What Happens to Your Faith After You Leave a Cult? | Pia Hugo | 714 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John and Pia discuss the difficult period between leaving a controlling religious environment and finding emotional, spiritual, and personal stability. Pia shares her seven years of wandering, including the loss of community, unresolved trauma, therapy, rebuilding her identity through teaching and critical thinking, and the unexpected experience that renewed her relationship with Jesus.  They also explore why people leaving spiritually unhealthy churches may need time and freedom rather than pressure to adopt another set of beliefs. The conversation considers religious urgency, fear-based leadership, emotional manipulation, personal boundaries, balanced research, and a simpler approach to faith centered on patience, compassion, and allowing each person to take their own journey.  CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction 02:07 Pia’s Seven Years of Wandering 09:15 Therapy, Denial, and Facing the Pain 15:17 Anger at God and Rebuilding After NAR 20:22 History, Critical Thinking, and Finding Her Voice 24:10 The Retreat That Changed Everything 30:14 A Simpler Faith and Life After Wandering 37:20 Letting Former Members Take Their Own Journey 41:07 Faith Without Pressure or Forced Conversion 49:43 Sharing Her Story With Women in Prison ______________________ Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Pia Hugo, former member

00:46of the New Apostolic Reformation.

00:48Pia, it's good to be back and to talk about an unusual subject.

00:52This is something, you don't know this, but I've actually wanted to have this exact conversation

00:57that you pitched to me several times, but I didn't really know how to do it or who to

01:02do it with, and I got to thinking about it after you sent it.

01:05It is the perfect time.

01:07I have had many people tell me, John, you need to open up, you need to tell them exactly what

01:13you believe right now.

01:14And there's a reason why I don't, and that's because of what we're going to talk about in

01:18this podcast.

01:19There is a point of time between the time you leave a cult and the time that you gain

01:25your footing and you find your new life, there's a time in between where you are wandering on

01:30a journey, and it is the most difficult time you have ever been on.

01:34I went through this, I've talked to many people, I've helped people through this journey, and

01:40I try very hard not to sway them in their journey.

01:43I don't want to tell them their journey for them, I want them to take their journey.

01:46So, in my podcast, you'll find that I am somewhat indifferent and distant because I don't want

01:52them to know where I ended up.

01:54Instead, I want them to take the journey.

01:56But I did want to eventually talk about the journey, and who better to talk it over with

02:03than you?

02:03Well, I am honored, John.

02:06Thank you for having me again.

02:09And yeah, I just thought, you know what?

02:13I want to talk about my seven years of wandering.

02:18That was the idea I pitched to you, and I myself have actually never really talked about

02:26it much in public.

02:28I'm not proud of those years, John.

02:33You know, I was born Catholic, and at 19, I became, you know, Protestant.

02:42And as most of your listeners know by now, I quickly got immersed in PDI in the 1980s and

02:50NAR in the 1990s.

02:53So, I want to start where we left off the last time.

02:57So, I got kicked out of this NAR church called Harvest Rock Church in Pasadena, California,

03:07led by my former brother-in-law, Cheon.

03:10The year was 1996.

03:13So, my seven years of wandering started from 1997 to 2004.

03:22I hadn't realized it was actually about seven years till, you know, years later, I was kind

03:30of writing in my journals about it.

03:33And I just thought, I should write a book about that, My Seven Years of Wandering.

03:40So, who knows?

03:42This might be the beginning of a new book for me.

03:46But let me start there.

03:48So, in 1996, I was kicked out.

03:53I was cut off from all my friends, my church friends.

03:58And I was a new divorcee and single mom with three kids.

04:07Maybe at some point, John, I can go deeper into some of the traumas that I experienced

04:15as a child.

04:17Let me just say that it was sexual abuse.

04:21So, sexual abuse slash molestation.

04:24There were two perpetrators.

04:28None of them were my direct family members.

04:32But suffice it to say that by the time, it started when I was five.

04:38By the time I was like 16 years old, I had a lot of brokenness inside.

04:44But I was very good at hiding it.

04:46You know, like I said, I was a good Catholic girl.

04:50Went to mass every Sunday.

04:53Went to Catholic school for my elementary years.

04:59And, you know, I just learned to put that facade like we all do.

05:05And pretend that, you know what, it's just my body.

05:08Whatever.

05:09You know, I'll get over it.

05:11Well, when I was 17 years old, something very, very tragic happened in my family.

05:19We lost our oldest brother to suicide.

05:23So, when my oldest brother took his own life, my whole world started spinning.

05:29And I just all of a sudden had these suicidal ideations.

05:34I didn't know, I didn't really connect the abuses of my childhood to the pain I was feeling when my

05:44brother died.

05:45But it was just lots of loss, lots of grieving that came up.

05:52And because I had not been to a counselor, you know, this was back in the day.

05:57Nobody went to counselors back then.

05:59And so, I did finally admit to my mom, hey, you know what, this happened to me.

06:06And she's like, why didn't you tell me, you know, blah, blah, blah.

06:11And I'm like, yeah, that's why I just want to die, blah, blah, blah.

06:14It was very dramatic for me.

06:17So, their solution was, let's go to the United States.

06:22When you go to the U.S. and you'll have a change of scene, everything's going to be better.

06:27You can start anew, start afresh.

06:30That was my mom.

06:31You know, we used to call her Pollyanna.

06:33Remember Pollyanna?

06:35So, that was my mom's nickname.

06:37Everything is just going to be brighter.

06:39Or, you know, that little girl from that Broadway play, Little Annie.

06:46Annie, Little Orphan Annie, like the sun will come up tomorrow, you know, bet your bottom dollar.

06:53Tomorrow, there'll be sun.

06:55So, and it's funny, I'm saying this, John, because I just told you earlier that it had rained all day.

07:01I mean, sorry, all night last night.

07:03And I'm looking outside and it's beautiful.

07:06It's blue skies.

07:07The sun's out.

07:09So, you know, sometimes it happens that way, John.

07:13Sometimes it doesn't.

07:15Sometimes the sun does not come out and you're left in deep depression.

07:23You are left in the darkness.

07:27So, when I came here to the U.S., again, 18, 19 years old, I met this guy, swooped me

07:35off my feet, got married.

07:38I honestly thought, and remember, I met Jay on and Sue on, my brother-in-law and sister-in-law

07:48at that time.

07:48And they introduced me to Jesus.

07:50They introduced me to this amazing movement.

07:53So, I honestly felt like all my troubles have been swept away, covered by the blood.

08:00I've been saved.

08:02I've been healed.

08:03I've been delivered.

08:04Here we go.

08:05So, for a while, that facade of I have overcome all my trials, the past is now the past.

08:17The new has come.

08:18So, I fully embraced that truth.

08:24And I think that's why I just fell head, you know, headlong into all the PDI theology and then later

08:36the NAR theology and all the charismatic stuff.

08:42It became my drug of choice.

08:44That's how I look at it.

08:46It was a heady drug.

08:50And I honestly thought that all my troubles were over until I realized that I had married a narcissistic abuser.

08:59And our marriage, no matter what I did, no matter how much I submitted, prayed, fasted, did everything my husband

09:09told me to do, it just got worse and worse until he became physically abusive.

09:15Then, okay, so now fast forward.

09:18I'm now 30 years old.

09:20I am now newly divorced.

09:21And I fell into the deepest hole I've ever found myself in.

09:31I felt like I lost everything, John.

09:36And I started getting suicidal ideations again.

09:42Now, thankfully, by this time, I was seeing a therapist.

09:46So, my therapist walked me through.

09:49Now, I know you've gone through therapy, John.

09:53So, yeah, I'm curious to see if you can relate to this.

09:57But in the very, very beginning, my response when the therapist said, you know, well, how are you?

10:05You know, how are things?

10:06Like, oh, it's all great.

10:08I don't even know why I'm here.

10:10You know, like, can't you see?

10:11You see the smile?

10:13Like, I'm all good.

10:14I'll probably just need one or two of these, and then I'll be fine.

10:19And then she dug into my history about, you know, the child sexual abuse and then my brother dying, you

10:26know, suicide.

10:27And then the 10-year domestic abuse that I had barely crawled out of and the cultic environment that I

10:34was in and I got kicked out of.

10:36And she looked at me and she's like, whoa, like, you know, she didn't tell me, but in her head,

10:44like, this woman is full of denial.

10:47Like, I had this big wall, but she was good.

10:52She was good.

10:53She chipped away, chipped away, chipped away.

10:55And then all this ugly emotions came out, just this rage, this, like, the anger.

11:03I remember the anger.

11:04And I was angry at her.

11:06I was angry at the therapist.

11:08Like, I was doing just fine before you pulled it all out of me.

11:14And now I have to deal with this depression.

11:17I have to deal with my anger towards all these people who had harmed me.

11:24I'm trying to work on forgiveness, but how can I forgive when what they did to me was horrible?

11:31Like, I felt like my life had been ruined.

11:34So I'm going to open up a little bit more than I usually do because I feel like it is

11:39really important to demystify therapy.

11:41The movement, by and large, has trained people to believe that if you go to a therapist, it's the same

11:46thing as going to a witch doctor and you're going to catch a demon and all of this stuff.

11:50And when you actually go, it's kind of like you described, but after a while, it really sinks in.

11:57The therapist is there only to help you talk and make your brain recognize what has happened to you.

12:05All they're doing is they're giving you things to jog your memory so that you can put words to your

12:12feelings.

12:12And once you put those words to your feelings, share your emotions, you break down, you usually start crying.

12:17That's usually how it works.

12:19And I actually have a pretty close relationship with a therapist.

12:23And he told me that, yeah, usually once it hits that point when they just break down and they can't

12:27stop crying, that's the part where they start to heal and they move on.

12:31And my cousin, Jesse, who was in the Branham movement, he escaped.

12:36He is a psychotherapist in Florida.

12:38He's been on the podcast a few times.

12:40He says once you get to that point, it should only take a few sessions before you get somebody to

12:46that point.

12:47And if you can do it quickly, then they heal, they move on, and life becomes much better quickly.

12:52So, demystify the therapy first off.

12:56But second off, I'll say it like this.

13:00With the exception of the sexual abuse, I can relate to every single thing that you are talking about.

13:07You had this feeling when you're in the movement.

13:10There's a reason why they call it shiny happy people.

13:12You have this feeling like you have to have a facade.

13:15And you keep the facade.

13:17That facade is on you even when you leave the group, when you've been kicked out.

13:22I remember when my whole world crashed to a screeching halt.

13:28All my friends had left me.

13:31Most of my family had left me, cut me off.

13:34All my relationships were broken.

13:36I still had that facade.

13:37And even the first time I went into therapy, I've got this big smile.

13:41And they're like, you went through all of that and you're smiling.

13:45And had it not been for a cousin who talked me through it every single week, he would call me

13:52every single week, talked me through it, I would not be alive today.

13:57That's how bad it got.

13:59Things were really bad.

14:00I'm going to be honest with you.

14:02And you go through this.

14:04The best way to explain it to somebody who's never been through anything like this, there's this technique in the

14:11movies whenever they want to show an emphasis on change.

14:15And what they'll do is they'll zoom in on the person instantly and the background kind of moves backwards.

14:20That's how it feels.

14:21It feels like suddenly you came aware that things that you should have understood, you did not.

14:28The facade that you're putting up is not real.

14:31Every single aspect about your life is not real.

14:35And your world comes crashing down.

14:37That's really how it happens.

14:39And I'll say this.

14:40It puts you into a mental state where first you've left the group or been kicked out or cut off

14:47or whatever happened.

14:48Then this thing happens and it's even worse than you're being cut off.

14:53You suddenly realize that, oh, my gosh, not only did I leave my family, my friends, my church, all of

14:59these things, now my world is falling apart.

15:02Is the devil punishing me?

15:04That's the first thing that hits you.

15:05And then that's really, for most people that I've talked to, that is actually the start of their journey.

15:12Leaving the church was not.

15:13But when the world comes crashing down, that's when they begin their journey.

15:17Yeah, you said, is the devil punishing me?

15:20Well, I did not necessarily think that way.

15:24I thought it was God, which is worse, right?

15:28I thought that the God that I had served since I was a child as a good Catholic girl and

15:36then as a good Protestant girl, you know, again, from like zero to 30 years old, I was very religious,

15:46very devout, very like, you know, conscientious, never drank, never smoked, never did drugs.

15:54You know, I mean, I'm not saying I was a saint, I wasn't, but I mean, I married the first

16:01guy that I had sex with, you know, like I was, I really took it seriously that I needed to

16:09be this pure and holy vessel.

16:11And then, like you said.

16:15And to qualify that, we had, they would always go to this passage where God allowed the devil to punish

16:21you.

16:21So, that's what's going through the back of my mind.

16:24It's still God, like you said, but God allowed Satan to do this to me.

16:28Yes, yeah.

16:29I guess it's safer to say, well, the devil's doing this.

16:32But my anger was really directed towards God because, yeah, God allowed it.

16:38All this trauma, like, why did he allow me to be sexually abused as a child?

16:43Why did he allow me to, why did he take my brother, you know?

16:49Why did he allow me to marry this scumbag, you know?

16:54Why did, why did he allow me to get sucked into this cult?

16:59So, but, okay, that part, that actually comes a little later.

17:04I didn't look at it as a cult yet, as a systemic cult.

17:09I looked at it as a very dysfunctional church.

17:12I honestly isolated it at that time to Harvest Rock Church and to Chayon.

17:19I just thought, these are not good leaders.

17:22They didn't take good care of me.

17:25So, I went through, you know, all this anger, this grief, this depression,

17:33and it pretty much lasted for seven years.

17:37For seven years, I did not open my Bible except on Sundays.

17:42No, I still did go to church.

17:44I actually found a more word-based, evangelical, non-denominational church.

17:52I guess you could describe it as your typical regular church, Protestant church.

17:58And the pastors were very strong in the word, and they were, they emphasized character a lot.

18:08My pastor there was a man of solid character.

18:14You know, I'm still friends with him to this day.

18:17So, there were a lot of good things that came out.

18:22But the hard thing for me was dealing with all these deep-seated emotions of anger and depression, despair,

18:38and lack of purpose, I guess, also came in there, right?

18:42Because if I'm not a good Christian girl, then who am I?

18:46That was my identity for so long.

18:50And then somebody decided I should go into teaching high schoolers because I now needed a job.

18:59Remember, I was told your role as a woman is as a wife and as a mother and a homemaker.

19:11You should probably be homeschooling your kids.

19:15And the idea of homeschooling my kids terrified me, John, because, like, I don't know how to teach these kids.

19:24But the irony of it is, turns out, I'm actually a good teacher.

19:29But not at that age, you know?

19:32Not at that preschool, elementary age.

19:38I was a youth pastor.

19:41I actually became a youth pastor for a little while while at Harvest Rock Church.

19:46And I got along great with the teenagers.

19:53And so, when I got divorced, I decided I'm going to be a history teacher.

20:01So, I had my degree in economics, so I could teach economics.

20:05I had my secondary degree in psychology, so I could teach psychology if I wanted to.

20:12But what I really wanted to teach was history.

20:15And I did not have any history classes in college.

20:19So, for those seven years, John, I read almost every history book I could get my hands on.

20:27U.S. history, world history.

20:29I just fell in love with history.

20:32And I realized I was a good history teacher.

20:35And you know what history teachers teach?

20:40They teach critical thinking.

20:43So, all of a sudden, something inside of me is waking up.

20:49This part here, this frontal lobe that had been shut down for so long, all of a sudden, it's starting

20:57to run again.

20:58Like, the whirring of the engine inside my brain, you know, is starting to, you know, it got a little

21:05rusty.

21:06You know, I mean, I did well in college.

21:09You know, I graduated magna cum laude, but it kind of went dead.

21:14It kind of went dead for 10 years while I was with PDI and NAR.

21:18So, now in my early 30s, I am having debates with my students.

21:26I am having intellectual discussions about philosophy and about history and politics and economics, you know, with my peers, you

21:37know, in the history department.

21:39And I discovered a part of me that I didn't even know was in me.

21:45My ex-husband, his favorite verbal abuse was, you are the stupidest woman I have ever met.

21:55Why did I ever marry you?

21:57I was convinced that I was stupid.

22:01And it didn't help that I had pastors telling me, you can't think for yourself.

22:07You want to hear from God.

22:09You got to listen to us.

22:11It's okay that you have your own quiet times, whatever.

22:13But if it's not confirmed by a pastor, prophet, or apostle, then it's not, you know, it's not final.

22:24That's not God's final word.

22:26Because all the final words have to come from the pulpit.

22:32So, I, it was, it took a while, but it was actually, now I look back and, you know, those

22:41seven years of wandering weren't my wasted years.

22:45I used to think that it was, you know, because, again, I'm not going to small group meetings.

22:53I'm not going to midweek Bible study.

22:56I'm not opening my Bible as much.

23:01And I'm just not, I'm just not serving the church.

23:08Maybe I served here and there, the kids ministry to help my, my kids were in Sunday school.

23:14But for the most part, I was living a different life now, John.

23:20And most of my friends, shock, shockers of all shockers, none of them are believers.

23:28Like, all my close friends were non-believers.

23:32They were secular and we were going to bars and drinking and we were, I know, I, I, I, I

23:41did smoke.

23:42I still did smoke because I still wanted to, you know, I'd hit the gym.

23:46That's where I went.

23:47I was still into like taking care of my body, but not for religious reasons.

23:51Right.

23:51I just wanted to get back in shape after having three children.

23:56And I was just living this worldly lifestyle and, um, and I did things that a good Christian

24:05girl shouldn't be doing.

24:06Let's just put it that way.

24:09But something happened in 2004 and I had already gone through so much therapy.

24:17I feel like I had healed considerably from all my traumas in the past.

24:25And my Christian therapist said, you know, you should go to this retreat.

24:30It's not necessarily Christian, but, you know, it's a spiritual retreat.

24:35They'll teach you stuff there like meditation and, you know, um, just different techniques

24:43that are, no one would call them Christian.

24:48I guess you, you would even call it new agey, I guess, but it's just a way for your soul

24:55to

24:57get in touch with a spiritual world, but not in a Christian way.

25:03Like I had never been to a retreat like that in the past.

25:08I would never go to a retreat like that because, oh no, no, no, no, no.

25:11That's new agey, you know, like get you away from me, Satan.

25:16You know, that's all just demonic.

25:18But by now my mind had been opened enough.

25:21I was willing to try anything.

25:23And my therapist said, yeah, you know what?

25:25You're pretty good.

25:26I don't think you and I need to keep seeing each other.

25:29So go to this retreat and we'll call it good.

25:34And I did.

25:36Well, something very unexpected happened at this non-Christian retreat.

25:40I encountered Jesus.

25:43I really encountered Jesus.

25:45It was the last day of the retreat.

25:48I decided to take a walk in the forest.

25:51It was beautiful.

25:52It was up in the mountains and there was lots of trees.

25:55And it was like, I don't know, 5 a.m. in the morning.

25:58I felt so peaceful.

26:01I felt like I had finally come to a place of contentment in my life.

26:08I was now, you know, I was now a history teacher.

26:13I had been going to my school for my master's degree.

26:23I was going to be an administrator.

26:26And everything just looked like it was all falling into place.

26:32And then I felt like God was speaking to me for the first time in seven years.

26:40And he was telling me, basically, like, I miss you.

26:48I miss you.

26:49Because I hadn't been doing my quiet times.

26:53It wasn't condemning.

26:56It wasn't accusatory or judgy.

27:01It was just a very tender moment where he said, I miss the times when you and I would just

27:11talk.

27:13And then I realized, John, I wasn't angry at God anymore.

27:18And the amazing thing is God was never angry that I was angry at him.

27:24I was running away from him because I thought, well, that's it.

27:30I got kicked out of his house.

27:34I truly felt like I was a prodigal daughter.

27:39I ran far, far away from home.

27:41I was surrounding myself with people who did not love him, did not know him.

27:49And I had just cut off that part of my life.

27:53You know, that at one point was so central.

27:59And this time, I don't know, I can't describe it.

28:03But I just felt like it was such a gentle, you know, wooing back.

28:12The Bible says that he leads us back to repentance, right?

28:18He leads us to repentance with his kindness.

28:21That's the verse.

28:23That came to me.

28:25Like, he was so kind and he was so gentle.

28:28And I got down on my knees right there in the forest floor.

28:31And I said, Lord, I am sorry.

28:34I'm sorry I've been away from you.

28:36I'm sorry I haven't been reading your word.

28:40I'm sorry I was so angry.

28:42Like, I just, I'm sorry I did this and I did that.

28:44It was just like I was having this confessional right there in the forest.

28:52And I just felt that presence, which I would feel.

28:57See, that's a confusing thing.

28:58I would feel his presence sometimes when I would be in those big rallies and this, you know, the dim

29:04lights and the beautiful music.

29:06Like, it was hard for me to distinguish what was really of God and what wasn't.

29:13But I knew enough that what happened on that forest floor was God.

29:21That was divine.

29:22Because there was no music, John.

29:26At least not here on earth.

29:27Maybe there were violence up in heaven.

29:29But there's no music going on.

29:32There's no stage lights.

29:33It was just me and God.

29:36And we were having this beautiful reunion.

29:41I felt like that prodigal daughter being embraced back.

29:46And, John, I did not waste time, you know, from that point on, from 2004 all the way to date,

29:552026, I really feel like I have a much more meaningful, much more authentic walk with the Lord.

30:07It's a lot more simple.

30:09You know, I don't need the goosebumps.

30:10I don't need the hyper-emotionalism.

30:14I just need Jesus.

30:17So my life changed in a really good way.

30:20I met my husband now in 2005.

30:25He was, we actually met at the gym before that, you know.

30:30But, you know what, he was just a guy from the gym.

30:32You know, like, I invited him to my 40th birthday party.

30:38I remember that on a whim, you know, because he's not a close friend.

30:42And he's just a friend from the gym.

30:45And he accepted right away.

30:47And my girlfriends, you know, they met him.

30:51And they're like, who is that guy?

30:53Oh, he's just a guy from the gym.

30:56And one of my friends, one of my close friends said, no, I think he likes you.

31:01Like, oh, no, no, no, no.

31:03If he likes me, he would have asked me out a long time ago.

31:07And anyway, he didn't, later on I found out, well, he didn't ask me out because I told him I

31:15was done with men.

31:16And I told him I'm done with dating.

31:19So he's thinking, okay, well, I guess I'm not going to ask her out.

31:23I guess we're just going to be friends.

31:25So anyway, the funny thing is after my 40th birthday party, he did ask me out.

31:32And we did go out.

31:33And the rest is history.

31:35You know, we're celebrating.

31:36We got married in July 7, 2007.

31:43How's that for prophetic symbolism?

31:47And now I tell my friends, no, I just chose that because it makes it easy for my husband to

31:54remember our anniversary date.

31:58So next year, July 7, 2027, we will be celebrating our 20th year.

32:04So, you know, John, I am happy to say, I'm not going to say I am happy and shiny, okay?

32:11I am not a happy, shiny person.

32:13I have my days.

32:16But I wanted to share my days of wandering.

32:21And I think I'll stop there and we can continue the rest next time.

32:25But I just wanted to really go through my seven years of wandering to encourage your audience, you know, that

32:36life doesn't have to stop when you leave the cult.

32:42Because, you know, in the next episode, I'm going to tell your audience how I actually went back to the

32:49cult.

32:51I decided to go back to NAR in 2020.

32:55So that's a different story.

32:57And, yeah, after that horrific time in that last NAR church, that was when I was done.

33:06Like, okay, what was I thinking for me to go back and drink more of that Kool-Aid, you know?

33:12But, I don't know.

33:15God had his reasons, I'm sure, for leading me back to that other NAR church.

33:23But I'll save that for another day.

33:26So, yeah, I just want to, again, say that I'm thankful to you, John, for letting me share my story

33:33of my seven years of wandering.

33:36Obviously, I'm very grateful to God that he is the kind, gentle, just amazing, merciful God that he is.

33:47That no matter how badly I screwed up during those seven years, he never, you know, he never gave up

33:58on me.

33:59And he never left me nor forsook me.

34:05And I'm not, just like you, I can't really articulate what I believe and what I don't believe doctrinally, theologically.

34:19You know, we can get into those kinds of discussions, I guess, at later podcasts.

34:24But what I do know, what I realized when I encountered Jesus again in the forest is that following him

34:36doesn't have to be complicated, you know?

34:40It's a day-by-day, step-by-step, hour-by-hour journey.

34:46And he's not in a hurry.

34:47I've heard that before, and now I get it.

34:50You know, now that I'm 60 years old, I realize, like, why was I always in a hurry?

34:56You know, like, in NAR, it's always the urgency.

34:59Like, it's this year.

35:01The revival is starting this year.

35:05So you better quit your job.

35:07You better sell that portfolio and give us all your money because what are you going to use all that

35:14money for?

35:15That's the stock market's going to crash any moment now.

35:19Like, I heard all of these things, and I think it does something inside, right?

35:26Like, it causes you to be anxious and like, oh, got to do this, got to serve here, got to

35:30serve there, and da-da-da-da.

35:32And it's all on you.

35:33Again, they put it on you.

35:35It's like, you have to do this, and, you know, and you're feeling burned out, and you want to quit.

35:42And they're like, oh, but you're going to let God down.

35:47Who's going to run the kingdom?

35:50Well, little did we know, John, that it wasn't God's kingdom that they were worried about.

35:55It was this NAR man-made kingdom with false kings and the whole false royal court, and, yeah, the whole

36:07thing just really needs to crumble down so that we can all serve the real God and seek the real

36:17kingdom.

36:17Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter

36:26reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the New Apostolic Reformation?

36:31You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.

36:38On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,

36:46John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

36:52You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.

36:59If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the

37:05top.

37:06And, as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or

37:11watching.

37:12On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

37:17I have had more than one heated discussion with people telling me how I should work with the people who

37:27have escaped,

37:27and what I should do so that they don't lose their faith in God.

37:32And the reason it gets heated is because, again, it's their journey.

37:36It's not mine.

37:37I can't tell them what doctrine to believe, what church to go to.

37:40Even I can't tell them even to believe in God.

37:42Because if you have been whipped with a whip that's named God all of your life,

37:48and suddenly you escape that whip, when somebody says the name God, you're going to think about that whip.

37:54And that's really what's happening here.

37:56They're thinking about the whip.

37:57They're not thinking about the God in the sky.

38:00What I have come to realize is this.

38:02There are three things that they really get wrong in these types of churches that we're talking about.

38:10They will tell you, number one, where you go to find God.

38:13And so the experience like yours, let's say that can't happen.

38:16It didn't happen in a church.

38:17It didn't happen with your Christian brothers and sisters.

38:20You can't have that experience.

38:22But is God limited to their building or their people?

38:26They will tell you, number two, what God looks like.

38:30And this one gets under my skin because it's not really what God looks like that they're talking about.

38:36It's what you must look like so that you resemble their God.

38:40That's what it is, really, when you get down to the – and the third one, and this is the

38:45one where it becomes a heated point, is how to maintain God.

38:49I have multiple times got into discussions with people who are saying, you can't do this, John.

38:55You can't let people make their own decisions.

38:57They must have a Christian brother or sister with them or they'll leave the faith forever.

39:01They'll be gone forever.

39:02And I say, is God that limited that he has to work through the ones that you choose and not

39:09the people that he chooses?

39:11And so in the end, for me, it's like this.

39:14They have this box.

39:15And in this box, they're telling you that God's in here.

39:18And they've poked a little hole.

39:20And you can see just a little glimpse of what they're saying is God.

39:24And you go to another church and they've got a hole on the other side.

39:27Well, those two views aren't the same.

39:29They're from a different perspective.

39:31And then there's a third and a fourth.

39:33But when you escape this thing, you open up that box and you realize that all of this apostolic network

39:39of this thing that they're calling God that's in this box, you open it up and it's empty.

39:44And what is this?

39:45And more to the point, you open it up and there's a whip in there, I guess, is how you

39:49would say it.

39:50That's what it felt like.

39:52And so I've worked with numerous people who have escaped.

39:56And the whip version of God is all they remember.

39:59They want no part of it.

40:01So if you try to approach them, you try to force it, they're going to get actually further away than

40:07if you let them make the journey.

40:09So I just back off.

40:10I let them make the journey.

40:12And people who make the journey and come out on the other side, they don't always end up in the

40:17same place, but they end up in a much healthier place than if I tried to push it.

40:22Because I may be wrong in what I even push.

40:25In my doctrinal framework of understanding, it was a mistake of doctrine for 37 years.

40:31Who am I to tell them what doctrines they must believe?

40:33I might be wrong.

40:34So I try to tell them, well, go to the source.

40:37If you want to know the doctrine, you go to the source.

40:40And nine times out of ten, you're going to find out that the doctrine that is a salvation issue for

40:46these churches isn't really in the Bible unless you piece all of these verses together and try to build something

40:53out of it.

40:53And I've come to the point in my life, I just, I don't do this.

40:58You're not going to tell me to make it say something that it doesn't say.

41:02Yeah, I just want to say one last thing.

41:06To this day, it really surprises me that where I encountered the real Jesus was in a secular new agey

41:19spiritual retreat.

41:20I mean, I was surrounded by Buddhists and Hindus and atheists and, you know, meditational experts.

41:31And I mean, there were a few Christians.

41:34I'm not saying that there weren't any Christians.

41:36One of the facilitators was a former priest, you know.

41:42And I think I met like a pastor, you know, who was also one of the participants.

41:47So it was just this hodgepodge of people.

41:51But one thing we had in common was we were sincerely seeking truth.

41:58And Jesus said, I am the truth.

42:01I am the way.

42:02I am the life.

42:03And so, you know, the interesting thing that happened was I shared my story.

42:09And some of these people actually started asking me about Jesus.

42:14Like, in a very organic, non-like, you got to accept Jesus in your heart or you got to go

42:22to hell.

42:23Like, I have since become a better missionary.

42:30I have since become a better evangelist, I feel, ever since I've learned, like you, to let people just take

42:40the journey that they're supposed to take.

42:43And I don't try to push them one way or another.

42:47I don't, you know, I'm not there in front of them saying, okay, now go this way, now go that

42:52way.

42:52And, you know, like I just support whatever God is doing.

42:58I have one son who is not a Christian anymore because he, because of his uncle, to be honest, you

43:07know, his uncle Che.

43:10And he went to Cornell University for undergrad.

43:16He took his MBA at Columbia University.

43:19He worked for McKinsey.

43:21Like, he's this brilliant financial analyst.

43:25He is like the smarty pants in the family.

43:29And he decided that he is not going to follow the Christian way.

43:39And I can't argue and debate with him, you know, I can't, I can't meet him intellectually because I think

43:50he's just so, he's just too smart for me.

43:53But we have a very close connection, John.

43:56Like, we are very close.

43:57Like, like we, we talk often.

44:01And, and once in a while, I'll tell him.

44:03I'll tell him about what we do here, you know, in our missions work here in the Philippines.

44:08And he's, he's always very interested, but I really make sure I respect his boundaries, you know.

44:16And so I think that even with our own children, we need to let them make their own conclusions, you

44:26know.

44:26Let them do their own research, talk to God themselves, like you said, go straight to the source.

44:34You know, God is so big, like, he doesn't need our help, really.

44:39I mean, praying is great, but, you know, I think that's really where a lot of the, these spiritually abusive

44:47churches have gone awry.

44:49Why is trying to help God do his job of saving the world?

44:56And what they're doing is the exact opposite.

45:00I have a friend in the UK, and he told me that their church actually let out to go listen

45:06to a Bart Ehrman debate.

45:08And if you know who Bart Ehrman is, he's this guy who, he's very, very knowledgeable about the New Testament.

45:14He wrote actually one of the textbooks that I have on my desk.

45:16It's a great book.

45:17He, and a Christian scholar, wrote the book on the New Testament.

45:21But he was, at the time, an agnostic, and he was debating Christian people.

45:27But in the course of the debate, through him, you're learning things that you didn't know about the Bible, first

45:32off.

45:33Number two, you're learning that some of the doctrines don't quite match the recorded history.

45:38And so you have to kind of, like you said, you have to kind of critically think, because he's talking

45:43history, they're talking doctrine.

45:45And when they don't match, there has to be something that is an answer to this.

45:49And what it causes people to do is to go try to find those answers.

45:54We in America aren't like this.

45:56If you're in an NAR church, they would tell you, if you go there, you're going to get an evil

45:59spirit.

46:00That's what's going to happen to you.

46:01You're not going to broaden your understanding.

46:04You might actually get lured away from the faith.

46:06And I will say this, and I think I should qualify this.

46:12There is a place for ministers.

46:13There is a place for evangelists.

46:15But if you remember what those words mean in the Bible, an evangelist is somebody who's spreading the good news.

46:21Good news, Jesus came.

46:23He died.

46:24We can now be saved.

46:26That's the good news.

46:27That's what they're spreading.

46:28They're not telling anybody in the cities, you must believe this, or we're going to keep pounding into your head

46:34until you believe it.

46:35But they basically spread the good news.

46:38And there's a passage that says, if they don't receive you, wipe the dust off your feet, go to the

46:42next place.

46:43And the ministers are – it's the same word as deacon.

46:46They are your servant.

46:47But whose servant are they?

46:49They're the people who come to them to be served.

46:52So I've listened to these ministers who are saying we need to have outreach, which is good.

46:58We need to – and they're using language that's basically forcibly convert.

47:04We need to forcibly convert all of these people in the city.

47:07That doesn't work.

47:08You cannot do this because those people aren't coming to you to be served.

47:13They're not – whenever my – when we left the cult, my grandfather came to us after I had already

47:21become part of another church.

47:22And I just told them, look, I know that you want to do this to me, but you're no longer

47:27my pastor.

47:28And he still tried and tried to forcibly convert me back into the cult.

47:33But it goes back to that biblical – that word, the pastor.

47:38It is the servant.

47:39It's the person to serve the people.

47:41So there is a place for it.

47:42I'll be open about that.

47:45But there are people who aren't wanting to be served.

47:49And to your point, some of those people, they're really good people, genuine people.

47:53They're on a journey.

47:55But maybe it's just not their time.

47:57And if you go to them when it's not their time, then you might do more harm than good.

48:03Especially if you've been trained under one of these ministries and your doctrine is abusive or abrasive, you're going to

48:10push them back further.

48:11And you may actually hinder them on their journey.

48:14So I'm very open to – if I'm working with somebody and I sense that they want a Christian church,

48:20they'll often ask me, which church do I go to?

48:22I'll never answer this question, ever.

48:24But I will tell you, here's what this group believes.

48:27Here's what this other group believes.

48:29Which one of these fits what you believe?

48:31That's how I phrase it.

48:33Or I've had people who tell me, I want nothing to do with church ever again.

48:37And I'll give them some resources.

48:39I've actually given people the Bart Ehrman resource.

48:42What I usually tell those people is, if you're doing this, do it balanced.

48:46Read something that's pro.

48:48Read something that's con.

48:49And then you can see, in between, you're going to find some truth.

48:53And what's interesting is I've actually had more people convert to Christianity after leaving a cult, having gone that path

49:01and comparing the two.

49:03Then I have people who are trying to forcibly convert them.

49:06And it's just – it's a weird thing.

49:09I'm not bragging.

49:10I've not had large numbers or anything like this.

49:12But I have learned just simply to let people make the journey.

49:16And that's why I kind of stand back.

49:18And if you want to go see a minister, if you want to be under a Christian church, feel free.

49:25That's your decision.

49:26That's your part of your journey.

49:27But for me, I just simply say, take the journey, but take it like you said, Pia.

49:33Take your time.

49:34It's not urgent.

49:35You don't have to have this fear that God's standing there with a whip and he's going to beat you.

49:40You can do it in your own time.

49:43Yeah, yeah.

49:44I wasn't going to share this, but I don't know.

49:48I think it fits into what we're talking about here.

49:51And then I'll end there.

49:54Two days ago, I went to a prison here in where I'm at.

50:01It's called Iligan City in the Philippines.

50:05And I went to Iligan City Jail and I met 25 female inmates.

50:12And, you know, you know how I share Jesus these days?

50:16I don't talk about what a great life I have.

50:22I talk about how I was abused as a child.

50:25I go into detail.

50:29I talk about how I lost my brother.

50:33I talk about the 10-year domestic violence that I endured.

50:38And I, again, I go into detail.

50:40Because these are women I know can relate.

50:44And when I ask them, do you know what I'm talking about?

50:47You know, when you have a husband who's always insulting you or, you know, pushes you to the ground and

50:54whatever.

50:54And they're like, oh, yeah.

50:56You know, and they honestly, many of them started crying.

51:00And then I just said, you know, you know how I got healed?

51:05Jesus, you know.

51:06Jesus met me.

51:08I told them about my seven years of wandering.

51:10And I said, you know what?

51:12I was angry.

51:13I did things that I wish I hadn't done.

51:16And I just ended it by saying, I don't care why you're here, right?

51:22I don't care about what crime you committed.

51:25And I feel God is not looking at you like, oh, you're such a criminal now.

51:32Like, you're, you know, you're too far gone.

51:35And I just said, that's exactly why Jesus died on the cross.

51:40You know, because he knows that we are just stinking, rotten sinners that need saving.

51:48And he's here to comfort you.

51:51He's here to pour love on you and help you heal from all your past pain.

51:57And who would like Jesus to do that for you?

52:01And I'm telling you, John, every single woman raised their hand.

52:05All 25 of them, you know, just said the prayer and received prayer.

52:11And they were crying.

52:12And they were like, I could sense, you know.

52:14And again, I hate saying this these days because like, oh, God's presence filled the room.

52:21Because again, it's such a cliche, right?

52:25Every NAR pastor says it.

52:27Like, he's like, hey, guys, do you feel God's presence?

52:31And then the drums go, the music.

52:35And then they dim the lights.

52:36And like, well, I wasn't feeling it earlier.

52:39But now that you say that, and now that all these things are happening, everybody's like, yeah, amen.

52:46Like, you get so swept up, right, in all of this.

52:50But what I love about what happened two days ago, there was no music.

52:55It was just me.

52:56And it was just me having a conversation with these women who were desperate.

53:02You said there's a timing for it.

53:04I believe it was the right timing for me to visit.

53:08And just, you know, simply share the pure gospel.

53:12That's all I said.

53:14Jesus loves you.

53:15That's it.

53:15He died for your sins.

53:17And he can wash you clean.

53:19And you can have a brand new start.

53:21I mean, that's straight from the Bible.

53:24It wasn't a complicated sermon.

53:26But somehow it worked.

53:28And, of course, giving God the glory that, you know, he met them.

53:32So I'm really happy that we talked about this, John.

53:38And there was more I was going to say, but it'll have to wait till next time.

53:44Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

53:47You can find us at william-brannum.org and piahugoministries.com.

53:52For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion,

53:56From Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

54:53You can find us at william-brannum.

What Happens to Your Faith After You Leave a Cult? | Pia Hugo | 714

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