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Authorities in Pahang suspect 7,000 hectares of the Tasik Bera Permanent Forest Reserve have been illegally cleared for commercial agriculture, and are now taking action to stop it. However, the Semelai Orang Asli say the affected territory is part of their ancestral land and livelihood, and dispute the portrayal of the situation. On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Hon Kai Ping, lawyer and Chairperson of the Bar Council’s Committee on Orang Asli Rights.
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00:00Music
00:10Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This.
00:14This is the show where we want you to consider and when we consider what you know of the news
00:18of the day.
00:19Authorities in Pahang suspect 7,000 hectares of the Tasikbera Permanent Forest Reserve,
00:25which is an internationally recognised wetland, have been illegally cleared.
00:30However, the Samalai Orang Asli say that the disputed land is part of their ancestral territory.
00:36So the question we want to ask tonight is how do we protect a forest reserve without denying Indigenous communities
00:44their customary land rights?
00:46Well, joining me on the show to discuss this further, I have Hon Kaiping, who is a lawyer and chairperson
00:52of the Bar Council's Committee on Orang Asli Rights.
00:55Mr. Hon, thank you so much for joining me on the show today. Let's start with the basics.
00:59For viewers who may not have been following this story, can you begin by explaining to us exactly what is
01:07the dispute happening in Tasikbera currently?
01:10Yeah, from what I understand, from the Orang Asli in Burra, the Samalai Orang Asli, it seems sometime in September
01:20this year,
01:22there were notices to quit of their lands that was pasted onto the, mostly on the trees where the properties
01:34were,
01:35in around 6 to 8 Kampung Orang Asli in Burra. And they were asked to quit their lands.
01:42This month, between 6 to 19 of October, they were supposed to quit their land.
01:48And subsequently, the Orang Asli wrote to Suhakam and Bar Council to give talks to advise them regarding their rights.
01:57And we did that, I think it was, I think it was late, late September.
02:05Subsequent to that, I was told that Jakwa Pengarah from Pahang, Jakwa Pahang, towards the end of September,
02:12has actually written to the Menteri Besar of the State of Pahang, asking, you know, for time to resolve this
02:19matter.
02:21And then, at the same time, the Orang Asli, you know, they put up roadblocks, so that nobody, or rather,
02:30you know, nobody can enter their villages,
02:336 to 8 villages.
02:35Subsequent to the letter by Jakwa to the Menteri Besar, suddenly we discovered the authorities went in by force,
02:42and they actually dismantled the roadblocks set up by the Orang Asli, and then, on top of that, they arrested
02:48some of the Orang Asli's,
02:50seized their palmoy fruits, which they were harvesting, and also, if I'm not mistaken, seized the lorries also,
02:58which they were using to, you know, to transport the fruits as well.
03:04I was also told that 10 days ago, 10 days ago in Oktober, Jakwa arranged a meeting with the Jepartan
03:14Hutang,
03:14and there was a meeting held at the Jepartan Hutang in Kuantang, where at least, I think, 8 to 10
03:21Batin,
03:22the village chiefs from 8 to 10 Kampang Orang Asli from Bera, met with the, supposed to meet with the
03:29Jakwa and then Hutang,
03:30but at the same time, it seems there was a company, there was a company present,
03:37and then this company make an offer to them to so-called, give them dividends of the shared profit,
03:4570% for the company and 30% to the Orang Asli.
03:51On the spot, the Orang Asli, they refused, they declined the offer by the developer.
04:00According to that, we discovered there was a letter floating in the internet,
04:04but this same company, given 7,000 hectares of tapping rikes over the lands,
04:127,000 hectares is about 18,000 acres.
04:16So up to now, the authorities, even as we speak now, are still going in to dismantle all the gates
04:23that the Orang Asli put up over the years, and also putting up the new gates.
04:28And because of that, they have been going on for the past 2-3 weeks.
04:32As far as the Asli is concerned, they have got no income, and now they have returned to the,
04:38I mean, they're doing a public appeal for funds.
04:40And I was told that the authorities, meaning the state government, have tried to say,
04:46we are waiting for the list of the names of the Orang Asli before they make the supplies.
04:51So that's the current situation.
04:53All right, so if I understand correctly, Mr. Han, so in this dispute,
04:57so the Pahang state government is seeking to enforce the forest reserve protections
05:02against what it suspects is large-scale illegal commercial clearing,
05:07then the Semai Orang Asli community is saying,
05:10well, this enforcement action is threatening their ancestral territory,
05:14their homes, their livelihoods.
05:15So how do we think about this?
05:17There's also a claim that there's the exploitation by outside commercial interests,
05:21but the community, if I understand, has rejected these, I guess, these claims, these assertions.
05:28Talk to me about this.
05:30If, how does the ancestral land claim rights, or excuse me,
05:36how does the customary land rights claim affect the state enforcement?
05:42Is that area under customary land claim at the moment by these Orang Asli?
05:51There's something I need to correct.
05:53The notice to quit issue by the Jepartan Hutan is not because there was huge clearing of the reserves or
06:03the Hutan Kekap.
06:04So the notice, you know, I can give you a sample, seems to indicate that it seems there were titers
06:13or racks
06:14or titers this issue to particular individuals or companies and now they're asking them to quit these places
06:20because of this racks given to particular individuals or companies.
06:25Okay.
06:25So that is the notice given by the Jepartan Hutan.
06:29As far as the Orang Asli are concerned,
06:32they have been staying in this area since time immemorial.
06:36In our earlier case that we have pursued in the Temuloh High Court
06:39where we actually sued the authorities, we have produced documents to show that there have been,
06:45how should I put, there have been on this land since time immemorial before independence, for example.
06:50You know, and so they were basically, you know, living happily.
06:55Okay.
06:56And suddenly they received these notices.
06:58That is why they set up the block.
07:00Now regarding reserves as well as Ramsar, Sykes, etc.
07:04I would like to explain that a lot of the Orang Asli's religious are within the Hutang Kekal
07:12and also within the Ramsar Sykes.
07:16Okay.
07:16So some of the religious actually come into existence before this gazeting of these Foros Reserves
07:23and Ramsar Sykes.
07:25You know, that means the Orang Asli have been staying there even before this Ramsar Sykes exists
07:33and even before this Hutang Kekal was gazetted, you know.
07:37So they were actually living within this area.
07:40Yeah.
07:41Okay.
07:42So if the Semalai, for the Semalai community, do they have legal avenues?
07:49What would be kind of the practical pathway for them that's available to them currently?
07:58Now, then we have the Federal Constitution, okay, where Federal Constitution gave JAKWA
08:04the responsibility to protect the Orang Asli rights.
08:08At the same time, we got the Aboriginous Peoples Act 1954, which allows the state government
08:15using state land to gazette the land of Orang Asli reserves.
08:21Unfortunately, since independence are 69 years, that is two generations ago, more than two generations,
08:28hardly any lands where the Orang Asli stay are staying have been gazetted for Orang Asli reserves.
08:37You know, so basically, in our cases, when we do file in court, we are basically asking the authorities,
08:45Federal Government, JAKWA, and then the state government to gazette and reserve this lands
08:51for the Orang Asli so that there will be no more dispute.
08:54Unfortunately, since independence, 69 years, none of the properties or lands,
09:00I wish the Orang Asli have been staying, have been gazetted for Orang Asli reserves.
09:05So, so that is the problem.
09:06And you're asking me about the Legal Avenue.
09:10So what we do as lawyers, of course, is to go to court to basically tell the court,
09:16look, the state government and the federal government have failed in their duties to gazette the lands
09:21as Orang Asli reserves, and we come here now to please asking the state and federal government
09:26to gazette the lands as Orang Asli reserves.
09:29That is all.
09:30That is what we have been doing in the case in Temuloh High Court,
09:34currently going fix for decision at the end of this year.
09:37Yeah, and of course, these recent cases which has just come to us,
09:41we'll be looking for lawyers to assist us in this matter because it's quite a big matter.
09:46So, if there are any lawyers there who are, you know, I want to help us,
09:51please come to Bar Council and see us.
09:53Definitely.
09:54Well, you mentioned something a bit earlier, Mr. Han, the Ramza site,
09:59the recognised, the state being recognised for its importance ecologically in terms of its wetlands.
10:06Can we talk a little bit about that?
10:07What does that, how does that come into play?
10:10Does that designation actually require the Malaysian government,
10:15be federal or state, to act on what it suspects is illegal clearing?
10:21And I'm also curious to know, should there be, you know, rights or, as you said,
10:28having this area gazetted as customary land,
10:31what activities can legally take place there if it is gazetted as ancestral land?
10:38And are there restrictions as to what can apply in this gazetted?
10:44Of course, like I said earlier, the orang asli have been staying within this Ramza site
10:50as well as the Hutuang Kekal since time immemorial.
10:54You know, subsequently, of course, under UNESCO,
10:57these sites were designated first time for Malaysia is the Ramza site in Burrah.
11:02And that is for the diversity of the area.
11:06And of course, as far as UNESCO is concerned,
11:09there will be an agreement signed with the United Nations
11:13to make sure that they adhere to the conditions for UNESCO sites.
11:18Now, I've been seeing in the papers huge clearing.
11:23You know, I'm not sure whether it is on what sites is it?
11:28But I think the authorities need to answer the question about this 7,000 hectares of land
11:35given to this company for tapping racks.
11:38Tapping racks basically is upon areas which has been actually cleared.
11:43You know, and so, of course, Bar Council has been pursuing the authorities
11:50to ask them to give us the site of this 7,000 hectares or 18,000 acres.
11:56Unfortunately, the answer we have been given so far is Official Secrets Act.
12:01You know, this is State Secrets C.
12:03So, I think the ball is the state government's part.
12:08Tell us exactly where is this 7,000 hectares atrium.
12:13I've given to the, apa nama tu, to this company.
12:17You know, then we can talk about who is behind all this clearance of the property.
12:22Okay, so in your view, more transparency or information about this is needed.
12:30Can I ask you then, going forward, what would you like to see?
12:34What would you consider accountability or at least a fair resolution in this dispute?
12:39Yeah, I think the authorities must realize that they must desert the orang asli reserves.
12:51Okay, negotiate with the orang asli that they're staying there since before independence.
12:57And they've been doing all the activities.
12:59And suddenly, overnight in September this year, they placed all these notices
13:03and, you know, ask these people to move out.
13:07So, even Jakwa, you know, Jakwa Pahang, Mr. Encik Adam has returned to the state government
13:13end of September of last month to the Menteri Besar for the discussion.
13:19Instead of a discussion regarding this matter, suddenly we see the authorities coming in force,
13:24you know, and dismantle all the roadblocks, you know.
13:27So, I think all the parties must take a step back, okay.
13:32Let us be transparent about it.
13:35Jakwa is exactly where these 6, 7,000 hectares, you know, of lands, of tapping racks given to this company.
13:42Why are they so afraid of revealing to us?
13:46You know, the state government has, I believe, taken 11 million dollars of revenue
13:52as premiums are given by the company as a result of this allocation of the 7,000 hectares of lands,
14:00you know.
14:01So, tell us exactly where this lands is.
14:04And then we can, you know, then we can talk openly, you know.
14:09So, that is my suggestion.
14:12Mr. Hong, thank you so much for joining me on the show.
14:14Mr. Hong Kaiping there from the Bar Council's Committee on Orang Asli Rights.
14:18We're going to take a quick break here and consider this.
14:20We'll be back with more.
14:21Stay tuned.