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00:00Okay, 10 days or 11 days?
00:03There's a little debate there.
00:04There's some serious debate here.
00:04Your book says 11, you say 11.
00:06Tim, you're hurting my feelings.
00:07Okay.
00:07I mean, I got fired on the 11th day.
00:10It's a big day for me.
00:11Okay.
00:11Don't chip me at a 9.1% of my federal career.
00:14So it's 11?
00:15Yeah, and by the way, when Trump is trolling me on Twitter
00:17and calling me a total loser and all that type of stuff,
00:21he says 11.
00:22I think he should be the official scorer on that, don't you?
00:25If you start on the 21st
00:27and you work a full day on the 31st, count the days.
00:30Yeah.
00:31Okay.
00:31It's 11 days.
00:31You don't go 31 minus 21.
00:33I did that.
00:34I said 11.
00:35I'm just telling you.
00:36You guys work at Bloomberg.
00:36All right, tell the BBC, okay?
00:38That's all I'm going to say.
00:38No, no, the BBC's locked in at the 10-day moment.
00:42I mean, I actually went to them
00:44and tried to make a forcible appeal.
00:46And they insist that I'm only there for 10 days.
00:49And it hurts my feelings.
00:50Your book is called All the Wrong Moves,
00:52and it really gets into why we saw the rise of Donald Trump.
00:57Was being in the White House for you a wrong move?
01:00Do you consider it a wrong move as you look back?
01:02Well, I would say campaigning for Donald Trump.
01:06I was with Jeb Bush, Jeb dropping out of the race,
01:09and me accepting the offer from then-candidate Trump
01:13to go work for him was a colossal mistake,
01:15probably the biggest mistake,
01:17until I made the bigger mistake
01:19of going to work inside the White House.
01:21So I would say that they were graduating
01:23in exponentially bigger mistakes.
01:25But didn't feel like a mistake at the time.
01:27Or did it?
01:29Well, by 24 hours into it,
01:31it started to feel like a mistake.
01:32Because, you know, it was a crazy situation,
01:34and there was heavy levels of dysfunctionality.
01:37And, you know, I'm taking you back nine years now,
01:39but Priebus and Bannon and...
01:41They were not on your side.
01:43No, no, they hated my guts.
01:44Yeah.
01:45Yeah, but you know, the funny thing about Priebus,
01:47he should just tell you that he hates your guts.
01:48You know, he doesn't have to, like,
01:49act like Richie Cunningham from Happy Days.
01:51Being like, I'm out there in front,
01:53and, like, I lay it out.
01:54No, I said, I'm a front stabber.
01:55I'm not a backstabber.
01:56You know, I'll tell you to your face.
01:58Come on, I'm a New Yorker.
01:59You guys are here in New York.
02:00Listen, we all have visited the White House.
02:03We have a feel.
02:03We see it.
02:04We see the pictures.
02:05We see the president coming out and making...
02:06Take us inside the White House,
02:08your first day, your second day,
02:10and what that was like.
02:11And I understand, under President Trump
02:13and his administration, they were different.
02:15So I, you have to remember,
02:16you know, I had friends of mine
02:18that worked for President Clinton.
02:19I had a relationship with President Obama.
02:21So I had been in and out of the White House
02:23for 30 years.
02:25And, you know, in the Oval Office,
02:27the Roosevelt Room, I had been in the Navy mess.
02:29I had never been to the residence.
02:30So the first time I was in the residence
02:32was when I worked in the White House
02:33for President Trump.
02:34But it's a small place.
02:36You know that.
02:37It's not that big.
02:38The West Room building isn't that big.
02:40The West Wing offices is not big.
02:42The Oval itself is not that big.
02:44Moreover, the President's study
02:46is probably smaller than anything
02:47that was at Trump Tower for Donald Trump.
02:50So, but it is a magisterial historic place
02:54and it's very well preserved.
02:56And there's a White House historical association,
02:59which I did get familiar with
03:00in that short period of time.
03:02And the Truman renovation
03:04prior to the recent Trump renovations
03:07was unbelievably necessary.
03:09People don't remember that,
03:10the entire White House was gutted
03:12and a steel frame was put in
03:14and the place was rebuilt.
03:15And thank God for that
03:16because it was really falling apart.
03:18But, but listen, I'll tell you,
03:20I'll tell you a human story
03:21about the president though,
03:22because I know I'm at odds with him,
03:23but this is a human story.
03:24First day I was with him
03:26after I did my press conference,
03:27we were sitting in the Oval Office
03:29together alone.
03:30It was just the two of us.
03:31And I said to, I laugh,
03:32and I said to him,
03:33you know, we're two New Yorkers.
03:35You're from Queens.
03:35I'm from Nassau County.
03:36Can you believe you're behind
03:38the resolute desk?
03:39And I'm sitting here.
03:40And he said, I'm very human.
03:41He said, you know,
03:42first time I got here,
03:43I was very unnerved by it.
03:45I was sitting here saying,
03:47okay, I'm actually the president.
03:48And then the phone was ringing.
03:50He picked up the phone.
03:51It was White House protocol.
03:53And he said, Mr. President,
03:55you've got a head of state coming
03:56and you're going to meet
03:57Prime Minister Theresa May
03:59at the North Portico.
04:00And the president looked at me
04:01and said, I had no idea
04:02where the North Portico was.
04:03You know what I mean?
04:04He was a very honest
04:06and very human moment,
04:07which you don't often see
04:08with the president.
04:08You know, the last time
04:10you and I spoke was,
04:12I believe, when your memoir
04:13came out, 2018.
04:15It was called
04:16Trump, the Blue Collar President.
04:18Yeah.
04:18In that book, you wrote that
04:20I believe we have a real opportunity
04:21in a Trump presidency
04:22to change things dramatically
04:24for the good.
04:24We might never have
04:26a president again
04:27who can move intractable barriers
04:29the way he does.
04:30It was a very complimentary
04:31portrait of the president.
04:32It was written after your time
04:33at the White House.
04:34Yeah, I certainly didn't want
04:35to be that baby
04:36or play the victim
04:38after I got fired.
04:39I was very supportive
04:40of the president
04:40up until about August of 2019.
04:43That book, if you go back
04:45and read it,
04:45I think it stands
04:46the test of time
04:47and it's a good corollary
04:49to this book
04:49because what I explained
04:50in the book
04:51is that we have a crisis
04:53of wages
04:54for a very large group
04:55of people
04:56in the United States.
04:57We've sort of left
04:58a large group of people,
05:00blue collar workers,
05:01et cetera, out.
05:02You know, we have
05:03an economically
05:05aspirational society
05:06for many
05:06and certainly
05:07for my blue collar family,
05:08we felt economically
05:09aspirational.
05:10But if you look
05:11at the data,
05:12there's about 20 to 25%
05:13of the people now
05:14that feel economically
05:16desperational.
05:16And so the message
05:17of blue collar president
05:19was he has the ability
05:21to cross over.
05:22He could be
05:23a post-partisan president.
05:24He could be
05:24a transformative president.
05:26He could help
05:26get deals done
05:27to bring that community
05:29back into the social
05:31contract of America.
05:32But that didn't happen.
05:33So what happened?
05:34But he had the potential
05:35to do that.
05:35What happened for you
05:36that changed your view
05:37on him?
05:38What was it?
05:40Well, I mean,
05:41there was a number
05:42of different things,
05:43but the main one,
05:44I was on the Bill Moore show
05:45actually defending him.
05:46I thought I was
05:47defending him.
05:48Catherine Rampell,
05:49I don't know if you
05:49ever interviewed her,
05:50but she was on the show
05:52with me.
05:52She turned to me
05:53and said,
05:53well, what about the squad?
05:55And so for your listeners
05:56and viewers,
05:56what is the squad?
05:57It's four women
05:58that are in the
05:59House of Representatives.
06:00They're pretty much
06:01hard left leaning.
06:04He said that they should
06:05go back to the countries
06:06they originally came from.
06:08Three of them are born
06:09in the United States.
06:10One is a naturalized citizen.
06:12That's American nativism.
06:13That's a form of racism.
06:15So Catherine asked me
06:17on a live television,
06:18she said,
06:18well, you're defending
06:18the president.
06:19What do you think
06:19of the remarks
06:20about the squad?
06:21I said, listen,
06:22I don't like them.
06:22My Italian-American
06:23grandmother was told
06:24that in the 1920s.
06:26It broke her heart.
06:27She used to talk about it
06:28to us in the 1960s
06:29and 70s.
06:31And I wish he wouldn't
06:32talk like that.
06:32That's a form of nativism.
06:34It's a form of racism.
06:35He's the American president.
06:36Well, Bill Maher said to me,
06:38he's going to attack you tomorrow.
06:40I said, there's no way.
06:40I was defending him.
06:41He said, ah,
06:42you were seven for eight for him.
06:43You got to go 13 for 10.
06:45I said, he's not watching your show.
06:47He goes, what are you,
06:48an idiot?
06:48Stormy Daniels was on the show tonight.
06:49That was his first guest.
06:50He was watching.
06:51And so he was watching
06:52and he started blasting me
06:54the next day.
06:55I'm a New Yorker.
06:56So I started blasting back
06:58and then he blasted me again
07:00and I blasted him.
07:00Then he started attacking my wife.
07:02And so he knew
07:03that Deirdre and I
07:04were going through
07:05a personal relationship crisis
07:07when I was in the White House.
07:09We had a divorce paperwork
07:12put together.
07:13Thank God we reconciled our marriage
07:14because we love each other.
07:15But it was a bridge too far for me.
07:17You know, he's capable
07:18of doing things
07:20that are way outside
07:22the standard deviation
07:23of what's normal
07:24for an American president.
07:25And I had given him
07:26millions of dollars.
07:27I'd supported him.
07:28And you're going after my wife.
07:29You know, I've got a problem
07:30at home that I'm trying to repair.
07:32It was just a bridge
07:33too far for me.
07:34And I said, okay,
07:35this guy's not the type of leader
07:37that should be
07:37the president of the United States.
07:38And so I spoke out against him.
07:41I was probably one of the first people
07:42that was an aide
07:43or an assistant to the president.
07:44There are many now,
07:45not just me,
07:46that try to tell people
07:47how dangerous he is.
07:48But that's what happened.
07:49That's the origin
07:50of me saying,
07:51hey, no mas.
07:52That's not cool.
07:54What happened, though,
07:55to the contract,
07:57in your view,
07:58that Donald Trump made
08:00while on the campaign trail
08:01certainly the first time around
08:03in saying,
08:03I'm going to bring more of you people
08:05into the economy.
08:05I'm going to help those of you
08:07who feel like both Democrats
08:08and Republicans
08:09maybe have left you behind
08:11in some ways.
08:12Well, that was the blueprint
08:12for blue-collar presidents.
08:13So there were so many different things
08:15he could have done to do that.
08:16But why didn't he?
08:17That's my question.
08:18I understand the promises
08:19that he made.
08:20I think he's a distracted guy.
08:22He's a distracted guy.
08:23He'll stay on a thing
08:24and then he moves
08:25to another thing very quickly.
08:26We're supposedly having infrastructure
08:28a week in the first term
08:29every week.
08:30It never materialized.
08:31I think the tax cuts
08:34that got put through in 2017,
08:36which the conservative,
08:38more traditional Republicans
08:39like Paul Ryan
08:40wanted those tax cuts
08:42and also the SALT deduction,
08:44which hurt places like New York
08:45and blue states,
08:46I think that hurt his standing
08:49with the Democrats, frankly.
08:51And then, if you remember,
08:53he said SHIT whole countries
08:56as he was trying to put together
08:57the immigration package
08:59and these things started
09:00to unwind on him.
09:01And you had traditional Republicans
09:04in there that were indifferent
09:06to that cause,
09:07if we're being honest.
09:08Traditional Republicans
09:09in Trump 1
09:11probably protected the country
09:13and the world
09:14from the tariffs,
09:15bellicose of rhetoric
09:16against NATO,
09:17potential trade war
09:18with Canada.
09:19The guardrails, right?
09:20Yeah, all those things
09:21were things that were likely
09:23to have had happened
09:24in Trump 1
09:25had he had this level
09:27of personnel.
09:27The Trump 2 personnel
09:29and Trump 1,
09:30you would see that.
09:31But the Republicans
09:33also prevented
09:35some of the stuff
09:36that we're talking about
09:37in terms of bringing
09:38those people back
09:39into the integration
09:40of the economy.
09:40You talk Republicans.
09:41A lot of the Republicans
09:42are the personnel
09:43that are allowing things
09:44to happen.
09:45And I think it's fair to say
09:47in this...
09:48They're not traditional
09:50Republicans, though.
09:51The Republicans
09:52of Mitt Romney
09:53and John McCain
09:54and the Republicans
09:55of Adam Kissinger
09:56and Paul Ryan
09:57and General John Kelly,
09:59they're long gone
10:00from the party.
10:01This was a...
10:02You want to talk
10:02about a decapitation.
10:04You know,
10:05we have a decapitation
10:06strike in Iran,
10:07but the first decapitation
10:08strike for Donald Trump
10:09was removing
10:11senior Republican
10:12establishment leadership
10:13from the Republican Party.
10:15This was an M&A,
10:16and he installed MAGA
10:17and the Heritage Foundation.
10:19They call themselves Republicans,
10:21but they're not
10:21the Republicans
10:22I grew up with.
10:23I guess my question,
10:24we only have a minute,
10:24and we're going to come back
10:25and talk some more, Anthony,
10:26but who are these Americans?
10:28Who are these leaders
10:29that I think it's safe to say,
10:31and we've done a lot
10:32of reporting about
10:34various individuals
10:35who are in this administration
10:36and the money
10:36that they're making
10:37based on policies,
10:38and it just feels like
10:41we didn't drain the swamp.
10:44Well, you know,
10:45let me tell you this,
10:46under Donald Trump,
10:46it's not a...
10:47And we've got 30 seconds,
10:47and we're going to bring you back.
10:49Under Donald Trump,
10:51it's not a swamp.
10:52It is a gold-plated hot tub.
10:54Okay?
10:54I mean, if you think about it,
10:55it's very high-level,
10:56open-faced,
10:58shameless activity
11:00to self-enrich people,
11:01and I think it's disgusting,
11:02and I do think
11:03they'll be held accountable,
11:03though.
11:04I don't think they can
11:05get away with it.
11:06I mean, he can pardon
11:07his family members
11:07and pardon himself,
11:08but there's a whole big
11:10atomic blast there.
11:12I want to get right back
11:12to Anthony Scaramucci.
11:14He joins us now.
11:15He's founder and managing partner
11:15of Skybridge.
11:16He's the co-host of the podcast
11:17The Rest is Politics.
11:19Of course,
11:20former White House
11:20Communications Director, too.
11:22His new book,
11:22All the Wrong Moves,
11:23How Three Catastrophic Decisions
11:25Led to the Rise of Trump.
11:27You know, it's interesting.
11:28We were talking about
11:29your previous book,
11:31your memoir,
11:32Trump, the Blue-Collar President,
11:33and as preparing for this
11:35after reading this,
11:35I did go back
11:36and look at that book,
11:37and you're right.
11:38There's a lot of connection
11:40to what you talk about
11:41growing up on Long Island,
11:42your working-class background,
11:43and then you get into
11:45more detail
11:45in the first part
11:46of your book here.
11:47The Catastrophic,
11:48what you call
11:49the three catastrophic decisions
11:50that led to the rise of Trump.
11:51I want to talk about
11:52some of those decisions now.
11:54Let's talk a little bit
11:55about China
11:55and the World Trade Organization
11:57because you say
11:58a lot of it comes from that.
12:00Well, okay,
12:00so you have to step back
12:02and you have to see
12:03where America was
12:04at that time.
12:05The Berlin Walls
12:05fallen down.
12:07Francis Fukuyama
12:07said the end of history.
12:09We put budgetary guardrails
12:11together between Bush,
12:12Warren and Clinton
12:13that are leading America
12:15to a budget surplus.
12:16Everybody knows
12:16we printed a $200-plus
12:18billion surplus
12:19at the end of 2000,
12:21but now we're in November
12:22of 1999.
12:23China wants permanent status
12:24in the World Trade Organization.
12:26American business leaders
12:27want to give it to them.
12:28We see at that time,
12:30and I write the first chapter,
12:31I got this wrong.
12:32I saw a Chinese market opening.
12:34I saw an opportunity
12:35for us to sell goods
12:37and services
12:38to 1.3 billion people,
12:39as did the Fortune 100 CEOs,
12:42as did Wall Street.
12:44You're not the only one
12:45who got this wrong.
12:46I'm just going to say,
12:46I was at the Wall Street Journal
12:48and kind of the lead up to it.
12:49We actually created a show,
12:52the Asian Wall Street Journal
12:53over in Hong Kong.
12:54Everybody was clamoring
12:55to push open.
12:57Everybody wanted access
12:58to that market.
12:59I mean,
13:00I don't think there was
13:01any way to stop that.
13:02But that market didn't open.
13:02That market didn't open,
13:04and that's what we got wrong.
13:05But I think the concept
13:06was that people thought,
13:07okay,
13:08if we have a presence,
13:09if you have the Western presence
13:10and all these geo,
13:12these multinational companies
13:13over in China,
13:14they will change.
13:15I think they really thought
13:17the government was going to change.
13:18I write all about that
13:18in the book.
13:19There was one person.
13:20And that was the belief.
13:21Because I looked through
13:22tons of interviews,
13:24tons of Wall Street Journal articles
13:25and research for the book.
13:27There was one person
13:28that said it's not going to work.
13:29And I give her a lot of credit
13:31for that.
13:31That was Nancy Pelosi.
13:32And she got on C-SPAN.
13:33There was more than one C-SPAN speech.
13:35She was warning about
13:37it's a one-party system.
13:40We're taking a leap
13:41that they're going to open
13:42their system politically.
13:44They had just had
13:45the Tiananmen Square crisis
13:46in 1989.
13:47And they had a lot of
13:49anti-libertarian crackdowns
13:51in the country.
13:52And so we got it wrong
13:54because we were projecting
13:55what we wanted them to do
13:57based on our perspective
13:59and our pride
14:00on our own system.
14:01Now, I think China should be
14:03in the World Trade Organization
14:04if you read the book.
14:06Right.
14:06And I think we should have
14:07globalism.
14:07And I believe in the
14:08David Ricardo principles
14:09of global trade
14:11seeking the lowest cost provider.
14:13However, when China, okay,
14:17is coming in as an emerging market
14:19like El Salvador,
14:20Dominican Republic,
14:21and they get to the size
14:22of the UK
14:23or the size of Germany,
14:25they needed to be treated
14:26like Germany or the UK.
14:27And they weren't.
14:29And they were clipping off
14:2911%, 10% growth,
14:31had their market closed,
14:33flooded our markets.
14:34We benefited lower costs
14:35of goods and services
14:37and things like that.
14:38Every American, yeah.
14:39But we lost a lot
14:41of our manufacturing
14:42and we flatlined our wages
14:44for a very large group of people.
14:46And we have to accept that.
14:48And China was part of it.
14:49It wasn't the whole story.
14:50But it was a big enough
14:51symbolic part of it
14:53that it weighs heavy
14:53on those people.
14:54You also talk about
14:55President Obama,
14:57the bailout of Wall Street.
14:58You also talk about George W.,
15:00the war without tax,
15:02like so we didn't pay for it
15:03basically without raising taxes.
15:04There were a lot of things at play.
15:05I feel like, Anthony,
15:07as you lay it out,
15:08and we talk about it a lot
15:09and we are, you know,
15:10capitalism,
15:11this is what we report on
15:12all the time,
15:13that greed in many ways,
15:16too much money in politics,
15:18too much concerns about,
15:19you know, the bottom line,
15:20which is why we pushed
15:21everything offshore.
15:22Like, that in many ways
15:24ultimately led to
15:25kind of where we are.
15:27I think so.
15:28But I think under
15:29President Clinton's leadership,
15:30we put guardrails on the Congress.
15:32We had budgetary constraints.
15:34You know, Al Gore was cautioning
15:36about a reaction in the Gulf
15:38after the 9-11 crisis.
15:41I mean, you may remember
15:42this George Soros sort of,
15:43I mean, he's a pariah
15:44to the conservatives,
15:45but he wrote an op-ed
15:46in the New York Times
15:47in November of 2001
15:49to be careful,
15:50don't overreact,
15:51and play into
15:52Osama bin Laden's hands.
15:53If you go to the dark web
15:55or you read
15:55Lawrence Wright's book
15:56about 9-11,
15:58Osama bin Laden said,
15:59I'm going to hit America
16:00in the homeland.
16:01They're going to overreact
16:03and come to my land
16:04and spill their blood,
16:06spill their treasure.
16:07They will pull
16:08their civil liberties,
16:09and we did that
16:10with the Patriot Act.
16:11And we ended up spending
16:12$8 trillion
16:13on those two wars.
16:15And I'll just point out,
16:16we cut taxes in May,
16:19April of 2001.
16:20We went to war
16:21in October in Afghanistan.
16:23We cut taxes again
16:24in 03, early part of 03,
16:26at war in Iraq in March.
16:28And that blew a hole
16:29in the system.
16:30And so just hear me out
16:31because I threaded
16:32these things.
16:33Stagnant wages,
16:34now you have this
16:36inflationary induction
16:37of deficit spending.
16:39And guys, you know this,
16:41but the U.S. dollar
16:41has lost 28%
16:42of its value
16:43since December of 2019.
16:47And so that's a huge problem
16:48for wage earners.
16:49And then the last piece,
16:51oh, by the way,
16:51let's just bail out
16:52the fat cats.
16:53There's nothing
16:54in the allocation
16:55for poor or middle-class families
16:56or people that need
16:58credit card relief
16:59or rental relief.
17:00People say,
17:01hey, there's a two-tiered system.
17:02It's not fair.
17:03That's how you got
17:04to occupy Wall Street.
17:04We should have just
17:05paid everybody's mortgages off
17:06and we would have
17:07solved the problem.
17:08It's not about
17:08paying their mortgages off.
17:10It's much about
17:12apportioning
17:12and assination.
17:13If you're going to bail
17:15one group out
17:16without bailing
17:16the other group out,
17:17you're going to make
17:18that group feel
17:19that it was unfair
17:19and you're going to
17:20engender the Tea Party movement
17:22and you're going to
17:22engender Occupy Wall Street.
17:24We only have a minute left.
17:25You have to come back.
17:26It's not the problem.
17:27I just want to end
17:29on your note
17:29about why you think
17:31we have hope right now
17:32and your view
17:33of what you call
17:34the solution here.
17:34Just very briefly.
17:36Just in 30 seconds,
17:38the country's
17:38neurally plastic.
17:39We got ourselves
17:40out of the Civil War.
17:41We got ourselves
17:42out of the Depression.
17:43Every 80 years,
17:44we sort of dunk ourselves.
17:45We're at that
17:46turning point now
17:47and there's a lot
17:48of incredibly smart people
17:49that are now fully engaged.
17:51We have to reform elements
17:53of our government
17:53to make it function better
17:55and I think we're going
17:56to get people
17:57that are not focused
17:57on left
17:58and right-leaning policies
17:59but more about
18:00what's right or wrong
18:01for the country.
18:03You know,
18:03sort of the Mike Bloomberg
18:05technocratic way
18:05of running things
18:06and I'm hopeful for that.
18:08I can see people
18:09on the horizon
18:10and the book
18:10is a template
18:11to explain what happened
18:13and to say
18:13we can totally fix this.
18:15It's resolvable
18:16including the deficit
18:17but here's how
18:18we have to start thinking.
18:19Yes or no,
18:20would you go back
18:20to politics?
18:21No,
18:22it's not for me.
18:24You've got to lie
18:25when you're in politics.
18:26I don't feel like it.
18:27I've got a great life.
18:29I get to talk to you guys
18:30on an afternoon
18:31and don't have to worry
18:32about anything.
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