00:01It never comes back to be fixed up again. You have a moment where you get a chance to
00:06make legislation that is either going to help the country or just be some kind of messaging
00:12exercise by the Labour Party. And that's what we've learnt, I think, pretty much more than
00:18anything else. These things don't come back. You have a moment where you can make it right,
00:24you can fix it, you can make it better, and if you don't use that moment, you end up
00:28getting this kind of half-baked nothings. And I think that's one of the core lessons over
00:32the last, what, term and a bit with the Labour Party.
00:35OK, what are the lessons for the Greens then?
00:37Well, the lessons for the Greens are to have a really simple test on the legislation. Is
00:42it going to make things materially better for Australians? Is it going to actually move
00:47the dial? Or is it just some kind of, you know, faux reform that might make some, you know,
00:53might make a useful messaging exercise? But I do think it's one of the reasons why people
00:57are really, really cynical about politics at the moment. You've got a government selling
01:01it up here. The reality is down here. And people want things to change. So I do, you know,
01:09ensuring that we're not feeding into that credibility gap between what politicians are saying and
01:14what they're doing, I think is really important for keeping the public on board.
01:18The test you've set, which I get it, what you're saying, has that been the test that up until
01:24now and in this term, the Greens have set?
01:27Well, I mean, I think that's always been the attempt to try and make this place work. But,
01:32you know, quite often when you're dealing with the Labour Party on something like climate,
01:36they'll come to you with a, with a piece of legislation that's largely delivering,
01:40delivering for the fossil fuel industry. And, you know, I get it. That's, they take a lot of
01:44donations from the fossil fuel industry. They, they have a relationship with the industry that's
01:49quite different to us as Greens. And then they'll put some tiny little bit on the end and say,
01:53oh, look, here's this nice little bit at the end. And, and unless you only need to vote for this
01:57legislation that delivers for the industry and their donors, you won't get this little bauble. And,
02:03and, you know, I think we can't fall for that going forward. And what they then say this,
02:08well, well, if you won't agree to, to this with this little bauble, we'll take it over to the
02:12coalition and we'll make it even nastier for the climate, even nastier for nature. And,
02:18you know, you can't get caught in that kind of negotiation space where, you know, sometimes
02:23they'll feel like I'm dealing with multiple death cults. You know, they're going to go from one to
02:26the other and do a job on the planet or do a job on society. And we've got to stand
02:30for some values.
02:31All right. Very strong language on death cults. Let's go with climate, right? We've only got one
02:36planet. We've only got one planet. We're feeling it heat up. We've only got so many kids too,
02:42before we, you know, make their lives significantly harder. So in terms of online harm,
02:47do you accept that there's a sense of urgency around online harm? Oh, absolutely. And I think
02:54we're all feeling it. It's not just kids, like, you know, the addictive design that we see with
02:58platforms. You know, I'm sure I'm not the only person who sometimes thinks, wow, I've just spent
03:02half an hour of my life. It just disappeared down my phone, getting rid of things like auto scroll
03:07and autoplay, you know, endless scroll and autoplay, getting rid of some of that addictive design.
03:12But again, you know, we've got legislation where we can make meaningful changes for Australians. And two
03:18things that I think are critical going forward in this digital duty of care is ensuring that if we're
03:24going to put some kind of obligation and duty of care in, Australians, ordinary Australians need a
03:29chance to actually be able to enforce that and not just leave it up to a bureaucrat who almost never
03:34has the resources needed and doesn't have the self-interest in the same way. Creating a right
03:40for Australians without attaching a remedy to it is not a right at all. So there needs to be an
03:45ability, like if people have had serious harm caused to them by a platform, they need an ability
03:51to be able to sue the platform. I think that is really critical.
03:54Okay. Okay. So explain to me in terms of the law reform in front of you, what you are pushing
03:59to change to facilitate that.
04:02Well, we made it clear that the very large amount of ministerial discretion, that was a
04:07non-starter for us.
04:08And they've moved on that?
04:08They've moved on that. And that's good. Like, I'm glad to see that moving.
04:12Ensuring that Australians have agency in this space. And it's not just waiting for a bureaucrat
04:17to move. But if these platforms are out there causing serious harm, and have caused serious
04:23harm, that people have a remedy. It's the same if you get other products. If you buy other products
04:28and they cause serious harm.
04:29So what does that remedy look like?
04:30Well, it looks like being able to go to court. I mean, that is the most obvious remedy,
04:34being able to go to court and get restitution for the damage that's being caused and rectify some harm.
04:41And how would you achieve it? I mean, people have the right to go to court as it is. It's
04:44not
04:45likely prohibited.
04:46Well, you do what's called a statutory right of action. You not only put in place a duty,
04:51you actually attach a statutory right of action to it. So people can actually enforce that duty
04:55if it's been breached by the platforms. Now, I know that that has been resisted by the platforms.
05:00They hate the idea of there being some kind of equal fight.
05:04And have you met with the Prime Minister, Annika Wells? Have you said that that's something that is
05:10non-negotiable for you?
05:11Well, we haven't. Well, you're using the word non-negotiable.
05:14I'm saying it's absolutely critical. It is a critical part of the reforms if it's going to
05:21have the change that Australians need. I haven't had a meeting with the Minister.
05:25But have you sought one on this?
05:26The Minister has made it clear herself that she hasn't sought that meeting, but
05:31very, very open to having the meeting. I have had quite a busy bit in my diary in the last
05:37little
05:37bit. But I want to be clear, we're very open to sitting down and talking through this.
