already dealing with
00:52:14mental health issues being in this system only makes you crazier it makes you even more depressed
00:52:23even prone maybe to suicidal ideations which we haven't really talked about and i know it's kind
00:52:30of tricky but you know i i know of men who have actually taken that route because the pain inside
00:52:41was just too much for them to handle you know that mental anguish so um yeah so i i think
00:52:49i'm just going
00:52:50to end there because um you know i i really wanted our audience you know to be aware that women
00:53:01are the
00:53:02ones female victims nowadays tend to be more vocal i see them a lot in these exposure videos if you
00:53:09want to call it that but i i'd really like to hear more men you know like how how did
00:53:17it affect you
00:53:18and are you still dealing with with all that and and what are you doing about it you know where
00:53:26do you
00:53:26go for help because that's something that me and my female friends have actually talked about like it's
00:53:32great that we formed this like community of women but is there a similar community for men
00:53:41who need just as much if not more help in this healing journey and restoration journey that we're
00:53:51all in it's really hard because for a female the abuse looks different for a man what is happening is
00:54:00you are starting to submit and you're starting to tell your inner self that you must submit
00:54:07and therefore you must keep quiet and i'll say it like this when a person needs pastoral permission
00:54:15to obey your conscience something happens inside of you that you can't really get past it it contains
00:54:24you it controls you and when you leave you leave so broken but you've been trained not to speak
00:54:29the thoughts that are coming in your head the things that you need to say stand up and say no
00:54:33you
00:54:34will not insult my wife from behind the pulpit people don't say this they bottle them up and
00:54:38what happens is there isn't really a way that a support group of men can thrive because everybody
00:54:46is bottled up it would be like if you get a bunch of turtles wanting to talk and they all
00:54:51go in their
00:54:51shell which is the which is the first turtle to speak right one of the interesting things i've been
00:54:58to a therapist and i highly recommend this for anybody who is going through what we've described
00:55:04there's this fear of what therapy is and when i remember the first time i go in there you're told
00:55:10this
00:55:11is the guy who's going to give you a demon they're going to rip your mind out they're going to
00:55:15all of
00:55:16this stuff they they have instilled this fictional fear in your head and i thought this guy was like
00:55:22saruman the sorcerer you know he's going to take advantage of me and all they do really for the
00:55:29most part is they get you to talk so for the man who has bottled everything up for 37 i
00:55:35was 37 years
00:55:36in this thing i had trouble talking the first few times i go but what they do is they try
00:55:42to find ways
00:55:42to get you to open up and to speak and it isn't that they're healing you it's that you're healing
00:55:49yourself whenever you talk about it your brain is forced to process what you have for 37 me 37 years
00:55:55had not processed i had not processed that i let this person insult my wife from these recordings
00:56:01but suddenly i'm having to now oh my gosh what have i done and i start you start to feel
00:56:07this inward
00:56:08you know inward confession of of your own sins because i was i was a bad person when i was
00:56:15in this
00:56:15well once you start talking and opening up they don't really give you advice on how to fix it
00:56:22they let they enable you to work through it yourself so that you can fix it and you can move
00:56:28on
00:56:29so what i would say as far as a support group for men first they should probably get into some
00:56:35therapy
00:56:35then after that what would happen if there were to be such a group and i still don't know if
00:56:41it would
00:56:41work somebody who has opened up would do the same thing a therapist would do to get others to open
00:56:48up but in doing so they might be better off to go to a therapist so so there's there are
00:56:56some issues
00:56:56with this but in the end the problem is real men had spiritual abuse and it manifested in such a
00:57:04different way where everybody balls it up nobody talks about these things so i'm glad you got to play
00:57:10guinea pig with me and get me to open up some well i want to end by sharing something that
00:57:17happened
00:57:18two days ago so um i don't know if you can see there's a wooden fence right behind me but
00:57:24beyond
00:57:24that fence is the ocean i wish you could see the ocean it's beautiful so um we also run a
00:57:31diving resort
00:57:32um here in this this land that we're in um which we inherited from my mom and um so i
00:57:40learned how to
00:57:41scuba dive at 58 years old so it's one of my favorite hobbies now it's never too late
00:57:47um and so i went diving two days ago and i saw a sea turtle and i was so excited
00:57:56they're they're kind
00:57:57of rare uh in these parts so i started running after the sea turtle because you mentioned turtles
00:58:03so it came to my mind and i started swimming not run but swimming after the sea turtle and of
00:58:12course
00:58:12that sea turtle's darting away right because he senses danger and my dive instructor holds my fins like
00:58:20pulls me back and says that's not the way you know he's doing through through sign language that is
00:58:27not the way to do it he says like like just stay still and you know and just try to
00:58:35like calm yourself
00:58:37but kind of like in your peripheral vision see what the sea turtle's doing so i did i was just
00:58:44still
00:58:44and then i was looking and the sea turtle became curious right and and he flipped around and he's
00:58:53just like circling me and he's like okay i'm not gonna go near you but you're just sitting there and
00:59:01you know i i can't tell if you're friendly or not but i'm gonna stick around a little bit so
00:59:07i got to enjoy that turtle a lot longer than if i had swam after it so here's my point
00:59:18i am married to a firefighter husband now right he's amazing he's wonderful but just like my boys
00:59:26when they would come home from school how was work honey it was good really anything happen
00:59:33not really i mean he's a firefighter he has exciting stories right i have learned to wait i have
00:59:39learned i'm talking to the wives now okay i have learned to wait and just like okay here's your
00:59:46dinner you know and just i keep my mouth shut because sometimes it's weird like well let me tell
00:59:52you about my day honey and blah blah blah blah blah like i have learned to wait like are you
00:59:57sure you
00:59:58you look a little worried like you know i think my trauma informed counseling training kicks in and
01:00:07i kind of put on the you know the hat of a therapist even though i'm like a pseudo therapist
01:00:12and i have
01:00:14learned to just wait and let him you know like um through his own timing through his own ways express
01:00:26to me
01:00:26how he's feeling you know how his day really went so just a little bit of advice there you know
01:00:34that i
01:00:35think um women or you know most most female females tend to like come on tell me tell me tell
01:00:44me you know
01:00:44kind of like when i was swimming after that sea turtle and sometimes um patience patience is a virtue
01:00:52and i think um if we wait long enough and if we're really training ourselves to be good listeners
01:01:00maybe the men will start to open up to us good things come to those who wait thank you so
01:01:05much
01:01:05for doing this thank you john if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information you can check
01:01:11us out on the web you can find us at william-branham.org and piahugoministries.com for more about the
01:01:18dark
01:01:18side of the new apostolic reformation you can read weaponized religion from christian identity
01:01:22to the nar available on amazon kindle and audible
01:01:55so
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