- 9 hours ago
John and Shelby examine discipleship, spiritual authority, and the concept of spiritual covering within Youth With A Mission. Shelby draws from her 18 years in YWAM to describe DTS culture, confession, blurred boundaries between leaders and students, expectations of submission, hearing God's voice, and the pressure young participants can experience when leaders believe their guidance carries spiritual authority.
They also explore historical connections involving Ern Baxter, the shepherding movement, and YWAM leadership, asking how ideas about submission and discipleship may have influenced later practices. Shelby discusses being labeled teachable or difficult, leaders influencing education and ministry decisions, recruitment after DTS, the sunk-cost effect of remaining in the organization, and the challenges young adults face when distinguishing personal conviction from a leader's claimed spiritual guidance.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
05:44 Blurred Boundaries, Confession, and Group Pressure
10:35 Spiritual Authority and the Shepherding Connection
17:09 Prophetic Authority and Competing Theologies
28:05 How Discipleship Can Shape a Young Person’s Future
34:14 Confession, Power, and Untrained Young Leaders
40:16 Shepherding Influence and Spiritual Mediation
45:00 What Happens When Someone Is “Unteachable”?
49:32 Sunk Costs, Recruitment, and the Difficulty of Leaving
54:22 Critical Thinking and Final Reflections
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
They also explore historical connections involving Ern Baxter, the shepherding movement, and YWAM leadership, asking how ideas about submission and discipleship may have influenced later practices. Shelby discusses being labeled teachable or difficult, leaders influencing education and ministry decisions, recruitment after DTS, the sunk-cost effect of remaining in the organization, and the challenges young adults face when distinguishing personal conviction from a leader's claimed spiritual guidance.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
05:44 Blurred Boundaries, Confession, and Group Pressure
10:35 Spiritual Authority and the Shepherding Connection
17:09 Prophetic Authority and Competing Theologies
28:05 How Discipleship Can Shape a Young Person’s Future
34:14 Confession, Power, and Untrained Young Leaders
40:16 Shepherding Influence and Spiritual Mediation
45:00 What Happens When Someone Is “Unteachable”?
49:32 Sunk Costs, Recruitment, and the Difficulty of Leaving
54:22 Critical Thinking and Final Reflections
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
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LearningTranscript
00:31Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.
00:42And with me, I have my co-host and friend, Shelby Hoffer, former member of YWAM.
00:47Shelby, it's good to have you on and to talk about this subject that I'm going to catch you off
00:52guard a little bit because I want to see some surprise in your face.
00:55So William Branham had many campaign managers as he changed his stage persona from time to time to time.
01:02And one of those was Ern Baxter.
01:04Ern Baxter, one of the Fort Lauderdale Five of the shepherding movement.
01:08In a previous podcast with Jenny, I went through some of that history.
01:12I wanted to talk to you today based off of your experience with Youth with a Mission about discipleship, because
01:21for me, this is critically important when you think of discipleship as it relates to the youth.
01:26For those who are unaware, the shepherding movement was this discipleship program that was really structured like an authoritarian pyramid.
01:35You had shepherds shepherding the shepherds, and then those people would go all the way down to the rank and
01:41file member.
01:42And people were submitting full authority to these people who were there.
01:47I hate to use the word, but it was overlords.
01:50They had overlords.
01:52And so I'm trying to picture a world where that is safe for children to be in that type of
01:56environment, youth, and especially in the moldable years up until about the mid-20s, how that would impact them.
02:04Because what happened in the United States is it got exposed as very destructive, and this turned into a mess
02:11that John Wember and a few others tried to unravel and bring the charismatic movement back into unity, but it
02:20really didn't quite work because it was so destructive.
02:23But I want to know from the perspective of Youth with a Mission, how did shepherding impact that movement?
02:30So thank you for coming on.
02:31Let's talk about shepherding and discipleship.
02:34Yeah, thanks for having me.
02:36It's good to be back.
02:37Yes, shepherding and discipleship.
02:40I don't know many specifics about the shepherding movement itself.
02:44It's not something I've done a lot of research on specifically, nor Earn Baxter as an individual.
02:50But from even just that brief description, that sounds very familiar in terms of how the sort of YWAM hierarchy
03:00and system is set up, especially in terms of, like you said, if you want to talk about discipleship.
03:07Like what does it mean to disciple others, to disciple young people into leadership positions, to offer discipleship programs, that's
03:18sort of the base and the foundation of the entry point into YWAM is their discipleship training school where they
03:24promise that they will disciple you and train you to be a missionary.
03:27So it sounds really interesting and very familiar to what you're describing there.
03:34I figured it would be a little bit familiar.
03:36I'm looking specifically, I want to talk about the intensity of the environment.
03:41So we have attacked the research on the shepherding movement from multiple angles, because ultimately that was the framework for
03:50setting up what became the New Apostolic Reformation.
03:53Honestly, there's so many different building blocks of theology and, quite frankly, bad theology, that the New Apostolic Reformation was
04:03built upon.
04:04One of those building blocks was definitely the shepherding movement.
04:06And if you pull that building block out, you take away the authoritarian control.
04:10You take away parts of the fivefold ministry that apply to the rank and file members.
04:15There's a lot that you, the spiritual covering, all of that kind of goes away if you take away this
04:20discipleship shepherding thing.
04:22But in youth with a mission, it's quite different because everybody's living together, worshiping together, studying together, and they travel
04:32to these bases where there's almost no separation between, I guess you would say, spiritual life, work life, and leadership.
04:40So those become intertwined in such a way that a person who is involved in this, it makes it feel
04:49quite different.
04:49It starts to feel almost like a family unit where the fatherly figure, the motherly figure, whoever's the one that
04:58the youth is picturing as their family unit, they start to feel like it's a father to them, this shepherd.
05:05And psychologically speaking, this starts to break down barriers that should continue to exist, even if you're a youth on
05:12a mission.
05:12But when those barriers disappear because of discipleship, it starts to introduce things that just simply are out of their
05:21control as members of the group.
05:23So I wanted to attack it from an emotional standpoint, not really a historical standpoint.
05:29What was shepherding, what was discipleship like in the movement?
05:33Did they follow the normal patterns that you would see on other missions that involve youth?
05:40Or was it that close unity like I am describing?
05:44Well, I think that's a lovely can of worms to open up.
05:48So that's fun.
05:51I would say there's many aspects to that, right?
05:57And as per usual, of course, you're going to have maybe slightly different experiences at different YWAM bases.
06:05I would say, again, from my 18 years in YWAM and my worldwide YWAM experience, all of the countries that
06:13I spent time in and all of the bases that I had lived at over those 18 years, plus, you
06:19know, the higher leadership positions that I was in.
06:22I have definitely seen this idea that ministry is life, life is ministry, that there are no boundaries, but it's
06:34not encouraged to have sort of personal boundaries, right?
06:37And so that's where you see a lot of spiritual abuse happen, emotional, psychological abuse, all the way into sexual
06:46abuse, because there are so many blurred lines often.
06:52And especially when you come in, I think, very young, and you are straight away into this DTS, you're very
06:59young, and there is like this trauma bonding that happens where you are strongly encouraged to share your deepest, darkest,
07:10to sort of create some sort of horrific testimony, or to share all of the things that have happened to
07:16you in the past, or any sins that you've had, or anything like that.
07:19This sort of confession moment. And when you do that with people that you don't know, plus, there's the pressure
07:26of doing that. There's the pressure of performing. If you say, you know what, I don't know these people. I
07:32think I'm just going to sit quietly back here. You know, this can be between me and God. People will
07:36often then approach you and say like, hey, like, what's going on? You know, you're not sharing. And it's like,
07:42you know, I just met you guys. I don't really, I don't really know. I'm not ready to share, you
07:46know, those sorts of things.
07:47And then it's like, you have a spirit, you know, you have a spirit that doesn't want to come out.
07:51And so that spirit is trying to keep you silent. And all sorts of exorcism is trying to happen. And
07:56they're praying for you so that you can share. So there's an immense sort of mob mentality or group pressure
08:02that comes in those moments, right?
08:03So there's the trauma bonding that happens. There's the like you said, you're living in extremely close quarters, 24 seven,
08:12your leader is, you know, maybe the same age as you sometimes even younger than you, they maybe have less
08:20life experience than you, but they're over you. But then also they're like, fun and funny, and you're hanging out,
08:26maybe sometimes in the evenings or the weekends, some places you're living together with your staff or your leader.
08:32So all of those lines blur to become this sort of pot that you're stewing in, in terms of this
08:43is my leader, but this is my friend or this is my confidant and how to sort of try to
08:48separate that out.
08:49You're not encouraged. Plus, either explicitly or implicitly, you are cut off or gently, slowly cut off from your outside
08:58support system. So you don't have a lot of people sort of speaking into that space for you to say,
09:04hey, I haven't heard from you in months.
09:08You know, I'm worried about you. Can we talk? Because, you know, you're kept very busy and everything. So just
09:15in terms of yes, discipleship, then often you said, as you said, the family language is used to create a
09:22sense of identity and a sense of intimacy that is often completely unearned.
09:29And when you're going in and you're thinking these leaders, they've been in YMAM longer than me, they must know
09:35God more than me.
09:36And we've talked about this on previous episodes in terms of hearing God's voice or laying down your rights and
09:42sort of that submission to authority.
09:44So you have all of that that sort of is ingredients to to make this situation where you're extremely susceptible
09:53to needing to maintain those relationships at any cost, because if you stop submitting or if you leave that in
10:04some way or you upset the status quo, then there's a price for you to pay.
10:08And just as a point of note, you know, when you talked about that spiritual, you know, where your spiritual
10:15mother or father, you know, sort of things, that is one of the signs of spiritual abuse listed in the
10:21book, Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse by Dr. Lisa Oakley and Justin Humphries, which is someone taking a divine
10:28position in your life.
10:29And anytime someone is trying to take a divine position in your life, that is definitely a red flag.
10:35Absolutely. And what I've been able to tell and piecing all of this together, and this is research that's really
10:42in its early phases.
10:43So I don't want to go too far without saying something out of line.
10:46But from what I can tell, the problem really existed with the networking aspect of what became the New Apostolic
10:54Reformation.
10:55It exists because you have all of these apostolic networks.
10:58Ernst Baxter was obviously in one of those as leader, as one of the leaders of the shepherding movement.
11:03There was a period of time that he was easily accepted when he would go to other apostolic networks.
11:10And from what I can piece together, I think it's around 1970 or 19, I think it's 1970, he starts
11:18going to these conventions.
11:19In fact, I've got one pulled up here.
11:21He's with Reverend Dean Sherman, the director of Youth with a Mission, apparently in Canada.
11:27And they're holding revival meetings in the Christian Faith Center.
11:31I'll throw the article here up on the screen so people can see it.
11:34But what happened is he's being networked, and he's being networked as an expert in shepherding, because that's what he
11:41was selling.
11:42That was the brand of apostolic network that he was selling.
11:45So his words on what discipleship meant would have carried weight.
11:50That's the point I'm trying to make.
11:52And the weight is being carried with people who are in director-level positions, not just rank and file.
11:58So that alters what I would perceive would be the discipleship program within Youth with a Mission.
12:06If this is the person who they're bringing in as the expert, then the question becomes, were the leaders simply
12:11giving advice, or were they being trained that their advice carried spiritual weight?
12:17That is the significant difference between what the shepherding movement brought and what you would see if you sent your
12:23youth to, say, a mainstream denominational camp.
12:27They may give you advice that might be healthy advice, training for all sorts of things that they might experience
12:34in their life.
12:34And it would be normal training.
12:36If you do these good things, you will have good fruit.
12:39If you do these bad things, you will have bad fruit.
12:41That kind of advice.
12:42But in the shepherding movement, it was different.
12:44The advice carried spiritual weight, and it was all surrounded by the concept of angels and demons in the back
12:50of your mind.
12:51So whenever that aspect comes in, the one who is presenting usually is seen as a supernatural authority, no matter
12:59what their age.
13:01Yes, 100%.
13:03Dean Sherman.
13:04Oh, Dean Sherman.
13:05You know, what's interesting, first, about the networking aspect, as you mentioned, is you do find a lot of overlap
13:12in these movements.
13:13The Word of Faith and the latter rain, and, you know, obviously, now the shepherding movement, Keith Green's Last Days
13:20Ministries.
13:21Like, all of these people were connected to each other.
13:24So it wasn't just sort of this amorphous influence that eventually sort of, you know, reached each other.
13:31They were all in the rooms with each other together.
13:35And I remember in some of the research I was doing, came across someone who had been working with Mike
13:41Bickle at IHOP KC.
13:42And when they had started IHOP KC, they were like, everyone has to, you know, we need to pay people,
13:48like, to come and be staffed with us.
13:50And then when Mike Bickle talked to Lauren Cunningham about how YWAM does their situation, you know, everybody raises their
13:56own money.
13:56YWAM doesn't pay anybody, and that's how they have so many people coming, is because they don't have to pay
14:02anybody.
14:03Everybody just raises their own money.
14:05And that's when Mike Bickle was like, oh, fearless, like, we're going to do that.
14:09And that's when they changed the process.
14:12So it's just, it's really interesting to see how they all, yeah, are connected.
14:17And what you said about the difference in the shepherding movement being that what a spiritual, you know, leader said
14:24carried that spiritual authority, that spiritual weight versus just some sort of general advice or general wisdom that you might
14:32receive in a more healthy sort of organizational setting.
14:38That is absolutely something that is very foundational to YWAM.
14:45And you hear that when YWAMers talk about the YWAM DNA, right?
14:49Like, you have to have a certain amount of the YWAM DNA.
14:51That means you have to have been there for a certain amount of time.
14:55But also, it's not just about time spent.
14:57It is about the sorts of people that you know and what those leaders, that top leaders have said about
15:06you.
15:08And what sort of authority they've given you.
15:10So for myself, in my own story, when I left staff at the base that I was at here in
15:19Switzerland, I was having a meeting with the three leaders, you know, the main leaders.
15:23They had a leadership team.
15:25But as I said, you know, I am leaving staff here, but I'm still part of YWAM.
15:30You know, I'm waiting for God to open up a door to see what God wants me to do.
15:34But I'm still a missionary.
15:35I'm still part of YWAM.
15:36And one of the leaders said, oh, I'm really scared for you.
15:41And I said, oh, why?
15:44And they said, well, because you don't have any spiritual covering.
15:49If you're just out there in, you know, you're saying you're a YWAM or you're saying a missionary, but you
15:53don't have any spiritual covering.
15:54And I've seen this happen to so many people who leave YWAM or they leave the base and they go
16:01into ministry, but they don't have spiritual covering.
16:03And just such bad things happen.
16:06And I'm just really concerned for you.
16:08And I was like, but Jesus, is my covering?
16:12Like, I think I'm okay.
16:14It was such a fascinating thing to hear so directly.
16:17And I will say that's not simply my experience.
16:21There are thousands of people out there that could attest to that level of it's never just advice coming from
16:28a YWAM leader or it's very rarely ever just going to be simply advice or wisdom coming from a YWAM
16:35leader.
16:36Because you are taught that the YWAM leader carries a spiritual authority.
16:42They are your spiritual covering.
16:45And so if you're not paying attention to what they're saying to you, there could be dire spiritual consequences.
16:53Again, that's another red flag of spiritual abuse is threats of spiritual consequences.
16:58So it's really strong in terms of you get into the DTS and you begin to learn those lessons straight
17:05away.
17:06That you have to listen to the leaders or else.
17:09And it's really interesting how all of that developed.
17:12I started talking to people who were affected by the New Apostolic Reformation, most of whom thought this was something
17:20new, that this just exploded into this new spiritual covering thing and why did we do it?
17:24And I'm thinking through the history thinking, oh my gosh, I can't believe that this little tiny snowball went down
17:32the hill and it grew into what it did.
17:35Whenever Ern Baxter was with William Branham, we would have never considered Ern Baxter to be a prophet.
17:42Ern Baxter was presenting Branham as the prophet.
17:45And what's interesting about that is we have uncovered so many things that were completely false with what Branham said
17:52about his own prophecies that Ern Baxter would have without question known about.
17:58So he's presenting a false prophet who's presenting the stage act that the stage act is entirely false.
18:05And Baxter himself, after William Branham died, William Branham's publicist, Lee Vale, said that he didn't even know why Baxter
18:13was involved with the ministry.
18:14Because they would go on a mission overseas and, for example, when they went into India, the people in India
18:20said, is it right for this minister to have our women?
18:24And he was drunken.
18:27And according to William Branham's publicist, all of this stuff was going on with Baxter, which I can't prove.
18:33I wasn't there.
18:34But that is what the publicist said.
18:35And that's what apparently he heard from Branham, if his story is true.
18:40But Baxter, after Branham died, because of his association with Branham, he rose up into this position of leadership where
18:48he's advertised like this.
18:50I pulled up a, what is this?
18:52This is a 1989 advertisement for Baxter's ministry.
18:56Arne Baxter has spoken to crowds of up to 200,000 people and has been a major leader in the
19:02charismatic movement and brings a powerful prophetic message.
19:06And I want to hone in on that word prophetic in his prophetic message.
19:11In the Branhamite type religion, it isn't just that you're preaching and you have something that is coming that you
19:19believe is inspired by God to say.
19:22It's that the words are actually prophetic in the speech.
19:24In other words, whether I'm declaring it as a prophecy or not, every word that I say to you is
19:30prophetic.
19:31That's the type of mentality that Branham had.
19:35And fast forward after his death, I was in ministries where the preacher was the authority.
19:41He was the king of your domain.
19:42And whenever he preached, he would say, I have a message from God.
19:45And he would say it, none of it prophetic.
19:48Some of it filled with hate.
19:50Some of it just clearly did not come from God.
19:52But that's how Baxter was presenting himself.
19:55And these are the years long after he would have been at the working with the people with YWAM.
20:01And so unless he continued working with the people from YWAM.
20:05So he's coming into the bases with a prophetic message.
20:09And this prophetic message is you must submit to your authorities.
20:12You must be discipled.
20:14And how would a person who's in their teens to 20s perceive that type of mentality?
20:22This is coming from the leadership.
20:23They're introducing this person.
20:25Well, that must be the way that Christianity is structured.
20:28So here's where the problem gets big for me.
20:31It actually changes the nature of Christianity for those on the base.
20:35Absolutely.
20:37As I am studying theology right now, I have the privilege to study theology right now at a master's level.
20:45And it is absolutely bonkers to me that I am discovering essentially other branches of Christianity.
20:53That there is other ways to think about God, to think about something like submission to authority or all of
21:04the things, right?
21:05Like it's incredible work.
21:07It's exhausting work.
21:08You know, it's deconstruction and reconstruction, reconstructing my faith.
21:13But it's because it was so deeply ingrained in us that this is the only way to think about God.
21:21This is the only way to think about, you know, spiritual warfare.
21:25This is the only way to think about submission and authority and missions and relationships and, you know, all of
21:32this sort of stuff.
21:34And anybody who thinks outside of that is less than, you know, so sometimes that was very explicit.
21:40And sometimes it was incredibly implicit, you know, it's that we're going to make you into sort of the best
21:47Christian that we can, that you can be.
21:51And I was just reading a thing online about Circuit Riders, which is this part of YWAM.
21:58And it's now, I think, left with fire and fragrance, which is sort of separated from YWAM because they got
22:02a little too crazy for YWAM, which is a big deal.
22:07But it's this whole idea of we can make you into a super Christian.
22:13And I just, it's been absolutely incredible to discover that there's something outside of that.
22:21Because for 18 years, that's what I was told was truth.
22:28God's honest truth, no matter what.
22:31And if you went outside of that, if you questioned it, you had a spirit of rebellion, you had a
22:35spirit of accusation, you had a spirit of independence, you know, all of this sort of stuff.
22:42Absolutely.
22:43And ironically, that was the next question that I had in my list to ask you, is hearing God the
22:48final word from these guys?
22:50Because when they present themselves as having a prophetic message, you can't read that any other way.
22:55Whatever they say came from God, it's a prophetic message.
22:59But here's a bigger problem that not many people really think about.
23:04When somebody's in this network and they come with this prophetic message, their side of the network may not actually
23:12theologically agree with your side.
23:13And youth with a mission, I doubt they would have ever believed that God was sending an end-time messenger
23:20who would be coming in the spirit of Elijah to deliver the world from evil in the last days and
23:25take everybody away in the rapture.
23:27But that was the messenger that Ernst Baxter was proclaiming in Branham.
23:31So when he was teaching like this, he was hand-in-hand with Branham and was pushing this agenda.
23:37Fast forward to youth with a mission, now you have these two theologies that are quite incompatible, but yet it's
23:44also a message from God.
23:46And how do you reconcile this?
23:48I experienced this to a limited extent because my family moved from coast to coast.
23:53We live from Arizona to South Carolina, everywhere in between, going to different sects within Branhamism.
23:59Branhamism, like Pentecostalism, is this tree that produces never-ending branches.
24:04Because people have a disagreement, a schism, and a new sect is formed.
24:08It just continues over and over.
24:10So I'd go to one sect, and I would hear them preaching against the other sect.
24:14And then we would move to another sect, and they're preaching against both of those.
24:18And yet we're being taught that this is the message.
24:22This is the word of the hour.
24:23These are the things we should hear.
24:25And each one of these are playing their favorite quotes from either the Bible or Branham that's disagreeing with these
24:31other people.
24:31So I'm getting this message of confusion.
24:35And in the end, whenever I left, I started to read the passages in the Bible that said God is
24:40not the author of confusion.
24:42So how could this be a prophetic message from God?
24:45So hearing from God as the authority, the final word, has a severe problem when you're in a group that
24:52is networking with different types of theologies.
24:54Well, and for all of YWAM's decentralization, they certainly try to, you know, as we've mentioned in previous episodes, sort
25:04of have one group of people making the cake mix, you know, sort of saying, okay, we need to diffuse
25:10this out to our leaders.
25:13I think right now, actually, they're having another global leadership gathering, which is like, you know, the top 700, 800
25:19leaders in YWAM in the world.
25:21And this is where a lot of this theology and this understanding gets diffused.
25:25So it could be that over here, they've gone a bit, you know, this direction and over here, they've gone
25:30a bit this direction.
25:31But when they come together, either in regional conferences or in a global conference like this, this is where it's
25:38sort of re-suffused and sort of the lore is told again and, you know, the trying to be apostolic
25:44and visionary, you know, for the future and what new things is God going to do and all of this
25:50sort of stuff.
25:50So I think in some ways, they're able to, in some ways, do make some effort to control or to,
26:00you know, keep the message, a similar message.
26:05And that's what they try to do through their foundational values and their core beliefs and things like that, which,
26:10of course, are always being interpreted differently from place to place.
26:14But that's also, I think, one of the challenges about YWAM is that it becomes an echo chamber.
26:21So all of the speakers, most of the speakers are from YWAM themselves.
26:25The books you read are from YWAM and, you know, authors.
26:29I've got two here from Dean Sherman.
26:31One is Spiritual Warfare for Every Christian, How to Live in Victory and Retake the Land, written in 1990 with
26:37Bill Payne.
26:38You know, he was the expert on spiritual warfare.
26:41He was the expert on relationships in YWAM.
26:45But in order to sort of tune out those other sort of confusing voices, whether it could be bringing helpful
26:55questions and clarification or unhelpful, you know, confusion, it's best to just keep the echo chamber closed so that we
27:03make sure that everyone is sort of singing the same song.
27:06Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter
27:15reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the New Apostolic Reformation?
27:20You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
27:27On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,
27:35John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
27:42You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
27:48If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the
27:54top.
27:55And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or
28:00watching.
28:01On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
28:06We've talked about the emotions of the youth quite a bit, but as it relates to shepherding, this becomes even
28:13more scary for me, because the youth, a young adult, doesn't naturally know what they're going to do with their
28:21life, where their life is headed.
28:23They're looking for spiritual guidance.
28:24And in a non-discipleship scenario, if they're a youth and they're going on to a mission with another group,
28:32they might give them, here are some examples of things that you can do in your life to make the
28:36world a better place.
28:37In fact, I've actually sat through one of those speeches with my children, and it's fascinating because I never had
28:43that world where we're trying to do good for the world, not trying to escape it.
28:48But that's how that was whenever I sent my children to this.
28:52In the discipleship-type mentality, you're trying, as a youth, you're trying to figure out where you're headed, and you're
29:01looking for answers.
29:02But in the discipleship mindset, the answers are coming from a person who claims they're speaking from God.
29:09So this accelerates the problem.
29:11Now you're in this intense spiritual world where, well, if I want to ask God, I go to this person.
29:16He's my spiritual covering.
29:17He's my disciple.
29:18He's my shepherd.
29:19So you go to your shepherd thinking that they're going to give you a divine answer.
29:23And what happens is their advice actually becomes the word of God when it's in this case.
29:30And it goes beyond what we've said previously in even this episode, just normal advice.
29:35Whenever youth go to a person and say, hey, I'm thinking about getting a degree in, I don't know, medical
29:42science.
29:43I want to be a doctor.
29:44Well, if the person says, well, that's a long type of training.
29:48I'm not certain you want to go through all of that training.
29:51Well, now this question is planted, and they believe that the question was planted by God, and it actually sways
29:57their course of life.
29:58This is a huge, huge problem for me because I, thinking of my children, I've, whenever I raise them and
30:07they're, I have one child who has been in college.
30:10Now he's in his job.
30:11Another one who just graduated last year, he's in his job.
30:14And one who I sat at UofL for eight hours on Saturday, he's about to become a college student.
30:21So as they're preparing for college, I actually tried very hard not to sway their decision of where they was
30:27headed so that they could make their own decision and that they could choose their own pathway.
30:32In this type of environment, though, I worry that the children actually don't have a choice in their pathways.
30:38I would say, unfortunately, in my experience, that's been really true.
30:43And again, I'm not speaking just for my own personal, you know, choices in life that I made, but the
30:49clients that I've worked with in member care over the years, the hundreds and hundreds of stories that I've heard
30:56and read and, you know, researched, that seems to be a really common theme.
31:01And YWAM often has an answer for that because they also have a quote-unquote university and they are not
31:11accredited.
31:12There are some other learning institutions that will accept credits or some credits from, you know, various courses.
31:21I did my quote-unquote bachelor's degree with the University of the Nations.
31:27And so if someone is saying, oh, I think I'd maybe like to get into medicine or become a doctor,
31:32they would say, that's a lot of time to be spending because then you're not going to be able to
31:37do so much ministry while you're doing that.
31:39How about you come into our midwifery program or come to our, you know, healthcare degree track and then you
31:51can do ministry at the same time, you know, so you're just, you're never stopping.
31:54You're able to just keep going as you're learning.
31:57And like you said, then that, that sort of puts that thought in your mind.
32:00You think, well, why not?
32:02I mean, sure.
32:03That sounds great.
32:04I know the organization.
32:06I know the people.
32:07I can still be out there serving God.
32:10That's without actually understanding that just as a Christ follower, showing up in the world with love and hope and
32:19peace and goodness and kindness and gentleness, like you are serving God.
32:24You are ministering to the people around you.
32:26But those distinctions are not made.
32:29And as you said, the strength of the word of your leader is more often going to override your own,
32:38any sort of inhibitions or any sort of like, oh, I'm not sure if this is the right thing.
32:43You see that all the time when someone says, oh, my leader asked me to staff another DTS.
32:48It's my third in a row without stopping.
32:50And I told them I need to pray about it.
32:53I go away and pray about it.
32:54I come back and I say, hey, I prayed about it.
32:56I don't have peace.
32:57Because you can't say no, right?
32:59So you have to say, I don't have peace about this thing.
33:01And then the leader says, well, I really felt like God has something in this season for you through this.
33:06I want you to go and pray again.
33:09So, of course, you do.
33:10And then eventually, somehow you come through and you're like, I'm tired.
33:13I'm suffering.
33:14I need a break.
33:15But you know what?
33:17My leader has said, this is something I should be doing.
33:20And so I should deeply take that into account.
33:23And I do.
33:25And so even though I'm tired and I'm burning out and I'm sick and I haven't seen my family in
33:29ages or whatever, there must be something that they know that I don't.
33:34And so I'm going to do this.
33:35I'm going to say yes and I'm going to do it.
33:37And, you know, then go back and say, okay, well, I guess I have peace about it because God's going
33:43to take care of me, you know, no matter what.
33:45So many of the clients that I worked with, that was almost verbatim their story.
33:50And then they're in burnout.
33:52They're seeing me because they're in burnout.
33:53They're depressed.
33:53They're sick.
33:54They can't keep going.
33:56So it's an intensely strong way to utilize, like you said, that emotional immaturity in young people to get them
34:11to do what the organization needs.
34:14So let's take a moment and talk about the other side of the discipleship because, as I understand how the
34:20bases work, it's youth with a mission.
34:22But some of the youth rise up into leadership, and they're still in their mid-20s leading other people who
34:27are, you know, under them.
34:30One of the other problems with the shepherding movement was the confessions.
34:35What was happening is you had people who were confessing their sins one to another, as is biblical, but you
34:41also had people who believed they were in supernatural authority over the people confessing to them.
34:48That goes to your head, especially if you're a youth.
34:50Oh, my gosh, look what they confessed to me.
34:52I'm going to come down very hard and make this stop.
34:55And that's really what happened in the – I can't remember what state it is, but in the United States,
35:01the shepherding movement actually progressed in some of its sects into adult spankings.
35:07The adults would spank each other and try to disciple and keep them in line because that's the type of
35:12mentality you have.
35:13I'm going to take anybody who confesses, and I'm going to make them behave because I'm their shepherd.
35:18I'm responsible for that person.
35:20When you have a youth who feels like they're responsible for another youth, this accelerates the problem because they don't
35:26know how to handle that type of power.
35:28And I'm worried that if that mentality entered into youth with a mission, I'm worried that that may have been
35:37a factor in what has happened and why we have people who are coming to me saying, I got to
35:43get out of here.
35:44This is really harmful.
35:45Absolutely.
35:46I know there was one base – it was in the States.
35:51I want to say it was Elm something.
35:54Was the name of Elmsdale or something?
35:58Where it got really bad.
36:01Like that was very much like cult shepherding.
36:03And I think that one was specifically highly influenced by that authoritarian – I don't know if it specifically advanced
36:12to the place of something like adult spankings.
36:15And hitting each other in terms of punishment.
36:20But I would say that that is a really common – like you said, these young people are witnessing these
36:28confessions or witnessing this sharing.
36:31And something that always bothered me as someone who was pursuing counseling and mental health treatment was this sense of
36:44you're having these young people show up two, three, six weeks in.
36:49And, you know, they're told they need to confess all of their sins and all their deepest, darkest, even if
36:54they've already confessed it to God or to other people in their lives.
36:57This is not like never confessed stuff.
36:59This is just anything ever.
37:01Give it all to us.
37:03And they're being sort of bombarded with people's trauma.
37:08And everyone's just sat there in a group, you know.
37:10It's usually you've been sitting there for a really long time praying, maybe worshiping.
37:15You're hungry.
37:16You're thirsty.
37:17You're tired.
37:18You're emotionally heightened.
37:21And, you know, everyone's just getting washed over by each other's trauma.
37:25And there's nobody there to catch them.
37:28There's nobody trained or qualified to catch anybody, including the staff members, including the leaders.
37:35So I think there's that aspect of it as well, of those people who are not only given an immense
37:41amount of power, as you said, but they're also faced with the reality of just people's trauma and things.
37:49And even there have been so many times where people have confessed crimes in these sessions and the staff don't
38:01do anything else.
38:02They just say, well, you're forgiven.
38:04It's forgiven.
38:05It's like, no, these are these are unconfessed crimes that are now being confessed to you that this person has
38:09sexually assaulted a woman in his past and has never told anybody.
38:15And so, like, oh, great.
38:17Let's pray for him.
38:18He's confessed.
38:18And now we move on with the DTS.
38:20So, yeah.
38:23And then, like, as you said, there are certainly there's certainly that dynamic of the power, as you said, in
38:30some ways, going to the head of of not just the young people.
38:35I found this often with, oddly enough, a lot of what are they called?
38:41Gen X.
38:42Yes.
38:42Gen X.
38:43So, I'm a late millennial.
38:45Gen X, where when the organization started, you know, it was a lot of young people and then they are
38:51sort of figuring it all out.
38:53You know, if you're in the in crowd, you're in the in crowd.
38:56And those are the leaders that are sort of growing up.
38:59They're getting into their 30s and their 40s.
39:00And then they, instead of passing their power and their stuff onto Gen X, as it sort of should have
39:07been, they begin to pass it on to the elder millennials.
39:11And so, Gen X sort of got passed over, as it so often does, sorry, Gen X, in terms of
39:18taking a power and authority.
39:20And so, when those people, again, this is anecdotal, you know, oftentimes those people that finally achieve a sense or
39:28a place of authority or power within the organization, they're not ready to let that go anytime soon.
39:35And they're, yeah, I think in a lot of ways it can go to their heads, as you said, which
39:42can have really intense consequences for the people who are under them, especially if that's a moment, you know, as
39:51you said, there's the young people who sort of achieve power and they don't know what to do with it.
39:54And they're like, and then there's sort of the older people who've been waiting for power and they achieve that
39:58position and they don't want to let it go.
40:01And so, getting to tell people who they should date, where they should go, what they should study, what ministry
40:06they should be working in, what they should be leading, there is, I can imagine, a certain headiness to that
40:14sort of power over others.
40:15So, the big surprise, I mentioned directors and youth with a mission, and to the audience, I was trying to
40:22see the expression on her face, as I mentioned that Arne Baxter and Lauren Cunningham were holding conventions together in
40:29the 70s.
40:30So, this is a point in which the shepherding movement is in its prime, they're really teaching all of these
40:36negative things that I'm talking about, and Lauren Cunningham is joining forces with Arne Baxter.
40:41And I'll throw the newspaper article up on the screen, but it changes and alters, we've talked about the confessions,
40:48it even changes what the confessions are about, because the people who are confessing to the youth who aren't in
40:56charge of their own emotions as they're being confessed to, well, now they're disclosing, like you said, crimes, fears, etc.,
41:03but they're disclosing it in such a way that they believe that they're talking to a mediator between God and
41:09man.
41:09That is really, as I'm building up to the climax of the problem, that's really it for me.
41:15The shepherding movement presented itself as a mediation between God and man, because these are the shepherds, these are the
41:22ones that you go to.
41:23They did not use the word spiritual covering back then, but that's ultimately what it developed into with New Apostolic
41:30Reformation.
41:30But it created this unhealthy dynamic where your spiritual covering was not really any theological expert in many cases, they
41:41were just average people who became your shepherds.
41:44They would give you advice that may not be good, sound scriptural advice, because many of them didn't know theology,
41:49but they submitted their authority to the shepherds and those shepherds to more shepherds.
41:54And it was this pyramid, right? So when you have this type of mentality, and now you're bringing in the
42:01directors, the founder of the organization, all of this with the person who, one of the five people who was
42:09founding members of the shepherding movement, you think that this is a good thing.
42:13Our founder is with this person. This person must be an expert in his field, and his field is how
42:19we submit ourselves and give authority to people who really shouldn't have it.
42:24Yeah, I think in a lot of ways, YWAM adopted a lot of the principles of the shepherding movement in
42:35some ways, perhaps trying to soften them.
42:39You know, so maybe not explicitly talking about, you know, we are a mediator, your leader is a mediator between
42:46you and God, because they were very big on, you know, hearing God's voice.
42:51But they only softened it, they didn't flatten it all the way, you know, sort of thing.
42:56So in that sense of, yes, you can hear from God as well, but I hear from God better because
43:00I'm your leader.
43:01And that's usually not simply because I'm your leader, and I'm in a position of spiritual authority over you.
43:06So there's usually some other qualifier of, I've been at this longer, I've been part of the organization longer.
43:13Certainly, there was the use of, well, I'm your spiritual covering, I'm a 24-year-old, and I'm supposed to
43:20be, you know, leading this course or discipling you.
43:22And so, because I am your spiritual covering, then you have to submit to me, you have to listen to
43:30me.
43:31You know, so absolutely, there was also that level of that sort of taking that place of a mediator, if
43:39you will, or taking that place of, you know, I know better than you, what God is trying to say.
43:46But it's very interesting to see where these different parts of those networks or those parts of those organizations sort
43:55of came together, shared ideas, shared values, principles, strategies, you know, whatever, and then sort of sifted through it on
44:06their own.
44:07I know for a while, YWAM was teaching, like, moral government theory, and then they sort of had to come
44:13in after some years and be like, actually, this is really theologically bad, we need to shut it down.
44:18And they managed to, in some parts, but because it's so decentralized, there were other people that just kept right
44:24on teaching it.
44:26So, yeah, I think it's interesting to hear, you know, the history you're talking about with Ernst Baxter and the
44:32shepherding movement and how each of these groups sort of took things from each other that they wanted to, maybe
44:40shifted it, molded it, you know, made it into something that fit better with them.
44:45Or maybe they saw where the shepherding movement went really bad, and so they're, you know, intentionally tried to soften
44:51it or tried to change it.
44:52But I find it really fascinating how they all touch, they all influence each other in some way.
45:00They do.
45:01And in this case, again, it's all about what flows downhill.
45:05It's flowing downhill from God.
45:07That's the concept that they're trying to portray.
45:09So, when you are going to the shepherds for your guidance, your discipleship, your leadership, you're going because you want
45:17to be teachable.
45:18The question becomes, what happens if you are unteachable?
45:23That's really, if you think about it, that's really the ball of worms that's in this whole conversation, because there
45:29are people who might be unteachable by a specific leader in the movement, but that leader might be appointed as
45:36their shepherd.
45:36Or the movement might see them as the shepherd because they're just simply in the position of leadership.
45:42So, what happens when somebody's incompatible with one of the shepherds?
45:47And in Youth with a Mission's case, what happens whenever you're incompatible with the person who's leading your group?
45:52Does that make you unteachable by God?
45:55That's really what happened in the shepherding movement.
45:57If you were unteachable by a shepherd, you must have gone astray, and you must not be worthy of being
46:02part of us.
46:02And I'm laughing because of the absurdity of this.
46:05Because I can't imagine a world where I would send my children to this type of environment where, if they
46:12were deemed unteachable, they were deemed to be branded as abandoned by God.
46:17And I'm very certain that in the shepherding movement, this kind of thing happened.
46:22What do you think about Youth with a Mission?
46:23Was that something that could have happened or did it?
46:26Yeah, I'm also laughing because I'm like, oh, shame.
46:29Poor young Shelby was wanting so badly to be taught and to understand and to grow as a Christ follower.
46:39And I wanted to be discipled.
46:42And I had questions.
46:45And I think that was what was challenging was asking questions more than once, like, you know, sort of pushing
46:52back on the response that you got was what, at times, labeled me as unteachable.
46:58Now, because I joined YWAM to complete a degree with what I thought was a university, it was extremely important
47:05to me that I was able to pass my courses.
47:08And in order to pass my courses, I had to be liked by the leaders, by the staff.
47:14So, it wasn't simply about my academic achievements or my ability to pass a test or write a paper or
47:21to disseminate the information that I was being taught.
47:23It was also about what was deemed my character or, you know, someone's character.
47:30You're also receiving marks for that.
47:32And that also becomes part of your overall grade.
47:36So, shame.
47:38Yeah, that's definitely the teachability factor is, I think, something that keeps people quiet in a lot of ways.
47:55Because what I saw a lot in YWAM was there would be people who would be deemed difficult.
48:01Yeah, they were a difficult person.
48:03Like you said, people thought, oh, maybe it's just a personality.
48:05They have a really hard personality.
48:06They just clash.
48:08And so, they would get sort of moved from, like, base to base.
48:14And I have heard people engage with some of these people that were deemed difficult in a manner of, well,
48:22I can change them.
48:23You know, so, they've come to my base now.
48:25I'm leading.
48:26Like, I can get through to them.
48:28I can change them.
48:29I can disciple them in the way that they will no longer, you know, be difficult.
48:33And then, after a few years, they're still considered difficult.
48:38And then, they're sort of shuffled off to another location.
48:44So, yeah, I think that was quite sad seeing how those people weren't doing anything wrong.
48:53There was just personality differences or, you know, just for whatever reason, they wanted to be kept, like, YWAM wanted
49:02to keep them.
49:03And so, they would allow them to sort of be shuffled from base to base perhaps with this understanding that,
49:08well, maybe the next person can teach them.
49:11Maybe the next person will mesh with them better, you know, than we did.
49:16So, I think that's something that, yeah, I've certainly seen as a common practice.
49:23If you are considered difficult, you're usually considered unteachable.
49:28It's so sad.
49:29You mentioned being sent to another base.
49:33I want to think through that, and I want to tread very carefully how I ask this question because there
49:38are cans of worms that I don't want to open here.
49:41In Dr. Stephen Hassan's BITE model, behavior control, information control, thought control, manipulation, emotional control, within that realm, there are
49:52the definitions of what makes a group destructive.
49:55And if you read combating cult mind control, it even goes deeper with all of this.
49:59But one of the aspects that is shared by most destructive groups is that you build up a mentality that
50:04is hard to break away.
50:06You're in a group, and suddenly you're in a group, and you can't leave the group.
50:10You feel like your whole world will be crumbled.
50:13When I'm thinking about what would happen with the discipleship that I'm describing that came from Ernst Baxter's side, his
50:22flowing from Branhamism, I was in Branhamism, so I know that type of mentality.
50:26Give that power to somebody who is in their 20s or younger, and suddenly now you have an authority that
50:36makes it where there is a scenario that might fit the qualifications of being in a destructive group.
50:43I'll say it like that, and I'll leave it there.
50:46If you're in a movement like this, as I understand, Youth with a Mission, the DTS is, what, six months,
50:53something like this initially, where you go to the person and say, I've had a great six months.
50:57I want to go home.
50:58I want to go to college.
50:59And then this person who's been given this unwielded authority says, but God really wants you to go to this
51:05other location.
51:07Well, now you have the six-month investment, and you go, and suddenly a six-month investment turns into a
51:1312-month, and 12-month to so on and so forth.
51:16Well, each addition to your investment makes it such that you feel like it's really hard to walk away from
51:22this.
51:22I've invested so much of my life.
51:24I want to make this my ultimate career.
51:27I want to, like Jenny said, I want to martyr myself to this movement.
51:31I'm seeing this as something that potentially could turn into something destructive, and I just really wanted to know your
51:38thoughts.
51:39Well, it's that sunk cost fallacy, isn't it?
51:42You know, that, well, I've already given so much time, so much money, I might as well keep going.
51:47That's certainly how it was for me.
51:49You know, I wanted to do this quote-unquote degree, and I've already given six months, and, you know, what
51:56was it, $7,000, $9,000, $10,000, you know, to this, so I might as well keep going.
52:01And then, you know, sort of was okay for a bit, and you're like, okay, this was okay, and then
52:06you have another horrible experience.
52:07But now you've got a year in, and close to $20,000, you know, sunk into this.
52:14So, I think there's certainly that.
52:18It's very, very common after someone does a DTS for them to try to be recruited.
52:24So, oftentimes, even if someone is like, oh, yeah, you know, that was great, think I'm good, I'm going to
52:28go home.
52:30Oftentimes, again, it's extremely common, it doesn't happen for every single person, but it is extremely common for the staff,
52:37or the leadership of the base, even, to be like, I've had my eye on you this six months, we
52:42really feel like God has something for you here.
52:44And if the base leader comes to you, and it's like, I feel like God is, you know, saying that
52:49maybe he's got something for you here, like, maybe you should pray about coming back and staffing, you know, at
52:55our base.
52:55It's unusual, unless someone is deemed difficult, for them to try to shuffle you off to another location, because they
53:04want people on their locations.
53:07And so, that's money coming into their pocket, that's, you know, they can say they have more staff, that looks
53:14more attractive for other people, who, you know, maybe would come as well.
53:18Yeah, so, I think there is this sunk cost fallacy for people.
53:25But then as well, like you said, it becomes your whole life.
53:28And so, leaving begins to feel impossible for so many reasons, and many of which we've documented in other episodes,
53:36but for the sake of this one, you know, talking about, I don't want to be wrong about what I'm
53:42hearing from God.
53:43So, if this leader is hearing something for me from God, I need to take that into very serious consideration,
53:49because if I miss what God is telling me, there are very dire spiritual consequences.
53:55I could derail my whole life, I could wind up missing a spouse, or a, I'm not sure if career
54:08is the right word, but a direction, you know, that I should be going.
54:12So, it's incredibly dangerous for people who are coming to join, because it's so very rarely six months.
54:22And that's really the problem that I see.
54:25If you don't engage critical thinking, which is very difficult when you're at a young age, if you don't engage
54:31critical thinking, this can turn into a disaster.
54:33So, I'm very, very scared to think what might happen if this continues.
54:40But, hopefully, something we've said can make a change, even within the organization.
54:45If I was in an organization and I were to see these kind of problems, and definitely if I were
54:50to see these types of connections, I would take a step back and say, wait a minute, I need to
54:54examine, what is our core theology?
54:56Do we go off into this error, or are we more biblically based?
55:01So, thank you so much for doing this.
55:03Yeah, thanks so much for having me.
55:04It's a pleasure, as always.
55:05Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.
55:08You can find us at william-branham.org.
55:11For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to
55:17the NAR.
55:18Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
55:47Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
56:17Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
56:21Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
56:24Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
56:25Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
56:26Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
56:26Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
56:26Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
56:27Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
56:27Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
56:27Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
56:28Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
56:28Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.