- 2 months ago
Wichita State Athletic Director Kevin Saal Stops in to talk all the legal entanglements with the "College Act" and the effect its had on Shocker Sports so far.
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00:00Welcome back in everybody. Jacob Albrock, Brady Bowman here. It is Sports Daily on KFH. Joining
00:05us now on the hotline, 869-1240, is Wichita State Athletic Director Kevin Saul in for the
00:12bi-weekly visits again this season. Kevin, we really appreciate that. We appreciate you being
00:16here. How are you this morning? Good morning, guys. How are you? We're good. We're good. We're
00:22trying to follow along with all of this madness, as I'm sure you guys are too. Of course, the big
00:28news at Wichita State is the recent announcement of Kenyon Giles coming back. And since that
00:35announcement, we've had rulings that say no as he waits on his case. And now we've got
00:41conferences stepping in. As we just take a bird's eye and kind of take chronologically a look
00:47at this, Kevin, and we can get people caught up. What made you guys comfortable with his
00:55return and having it be as official as it's been at this point?
01:01Well, I think, number one, when he announced his return, all of those student athletes in
01:10the entire class were eligible. And you saw it going on all over the country. Jacob, you
01:14understand, I think maybe more so than anyone, that these things change hourly. They change
01:21daily. We just saw some news out of the state of Tennessee yesterday. We've seen some news
01:27out of Louisiana. You're going to see some news on Monday in the state of South Carolina
01:34that will likely reverse Kenyon's eligibility status. So at the end of the day, these things
01:41are changing. And what we have said first and foremost from the outset is that we are going
01:45to support any of our student athletes in their efforts to try and regain another year of
01:52eligibility. Because none of us know where this is going to run. It's really easy to second
01:58guess things along the way. But at the end of the day, this is an unpredictable environment.
02:02And it is our responsibility. In fact, I think we'd be silly not to support our student athletes
02:09if they're looking for an additional year of eligibility and they could potentially get
02:13it.
02:15You know, I mean, looking at this whole issue, and like you talked about, Kevin, just the
02:20stress and frustration of how things can change, you know, hour by hour, day by day, like we're
02:27expecting maybe potentially on a Monday. When you saw that a lot of the conferences, especially
02:34the Power 4 conferences come together and say, basically, hey, we're not going to, we're going
02:39to ban any pro athletes from coming back to college. Are you sensing that overall that there
02:46is like a rising urgency, like the water is starting to boil a little bit on actually trying
02:52to get some, get some rules that everybody can follow together? Does it feel like we're maybe
02:57getting a little closer to that?
03:00Yeah, I think so. And I want to be careful that we don't conflate two separate
03:04issues, because the one that you're referencing is young people that have spent time on NFL
03:09rosters, actually played in NFL preseason games, have signed free agent contracts with NFL teams
03:17and have been cut and released and are looking to come back to play college ball. That is very
03:24different than a young person that is in the class of 22 that has not professionalized themselves,
03:31if you will, that is looking to try to retain another year of eligibility based on how these
03:37court proceedings go. So two very different things. But I think in the context of what you're talking
03:42about, yeah, there seems to be some pretty good cohesion around the feeling that an individual that goes and
03:50dresses up in a professional team uniform comes back to college doesn't feel quite right. I think the common
03:58sense version of that discussion is that your eligibility is forfeited when you put on the pro
04:06jersey when you play in a pro game when you sign a pro contract. And I think that's why you're
04:11seeing
04:11a pretty united message there.
04:14You mentioned Kevin Saul, Wichita State Athletic Director joining us, and we appreciate it to try to
04:19get some sense of things. As it pertains to Kenyon Giles, you mentioned the South Carolina court case on
04:24Monday. You know, before yesterday, Kevin, and maybe a better insight on the Tennessee ruling than
04:29I do, because the NCAA legal counsel beating its chest a little bit about whatever that ruling was.
04:37But Giles's case is different, as you just mentioned. I'll tell you, in my personal opinion,
04:42the class of 22 kind of did get screwed in the ruling. It's unfortunate. We all knew it when it
04:48happened. The timer had to start somewhere. But these are, you know, a lot of these athletes,
04:51the ones that haven't gone pro, would fit under the current rules. They just happened to graduate
04:56the wrong year. So I, at one point, I thought, man, they'll all win their cases, not the professional
05:02part, but the part that fits Kenyon Giles, and they'll be fine. Does the Tennessee court ruling,
05:07what is that one? What is the one that the NCAA is boasting about here a little bit on that
05:13ruling?
05:13Is that going to impact the South Carolina case?
05:16There's basically, yeah, there's basically two states, guys, that I think you got to back up even
05:22further. There's basically two buckets of court cases. The first bucket is the Colorado, the Wisney
05:28case, which deals with the entire class of 22, right? So when we say the entire class, that is
05:35all student athletes that entered college in the fall of 22. Kenyon Giles is one of those individuals.
05:44Jaden Gustafson on our baseball team is one of those individuals. Karan Boyd is one of those
05:50individuals. That's the entire class. And so what has happened in that case is there was a preliminary
05:56injunction where the court basically said, no, NCAA, these kids are going to be eligible.
06:02And what happened then is the NCAA went in and filed a brief for a stay of that injunction,
06:08which basically means, whoa, hit the pause button. We don't believe these young people are
06:13eligible. And the court, the higher 10th circuit court agreed with the NCAA's argument and granted
06:21the stay, which means that class of 22 is no longer eligible. That's not a final decision.
06:28There will be a hearing where the case will be heard on the merits of each side and a final
06:34decision
06:35will be made likely in September or early October. So pause that, put that one to side. The second
06:42bucket are these state cases that are individual player, a list of players, a defined list of
06:50players. It's not an entire class. So it might be a list in Tennessee. I want to say it's like
06:5518 or
06:5619 players. In Ohio, it was north of 20 players. But there's these named plaintiff cases, if you will,
07:02that are in California, Ohio, Tennessee, soon to be South Carolina, you're seeing LSU,
07:08North Carolina, they're all over the place. These are a little bit different because the courts are
07:14issuing an injunction initially to say this set of student athletes are eligible. And the NCAA has
07:21come in at both Ohio and Tennessee and said, whoa, we do not believe that they're eligible. And they've
07:29submitted documentation to request a stay. They have been granted that stay. So in each one of
07:34those individual state main plaintiff cases, those cases will be heard on their merits later this fall.
07:42And so we do anticipate, in fact, we know that Kenyon is on the South Carolina case. And so it
07:48doesn't
07:48take a rocket scientist to realize that the NCAA is going to make their way around those individual
07:54state cases. But at the end of the day, as I told you guys before, what we want to do
07:59at Wichita
08:00State is be positioned to capitalize on the best case scenario, should it occur. And we are in that
08:07position. I'm pleased we're in that position. And we'll watch how these court proceedings continue on.
08:15Man, Kevin, did you ever imagine, you know, going back years ago or early in your career that we'd be
08:22at this point where you got to follow, basically got to be, maybe have a little law degree on the
08:27side, following some of this stuff and understanding all the lingo and, you know, all the different
08:32hearings and court cases. Is this what you expected when we started to head down this road when NIL
08:38all things were first starting to get rolling? Or are you even surprised? Was it more litigation than
08:43you expected?
08:44Yeah, I'm happy to entertain that question. But I think you all know the answer to that question, because this
08:49isn't what we expected two weeks ago. So at the end of the day, I think what's really important is,
08:56and I tell
08:56people this all the time, not to make light of a really difficult time for us and our journey, but
09:02it feels a
09:03little bit like COVID. As we were navigating COVID within athletics and really within our society,
09:08it was something new every day, guys. It was something new every hour. You know, you had a
09:14ruling or a recommendation over here. You had layers, just multiple entities of authority that
09:21were throwing stuff at you pretty fast. And that's what it feels like here. And so what I think is
09:26really
09:26important, as I mentioned before, you got to kind of rise above it, understand what's going on in the
09:32environment, and try to position your organization in a spot that where it's going to be able to best
09:37maximize the outcomes that could potentially take place. So that piece is important. And again, I don't
09:46want to be repetitive, but I feel like we're there. I feel like we have positioned ourselves to be able
09:51to maximize based on these rulings. And I think that's what our fans would expect, right? The alternative
09:58here is, guys, we don't do anything. And we just start making assumptions. We start making assumptions
10:03that, yeah, you know what? Those court rulings aren't going to come about. And then you miss on
10:07some players. And I think there's a misnomer within the athletics industry about all these institutions
10:13that are, quote, unquote, abusing the system. Well, I can tell you this. Wichita State is not abusing
10:18the system. We're going to administer our programs based on the rules and the purviews that oversee our
10:25programs and dictate what we do. But we would be irresponsible if we didn't position our program to
10:34take advantage of potential windfalls in the environment. And that's what we're doing. We're not
10:41manipulating the environment to try and get a kid eligible. But at the end of the day, we do have
10:46to position
10:46our program in a spot to take advantage of that.
10:49I would agree with that, Kevin, wholeheartedly. And I think there are places notably in the last couple of
10:55days where manipulation is being accused. That's not what this feels like with Kenyon Giles. He
11:00might be eligible. And I want to take this for people one other place. And I know, you know,
11:07your journey at Wichita State has dealt with this probably more than anybody else's. And that's sort
11:13of the return of things. I would tell you, and I have told Shocker fans, regardless of what happens
11:19with this ruling, take note of the fact that you guys had the resources and the ability,
11:26if everything holds up, to go get him back after an offseason largely was already completed.
11:34I read that as resources, support are growing and getting to a place where that can happen,
11:42regardless of what happens in this case. To me, Kevin, that feels like a positive for the program.
11:50Yeah, Jacob, I think you should read that into that because we've talked about it on your show,
11:57guys. When I got here in the summer of 22, our NIL number was zero. And that was a year
12:02after NIL
12:03became permissible in 21. That has since grown. We know that we sit right at second in the league
12:11in terms of our resources. And so we have grown that. And there's so many people to thank and so
12:16many people to be proud of along that journey. Most notably, our donors and our season ticket
12:21holders and our administration that works really, really hard at that. So we've positioned ourselves
12:26well. And I would hope that folks would take encouragement that we're in a position where
12:31we could absorb that late, both from a roster standpoint and from a dollar standpoint. And the
12:37other piece that I think you should take great encouragement in is that we're prioritizing our
12:42dollars on retention, which we've heard time and time again is the most important piece to our fan
12:46base. Retention. We want players that are going to stay more than one year. We've got 10 of 15 coming
12:52back in a league that's likely going to have an average of losing nine in the portal this year.
12:56From Coach Mills' first year to his second year, the average team lost eight to the portal and we lost
13:02three. I think retention, for the most part, is going to be seen at a higher clip here than it
13:09will
13:09be for our peers. Now, the trick is going to be retaining the right players and retaining good
13:14players that can win you championships. Kevin, Kenyon Giles is a good player. We'll see. We'll treat
13:20this like the old, what is it, red shirt waivers or whatever we've waited on players for the past.
13:26We'll wait and see. That court ruling is Monday. Appreciate the clarity today, Kevin. And
13:30publicly, congrats on being a grandpa. Thanks, guys. I really appreciate it. You guys. Kevin
13:37Saul, which does. Go Shockers. Go Shockers. Kevin Saul. We'll do it again in a couple weeks. We'll have
13:43some clarity at that point. We got.