- 4 weeks ago
John and Frannie discuss the world of extreme spiritual warfare, deliverance, discernment, and supernatural claims, asking what happens when extraordinary stories are accepted without evidence or meaningful challenge. Drawing from their own experiences, they examine how fear, anxiety, hypervigilance, and ordinary experiences can be interpreted through a spiritual framework—and how charismatic authority can make questioning those interpretations difficult.
They also explore what this environment can mean for children who grow up hearing stories about demons, witches, warlocks, the rapture, curses, and invisible spiritual threats. John and Franny consider how critical thinking can become suppressed, how fear can be mistaken for discernment, and why examining the larger system of authority and platforming may be more important than focusing on any single leader.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
02:02 Katie Souza and the Warlock Story
06:30 Believing the Unbelievable
10:01 Growing Up With Supernatural Fear
15:09 When Spiritual Warfare Replaces Evidence
20:07 Discernment, Fear, and Spiritual Authority
24:06 Hypervigilance Disguised as Discernment
29:35 When Normal Experiences Become Spiritual Warfare
33:07 What These Teachings Do to Children
38:18 Deliverance Culture and Unchallenged Claims
42:18 Adults and Children Living in Different Worlds
47:27 The Fear Children Carry
53:00 Unlearning Fear, Shame, and Paranoia
55:43 Questioning the System Itself
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
They also explore what this environment can mean for children who grow up hearing stories about demons, witches, warlocks, the rapture, curses, and invisible spiritual threats. John and Franny consider how critical thinking can become suppressed, how fear can be mistaken for discernment, and why examining the larger system of authority and platforming may be more important than focusing on any single leader.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
02:02 Katie Souza and the Warlock Story
06:30 Believing the Unbelievable
10:01 Growing Up With Supernatural Fear
15:09 When Spiritual Warfare Replaces Evidence
20:07 Discernment, Fear, and Spiritual Authority
24:06 Hypervigilance Disguised as Discernment
29:35 When Normal Experiences Become Spiritual Warfare
33:07 What These Teachings Do to Children
38:18 Deliverance Culture and Unchallenged Claims
42:18 Adults and Children Living in Different Worlds
47:27 The Fear Children Carry
53:00 Unlearning Fear, Shame, and Paranoia
55:43 Questioning the System Itself
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Franny Nance, former
00:00:45member of Charismania.
00:00:47Franny, it's so good to be back and to talk about this crazy thing that you have sent me
00:00:52this week.
00:00:54I'm not going to lie, I was a little bit taken back.
00:00:57There are things that shock me whenever I'm examining all of this stuff, and then there
00:01:01are things that really shock me, and I don't know, we'll talk about that.
00:01:07What we're actually talking about today, I don't know if you've seen the show Stranger
00:01:10Things.
00:01:11One of my favorite shows, it's crazy good, but it would be like Stranger Things told from
00:01:18the other side, and not many people think about the other side.
00:01:21So here's this group of kids, they're in this town, all of these bad things are happening
00:01:26every season to this town, totally destroying parts of the city, and traumatizing the people
00:01:32in it.
00:01:33Well, the kids come out as heroes, and you're looking forward to the next season of the
00:01:36heroes.
00:01:37But what about the other side?
00:01:39What about the people that are left traumatized?
00:01:42Nobody's ever thought about what it would be like to live in a city where these things
00:01:46are coming up out of the ground and snagging people.
00:01:48You'd be terrified.
00:01:49You would not want to stay in it, and the sad truth is, that's kind of like the religion
00:01:54that we came out of.
00:01:56It was Stranger Things, and they were terrorizing us, but yet we wanted to stay in it, which
00:02:01is really, really weird.
00:02:02Mm-hmm.
00:02:03Yeah.
00:02:03Now, what John is referencing was an Instagram video I came across by a creator named April
00:02:12Joy, and she was recreating a pastor, or not pastor, I don't even know, apostle, self-appointed
00:02:22apostle prophet, Katie Souza, who I was not very familiar with.
00:02:28One time I fought with a warlock who astral projected as a light being into the room I was
00:02:33in, and I physically fought with him.
00:02:35It was a knife fight.
00:02:36He had this crooked blade like this.
00:02:39It was actually made of light.
00:02:40This is so, I, how do you even explain these things?
00:02:43And I actually snagged it from him and buried it in his chest and said, Dominion, Dominion,
00:02:48Dominion, Dominion, and he popped out.
00:02:50There was actually witches that were flying around the house that were setting up a perimeter
00:02:54or a grid for him to be able to do that.
00:02:56Oh my gosh.
00:02:56And when I woke up in the morning, I had physical bruises all over my body.
00:03:01So this was not just a fight in the spirit.
00:03:04This stuff is real.
00:03:06And it was comedic, and it caught my attention because I thought it was so funny, but it's
00:03:13also, I've lived that.
00:03:16Not lived where I'm, you know, battling a witch, but lived in that environment where
00:03:21people tell these stories.
00:03:22So, basically, it's an interview that Katie Souza is doing on a podcast, and she's talking
00:03:28about telling this guy about her battle with a warlock, that the warlock astral projects
00:03:34into her house, and, you know, she's fighting him, and he has a dagger, and she has to turn
00:03:41and stab the dagger into him and yells, Dominion, and while this is happening, there's a coven
00:03:46of witches that are setting up a perimeter, these are her words, around her house.
00:03:51So, the warlock can, you know, attack her.
00:03:56And it's funny, because in the real, this creator is jokingly reenacting it to make it
00:04:02really does, it seems so absurd.
00:04:04But I ended up, I watched that, and then she did another part where Katie Souza talks about
00:04:09how that same warlock appeared and got in bed with her and was trying to recruit her
00:04:14to his side.
00:04:16And it's, reading the comments, you know, people, some people are like, this is insane,
00:04:21and it just seems so ridiculous.
00:04:23But I actually have real stories from people that were, had positions of authority in my
00:04:32life, my family, that told those stories as truth to me as a young person, a kid, and
00:04:39I was traumatized.
00:04:40So, I appreciated this creator, because it actually, you know, brought some light and,
00:04:45you know, to that trauma that I experienced.
00:04:49But I think it just sort of got me thinking on just the system itself, the fact that there
00:04:58are people out there, like a Katie Souza, who, by the way, is being promoted by Charisma
00:05:02Magazine that's coming out with a book.
00:05:04The Roy's Report was just talking about it where, you know, we can talk about it more,
00:05:08but she gets into the fact that she said that an alien took her eggs in the middle of the
00:05:13night and is now created alien.
00:05:16I mean, I couldn't even read the article, because I was like, this is insane.
00:05:19But these, in this system, these are people that are, you know, set up and given positions
00:05:30of authority, and no one really challenged, no one really actually challenges it, because
00:05:35I think some of the stories are so insane, and you can't prove that.
00:05:40And so, you're taking these people on their word, but this Charismania deliverance system,
00:05:47just, you give over your authority, agency, whatever, to these people, and we just give
00:05:53them, we allow them to tell whatever stories.
00:05:58And so, anyway, I just thought we could get into that and sort of spend some time talking
00:06:03about that system itself.
00:06:05It's not just like, oh, that one weird person, and, you know, we kind of move on, but it's
00:06:10why does this movement, we attract that, we platform them, and then wonder why these abuses
00:06:19continue, or why people stay stuck, or what.
00:06:23But, and it's, you know, we all play a role in that, but it is, it's this system that's
00:06:28set up to attract that.
00:06:30It's such a crazy system.
00:06:32What's funny is, whenever I was in brandimism, we looked at all of this mess and this chaos
00:06:37as chaos, and we would correctly brand it as something that just did not make any sense,
00:06:43and was quite absurd.
00:06:44Yet, we were doing many of the same things.
00:06:46That's the really, really crazy part of all of this.
00:06:49I have sitting on my desk a little sword that somebody gave me, because I did a podcast
00:06:56talking about William Branham, who claimed he had a magic sword.
00:06:59I grew up, as a teenager, listening to these recordings of this magic sword, and even as
00:07:05an adult, I'm believing that the man had a magic sword.
00:07:08And yet, I'm in IT, there's no way I should believe this, but you shut off all critical
00:07:13thinking, and even people who are highly intelligent, you fall for this stuff.
00:07:18It's really, really difficult.
00:07:20The thing that I'll say about the Katie Sousa video, I listened to both of those, and whenever
00:07:28she started talking about the creature that got in bed with her, she made some comment
00:07:33and said something to the effect, I know how good you are, as he lifted up the covers.
00:07:37The way she said it made me question a lot of things.
00:07:42We had the last meeting, everything was great, we go back to our Airbnb.
00:07:46I lay down, I'm thinking, hey, victory, we took out this warlock, you know, for the meeting,
00:07:51the meeting's great.
00:07:52I'm starting to go to sleep, I'm worshiping, and all of a sudden, he comes sliding in from
00:07:57the side, and he's now in the bed next to me, and he goes like this.
00:08:03He taps the bed, and basically said to me, you have mad skills, you need to get in bed
00:08:10with me.
00:08:11Wow.
00:08:12He tried to recruit me.
00:08:13And I'm just going to put that off to the side, because I'm going to give her the benefit
00:08:17of the doubt that she truly believes this, but I will say this, I have family who have
00:08:22mental health issues, and I understand the complexities of what happens when you have
00:08:27mental health issues.
00:08:28There is a chance that she truly believes that this thing happened, and this creature got
00:08:33in bed with her and said she was the best thing since sliced bread.
00:08:36That may exist in her brain as being real, but I understand what happens when people are
00:08:43suffering.
00:08:44I want to focus instead, at least for my part of this podcast, I want to focus on what
00:08:49happens to the people who sit through that.
00:08:52Say there is some mental health issues or whatever.
00:08:55When people aren't shutting off critical thinking, and they're believing everything that is said
00:09:00as though it is a mythology about the movement, then that mythology starts to enter their brain
00:09:06as reality.
00:09:07And so somebody who's struggling with mental health might actually impact the entire congregation
00:09:14through a mythological standpoint, and then the mythology grows.
00:09:18And what happens is when you have a sort of mental health disorder, you may feed on the people
00:09:24that you're telling it to, and then it grows worse and worse and worse.
00:09:27Now, I'm not saying that she has anything wrong.
00:09:29I don't know.
00:09:30I don't know her.
00:09:31Like I said, I do have some questions about what she said, but in the end, it comes to
00:09:36this, if it were painted as a Stranger Things fictional show that I can turn on Hulu and
00:09:42I can watch, or Netflix and I can watch, it might make an interesting show, but as part
00:09:48of a Christian church, what in the world is she thinking?
00:09:52This is not something that you really talk about in Christian churches unless you want
00:09:56the focus to be on you and not on Christ or the Bible.
00:10:01One thing with that reel and Katie Sousa's story really stood out to me because people
00:10:06are like, well, this lady's crazy.
00:10:08And I'm like, there are plenty more like her.
00:10:13And there is a family friend of ours that we grew up with, and she had a lot of influence
00:10:19in our family.
00:10:20And I've mentioned her before.
00:10:22She has a lot of trauma in her background, was in a concentration camp in Eastern Europe
00:10:28during World War II, a lot of that.
00:10:32So, the reason the video stood out to me is because, so my parents would host her often
00:10:38and advertise like, hey, come to our house.
00:10:43She's going to be here and we're going to have a time of healing.
00:10:46She's so anointed.
00:10:49And again, none of these things, I don't, she didn't have proof of the healings or the
00:10:56manifestations or whatever.
00:10:57We just went off of the stories she told us.
00:11:00And so, one time when she came to our house, my parents hosted people over at her home and
00:11:07they did a night of ministry.
00:11:09And I gave up my room when she came to stay with us and she would stay in my room.
00:11:13Anyway, this is pertinent to the story.
00:11:16So, the next day, she's after the ministry night.
00:11:21I get up, it's breakfast, we're talking and she's packing up and getting ready to leave.
00:11:26So, I'm going to get my room back.
00:11:27And she just proceeds to tell the story where she will say, oh, this one man that was there
00:11:35who I knew and was pretty beloved in the community.
00:11:38And she's like, when I prayed for him, he had a weird manifestation.
00:11:41There was a weird, you know, sexual spirit that came off of him.
00:11:45And, you know, we're all like, well, what?
00:11:47And she said, well, yeah.
00:11:48So, that night I went to bed.
00:11:50And as I'm laying in bed, this asexual being just shows up in my room.
00:11:56And it comes towards me and is whining and wants to snuggle with me.
00:12:00And I'm just trying to cast it out and it won't listen.
00:12:03And it crawls into bed with me and is trying to snuggle with me.
00:12:08I'm, okay, I'm a child.
00:12:09I'm hearing this like a teenager.
00:12:11I'm like, what?
00:12:12And I'm thinking, she's sleeping in my bed.
00:12:14It's like she's telling the story.
00:12:16And she said the only thing that made it go away was she had to take her Bible and wrap
00:12:22it around the being's head and squeeze it and it disappeared.
00:12:26What?
00:12:27So, I, okay.
00:12:28So, think about like you're raised like this.
00:12:30You're a kid.
00:12:31This is a person that you trust.
00:12:33And I'm around this my entire life.
00:12:35And so, I'm thinking, it is thinking critically in a sense of, wait a second, we're told that,
00:12:41you know, Jesus came, defeated death, that he has authority over the devil, that you just
00:12:45have to cast out demons and, you know, speak his name and the devil will flee.
00:12:50Well, this one's not fleeing, you know?
00:12:51And so, there's always, the bar's always moving.
00:12:54It's always changing.
00:12:55So, I heard multiple stories like that growing up.
00:13:00And those things stay with you.
00:13:03They implant in you.
00:13:04And, you know, no one's challenging this woman.
00:13:07It's someone that we trust and she's been given a position of authority in our family,
00:13:12but also in various churches where she speaks and in this, you know, charismatic movement.
00:13:17So, that is why a person like a Katie Souza is, in my mind, it's not just her being dangerous,
00:13:27but it's also just people platforming her and then the system that perpetuates that.
00:13:31And my, again, I don't know Katie Souza's mental state.
00:13:34However, I know, I have read that there's trauma in her background.
00:13:38And so, there seems to me where I'm identifying there's a pattern of people that don't receive,
00:13:45you know, the mental help or the help, the physical, whatever it is, the help that they need help.
00:13:51And so, they just map this, like, spiritual warfare deliverance language onto what they experienced.
00:14:01And then we platform them and then they perpetuate that onto other people instead of, you know,
00:14:09the same person was like, if I'm experiencing anxiety, well, it's back to the same thing we've talked about.
00:14:17Will you open the door to the devil? Or you're so anointed, the devil's coming at you.
00:14:23And that's kind of the language that I see a Katie Souza use, where it's like, look how anointed and
00:14:29powerful I am.
00:14:30And it continues to bolster her platform. You know, the devil's coming after me.
00:14:35And I was, I did a little, just a Reddit search. I'm always curious what people are saying.
00:14:42And it's interesting because there's a lot of defenders of her online.
00:14:47And this is what I heard about many people in ministry, in the deliverance or charismatic ministry growing up,
00:14:54where it's like, well, they're a demon slayer.
00:14:55They're on another level.
00:14:57Like, they are really anointed, so they deal in things that we just don't know.
00:15:04And I'm just, who says? And what's the evidence that supports that?
00:15:09You know, that's just it. What is the evidence?
00:15:12Usually on the podcast, I cover the historical aspects of the ministries,
00:15:16because you can look to the histories and you can plainly see that there's a problem here.
00:15:20But whenever these groups take it into the so-called spiritual realm,
00:15:24and they're talking about witches and warlocks and demons and all kinds of nutty stuff,
00:15:29Branham said, I should mention this, Branham claimed that one of the demons that plagued him
00:15:34looked exactly like Ali Oop from the funny papers.
00:15:37And if you know that cartoon, you're like, what in the world did that man just say?
00:15:41And we believed that hook, line, and sinker.
00:15:43I grew up believing that Ali Oop was plaguing William Branham. It's crazy.
00:15:47But when you're growing up in this world where they're throwing everything into the spiritual side,
00:15:52you can't critically think. There is no way to critically examine this.
00:15:57You're basically left. Either you believe it or you don't.
00:16:00It's only one of those two things.
00:16:02But what it gives you, whether you believe it or whether you don't,
00:16:06it trains you in this worldview where you're constantly scanning for danger.
00:16:11Everywhere you look, there is danger.
00:16:14It's an invisible danger that you can't see.
00:16:16And for people, like people I knew who really didn't believe in that spiritual warfare stuff,
00:16:23I didn't believe it in the way that you did,
00:16:25I still looked for it because they were trying to battle me.
00:16:29And I was trying to fight the invisible demon.
00:16:32And that's what you're doing.
00:16:33You're looking under every rock.
00:16:35You get in bed at the hotel.
00:16:38Granted, I don't believe that any is going to get in bed and say,
00:16:41John, you're really, really good, as they lift up the covers.
00:16:44But you're looking for things that aren't there.
00:16:47And that type of worldview, it plagues your mind until literally people go crazy over this stuff.
00:16:54Yeah.
00:16:55Also with, and again, I'm not a mental health therapist.
00:16:58I don't.
00:16:59I just can only go off of my own personal experience.
00:17:02But a lot of times, too, people try to map on spiritual.
00:17:07And I get it.
00:17:08Like, if you've suffered some deep trauma and, you know, really looking into, like, complex PTSD
00:17:16and really borderline personality disorder, kind of understanding that a little bit more,
00:17:22where you have suffered a lot of deep childhood trauma.
00:17:26And you do look for ways to map.
00:17:30Like, you do feel crazy.
00:17:31Like, so you try to find significance in it or you try to map, you know, language onto it.
00:17:38And so I think that this woman in our life definitely, I know she suffered a lot, but in, you
00:17:46know,
00:17:46there was always a spiritual language mapped onto it.
00:17:51You know, I'm depressed or I, this person's rejecting me.
00:17:55I'm perceiving this person is rejecting me.
00:17:58So therefore, they must be a witch.
00:18:00And they sense the Jesus in me.
00:18:02So I need to, whatever, pray against them.
00:18:06Or instead of just like, I don't think this person's rejecting you.
00:18:09They could be in a bad mood.
00:18:10They might not have seen you.
00:18:12There's just, it's always, instead of a, let's look at this rationally.
00:18:17And it doesn't, it causes torment for the person themselves who thinks, well, you know,
00:18:23instead of maybe they had a bad day, I'm going to move on with my life.
00:18:25It's like, oh, there's witches everywhere.
00:18:27And I'm receiving this rejection.
00:18:29It's this grandiosity where it's, you know, it all revolves around you.
00:18:34And like you were saying, you are looking for a demon under every rock.
00:18:39And it's dangerous in a sense because it also, if people don't challenge that,
00:18:47it just keeps you in a really dangerous feedback loop too.
00:18:50Because if you, and when I solve people's comments on Reddit and the same thing with my own life,
00:18:55if you even ask the question, like, did that really happen?
00:18:59You know, come on.
00:19:01Then it's like, well, that's a religious spirit.
00:19:04And that's a religious demon that is now like warfare against me.
00:19:09You know, the God's anointed because you're questioning them or you don't have faith
00:19:13or that's a spirit of doubt.
00:19:14And so, people like me growing up in it, then you're just like, I don't want to open the door
00:19:20to the devil because doubting is an open door.
00:19:23So, I, you know, I want to, you know, I'm not going to doubt that.
00:19:27And, you know, this woman in our life, and I see this in ministry too,
00:19:33they have a lot of power over you and these people because you put them,
00:19:38you think, okay, well, they're so anointed.
00:19:40They're on this level that I'm not on.
00:19:41They're saying they see demons.
00:19:43They're saying there's manifestations around them.
00:19:46I'm not seeing it, but I guess they're just more spiritual than me
00:19:49because they use the Bible.
00:19:51They use scripture.
00:19:52They can at times function normally.
00:19:55So, there is that slow silencing of your own discernment and critical thinking,
00:20:03and you allow, you substitute their authority or their discernment.
00:20:07And I will say, I'm not trying to harp on this woman, so I'm not using her name,
00:20:12but she just had such an outsized influence on her family.
00:20:19And I see that in these movements with a lot of these ministers like a Katie Souza
00:20:24or a Catherine Crick that, you know, we haven't really talked about,
00:20:27but she's another one that's out there.
00:20:30And I want to say that because they also use the term, I use the term discernment,
00:20:35but they use that against you as well.
00:20:39I do remember whenever this woman would come visit us,
00:20:42we would all be on edge like, what is she going to discern on us?
00:20:46We're not doing anything wrong, but I don't know.
00:20:49Like, she might sense something that I've been into that I didn't realize I was into,
00:20:53so there was this fear of being falsely accused.
00:20:55There's this fear of what door did I open because she's so anointed.
00:21:00And then my sisters and I were always terrified because we're thinking like,
00:21:03please, I don't want to hear anything.
00:21:06I don't want to see anything.
00:21:08I just, I want to go to sleep.
00:21:10And I will say to this day, you know, my sister would share this,
00:21:13one of them just struggles with her sleep because it's,
00:21:16we could watch a true crime movie documentary all day long.
00:21:22That doesn't scare us.
00:21:24Anything supernatural, you know, I've had to work through that.
00:21:29So, honestly, watching stuff like Stranger Things, it's like,
00:21:32this is an entertaining show.
00:21:35This is not real.
00:21:36You know, like, this is a show.
00:21:38I can remove that versus a lot of times with anything spiritual,
00:21:42it's terrifying as a child and you kind of grow up and it's embedded there.
00:21:48And it takes a lot of work to have to speak to yourself in a critically thinking way of,
00:21:57you know, let's challenge that.
00:21:59What's the evidence?
00:22:00What are we seeing?
00:22:01And instead of just going with it and staying stuck in that cycle.
00:22:07Well, and that cycle is debilitating.
00:22:11To people who are in that cycle, fear and anxiety actually turns into discernment.
00:22:16I knew this guy who went into this office for an interview and he came out saying,
00:22:21I could just sense the spirits in that place.
00:22:23I'm not sure if I want to work there or not.
00:22:25And this is an office building where guys are like sitting at a computer doing boring stuff, right?
00:22:30There's no territorial spirit to plaguing this office, I can assure you.
00:22:34But what he felt was anxiety.
00:22:35And when you're in that mindset, anything that is fear, you feel it's a spirit,
00:22:41what it trains you to do is to reevaluate your own emotions and try to put it also in the
00:22:47spiritual realm.
00:22:48And by doing that, I mean, there's a reason why we have our emotions.
00:22:52There's a reason God gave us the instinct for fear.
00:22:55It's to protect us, right?
00:22:57Well, if we shove that into the spiritual realm and we're not even thinking about our own fears,
00:23:02I give it to God, give the glory to God, and he's going to take away this demon that's infesting
00:23:07me.
00:23:07Well, what if there's a real reason for your fear and you need to turn and run?
00:23:12Well, that type of mentality puts us actually in physical danger, if you think that through.
00:23:17But more to the point, it turns people into basically zombies.
00:23:22I hate to say it, but you go into a building and you're afraid to go to a job interview
00:23:26because a territorial spirit might infest a building.
00:23:29Well, how are you even going to get a job?
00:23:30Every job interview is going to give you some form of some level of anxiety.
00:23:36I came out of that mindset because I did have that to an extent.
00:23:40I came out of that mindset because when I began my business, I was kind of forced into that anxiety.
00:23:46When you go try to get new clients, you're going to be anxious no matter what.
00:23:50And the only way it works is if you conquer those demons, right?
00:23:53So I kind of forced myself through it.
00:23:56But there are people who just bottle up and they do nothing because of it.
00:23:59And you only have the ministers to blame who are projecting this type of fear on your being.
00:24:05Yes, I love that you said that about discernment.
00:24:08And sometimes you're discerning an evil spirit, but it's normal anxiety for starting something new or going somewhere.
00:24:18And it does keep you trapped.
00:24:21It's interesting.
00:24:23One thing with childhood trauma, people develop something called hypervigilance.
00:24:30And sometimes it can be a real superpower.
00:24:32You can read the room.
00:24:33You can be kind of intuitive and sort of know.
00:24:37And I think that a lot of times people take that hypervigilance and substitute it as like it's a spiritual
00:24:43gift.
00:24:44I mean, I did that.
00:24:45But it's interesting because I'm, you know, 44.
00:24:49That hypervigilance does not serve me anymore.
00:24:52In fact, it's a hindrance.
00:24:54Like, I've noticed that in my own professional life where I'm thinking, I'm overreading this.
00:25:02You know, I need to relax and just roll with it.
00:25:06You know, I'm trying too hard to overread this.
00:25:08And so I'm getting in my own way.
00:25:10And so that's actually, you know, something I've been working through in therapy is not just, you know, like you
00:25:15were saying, your emotions are there for a reason.
00:25:17But is this rooted in a past, you know, pattern that isn't serving me anymore?
00:25:24You know, what is this data giving me?
00:25:26And I think with a lot of times people are saying hypervigilance, but it's, you know, oh, this is discernment,
00:25:33but it's hypervigilance and it's paranoia.
00:25:38Um, there is, you know, same person growing up to, you know, this woman was very obsessed with her looks
00:25:46and her weight, just tormented, you know, I don't want to get fat.
00:25:49I don't want to, you know, whatever.
00:25:50And again, grew up around someone with an eating disorder.
00:25:56Anyway, point being, she would tell the story about a woman who was from Eastern Europe, where she was that
00:26:06came over to the U.S.
00:26:07And so they met and she was trying to help her settle in.
00:26:11And she said, I had to cut this woman out of my life.
00:26:14And we were like, well, what happened?
00:26:15Well, she just kept, you know, bringing me baked goods and stuff that she was making.
00:26:22And she said it was a thank you for all the help I've given her.
00:26:24But it's a spirit of jealousy on her because she's trying to make me fat.
00:26:28And so she just kept bringing me all this stuff.
00:26:31And the more you, and you have to look out for that.
00:26:33Women are jealous.
00:26:34And so, and they've got that spirit on them.
00:26:37And so they will try to make you fat by bringing you.
00:26:41And I'm thinking, looking back on that, I'm like, the woman didn't probably have any other way to thank her
00:26:45other than like making her food and bringing her, showing her gratitude for her help.
00:26:51But there was that too with, do you have acne?
00:26:56Well, then someone's probably cursing you, you know, or you open a door to the devil.
00:27:02Or, well, okay, so you prayed against the devil, you've prayed against curses.
00:27:07Well, maybe now it's a health issue.
00:27:09I mean, it was just, you are just constantly going back to that person that you think is anointed to
00:27:16give you more answers, to have like a deeper insight.
00:27:19Well, maybe if I can get to this next level, I'll understand.
00:27:22But there's always, with this deliverance ministry and discernment and healing, all of that, there's always some, they always come
00:27:30up with a new name.
00:27:32Like there's a spirit of blah, blah, blah over this area, principality or whatever.
00:27:37And when I would push back and say like, well, I don't see that in the Bible, it's, you know,
00:27:42they give you some word salad where it's just like, well, in the scripture and, you know, they go into
00:27:47this Leviticus where this principality did this to Israel.
00:27:51So, this is over here and I don't, it's so tiring and they kind of talk around it.
00:27:56So, you just sort of believe them, especially if you grow up and you're primed.
00:27:59And I think why some of this is so insidious too is because the spiritual abuse of it all is
00:28:04that it is your beliefs or religious beliefs are, it's, you're vulnerable.
00:28:10It's a sacred, it's, I believe this.
00:28:13Like, and then there's someone who is using that and twisting it for their own purposes.
00:28:20And whether you think that this person knows what they're doing and they're doing it on purpose or whatnot, I
00:28:26mean, I think sometimes these people believe their own delusions.
00:28:29And they will be held accountable for that as well because, you know, you can't claim ignorance.
00:28:36Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter
00:28:44reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?
00:28:49You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
00:28:57On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,
00:29:05John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
00:29:11You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
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00:29:35There's another risk, too, and that is that sometimes when you're caught up in that mindset, you can have a
00:29:41totally normal experience, and your mindset is such that you're in the spiritual warfare realm, and so you want to
00:29:50take your normal experience and put it into that spiritual realm so that you, too, can be just like the
00:29:55kids in Stranger Things, who's actually behind the pulpit preaching Stranger Things.
00:30:01Take, for instance, nightmares.
00:30:03There are many people who have nightmares, and in many instances, the dreams are just simply your brain processing something
00:30:11that happened.
00:30:12That's why if you go to counseling, usually you'll find out that you have this recurring dream about somebody that
00:30:18you really have this deep-rooted issue with, and if you get rid of the deep-rooted issue, then the
00:30:23dreams kind of correct themselves.
00:30:24So you may have a normal issue, but take the person who's been indoctrinated in the spiritual warfare, I'm getting
00:30:30nightmares because the demon is now plaguing me, and you start to believe this.
00:30:35Well, then, there is a problem that exists with some people.
00:30:40They get so caught up in that cycle that the nightmares turn into the spiritual warfare.
00:30:44The spiritual warfare turn into bigger nightmares because that's now rooting in your psyche, and then eventually it cascades into
00:30:51this sleep paralysis.
00:30:53So there are people who are literally paralyzed in fear because they're caught up in this mindset, and it all
00:30:59stems from a person who may be either A, suffering mental delusions behind the pulpit, or B, just lying through
00:31:06their teeth, and you don't know which it is.
00:31:08But in the end, I'm of the opinion that none of it should really be behind the pulpit anyway, because
00:31:14that's not talking about Christianity.
00:31:15This is talking about spiritual warfare that is in a fantasy world that has nothing to do with the Bible.
00:31:20Christians aren't allowed to have anything bad happen to you or have any, you know, suffering or whatever, which I
00:31:26see in the Bible often.
00:31:28It's like there's a lot of suffering and things that happen that we don't have answers for.
00:31:34It's funny, I had a friend send me the Bible project, I don't know if you're aware of that, the
00:31:39video about Ecclesiastes, and just, you know, been watching it or whatever,
00:31:44but thinking about there is wisdom in that of the, you know, we're all vapor, it's not like we're all
00:31:51terrible, but just, it's, there's, sometimes there's things that we don't have answers for, it's, you know, pointless, and we
00:31:59don't know, we won't know.
00:32:00And that's part of being human, and you have to be okay with that.
00:32:04And this type of Christianity, I mean, I think all of it does, but really this NAR, extreme charismania, they
00:32:15love to have an answer for everything, and everything is wrapped up in a bow.
00:32:19And that's kind of how, you know, throwing Bethel out there, too, they are like that, too, you know, we're
00:32:25no sick, no Christian should be, you know, sick, no, no Christian should be suffering, we're here to bring heaven
00:32:33on earth, you know, and then there's no answer for, you know, Bill Johnson's wife passed of cancer, you know,
00:32:41and I'm not trying to throw that in their face, but, you know, she wasn't miraculously healed.
00:32:45But a lot of times these people, too, I've noticed they just kind of move on by, you know, and
00:32:51it's pretty typical, I think, of these leaders who get a platform, if they don't have an answer for it,
00:33:00they just sort of talk over you and move on and try to distract you with, you know, with something
00:33:06else.
00:33:06So we mentioned how the spiritual leader, whenever they're talking about this mythological experience they have, people get caught up
00:33:14in it.
00:33:15I don't think we've talked yet about what happens to children, and this is the part that really bothers me
00:33:20the most.
00:33:21Take the stories that she's talking about, we went to an Airbnb, so this is an unfamiliar place, if you're
00:33:26a child, many children are scared of these places, right, at somebody's house.
00:33:31So we're scared of this initially as a child, and now we've just heard the story that a person is
00:33:36saying where, oh, my gosh, there was a demon in the bed.
00:33:39And think of the small child who gets in the bed alone, usually in an Airbnb, you've got your own
00:33:44rooms, it's as large as a house.
00:33:46Well, they go in the room and the lights are off and it's dark in there, oh, my gosh, what
00:33:51if that demon gets in my bed with me?
00:33:52And what it does, it causes children to grow up in such a level of fear that they can't be
00:33:59raised in a healthy way.
00:34:00I'll just say it like that.
00:34:01The child's experience is not only framed by the mythological supernatural thing, but it's also shaped by their developing mentality
00:34:10of just simply the world around them.
00:34:12They're already struggling with trying to cope with the fact that they're developing their mental skills as they're growing,
00:34:18and you're actually hindering them when you talk about these things.
00:34:22Again, there are places to talk about such things, if you really believe them, behind a Christian setting in a
00:34:30pulpit or in a Christian book.
00:34:31It's just simply not the place to have it.
00:34:33And part of the reason that I do what I do is I remember watching, as I was leaving the
00:34:39cult, I was coming to terms with the fact that this is wrong.
00:34:42But I was watching the sad eyes of the children whenever we were coming to make that decision, and looking
00:34:48around the room at them.
00:34:49I wanted every single child in there to escape this place.
00:34:53I can't do it.
00:34:54I can't talk the parents into making their children leave it.
00:34:56But hopefully something we say can make somebody realize, if you're going to talk about this, if you're going to
00:35:02believe this stuff,
00:35:03even though I say it's out there, it's like a Harry Potter world, if you're going to do this, don't
00:35:09talk about it in front of your children.
00:35:10Let them grow up healthy.
00:35:11Yes, 100%.
00:35:12I would say I do, I have a tender heart towards any child being raised at all in any of
00:35:22this charismania, because it has taken so many years of unlearning and undoing for me.
00:35:30And I am grateful that, you know, I have three kids, and I look at them, and again, I'm not
00:35:36saying I'm this awesome parent, but at the same time, I'm thinking, you have no idea.
00:35:40I was like, when I was your age, I was terrified.
00:35:43But, you know, and I had to know what spiritual warfare was, and, you know, the sword of the spirit.
00:35:49And at any moment, a demon could appear in my room, you know, and I had to be ready.
00:35:55Or, you know, I remember people talking about seeing angels.
00:35:58I'm like, I don't want to see that.
00:36:00I don't, I mean, my sister told me, she's like, I used to pray, please, God, please don't let me
00:36:04see angels.
00:36:05And then we would be shamed for that, you know, like, why don't you want to see the, you know,
00:36:09glory of God, it's so powerful.
00:36:11But there's this, it's like a, this movement loves, they love to talk about these crazy stories, spiritual warfare, these
00:36:18ghost stories, and it bolsters their position that they're these, like, very anointed, powerful people.
00:36:26And it builds into their own grandiosity of, like, I'm this special anointed person.
00:36:32And then they are spewing their own trauma and mess onto other people.
00:36:40Again, these are things that aren't confirmed.
00:36:42Like, I, you can tell me all day long, this is another story I've been told, you know, someone shows
00:36:47up at the door, and all of a sudden their face starts contorting, and they start screaming, what's going on?
00:36:52And this, quote, minister is like, well, it's the power of God that's transforming you.
00:36:56Repent, you know, and I'm thinking, I don't, I don't want that to happen to me.
00:37:01I don't want to see that.
00:37:02Those are all things I would hear as a kid.
00:37:04And I'm like, and then it was like, well, why?
00:37:06Why don't you want, it's the power of God is so amazing.
00:37:09Like, you, you should want people to be set free.
00:37:11And why are you afraid?
00:37:13Like, you have, you know, the power of God in you.
00:37:15And I'm thinking, but then I'm hearing stories where people are having to have literal battles with the devil.
00:37:21And there's just stuff that I'm, you know, I don't need to know about astral projection when I'm 10, you
00:37:28know, or about all these weird things.
00:37:33Meanwhile, this is the same crew of people that are freaking out in the 90s about kids reading Harry Potter,
00:37:38because it's going to get them into witchcraft.
00:37:40And I'm thinking, you all are, you're doing the same thing and actually way worse than something like, and I
00:37:48know people get triggered by Harry Potter.
00:37:49But honestly, like I said, as an adult, I went back and read them.
00:37:54And it's, it's actually a really amazing story of good versus evil.
00:37:59It's not what people think it is.
00:38:02And I would say more of these deliverance, um, spiritual warfare, charismania, healing people, um, are, are way more dangerous
00:38:14in exposing you to that world than, um, a Harry, a Harry Potter book.
00:38:19But something else is interesting as you're saying, like what you expose kids to, these people don't realize what they're
00:38:26exposing children to.
00:38:28And I was thinking too, again, I see these things pop up on social media where that Catherine Crick, who's
00:38:35a church in LA, who's like the next sensational deliverance minister where she's at a book signing in Barnes and
00:38:42Noble and people look like they're being electrocuted.
00:38:45And it's like, oh, look at this.
00:38:46It's the power of God.
00:38:47That is disturbing.
00:38:49Like one, that's not fair to the person that's manifesting.
00:38:52That's embarrassing.
00:38:53Like the, of what you're doing to yourself.
00:38:57And then they get special, you know, no, notoriety because look at me, I'm being touched by God and healed.
00:39:04How do you prove that?
00:39:05You know, she's, she's walking around saying, you know, this person was delivered and God's healing this person right now
00:39:12of autism.
00:39:13And it's like, how do you, how do you know?
00:39:17You just have to take the person's word for it.
00:39:19And if this person's like, oh no, I went to her and they get very defensive.
00:39:22I was there at her church and I was set free and, or I went to a Katie Sousa meeting
00:39:26and they set me free of this.
00:39:28And then I was on the next level where I can see, you know, snakes manifesting and whatnot.
00:39:33This is not healthy.
00:39:36It's not healthy behavior.
00:39:37It's not healthy thinking.
00:39:39And it is keeping you stuck in that loop.
00:39:42But we're also keeping that system going by platforming these people and allowing them unchallenged to do this.
00:39:50But, you know, and then when you do challenge these people, you're told that you're jealous or it's a religious
00:39:57spirit coming after them.
00:39:58And it's the same playbook because I see, I actually saw an interview with Katie Sousa where someone, not Katie,
00:40:05excuse me, I'm getting these people mixed up, with Catherine Crick, where someone was saying, you know, these people are
00:40:10criticizing you.
00:40:12And she's like, well, you know, they're just, I'm not going to speak to that.
00:40:15You know, it's grievous and whatever.
00:40:17But the Lord told me not to defend myself, that he's my defender.
00:40:20And I was like, that is a Mike Bickle, straight out of the IHOP KC, Mike Bickle.
00:40:28And I'm like, you all are all the same.
00:40:30And it's the same thing, you know, with other, I've been in, you know, work environments where there's been a
00:40:35boss that's very, you know, narcissistic in that way where it's like, I'm, you know, I'm not going to speak,
00:40:42those are, I'm not even going to speak to that.
00:40:44That is, the Lord is my defender.
00:40:46And it's like, you know, that's another abusive way that people, you know, keep their power and try to shut
00:40:53down criticism.
00:40:56And in this system, we allow it, we go along with it, we allow them.
00:41:02And to me, a sort of looking at, it's, I love the videos that, you know, make fun of it,
00:41:09expose it.
00:41:10I think it's funny.
00:41:10I like it when people point out, you know, hey, this person's unhealthy.
00:41:14But I think what really needs to happen is, yes, there's this one weird person, but it's a system.
00:41:21There's a, this system is made up of unhealthy, unchecked people who haven't dealt whatever it is with their own
00:41:31mental health issues or trauma, whatever, you know, or maybe they're truly nefarious and just continuing it because they want
00:41:37power and money.
00:41:39And we just keep, keep it going.
00:41:41We're sort of like, oh, well, you know, Todd Bentley had a huge ministry and then he fell.
00:41:47And so, we discard him and throw him off to the wayside.
00:41:49Again, I'm not saying Todd Bentley wasn't an abuser.
00:41:53But it's, you know, and then we find another person to platform and it just, the cycle keeps going, whereas
00:41:58it's like, we need to start questioning.
00:42:00And John, I feel like you've said this before in one of your podcasts as well as listening to where
00:42:04you're not blaming us, like the people who have suffered at the hands of these leaders.
00:42:10But at the same time, at what point are we responsible and need to step out of that system and
00:42:16call out the system itself?
00:42:18Well, think of it like this.
00:42:19It's a system that produces different worlds with different meanings to different people.
00:42:24Take the Harry Potter thing.
00:42:26So, when I was in the movement, we were in this weird world where we saw outside charismatics as evil
00:42:34and corrupt and didn't believe anything that they said.
00:42:37At the same time, many of the people in our group was not allowed to watch television or movies.
00:42:43I was in a special category because my family was up higher than this and the cult leader and his
00:42:48children watched television and we knew it.
00:42:50So, I'm watching television and movies and I'm watching, I watched Harry Potter.
00:42:55I loved it.
00:42:55It was great and I did not think anything about spiritual warfare or anything like this.
00:43:01This is a children's story written for children.
00:43:03That's the way I looked at it.
00:43:04And then I was telling somebody that I watched it and their jaw dropped.
00:43:09Do you not know that the devil can come through your TV and get into your house if you watch
00:43:14this kind of stuff because it's so filled with demons and the demon realm?
00:43:18And I'm like, are you kidding me?
00:43:19This is, that's greater fantasy than even Rowling was writing, right?
00:43:23So, I grew up in that mindset that I could recognize that the children's story was written for the children,
00:43:30but there were adults that didn't.
00:43:33So, you have two different worlds, two different competing worlds.
00:43:36Now, take all of the spiritual warfare that's being told from the person behind the pulpit and all of the
00:43:43adults in there are cheering it on.
00:43:45Yes, you fought a demon.
00:43:46Yes, this demon came into your bed and said, you're really good at what you do while they lifted up
00:43:52the covers.
00:43:52Well, the adults are cheering this on and the children are thinking, oh my gosh, this is a scary thing.
00:43:57I can't believe this happened.
00:43:58So, everybody's viewing the story differently.
00:44:01And yet, at the same time, it's creating it as a mythology where people are supposed to believe it in
00:44:06the same way.
00:44:07No people, no two groups of people do.
00:44:09They're all different.
00:44:10So, what is happening to the children's head, the parents are not even seeing because their head, their mind is
00:44:16in a completely different place.
00:44:18Yeah, that's a good point.
00:44:19I do think about that.
00:44:21I would say that's how being a kid and raising it, that's so interesting you say that with the mindset.
00:44:29Because my parents, they became Christians in their adult life.
00:44:33So, they were not raised that way, very secular or whatever.
00:44:41Us, and so, for them, they had a different mindset.
00:44:43Oh, thank God, God saved us.
00:44:46Like, you know, we're going to make sure our children know the Lord.
00:44:49And so, there's earnestness and sincerity in that.
00:44:53But I'm just thinking, we, this is different, like, you didn't grow up with this fear of, if I turn
00:45:04on the radio and a certain song might come on that will influence me, the demon's going to jump on
00:45:10me.
00:45:11And like I said, for many years, I really believed that, you know, maybe some of these outlandish prophetic words
00:45:17that were spoken over my family, you know, or my parents or whatever, weren't coming to pass because I have
00:45:25unbelief or I have some open door that I'm letting the enemy come in to attack my family to hinder
00:45:33the blessings of the Lord.
00:45:34And so, maybe God will bless my family, my parents, once I move out.
00:45:39I mean, no one said those words, that's the thing, it's like no one's saying those exact words, but when
00:45:44you're immersed in it for long enough and you see, you go hop from revival ministry to revival and all
00:45:53these, like, crazy people that come in and you just take them at their word.
00:45:57Like, you know, I was, I mean, there's a man that my father was friends with named, his name is
00:46:04Isaiah Reed.
00:46:05I've tried to look him up to see if he's still around, but he claims, he walks around claiming that
00:46:10he was, he has an, and maybe he does have an autopsy scar.
00:46:14I don't know.
00:46:14He claims that he was revived while they were doing an autopsy on him or whatever.
00:46:20And that's his shtick.
00:46:22And so, it's like, well, I don't, I have tried to actually, honestly, like, are there, are there doctor's records?
00:46:28Are there, you know, legal records saying, like, confirmed his story?
00:46:34And I, I haven't been able to find it, but it's, these, the system primes you, especially if you're raised
00:46:42in it, you're, you either think you're crazy and you're a sinner and God must really hate you.
00:46:47So, you walk around with this, like, shame, which I would say I have a lot of that, that I'm
00:46:51like, well, this prophecy isn't coming to pass.
00:46:53And, like, why isn't it being fulfilled?
00:46:55Or I must have opened the door to the devil.
00:46:57Or you just, you're primed to take people's word at it.
00:47:01The more charismatic and the more outlandish the story and the more intensely they tell it with, you know, scripture
00:47:08sprinkled in, you just, you believe it.
00:47:11And if you don't believe it, you have a religious spirit.
00:47:15And that's impossible.
00:47:16You can't argue against that.
00:47:18Like, it, you know, if you, like, you just can't.
00:47:22And so, I think it does, I feel deeply for children because it does keep them trapped.
00:47:28And I'll say, you know, one more thing.
00:47:30I remember when we first moved out here to California, we really tried to, we're like, okay, we're going to
00:47:37try to find a church.
00:47:38And there's a lot more, like, non-denom megachurches out here because we came from, like, a Presbyterian, whatever, boring,
00:47:46as people would say, boring church.
00:47:48But it was great, a wonderful church, very intellectual or whatever.
00:47:51Anyway, when we came out here, we tried a non-denominational church that did not say they're charismatic or anything
00:47:58like that.
00:47:59And, you know, they had a big youth group.
00:48:01So, we're like, all right, we'll go.
00:48:03And we did not last long because, well, one, the pastor had a guest speaker.
00:48:11And she was from a pastor from Jesus Culture, which the connection, they're Bethel, whatever.
00:48:16I, like, lost it.
00:48:17I was like, what?
00:48:18You know.
00:48:20But my son came home because we sent him to the youth group.
00:48:24And I picked him up and I'm driving home.
00:48:27And he goes, Mom, what's the rapture?
00:48:30And I'm almost like, what?
00:48:32You know, like, what do you mean?
00:48:33How do you know?
00:48:34Who's talking to you about the rapture?
00:48:35You know, what is it?
00:48:36And he was like, oh, I don't, you know, I was like, are they teaching you that?
00:48:39I mean, I was just livid.
00:48:41And he was like, no, no, no, no.
00:48:43He said, there's a guy, a boy in my prayer group.
00:48:47And this is, you know, my son's 12.
00:48:49And he asked for prayer because he's so worried he's having trouble sleeping because his dad isn't a Christian.
00:48:56And he's terrified that his dad is going to miss the rapture.
00:49:00And I'm like, my heart broke for that boy.
00:49:02I'm just, what, you have to live with that, that you're somehow responsive.
00:49:08Like, your dad's not a Christian, so, you know, he's going to suffer in hell and he's not going to
00:49:14get raptured with you.
00:49:15And I'm like, that is, it really, we left after that.
00:49:19I just can't.
00:49:22The theology that you are teaching and the critical thinking skills needed, they're so important.
00:49:29And when it is cloaked with this intense emotion and charismania and, you know, charismatic people telling you this, and
00:49:39it's fun, and here's this emotional music and whatever, and it's not challenged.
00:49:43It's, you are setting up your child, like, a child for a very, like, paranoid, tormented life.
00:49:52I mean, no 12-year-old should carry that, the weight of that fear of, you know, my father, my
00:50:02parent that is a caregiver is going to somehow suffer an eternal damnation because they aren't Christians.
00:50:09And that's this weightiness that he is carrying.
00:50:13And I'm like, and that made me angry because that brought me back to being a child and just, it's
00:50:23not just the deliverance, the spiritual warfare, the healing, the scary, like, crazy stuff.
00:50:28It's also that heavy pressure of, you have to save the people around you.
00:50:35God has given you a gift.
00:50:36Therefore, if you are discerning something on them, you need to go lay hands on them and pray for them.
00:50:41You need to tell them about Jesus because you're not going to feel very good when you're going to heaven
00:50:46and you see these people burning in hell.
00:50:48And you could have told them.
00:50:50So, it's just, I, it is not healthy for children.
00:50:53The more I'm, like, talking to you about it and see, it's not healthy for anyone to be raised in
00:50:58that.
00:50:58It's an environment of fear, shame, and paranoia and does lay the groundwork for an emotionally unhealthy adult.
00:51:06You're talking about rapture and it brings up all of these memories, most of which are triggering in my head.
00:51:12But, one of the memories it brought up is I had a family member, I may have mentioned this on
00:51:17the podcast, but I have a family member who believed in the rapture like we all did.
00:51:22We were taught the doomsday rapture was coming and we were going to be part of this special little group
00:51:27that's going to be caught away.
00:51:29And this person would cry uncontrollably, uncontrollably before getting on the bus to go to school because they would be
00:51:38separated from their parents.
00:51:39And what if the rapture comes whenever their parents are away from them?
00:51:43How will they find their parents in heaven?
00:51:45All of those thoughts that a normal child is going to have, the adults aren't even thinking through.
00:51:50And when they're preaching about it, they're preaching, yes, this is a good thing.
00:51:53And they're talking about this really, really scary thing that is about to happen, if you believe that mindset.
00:51:59The children are thinking of the scary thing and the adults are thinking of the happy thing.
00:52:02So, again, two different worlds, two different views of what is being said.
00:52:06The rapture theology itself, most people are unaware that that theology is only like 200 years old.
00:52:13It's not that new.
00:52:14And that's part of the reason why it was eventually replaced in the same movement that this developed from.
00:52:20But we believed it.
00:52:21And I believed that we were going to be part of the chosen few that's taken away.
00:52:26As a child, I can't say that I was crippled by that fear, but I did have it.
00:52:31And now, as an adult, having gone through therapy and understanding things like complex trauma, look at the complex trauma
00:52:39that has caused widespread in the movements.
00:52:41Because children are dealing with their normal struggles and their normal fears, complicated by these things that they're told is
00:52:48in the spiritual realm that they can't put any sense at all to.
00:52:51So, they just kind of disconnected in their mind and build trauma on top of trauma on top of trauma.
00:52:57And you end up with complex trauma, and it takes years to overcome that.
00:53:00Yeah, and you have to even – and it's hard, too, to even identify it.
00:53:05I would say, like, in my 20s, and again, if I'm repeating myself, but where I'm crying all the time.
00:53:12And, you know, I told that story about – it was actually a pastor at a church that was like,
00:53:19you need to go to therapy.
00:53:21But just crying all – because I'm like, I'm – I was raised a Christian.
00:53:25I was raised a super Christian.
00:53:26I have the Holy Spirit.
00:53:28I know spiritual warfare.
00:53:29I know deliverance.
00:53:30I know all these things.
00:53:31I went to IHOP.
00:53:32I've done all this.
00:53:34Why am I distressed?
00:53:36You know, it's like, why am I tormented?
00:53:38Why am I suffering with anxiety?
00:53:40Why am I suffering with, like, paranoid thoughts?
00:53:43And, you know, up one day, down the next.
00:53:47What am I doing wrong?
00:53:49It's always like, what door have I opened?
00:53:50What am I doing wrong?
00:53:52And I was exhausted, because I was thinking, there's – I can't do any more.
00:53:57Like, I don't – I read the Bible.
00:54:00I pray.
00:54:01I put on my armor.
00:54:02I listen to worship music.
00:54:04I go to church.
00:54:06I am surrounded by people.
00:54:08Whatever.
00:54:08I break these curses and whatnot.
00:54:10And I am still struggling mentally.
00:54:15And I am so grateful for the people in my life that love me enough to stick with me and
00:54:24not perpetuate these, you know, paranoid thoughts.
00:54:28But it's taken years, years to undo what was, you know, implanted as a child, really, in those patterns.
00:54:38And I've seen it, you know, with other people.
00:54:41And that's, you know, why I do appreciate people telling their stories and sharing.
00:54:45And I do feel defensive when they get criticism of, you know, like, quote, deconstructing or, you know, reconstruct, whatever
00:54:53the term.
00:54:53But it's like, this is – everyone needs to do that.
00:54:57Everyone needs to dismantle their beliefs and instead of questioning.
00:55:02And then you can build a firm foundation as far as, like, okay, now this is why I think this.
00:55:08This is why I believe that and allowing people to do that.
00:55:12But this movement doesn't allow for that because when you start asking questions, it honestly pulls the thread, too many
00:55:22threads, for the people who are in power, for the leaders, where they don't have answers.
00:55:28They don't for that.
00:55:30And so, it threatens their ministry that they've grown, their position of power.
00:55:35And if they have to be held accountable for that, like, it's not going to be there.
00:55:39And I think, you know, some of us, too, in that system, you have to be okay with saying it's
00:55:45the system itself.
00:55:46And this was the one thing when we were attending this church, and I will say you're – I just
00:55:55highly encourage people to go into the archives of your podcast as well because that's something, you know, and the
00:56:01research you've compiled in your book.
00:56:04And you didn't ask me to plug it.
00:56:06But that was something that has helped me as someone who loves history and loves, you know, where did this
00:56:11belief come from?
00:56:12Where did it originate?
00:56:14And really, like you were saying, it's – the rapture is a new-ish belief.
00:56:19You know, what do other – what are other theological views of these topics?
00:56:24And, you know, really looking at that and sort of starting to ask questions to the point where the church
00:56:30that we were attending briefly when we first moved out here, I had already been into your podcast and knew
00:56:37– and also knew a lot of the players and knew what was going on.
00:56:40So, I am always suspicious when we're out here because we're in Northern California, so I'm just, like, looking for
00:56:45a Bethel influence.
00:56:48And when they had the guest speaker, he opened his pulpit to the Jesus Culture pastor, and I was just,
00:56:56like, if I wanted to go to Jesus Culture Sacramento, I would go to Jesus Culture Sacramento.
00:57:00I don't want to go there, you know, and I did.
00:57:03I was, like, why is – why are you having him?
00:57:05And he got very defensive.
00:57:07And I did, like, oh, well, I'm really good friends with Banning-Liebshire.
00:57:10And so, then I did ask, I said, well, do you support what he's doing with the Anaheim Vineyard Church
00:57:16and that whole mess?
00:57:17And people can look that up if they want.
00:57:19There's a mess there.
00:57:20But, again, that's another example of that Bethel honor culture trickling into, you know, other churches in this area where
00:57:32if someone – if there's a leader that's being abusive and people call them out, they had the same line
00:57:38of, we're not speaking to that.
00:57:40And so, you know, I was asking him all about it, and he was like, oh, well, I'm really good
00:57:44friends with Banning.
00:57:45And let me just tell you, Banning says that Jesus Culture is not Bethel.
00:57:49You know, they're different.
00:57:50And I'm like, that is BS.
00:57:51I was like, it is the same.
00:57:53I was like, you know, I was like, Banning started – God has started at Bethel, was there for 20
00:57:57years.
00:57:57Jesus Culture came out of that, and they're planning a church, and now you are platforming her at our church.
00:58:02And he didn't have a good answer for me.
00:58:04It was just bluster, and I think this man of this – this pastor is very well beloved, and I
00:58:10think he's a genuine Christian, whatever, but he has his own agenda.
00:58:14He wants more of the charismatic movement at his church, and I was like, I can't, like, I'm out.
00:58:20You weren't able to – and he won't take that further step to ask the question.
00:58:23And so – and the final nail in the coffin was when the stuff with Sean Bowles was coming out,
00:58:29he, you know, wrote this blog post about how it's a net win for the kingdom.
00:58:36And it's like, this is great for the charismatic movement because Bethel's taking accountability, and God's cleaning things up, but,
00:58:43you know, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
00:58:45And I was like, goodbye, you know, like, people – and my point in telling this is that I get
00:58:53it.
00:58:53It's scary to pull the thread and start asking questions as dismantling your belief and maybe stuff that your life
00:58:58has been built on.
00:58:59However, like, you can't keep perpetuating the system.
00:59:03Like, it's like, well, that was a bad actor.
00:59:05Let's keep this system going.
00:59:06There's something about it that we keep having these bad actors that keep popping up and showing up.
00:59:11So maybe we need to dig deeper into what we're believing in the system itself, and then what – if
00:59:16we have children, or what are we exposing our kids to generationally that will perpetuate this type of abuse?
00:59:25Absolutely.
00:59:26Thank you so much for doing this.
00:59:27Yeah, thank you.
00:59:28If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.
00:59:31You can find us at william-branham.org.
00:59:34For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion, From Christian Identity to
00:59:40the NAR.
00:59:40Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
01:00:20In other words, we'll find out.
01:00:20Bye, Steph!
01:00:21Bye, Steph!
01:00:21Bye, Steph!