00:07Welcome to SAM Conversation, a program of South Asia Monitor.
00:13Thank you so much, sir.
00:14Kind of you to have me on the show, sir.
00:17It is a pleasure to invite Lieutenant General Ajay Singh.
00:24Ajay Singh comes from an army family where he is the fifth generation.
00:32His father, grandfather, great-grandfather and great-great-grandfather all served in the Indian Army for 162 years.
00:46Commissioned in the 81st Armand Regiment, it's a regiment which his father raised in 1973.
00:58He is the 16th commander-in-chief of the Andaman and Nicobar Command and we won't go into the number
01:13of degrees that he has achieved before he joined the army.
01:17But I think it is significant that he is retired as the CNC of this command because it is a
01:28very major addition to India's assets.
01:32Let's get straight away with a few questions.
01:39What is the strategic importance of the islands?
01:43Sir, firstly, thank you once again, sir, for having me on your show and thinking me suitable enough to speak
01:50to your audience.
01:53The islands have a great strategic significance, sir, because they are far removed from the Indian mainland and they are
01:59close to the Arakan landmass.
02:00In fact, if I was to divide the distance between mainland India and say the Arakan landmass, which is the
02:08landmass coming down from Myanmar, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia.
02:17They are two thirds of the distance away from Indian landmass and one third of the distance from the Arakan
02:24landmass.
02:26They are about 600 kilometres, 620 kilometres from the Arakan landmass and about 1,300 kilometres from the weather from
02:33Chennai, Visraka, Patnam or Kolkata.
02:36There are 836 islands north to south, covering an expanse of roughly 750 kilometres.
02:44The significance is that one of the largest East West shipping routes, which goes down from the Straits of Malacca,
02:52passes thereafter.
02:53Once it comes out, exits from there and comes into the Andaman Sea, it passes just south of our southernmost
02:59island, north of Indonesia, between Sabang and Great Nicobar, Campbell Bay.
03:08And that distance is just about 90 nautical miles, the navigable portion.
03:13So a lot of the East West shipping traffic goes there.
03:17Like our government has repeatedly said, it's in our own interest to make sure that our international shipping lanes remain
03:24free of obstruction.
03:26And the laws of the seas, UNCLOS, are what India has ratified, unlike some other countries and UNCLOS.
03:34And we are part of the whole community of nations who look forward to an open and free passage through
03:42the global commons.
03:43So to that extent, Indian Ocean has been quite a benign ocean.
03:48There haven't been many people from outside who have traditionally come here.
03:52But everyone is naturally concerned about free passage of ships.
03:56And this is an important area.
03:58In fact, I have a slide, I think, somewhere.
04:01And I would show it to you to just show that.
04:04Then I will show you a slide, sir, that, yes, you have multiple other routes of entry in the East
04:14West passage.
04:15But each successive route which goes eastwards entails a time penalty by a few additional days and therefore also a
04:23diesel penalty.
04:23There is a shortest route and a longer route.
04:26And naturally, the route which is going from Malacca today, if you see this view foils, sir, what I've shown
04:34is this blue hashrod line.
04:36These are the territories, our island territories, 836 islands.
04:40They occupy about 26% of our coastline, a little over 2000 kilometers, and 30% of our exclusive economic
04:49zone, which is roughly 6 lakh square kilometers, which all countries are now increasingly finding that there are polymetallic nodules
04:58and other things which can be, which we have a right first right on.
05:02And our exclusive economic zone for fishing or other marine products are very important.
05:09So 30% of our EEZ is around these islands.
05:1326% of our coastline is there.
05:16And if you see, sir, the dark red lines are where there is convergence of international shipping.
05:21Convergence takes place where the passage gets restricted.
05:24Like, I'm not sure if you can see my pointer here, but you will see Strait of Hormuz, there's convergence.
05:30Babal Mandap, there's convergence.
05:32South of Cape of Goodhor, Good Hope, there is convergence.
05:35So similarly, this 6 degree channel, which is here from equator 6 degrees northwards, the Strait of Malacca shipping passage
05:45can come to the 10 degree channel, which is between the Andaman group and the Nicobar group of islands, or
05:50down to the 6 degree channel.
05:52If you want to avoid Malacca, eastwards, you can go to Sunda, Lombok, Sumbaya, Umbay and Vitar, but as a
06:00thumb rule to remember, it is three days extra of shipping ship traveling time as fast successively east as one
06:06would go.
06:07And as I mentioned in the earlier slide, I just mentioned a little earlier.
06:11If you look at this, our distance, I have put it in kilometers and nautical miles, seafarers look at nautical
06:18miles.
06:18So the first figure is in kilometers, so we are, Port Blair is 1362 kilometers from Chennai, 1224 for Vishaka,
06:28Patnam and 1302 for Kolkata, so roughly 1300.
06:32And if you look to the Arakan landmass, we are about 640 kilometers.
06:36So that is what I was speaking about the proximity on either side.
06:40And these are the two channels, if you see just south of Port Blair, there is the little Andaman.
06:45And then below that is the Nicobar group of islands.
06:49So between Carnic and little Andaman, you will see the 10 degree channel.
06:53Its total width is 138, but 75 is the navigable portion.
06:58Just like the 6 degree channel out of 166 nautical miles, only 90 nautical miles are navigable.
07:05So the entire east way shipping passes through this 90 nautical miles.
07:10And it's in our interest, as in the interest of all our international countries using these lanes, that they remain
07:16free of obstruction.
07:18To that extent, I don't see our country has no other interest other than past.
07:24I mean, I have been there a commander in chief for two years, so I can say it with conviction,
07:28even though I retired long back, that we have no interest other than protecting our interest in our 836 islands.
07:36Our coastline and our exclusive economic zone.
07:40We don't covet anyone else's territory.
07:42We don't covet anyone else's interest.
07:44But we look forward for free and open sea lanes.
07:48We look forward to commonly respected global commons.
07:51And we look forward to maintenance of all the international treaties, which have come about since the Second World War,
07:57and which are upholding the international institutions.
08:01And that's what our honorable prime minister and our external affairs ministers have also been repeatedly stressing as late as
08:08what Dr. Jay Shankar just said at the United Nations day before yesterday.
08:16That was a brilliant beginning.
08:19And, you know, it's a very good dose that you've given of, you know, the media hasn't made much of,
08:30you know, our island territory so far.
08:35They need to.
08:37Anyway, very well presented initially.
08:41Now, what are the infrastructure needs of the command in view of the unique local tribal population and military requirements?
08:54Briefly.
08:56Sir, the, as per the 2011 census, the whole population of these islands was just about four and a half
09:04lakhs.
09:05There's a 2011 census and there was a projected census for 2021.
09:11So, I mean, the demographic change has not been much and two and a half lakhs of these are at
09:16Fort Blair or in the areas around.
09:19So, I mean, I have the district wise population.
09:22But just supposing we say 2011 census, ballpark figures, three lakhs, 80,000, 581, let's say four lakhs.
09:29And out of them, the South Andaman district is two lakhs, 38,000.
09:35So, say two and a half lakhs.
09:36So, one and a half lakhs is spread out over the rest of the islands.
09:42Also, sir, when we think of people spread out in this manner, these islands are largely only 31 of the
09:51836 are occupied permanently, which have habitation.
09:55Yes, some people go, go occupy an island in some fishing months, stay there for a few days, families go,
10:01come back.
10:02But permanent habitation is only on 21 islands.
10:06There are 691 in the Andaman group.
10:10Out of these 691, only 21 are permanently habited.
10:16And out of the 145 islands of the Nicobar group, only 10 are permanently habited.
10:23But when we look at this figure, if you look at an island in more than one square kilometer, there
10:31are only 93 such islands.
10:35And if we say that of these 93 such islands, 31 are only inhabited.
10:41So, roughly 60-odd islands, more than one square kilometer, are the ones which are not inhabited.
10:49And there are 743, 750-odd islands, maybe they are rocky outcrops between a kilometer and a few hundred square
10:59meters, which are totally uninhabited.
11:02So, the Andaman and Nicobar command is being charged.
11:07It was set up on 8th October.
11:09It celebrates the Silver Jubilee after a few days on 2001, 8th October.
11:14And one of our most strategic and eminent, I would say strategic authors, those with great strategic foresight, Dr. Subramanya.
11:27And it's a matter of interest, he's our present foreign minister's late father.
11:32He had done the Kargil Review Committee study.
11:36And on his recommendations, the group of ministers picked it up and tabled their report in parliament.
11:42And on the recommendations of the Kargil Review Committee and the group of ministers, Andaman Nicobar command was set up
11:49as our first and so far only integrated theatre command.
11:52It's an integrated theatre command of the Army, the Navy, the Air Force and the Coast Guard.
11:57And as far back as in its raising directive, it's said that this integrated theatre command will come under the
12:08chiefs of staff committee, will come under the CDS to be appointed.
12:12And till a CDS is appointed, it will function in an interim manner under the chiefs of staff committee.
12:18So I think the document, which was our raising document, which was the Kargil Review Committee report, had great foresight
12:2726 years ago.
12:29So we were set up as a result of that document.
12:33And in appointing the CDS in December 2019, the Honorable Prime Minister in the Charter said, please integrate other commands
12:44of India in a manner akin to Andaman and Nicobar command.
12:49So having said this as a prelude, I would like to bring out in a small slide that when you
12:54say, sir, what does your command want or what does it have?
12:57I would like to say, sir, there's nothing we want separately.
13:01Out of those large number of people, this slide shows how many of our people are from which part of
13:08the island.
13:09And when people talk of tribals, I wonder, can you see this slide, sir?
13:14I wanted to show you that when people talk of the islanders, out of 3.8 lakh population, in the
13:23north and in the Andaman group, 380 are Jaravas.
13:26The great Andamanese are only 44.
13:30Sentinelese who inhabit the Sentinel Island, which I've shown separately, there are only 15 of them as per the census.
13:37And the Onji's are 101.
13:39So if you see, sir, I've divided this in two parts.
13:42On the left is the Andaman group of islands.
13:44I told you there are 691 of them.
13:47In these 691 islands, only 21 of which are inhabited.
13:52In the North Sentinel Island, no one is permitted to go.
13:55That island, you can, aeroplanes also cannot overfly it.
13:59And our government has made sure that the 15 Sentinelese who inhabit this are left in their habitat.
14:09In the rest of this North Andaman group of islands, which is north, central and south Andaman, the Charava are
14:15380.
14:16A large number have got assimilated into society.
14:19Yet they have been given their own habitat.
14:22Their habitat is roughly half the size of the Delhi NCR for 380 of them.
14:29The great Andamanese, 44 of them only.
14:33They are in north and central Andaman in this area pointed out.
14:36And the Onji's are about 101 of them.
14:39They are little Andaman as shown here.
14:42When you look at the Nankori group, sir, or the Nicobar Islands and the Nankori group of islands.
14:48There are 27,000 other Nicobaris, sir.
14:52But they are fairly well educated.
14:54They are nearly all Christians.
14:56Many of our missionaries have done very good service there.
15:00And they are very much part of the mainstream development.
15:05I would like to share, I just did some research.
15:09In 2018, when India started doing well in international cycling competitions,
15:14one of those who represented India was a person called Esko Alban.
15:18He was a 19-year-old track cyclist and the first Indian to win a medal at the Cycling World
15:24Championship.
15:25He belongs to this Nicobaris tribe.
15:28They are so well assimilated.
15:30Wow.
15:30Then in 2015, there was someone called Deborah Helen.
15:35Deborah Herald.
15:37She was the first Indian to make UCI ranking.
15:40This girl was from the Nicobaris tribe, from the Car Nicobar Island, both of them.
15:45Great.
15:46Then in March of this year, 2026, when the Asian Track Cycling Championship took place at the Philippines, and the
15:54few people who were part of the Indian team, two of them were from the great Nicobar Island.
16:00There was David Beckham, El Tov Chongo and Celestina.
16:05Both of them were part of the few people who represented the Indian team.
16:09And I'm giving these statistics because a lot of people seem to think that being tribal means to say that
16:15you may not be part of the mainstream.
16:17The Nicobaris were a large majority of the Nicobar Islands are very much part of mainstream India.
16:25They are proud people.
16:27They also maintain their tribal culture and their tribal heritage.
16:31They are fairly well educated more than most other states in India.
16:35So when we speak of tribals of this area, we must be cognizant of this aspect, sir.
16:41And the only other group which is there in the South Andaman because or in the Nicobar group of islands
16:46are the Shompen.
16:48As for the last census, they were 229.
16:52And the figure was projected to be 231 in 2021 census, which hasn't taken place.
16:59So and they are occupying a habitat bigger than Singapore, 920 square kilometers.
17:05So I will come to the development of the transshipment port at the southernmost part on the southernmost island, the
17:11Great Nicobar Island.
17:12But whenever people talk of this, I feel sometimes that maybe they are not fully cognizant of the spaces in
17:19the areas we are looking at and the actual habitation.
17:22And it's the density is only 46 square lakh kilometers.
17:26So far as the North Andaman islands are concerned or the North Andaman group of this archipelago, which is the
17:31Andaman group of islands, you will see, sir, to the north there's Diglipur.
17:37Then southmost is Port Blair and there's the little Andaman I said.
17:42So there is a Andaman trunk route running north to south and the extent is 360 kilometers.
17:48There is an airport at Diglipur. There is an airport at Port Blair.
17:54There is a port at Port Blair. There's a port at Diglipur and a port at Rangat and smaller.
18:00These were a group of islands, actually.
18:03If you see, sir, Austin Bridge has now come up.
18:07Otherwise, there were jetties where you got off your car, got into a.
18:11You took a lift across the jetty or a straight and then you continued on the road passage.
18:16So the country has put in a lot of effort, resources just to make sure that there is north to
18:23south connectivity in a larger extent.
18:26And similarly, for the Nicobar group, they are widely dispersed islands.
18:30I mentioned in the Nicobar group, there are just 145 of them, only 10 of which are habited.
18:36So at Car Nicobar, there's a big airport, two, three jetties.
18:41This is where we have an air force station also. Everyone's aware of it.
18:44And the great Nicobar Island, the southernmost one.
18:49And I mentioned that this north-south extent itself is about 750 kilometers.
18:54So you see 320 kilometers is the classical north-south extent to the south of the southernmost island is the
19:01six degree channel and to the north is the 10 degree channel, which we had spoken of earlier.
19:06So if I was to say north to south, then we have the airport of Diglipur.
19:11We have the airport of Port Blair.
19:12We have the airport of Car Nicobar and we have the airport of Great Nicobar, Campbell Bay.
19:17So we have four airports north to south.
19:20There are four major ports. Similarly, there are more larger number of smaller ports because a port is essential or
19:27a jetty is essential for making sure we can look after our tribal population.
19:31They all need supplies, medical evacuation and such like.
19:34And the government is doing whatever needs to be done to bring the fruits of development and also make sure
19:41that tribal interests and their habitat remains preserved.
19:45So I think I think that's all I would like to say at this stage. I'd be happy to answer
19:49any questions.
19:50I'm going to leave this slide here, sir, because in a large extent it covers the 10 degree channel, the
19:576 degree channel, a proposed Krah channel channel like the Panama Canal, which had been proposed over 500 years.
20:03It's never seen the light of day, but there are very, very many people over these centuries who have proposed
20:10the canal over the estimates of Krah and the Malacca Strait. Singapore is here between Singapore and Malaysia.
20:18This is the Hainan Island of China, South China Sea. So all the East West shipping comes to Malacca. And
20:24if it were not to come to Malacca, as I said, it will have to go to either Sunda, Lombok,
20:28Sumba, Mumbai or Vita.
20:32So now I'd be happy to answer any questions.
20:36Thank you very, very much because you preempted so many, you know, which I would have asked. Thank you.
20:46Thank you for this very exhaustive, you know, presentation of yours of so many aspects and, you know, it's not
21:01surprising. My one observation is that I'll say thank God that the islands are care of India.
21:13Because we have in our colonial, you know, world's colonial past. Look at the state of, let's say, take the
21:22continent of Africa. Look at this. The way they were exploited, they're still paying for it.
21:30Anyway, what you're saying is very right. When we became independent, I mean, hats off to the leaders and those
21:39who are part of our freedom struggle. There was endeavour by Britain to retain these islands.
21:43Yes, yes.
21:44And as per the independence of India act, but with the foresight, our founders said that no, Kalapani was here.
21:53This is where you were imprisoning all the Indian freedom fighters.
21:55Absolutely, absolutely. Yes.
21:57This has a major association with the soul of our or the birth of our nation. Yes. And therefore, therefore,
22:04that time Prime Minister Nehru said that time before he was part of the freedom fighters at those stage and
22:10the intercollator, the person with whom negotiations were taking place.
22:14And he had put his foot down that, look, we will not permit these islands to remain with Britain. Pakistan,
22:21Jinnah wanted these islands. The argument they gave was this will be connected between between East and West Pakistan, but
22:26it is well south of that area.
22:28So that argument didn't pass muster. And we are fortunate that it is now with us. In the granting of
22:35independence to Myanmar, some islands did exchange hands. The Koko Islands, which are now with Myanmar, were with India.
22:42The Propelis Channel is the one 18 degree channel which separates East Island, another most island and the Koko Island.
22:50So some exchange did take place when Myanmar became independent, but they remained with us.
22:55And I think that was great strategic foresight and insistence by our freedom fighters.
23:02And all this is very important because we have had enough of, you know, there is no dearth of elements
23:12within India who have been raising all kinds of environmental and related questions.
23:20You know, you know, that we are such a, the army will be such a, you know, danger to, the
23:26army isn't, they, they, they, they, they prefer not to, or they don't, they don't know that the army is
23:33always, the Indian army has been a great preserver of the environment.
23:40Anyway, and of late, we have had even objections from, from the United Nations, if you please, of developing the
23:58Nicobar for the great Nicobar project, which is something which we, which is a major need of ours for transshipment.
24:07Sir, I would like to make a small correction there, sir.
24:11Please.
24:11There is no objection to the United Nations.
24:14If the Supreme Court, if the Supreme Court gives an impart committee to look into forests,
24:20then that committee is a committee which is an advisory committee to the Supreme Court, that committee doesn't become the
24:26Supreme Court.
24:28Similarly, similarly, a UN Committee on Elimination of Racial Discrimination, which goes by the acronym of CERD, doesn't become the
24:38United Nations.
24:39That committee, incidentally, is chaired by a Chinese and its other member is a Ukrainian.
24:46So, other than being a committee, I think we are better placed to look after our own tribal population.
24:52And our government has rightly pointed out that this recommendation of a committee whose constituents itself seem to be politically
25:03motivated or have an agenda.
25:05This committee is politically motivated.
25:07Its objections are highly malicious.
25:09And it is based on sweeping.
25:11And the word is sweeping generalization and unsubstantiated allegations.
25:16So, I would not lay much credence to it.
25:18This is all smoke.
25:20I think we are better in power to speak for ourselves.
25:23I have written a few articles also.
25:25So, the last one I wrote, I think, in the Outlook magazine, the July 6th edition.
25:30And I brought out two things.
25:33That this great Nicobar Island, which people are objecting about, this great Nicobar Island, which people are objecting about, this
25:42is development by us for our people.
25:44For everyone who says about trees, we have over 98% as per forest survey.
25:51And don't please look at it at partisan lines.
25:54This survey was even published in the UPA tenure.
25:56So, it's not about UPA in India.
25:58It's about India.
26:00And in our country, if our tree cover in these islands is over 98%, which is not there in any
26:07other state in India, including our East Indian states.
26:10And that tree cover reduces by 0.5% for the fruits of development.
26:17I don't think people should be worried.
26:19Because if your heart as an international outside India or an Indian is beating for this, then I didn't see
26:25your heart beating when this Andaman trunk road came up.
26:28And the habitat of the great Andamanese or the Nicobari or the Onjis or the Jarawas were affected when this
26:36road came up and we got a through passage of the Andaman trunk road of 240 kilometers.
26:42I did not see anyone crying when New York Harbor was made and so many trees were cut.
26:46But I didn't see anyone crying when Singapore, the first president made Singapore what it is today.
26:53There is a cost of development.
26:54All governments are chartered to provide for their people.
26:58The fruits of development and growth because everyone aspires for jobs.
27:03We are aware this is cyclic.
27:05You have to create jobs.
27:06You have to create development.
27:07You have to create growth.
27:08Better medical facilities.
27:10Better transportation facilities to other islands in the region.
27:13And today, on the main transshipment port line, you have big containers, ships who have thousands of tons of TEU,
27:22the big container equivalent.
27:25So those have to have bulk braking.
27:28You're a military man, sir.
27:29Bulk braking is when you break down smaller pallets.
27:31So we are paying roughly $680 million a year to other countries who are doing bulk braking to come to
27:39our smaller ports for our smaller east-west cargo coming out of these transshipment ports.
27:44It may be going to Klang.
27:46It may be going to Singapore.
27:47It may be going to Colombo.
27:49So for our own transshipment, if you are making a transshipment port, which is leaving largely untouched more than 900
27:57square kilometers of habitat for those 231 people.
28:00Sir, it is like saying that in the NCR of Delhi, you leave two-thirds of the area of Delhi
28:07available for 230 people.
28:11The smallest of colony of Delhi will have more than 230 people.
28:15So, and we have a territorial army battalion, sir, where some people speak the Shompan language.
28:22They're a peace-loving people.
28:26There's an east-west road.
28:29On the east-west road, we did not even let development take place, 42-kilometer road going to Copenhagen.
28:36We stopped the road construction after a certain stage halfway.
28:39There is a bus stand there with no passengers.
28:42A bus goes and comes back.
28:44Anytime the Shompan people want medical treatment, they come on the bus.
28:48There are some seats here, like ladies' seats.
28:50No one sits on them.
28:51And the islanders, there are only about 10,000 of them.
28:53They are very well disciplined.
28:56Large number of them were ex-servicemen inducted there after 65 and 71.
29:01You have more Gurdwaras per square meter there than you have in many other places in India.
29:06But 10,000 people, sir.
29:09We have to look at 8,500 people roughly because some are in the islands.
29:14Those 8,500 people, their growth and development has to be catered for.
29:17Some of the mover ex-servicemen would tell me when I would go there that,
29:32Isn't our government charged with providing job opportunities for those people also?
29:39So if their government is doing some development,
29:41I don't think it should be looked as an all or nothing prison.
29:44And the Supreme Court has looked into it.
29:46We have had adequate committees and we have had proper sanctions given over many years.
29:54So to that extent, to say that this is against tribal rights and without consideration,
29:59and for a UN committee, I would not even read it twice.
30:04General Ajay, I will thank you very much for everything that you have come out with.
30:11In fact, I think one would request for another SAM conversation
30:17because there are still some very interesting aspects and it's fascinating.
30:23The visuals of the island that you showed are fascinating.
30:29Thank you very much and all the best to you.
30:32Thank you, sir.
30:33Thank you for having me, sir.
30:34Pleasure speaking with you.
30:36Thank you, sir.
30:37Thank you, sir.
