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In an interview on the Chakra View podcast with Gaurav, former Chinar Corps Commander Lieutenant General Satish Dua detailed the operational sequence of the 2016 Uri terror attack and India's subsequent cross-Line of Control surgical strikes.
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00:0518th of September 2016, one of the darkest chapters in India's war on counter-terror
00:14operations in Jammu and Kashmir. This was the day when Pakistani terrorists, they breached
00:21the perimeter fence of Uri military garrison, entered and carried out a massacre of Indian
00:30soldiers. 18 Indian braves made the supreme sacrifice of their lives. And that was the
00:36time a decision was taken to punish Pakistan terror at source. With me on this special broadcast
00:45is Lieutenant General Satish Dua. General Satish Dua was the Kashmir Corps commander and one
00:52of the key architects of India's retribution plan. Sir, welcome.
00:58Thank you. Thank you, Gaurav.
01:00How do you, it's 10 years of India's retribution, India's surgical strikes into Pakistan-occupied
01:08Jammu and Kashmir. How do you remember the 18th of September in 2016, the Uri terror attack,
01:14sir? Gaurav, I'm glad you framed the question like this because in any case, I would have
01:20started with this. Because while everyone talks of the victory that we carved out as a never
01:29before operation during the surgical strikes, but for me, I always go back to 18th of September
01:37September. Because 18th of September is a dark Sunday. It was a Sunday. It is the darkest day
01:45of my life. I lost 18 young lives on my watch. So no commander, military commander can live down
01:53that such a loss. So what we did 10 days later, 28th night we launched and 29th it was announced.
02:01What we did 10 days later, and we'll discuss how that happened. But that what came to be known as
02:07Uri surgical strike was only a consolation that we avenged the death of those of those brave hearts.
02:15You know, I'll take you back to the night of 18th. It was very traumatic for us as civilians,
02:23as outsiders, as people who cover the armed forces. But for you to be leading those men,
02:31what did you hear? What was the first information that you got, sir?
02:35So it was on the early morning of 18th, somewhere around 4.30 or so, that I got the call
02:43from
02:44the GOC of the Barra Mullah division, that there is a terror, there has been a terror attack at our
02:50camp at Uri. Now, as time passed, I, you know, information started pouring in. And after the while
02:59that operation or that while that attack was going on, our troops were killing, eliminating those
03:04terrorists. But in that time, the casualties kept mounting. And eventually it was 18.
03:11My God. And by that time, my first daybreak, I got a chopper and went to Uri. So by then,
03:21the operation was over. That means the four terrorists had been eliminated, but not before
03:26we lost those 18 brave hearts. In fact, each figure is like a stab in the heart. I mean,
03:32when it was three, four, six, ten, it's like... Every soldier realizes that it's an occupational
03:41hazard. Yes. Nevertheless, the grief is never lesser. And as a commander, more so. When I was
03:47commanding officer of my own battalion for three years plus on the LOC, during which Kargil war
03:53also took place, I lost six soldiers, two majors and six, a total eight, two majors and six soldiers.
04:02So these are the things that you can never live down. You know, it weighs very heavy on the
04:07conscious of the heart, the mind of a commander. So these Pakistani terrorists, because I've been
04:13to that Uri garrison and we've seen it. So on the front side, it's very well protected. Yes.
04:19Apparently, they came from the rear when there was just barbed wire fence there. True. They were able
04:25to breach that barbed wire fence and just walk in. What is it that you thought that we need to
04:30do
04:31immediately to ensure this never happens again? So, I mean, I'll be very frank and candid. I said it
04:36even then. There have been gaps in our security that they could manage to come in. My saying that
04:46actually a battalion was being relieved in the process of being relieved by another battalion,
04:51and that's what happens in summers only because only in summers that relief can take place. I remember
04:56you came there and we met then also. So because of that, in that camp, there were more soldiers than
05:06it is built for. So they were tense because for those three, four weeks, while the acclimatization
05:11and the hand-in-taking process takes place, there are two battalions. Most of them are on post,
05:17but from the base, there are many troops. So because of that, we suffered more casualties.
05:24Otherwise, the number of the strength of soldiers would have been lesser, but that doesn't take
05:30anything away from the fact that they were sadly, we were caught unaware. And I believe the then
05:38army commander came there, General Huda, army chief, General Suhad. Yes, everyone was there.
05:42And I believe Raksha Mantri also came there. Yes, and I'll tell you about that. So the army
05:46chief, General Huda and I, we visited that place where fires were actually raging because in one
05:55cookhouse, a cylinder had exploded and it had caught fire and the mortal remains were being pulled out.
06:03And so all that and sanitization operations were going on. Sanitization operations, I know you
06:08understand, but let me say that for the viewers that, you know, we search the nearby jungles and
06:12mountains if there are more terrorists hidden there or lurking around. So all that was being done.
06:18Then I got a call and that I got a call from the defense secretary on my mobile
06:25saying the defense minister, he said, the defense minister is coming.
06:30I had never met him earlier, though later I worked with him. Mr. G. Mohan was the defense secretary.
06:34And he said, General Huda, the defense minister is coming. Raksha Mantri is coming. I remember my first
06:42response was a protest. Why today? You know, I didn't want...
06:45You know, bodies are still there.
06:46Yeah. And I didn't want VIPs on my hands. I was getting so many calls.
06:51You know, the army chief and army commander are very right to be there
06:56in a scenario of that magnitude. But I said, you know, I was getting, handling so many calls. We
07:02are coordinating operations. We had to bring the mortal remains back. We had to transport them to
07:06different parts of the country and all that next day. So, but he said he's already taken off.
07:12When he was talking to me, he had already taken off. So there was no arguing. And
07:19when we received him at Srinagar airport, the army chief was there already. And
07:25he wanted to go to Uri. And I said, no, sir. I mean, that was my call as Kashmir was
07:31operationally
07:31my domain. I said, no, sir. You can't go to... We can't let you go to Uri.
07:35Because sanitation operations are still on.
07:37Sanitation operations are on. Stray bullet and explosion and IED. Something can happen.
07:41True. So I said, we can't. Let's go back to my headquarters. I'll take you to BB Cant.
07:45And as you know, BB Cant is just about a 45 minutes drive. But we took a helicopter, a Mi
07:5117.
07:51It's a seven, eight minutes flight. Mi 17, as you know, it makes a lot of racket. You can't talk
08:00to
08:00each other. It is that moment. I, the first time I got during the day where I couldn't, I was
08:07not
08:07talking to anyone. And I was alone with my thoughts, my grief and my moments. And a thought struck me,
08:14what good can come out of it now that the defense minister has arrived today?
08:18You know, normally leaders, they get a little late, they get angry, they get angry, so whatever
08:23thing, you know.
08:26So I exactly thought of this, you know, when you say, there's a lot of anger in the country.
08:30Let me recall for the viewers that few months before that, there was a Patanko air-based terror attack.
08:37Then, there was an attack on the EDI building in Pampora, a six-story building.
08:42It kept showing on national media for two days.
08:44They took 66…
08:45And we lost brave soldiers of the 9th Paris F.
08:47We lost, we lost, yeah, one from 10 and two from 9th Paris F.
08:51And, but we took out all the 66 hostages safely.
08:55Yes, I remember.
08:56And the terrorists were killed.
08:57But it was a huge operation.
08:59So, you know, the terrorists were, I mean, their, the scale of operation and their audacity
09:05was on the increase, you know.
09:07So there was, like you said, I decided, I thought that there was a lot of anger in the nation.
09:11There's outrage against Pakistan-sponsored terrorism.
09:14My soldiers wanted revenge.
09:16The leadership is agitated and we decided to turn this pain into an opportunity.
09:20Yes.
09:20But credit goes to Mr. Parika.
09:23After his briefing, he says,
09:25I said, Sir, Baidar, if you mean response, then I would like to discuss in my office.
09:32Not in, in the operation room, you know, there are 30, 35 officers,
09:35including civilian officers who were accompanied in from the Ministry of Defense,
09:39along with the RM.
09:40And we can't talk in front of everyone.
09:43So we came to my office, only the defense minister, the…
09:46You have a very nice, quiet office.
09:47I mean, the co-commander's office is a very nice, quiet office.
09:50And, but it was not a quiet moment.
09:54I mean, there was turbulent, and our minds were not at peace.
09:57So the defense minister, the army chief, the northern army commander, General Huda,
10:03and I, only four of us.
10:05So there, first the army chief spoke.
10:08I mean, he has to speak at national level.
10:10That's beyond my pay grade.
10:12So he spoke about the strengths and, well, criticalities, etc., what is our preparedness level.
10:18Similarly, the army commander gave a picture of the whole command.
10:24And that, that was a very, for him, it is Ladakh.
10:27It is Nagru, Jammu region, and this, for the army commander.
10:32Then he turned towards me.
10:33You know, Kashmir is my domain.
10:35My, operationally, mine.
10:37Was then.
10:38So I was, I actually used, I was thinking of how to grab his attention.
10:43And I said in Hindi, suddenly I switched to Hindi, and I said,
10:46Sir, aap haan kehdo, may kar dunga.
10:48I still remember.
10:49I know I said this, I have written this book in my first book.
10:52Aap kehdo, may kar dunga.
10:53Aap haan kehdo.
10:54He said what?
10:56What did you have in mind?
10:57Yeah, so I told him that.
10:58He said, Sir, they send terrorists.
11:02They kill our civilians.
11:04They kill our soldiers, sometimes mutilate their bodies.
11:07It comes out.
11:07Beheadings, 2013.
11:09Even before that.
11:10Even before that, during my CO days.
11:12When you were CO, there was a beheading.
11:13They were beheading, sir.
11:15Many times the bat actions, as we call them.
11:17So I said, they do this and they run back.
11:19And they deny.
11:20Aap haan kehdo, exactly.
11:23I said, we can't send, exactly my words.
11:25I said, we can't send terrorists there.
11:27So what do we do?
11:29Let us do, you allow us, let us do something that has never been done before.
11:35We will go across.
11:36We know, we will not entangle with Pakistan.
11:38But haven't we gone across even in the past?
11:40If I remember correctly, you have sent soldiers across when you were CO,
11:44after that beheading incident in your command?
11:47Yes, we have.
11:49How is this different?
11:50Yeah, and I have answered this several times in the last decade, eight years that I have been retired now.
11:56You know, how is that different is, there are three different things.
12:02One, at the scale of it, the number of places that it happened simultaneously in what is now known as
12:11uri-surgical strikes was multiple places, not one place.
12:15Secondly, the depth.
12:16This was four, five kilometers inside.
12:20Okay.
12:20Different places, different depths.
12:24Earlier, those commissions are on the LOC, a little inside here, a little inside there.
12:30LOC is a nebulous concept.
12:32Okay, it's very easy to mark on a map.
12:34Yes.
12:35But there are places where LOC passes through villages.
12:39Yes.
12:40There are places where there are relatives on either side.
12:42So there are places where they talk, their cattle goes across and they get them back and things like that
12:48happen.
12:48You know, so that is a different concept.
12:51So the scale was different, one.
12:56Second, for the first time, all the three instruments were used.
13:01Military instrument, I'm talking of instruments of national power.
13:04So military instrument was used, that is the surgical strike itself, but also diplomatic.
13:12Now, I'll tell you a very interesting case.
13:14Nowadays, UN General Assembly is in session, right?
13:17Every September, UN General Assembly is in session.
13:21That was the case even then.
13:2218th September, they attacked, this terrorist attack took place.
13:2721st September was Nawaz Sharif's, Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif's address to the General Assembly.
13:35In those three days, our political and diplomatic machinery worked hard to isolate Pakistan on this
13:42terror attack.
13:43So they worked so hard that during those three days, the whole world was, you know,
13:49sort of criticizing Pakistan for this kind of terror attack.
13:53Then we decide, we have to decide how we will, when the attack, our response will take place.
13:59For that, Sushma Saraj's address was on 25th September.
14:02So we said we will do it after that.
14:04Suppose some things go wrong, she should not draw a flag.
14:07So, you know, the diplomatic instrument played very well.
14:09You were ready to go immediately.
14:10Yes.
14:11Your boys were ready.
14:12No, no, no.
14:12We can't go.
14:13We can't go the next day.
14:14We need some preparation.
14:15We actually needed some training.
14:17We made some walk-ups.
14:18So we did all that.
14:20So the boys did that.
14:21The special forces who went.
14:23Not immediately, but then this was one factor.
14:26We have to consider other factors like the moon phase.
14:28We want a dark night and, you know, things like that.
14:32And the last thing, why it was different, I'm answering that question.
14:37For the first time ever, the country took ownership.
14:41Yes.
14:42The DGMO in full uniform came out and announced to the world, announced to the media,
14:48to the world media and national media that he has already informed his counterpart in Pakistan
14:54that we did this.
14:56So that's the ownership.
14:57We did this because Udaydudi and we don't want to escalate it.
15:00Okay.
15:01But if I may, you know, in the past, you've done surgical strikes or raids, if I may.
15:08Raids, yes.
15:08Raids have been done even in the past.
15:10This time, describe the scale.
15:12I mean, did you hit 15 places, 10 places?
15:17How many places did you hit?
15:18And on both sides of Peer Panjal?
15:20Yes, of course.
15:21The initial idea was originated in my office when we discussed, as I told you.
15:27And that's also very interesting because, okay, we'll talk about that later,
15:31how Mr. Parikar gave permission.
15:33No, no, tell me now.
15:33How did Mr. Parikar give permission?
15:35So, once I said, we'll do this, he thought for a minute.
15:39And I thought the best one could hope for is that he will discuss it with the Prime Minister
15:44and, you know, you will get your orders later.
15:47He asked a few questions and allow me not to say that.
15:50I can't be discussing details, operational details.
15:53So, he asked a few questions to us, of us, and I answered most of them
15:57because the operations were mine, of course, everybody answered.
16:03And he said, okay.
16:06No, Barovar comes later.
16:08Barovar comes later.
16:08He said, okay, I know.
16:10He said, okay.
16:11But he said, there should be no casualties amongst own soldiers.
16:15But how can you guarantee that?
16:16Exactly.
16:16So, I said, sir, I agree with you.
16:17There should be no casualties.
16:18But in an operation of this magnitude, there will be casualties.
16:23You will have to be prepared.
16:25There will be casualties.
16:29Then he discussed some other things as well about casualties.
16:35But then I thought, and I actually kicked myself.
16:38You know, the Josh in me was, I kicked myself.
16:41The anger of that losing 18 soldiers and the Josh to do something.
16:44I kicked myself.
16:45Why did I say this?
16:46Now he will not.
16:47Now, how can he give permission once you are telling him there will be casualties?
16:51You know, politics.
16:54But he thought for a minute.
16:55And this is where I always say, if one man has to be credited, it is Mr. Parikar.
17:02He said then one word, Barovar.
17:05Imagine he gave us, I had permission to do something that was never,
17:09we had permission to do something that was never done before.
17:11It was said in front of my army chief.
17:13It was said in front of my army commander.
17:14We didn't have to take any approvals.
17:16We didn't have to.
17:17Yes, we had to plan together.
17:18We had to take an oversight and guidance and all that.
17:21But the permission was given in field.
17:23It was no presentations.
17:26Okay.
17:26Now, explain this to me.
17:29You were Chinar Corps commander.
17:31Yes.
17:31So area north of Pir Panjal is your baby.
17:34Kashmir Valley.
17:34Kashmir Valley.
17:35Yeah.
17:35And you decided to go across and hit.
17:38No, but then army commander decided to very rightly.
17:42We discussed that after Mr. Parikar left.
17:45How are we going to do it?
17:46Army commander very rightly decided to expand.
17:49Expanded how much?
17:50Expanded to 16 corps.
17:52That means south of Pir Panjal also.
17:54Yes.
17:54So then you know the LOC is 780 kilometers roughly.
17:59And we decided to do it across the spectrum.
18:02Now, what happens is it takes away the enemy's mind where all it is happening.
18:08Yes.
18:08And he will actually, if there are X number of points, he will imagine more than X number of points
18:14are being hit.
18:15So how many points did you hit?
18:1715?
18:1720?
18:18I am not going to say anything.
18:2010?
18:20I can't.
18:2110?
18:2110?
18:22So you'll have to, how can I answer that?
18:24More than half a dozen?
18:26I'm not going to say no to that.
18:28More than half a dozen.
18:29So between 6 and 10 is what you've hit.
18:32Right.
18:33On either side of Pir Panjal.
18:34So our soldiers went in at six to eight different places and went and hit.
18:41How deep did they go?
18:42So the depth is different because the terrorist camps are targets that were terrorist camps.
18:51Some are, they are at variable depths, you know.
18:53So they went at different places.
18:55And so, and also the size of the camp were different in all places.
19:00That means the number of terrorists, the number of our targets there were more or less, you know, so in
19:05different, different.
19:06So we have security on our side because they send in terrorists.
19:10So, you know, like in Uri, perhaps you have very good fencing at the LC or all along the 770
19:18kilometers.
19:19We have fencing behind the LOC.
19:21Behind the LC.
19:22Meant for terrorist.
19:24Correct.
19:24You know, infiltration.
19:25Meant to stop.
19:26But he has no fence.
19:27No, no.
19:27He never expects us to go there.
19:30But he must be having landmines at least.
19:32So I'll tell you, how it works is, there are posts on either side.
19:39Now, let's not talk about terrorist infiltration.
19:41Let's just talk about LOC, how we guard our borders.
19:44Correct.
19:44So there are posts on either side.
19:47And in good old days, before 80s, there were only these posts.
19:50Correct.
19:52And the posts are ringed by a minefield.
19:56Just the posts.
19:57Just the posts.
19:57So why?
19:58Because they are for the defense of the posts.
20:00Correct.
20:01For the, so if there are enemy attacks, so first they will encounter the landmines.
20:05So there are posts.
20:06There are minefields across the, around the posts and other obstacles.
20:11But there are huge gaps in between.
20:14It is in these gaps that, using these gaps, the terrorists have started infiltrating over the last
20:22few decades.
20:24So we use the same routes to.
20:26So we, we, yes.
20:27So we do, we, Indian Army has been doing patrolling, laying ambushes at night at the likely
20:32infiltration spots.
20:33We have put our fence.
20:34So we are becoming more and more defensive.
20:36Pakistan Army has no reason to be defensive in between the posts.
20:40True.
20:41I mean, before then, before 10 years, 2016, they had no reason to do this.
20:47Now it gives me a lot of satisfaction to see that they are also laying ambushes.
20:51They are also patrolling because they fear this will happen anytime.
20:54True.
20:55So good.
20:56Absolutely.
20:57So you bring uncertainty, let him also bleed.
20:59Absolutely.
21:00So then when, to answer your question, when our troops infiltrated, we used, we also infiltrated,
21:07not terrorists, but special forces, those guys infiltrated, not entangling with the post,
21:12army post, and went and hit the terrorist camps, which was inside, and exfiltrated.
21:18So how did they hit?
21:19I mean, what did they hit?
21:21So what happens in a place, there is typically, there are terrorists, there is some training
21:27infrastructure because they do training there, whether it's obstacle course or a firing range,
21:31then there are some logistic dumps.
21:33So how did they hit?
21:36Not like that movie.
21:38You know, there is no hand-to-hand combat.
21:40See, the movie stoked up a very positive patriotic sentiment.
21:45But, you know, you have to tell it like a story, like a movie.
21:48Right.
21:49And, but it was based on this.
21:51So the attack does not take place that hand-to-hand and things like that.
21:56That doesn't.
21:57So standoff distance.
21:58Absolutely.
21:58Why would we entangle with them?
21:59Absolutely.
22:00So we, we used appropriate weapons, different types of weapons.
22:03In, like in one case, uh, uh, FOL dump.
22:07That is a fuel dump, oil, barrels and all.
22:10They went up in smoke and on the UAV feed, we could see a black smoke billowing, like a
22:15nuclear mushroom, you know, rising.
22:18Because also the UAV, uh, frankly, doesn't give the drones as we call it nowadays.
22:24They don't give that frontal view that Hollywood or Bollywood movies show.
22:28I mean, now FPV does.
22:29Yeah, FPV does.
22:30But otherwise, now you saw dots and you have to interpret the images in a military manner.
22:35Correct, correct.
22:35So you use drones that time.
22:38And, uh, so the fuel oil lubricant or the, uh, you know, uh, thing went up there.
22:43Uh, apparently you also hit terrorists where some terrorists were killed.
22:47Yes.
22:47What is your assessment?
22:48How many terrorists were killed?
22:49So, uh, regarding the number of terrorists, figures vary from, uh, by different intelligence
22:55inputs.
22:56So we were not there counting bodies.
22:57We had to rush back.
22:58Okay.
22:58So, um, so there are different inputs that intelligence compiled.
23:03Actually, the inputs are based originating from Pakistan side.
23:07Right.
23:07Because one, I remember one input that I was put up.
23:11It was, so bodies are being loaded in trucks and things like that they were saying.
23:16So some places are different.
23:17So if you want to figure, it was, uh, certainly upwards of 30s, 38 or so, and between 35, let's,
23:27let's say round figure 40 to 60, somewhere there.
23:3040 to 60 terrorists were killed.
23:32But was Pakistan's morale impacted in your view?
23:36That was surgical strike the first time that scale, both north and south of Pirpanjal, more
23:42than half a dozen places hit simultaneously.
23:43And apparently he lost some soldiers.
23:46I remember reporting two sources.
23:48Yes, I, I gathered, I was, it was reported that two soldiers, uh, they lost two soldiers
23:56on that night.
23:57Now we did not entangle with, uh, Pakistan army posts.
24:01However, at a certain point of time, when all these, uh, posts, uh, all these terrorist
24:06camps were stuck at the same time, Pakistan army started firing.
24:11Now, where were they firing? They didn't know our location.
24:14So they were taking, that was predicated firing.
24:16They were just trying to take a guess.
24:18So they started some motor firing and, uh, small arms firing.
24:21They didn't know they were firing.
24:22Now, I don't know how the casualties took place because we still didn't fire back at the enemy post.
24:27So either there have been some landmine explosions or their factory side.
24:31I cannot answer that.
24:32Okay.
24:33Yes.
24:33They did say the two of them, although, and they said, uh, that no surgical strike has taken place.
24:39They said nothing has taken place.
24:41Uh, Indian army has only fired from across the LC firing.
24:44There's been nothing.
24:46They were forced to do that, I guess, because, uh, uh, otherwise their country, their public,
24:53they would ask them, then what are you doing about it?
24:56Yeah.
24:56And they were in no position to strike back.
24:59Their Pakistan army was in no position to do anything.
25:03So what happened in operation Sindhu?
25:07Where would they strike?
25:08Again, not terrorists.
25:09There are no terrorist camps.
25:10So they will have to strike military targets.
25:12If they're going to strike military targets, then we will strike them back.
25:15So like we discussed with our defense minister of our, uh, strengths of our criticality,
25:21et cetera, they would also have to take a military call.
25:23You know, it's very easy to talk in a talk show like this, but their military is good for them
25:30to make speeches, but their military has to take a military call.
25:34Are they willing to then, uh, incur the wrath of our country?
25:38So, but surgical strike, uh, you know, because I have reported on Pakistan state-sponsored radical
25:45Islamist terror from the 1993 trials in court to 2611 Mumbai terror attacks on ground to a series
25:53of other terror attacks, including, you remember, sir, Badami Baak in tournament?
25:56Oh, yes, it was.
25:56That first IED.
25:572000 wala johua tha.
25:582000 mein johua tha.
25:59Yes, yes, yes.
25:59That first VBIED attack.
26:00Yeah, VBIED attack that PR center and the entry.
26:02Correct, sir.
26:03And, and subsequently a series of attacks, whether they were happening in Jammu Kashmir or rest of our country,
26:07they were attacking our temples.
26:09Yes.
26:09They were attacking our marketplaces.
26:11And there was hardly any response before this surgical strike.
26:14And may I add, Gaurav, that ever since 2016, I'm not saying, uh, there have been no terrorist
26:22attacks.
26:23There have been Pulwama, there have been, uh, all that, but there has been no terrorist attack,
26:29major terrorist attack in the rest of the country.
26:32Red Fort happened, but Red Fort was a preparation for something else.
26:36Yes.
26:36I mean, that is one exception to prove the rule.
26:39Overall, in the last 10 years, we've not attacked, have had terrorist attacks in the rest of the country.
26:43Pahle bohat hote thi.
26:44Pahle bohat hote thi.
26:44Sarojini Nagar, Bombay, all those things happened.
26:47Yeah.
26:48And so surgical strike also exposed the Pakistan army, didn't it?
26:54Yes.
26:54That they're not in a position to hit back.
26:56They'll, they'll only deny, which gives you a double advantage.
26:59Absolutely.
27:28You hit him and he'll deny.
27:29Across the LOC.
27:30Which was very dramatic.
27:32Obviously, all this Captain Vikram Batra, Dil Mange Moore, Manoj Pandey,
27:37Vikram Thapa, everybody, uh, were, were attacking, uh, uphill.
27:42True.
27:43We could have, uh, gone from behind.
27:45So, in fact, that is where I think the decision making.
27:48No.
27:48Go on, sir.
27:49Because, sorry.
27:49Why?
27:50Because Bill Clinton and everybody forced us.
27:54They didn't want two nuclear neighbors in a conflict that could like spark off a nuclear war.
28:00That's what they thought.
28:01So, we always have been, uh, sort of, uh, restrained.
28:05They always expected little restraint from India as a more responsible, mature and bigger country.
28:10Uh, let's not escalate to nuclear, uh, dimension.
28:13And so this, with this, we found that space.
28:16So, tell me about the leadership.
28:18If these are political decisions.
28:20Since you, you know, Cargill of 1999.
28:23Yeah.
28:242611 Mumbai terror attacks.
28:26So, you, you've seen an Atal Bihari Vajpayee in Cargill.
28:28Uh, you've seen Dr. Manmohan Singh post 2611.
28:31And Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major in an interview, uh, told me that he had taken a plan
28:37to Dr. Manmohan Singh that we will hit across.
28:40Yeah.
28:40Uh, we'll, we'll bomb across.
28:41Use our fighters.
28:42I also read that.
28:42And you also, and, and that permission wasn't granted.
28:45Uh, and this time, so whether it's 2016, uh, or when, you know, Pulwama happened, Balakot
28:52airstrikes that you're not only hitting across LC, you're hitting across IB in Khaiwar Pakhtoonkhoa.
28:57Yeah.
28:58And post-Pahelgaam, Op Sindur.
29:01What difference did you notice in each of these, sir?
29:03So, uh, uh, see, as a military man, Gaurav, allow me not to get into the politics of it.
29:09Let me not say which party, when, this, that.
29:12I only take it at this.
29:13I'll tell you.
29:14Let me summarize it.
29:15Uh, exactly the instrument, incidents that you pointed out.
29:18We did not do anything after 2611.
29:21Mistake?
29:23We should have done something.
29:24Don't you think so?
29:25Oh, I absolutely think so.
29:27So, we should have done something.
29:29Uh, after the parliament attack, we at least did something.
30:02We mobilized.
30:03J&K, J&K Assembly?
30:04Absolutely.
30:05A few months before.
30:05Yes.
30:06So, the point is, we kept taking it.
30:08Now, I guess when I spoke to the, when one suggested this to the defense minister, all
30:17this that we are talking also must have played on his mind.
30:20Hmm.
30:20Don't forget that he did not say, I will go to, I will go to Delhi and give you the
30:24decision.
30:25He gave a decision then and there.
30:26Hmm.
30:26So, there must have been some sort of, he has the confidence of the leadership, or they
30:30must have had a thought like this that, you know, we can't take it lying down.
30:33And after that, in fact, jokingly, I always say, we did a surgical strike was just four,
30:39five kilometers inside, you know, that shallow.
30:41But then Pulwama Balakot was deep inside, 80 kilometers, Jabbatop near Balakot and precision
30:47air strike, a very different modus operandi.
30:49So, I said, but that, this was 10 days later, 18th to 28th, because 29th it was announced.
30:55Balakot was 12 days later.
30:57Correct.
30:5714th to 26th.
30:59Okay.
30:59February of 2019.
31:03So, I said, the surprise was on our side.
31:06And I always, I remember, I think I must have spoken to you also on different channels.
31:09I spoke after Pahlgaam.
31:11Yes.
31:11When the Prime Minister made that speech in Bihar.
31:15Yes.
31:15And while speaking to Bihar population, he suddenly spoke one paragraph, a few sentences in English.
31:20In English.
31:21So, that was for the global audience.
31:23Yeah.
31:23So, he says, we will not leave them and their backers and all that.
31:26No.
31:26The point is, I joked in one of the discussions, I think, with you.
31:30And I said, or other, some panel discussion.
31:32I said, that time we had surprise on our side.
31:36This time the Prime Minister has already lost the surprise for us.
31:38He says, we are going to do it.
31:40He says, we are going to do it.
31:41And Pakistan only has to figure out where and how.
31:43Absolutely.
31:44Even that they couldn't.
31:45Because the magnitude.
31:46So, you see.
31:47Magnitude and the broad spectrum.
31:50The depth, 110 kilometers this time.
31:52Bawalpur.
31:52Yeah.
31:53So, I think.
31:54200 kilometers, Sargodha.
31:56Yeah.
31:56That strike on Sargodha.
31:58So, we kept pushing the envelope further.
32:01But after Uri surgical strike was shallow.
32:04But it paved the way.
32:05Yeah.
32:06It showed.
32:06So, I.
32:08I mean, there's a term of which I can't use on TV.
32:10You did the first major strike in 2016.
32:15And after that, it was a free run.
32:19Isn't it?
32:20I would put it this way.
32:21That now even the Pakistan would be wary of doing high profile attacks.
32:27Now, if someone says, but they did the first strike.
32:29And I would say that is why they did it.
32:33Because they tried all this.
32:35They tried and all that.
32:36They realized that unless they do something in the valley,
32:40it doesn't grab international attention.
32:42Or even their people who are, you know, sort of funding them.
32:46They don't count that.
32:48They want valley.
32:49So, I suppose valley-centric.
32:51And Pakistan is obsessed with the valley.
32:52So, it has all become valley-centric.
32:54Is it your impression that each time you mentioned we've escalated
33:01that Operation Sindur, when you're hitting his 12 air bases,
33:07and it's a joint operation, Army, Navy, Air Force, all three services,
33:11Navy deployed, but Army hit, Army hit really hard across LC.
33:16And again, he was having a change of battalion that time in Lipa Valley.
33:20Absolutely.
33:20And that's another story which I will tell our viewers one day.
33:24Yeah.
33:24It's such a, I mean, you can never say death even of the enemy is good news.
33:29But that in a way, I looked at his as retribution even for Uri surgical strikes.
33:34He was having a change of battalion.
33:36And he was right.
33:37So, it is, I agree with your sentence.
33:39You know, you can never say deaths are good.
33:42I wish there were no wars.
33:43But it was poetic justice.
33:46It was poetic justice.
33:48And are we to understand that the template that started with the Uri surgical strike hitting
33:54both sides across the LC or both sides of P Panjal Rangers.
34:00Now, it's been templated that God forbid he tries something, the pain will be deeper and harder.
34:06I would even stick my neck out to say, I think whatever is the dispensation.
34:12That means whatever, whichever is the party in power.
34:16Now, you can't go back.
34:18That means if there is a high profile terror attack, we have to hit them.
34:22Now, it is India has shed the soft nation tag.
34:26The path has been shown by a very bold government.
34:29Three major operations we have seen.
34:32And every time, you know, pushing the envelope further and deeper.
34:36So, I think that template, like you said, has been set.
34:39Can I be a little ambitious and ask you, can he also lose his limbs in this elsewhere?
34:48And I'm sure you war-gamed it.
34:51Can he lose P.O.K.?
34:54That's, you know, that's a subject for another debate.
34:58It's a big debate.
35:01You know, a lot of, I still remember I spoke to you also once.
35:06Yes.
35:06When this latest address took place a month ago or one and a half months, two months ago.
35:11And I said this to you then, Gaurav.
35:14If the disenchantment in P.O.K. with Pakistan government
35:18does not necessarily translate into love for India.
35:21Yes.
35:22We have to be wary of that.
35:24So, I'm saying that's a subject for another debate.
35:27Fair enough.
35:28Fair enough.
35:29But for this conversation, General Dua, and for the thought to expand.
35:35Because you've done this raid even as a CO.
35:38Right.
35:39And to expand that, I think it was a brilliant decision to hit a cross.
35:45And perhaps that's the only way you can send a message to that state sponsor of Radical Islamist Terror, sir.
35:52Gaurav, thank you for saying that.
35:55I just want to make two points.
35:56One very quick point.
35:57Like you said, I've done these raids and everybody might say that what I'm talking about.
36:01But I have done a couple of these operations.
36:03And I've, with approval of Army Headquarter, I've published that in my book called Bravest of the Brave.
36:09Yes.
36:09All right.
36:10The second thing that, important thing that I want to end by, thank you very much for saying that for
36:17planning or thinking through an execution.
36:21It is, I am here sitting and, you know, talking to you today because I was a core commander then
36:26and it was planned in my office and in front of my superiors with their guidance.
36:33I want to say that, you know, the credit doesn't go to me.
36:37The credit goes to those brave arts who actually went across, raised their lives and gave us an operation.
36:42While I told Mr. Parika, there will be casualties, but fortune favors the brave, we didn't have a single casualty.
36:47Second, it goes, the credit goes to my subordinate commanders, the GOCs, their staff, my own staff, and the oversight
36:56and guidance of the Army commander at the command level because he expanded it.
37:01Then 16 Corps was involved.
37:03Yes.
37:04So 16 Corps machinery also gets equal credit, you know.
37:08And then the oversight by the Army Headquarter, whether it's the Chief or the DGMO.
37:13So besides the political leadership taking a bold call, it's always a team game.
37:19Army cannot, our apparatus, you know, you can't give credit to one person.
37:23True.
37:23The forwards can convert a goal only if somebody gives them a pass.
37:27Absolutely.
37:27And then also if the backs are strong and the goalkeeper holds his.
37:31Absolutely.
37:32So everything put together has created this operation which has then only been in the later years has only been
37:41expanded.
37:42So I think we owe it to everybody.
37:44We indeed do and many thanks for talking about the surgical strikes.
37:49Ten years, it's been ten years.
37:51Yes.
37:51Pakistan has been punished, but perhaps Pakistan deserves a lot more punishment.
37:56The military terror infrastructure in Pakistan.
37:59Jal Dua for joining me here on this special Chakra View podcast.
38:02Many thanks, sir.
38:04Thank you very much.
38:04Jai Hind.
38:05Jai Hind, sir.
38:06And this actually is Bharat's civilizational philosophy.
38:11It's been mentioned in the past.
38:14For example, Ramdhari Singh Dinkar in Shakti and Kshama has actually mentioned such poochot ho.
38:22Shar mein hi basti hai deepti vinay ki.
38:26Sandhi vachan sampuja usi ka jis mein shakti vijay ki.
38:31Only the brave are respected.
38:34Fortune favours the brave.
38:36This is exactly what Goswami Tulsidas has also mentioned in the Ram Charitmanas.
38:42Lord Ram, for three days, he begged the ocean god to give way.
38:48So that he could go to Lanka and bring back Maa Sita.
38:51But when the sea did not part, he pulled out his bow and arrow.
38:56And that's when the sea came.
38:59And what did Lord Ram say?
39:02What does Goswami Tulsidas say?
39:04He just says.
39:06Tien divas tak panth nahar te.
39:09Raghupat sindhu kinaare.
39:10Baithe pardtay rahe chand anunai ke piyare piyare.
39:14Uttar mein jab ek naad u'tha nahi.
39:16Sagar se.
39:18U'thi adhir dhadk paurish ki.
39:20Aag Ram ke shars se.
39:22Meri thanks u o cha.
39:24Sagar se.
39:25Sagar se.
39:27Sagar se.
39:28Sagar se.
39:29Sagar se.
39:29Sagar se.