Are Your Employees in the Wrong Roles? The Hidden Cost of Poor Team Fit

Name: Are Your Employees in the Wrong Roles? The Hidden Cost of Poor Team Fit
Uploaded: 2026-10-21T22:11:56+00:00
Duration: 46 min 24 s
Channel: Workforce Alchemy

00:05Welcome to the Mason Ducatech Show, presented by WorkforceAlchemy.com, where business leaders

00:11discover practical ways to select, engage, and retain their best employees.

00:16Today's guest, Leon Morales, is President and Chief Energy Officer at DNA Behavior International,

00:23where his work focuses on behavioral insights, decision-making, leadership, and the relationship

00:30between human behavior and business performance. Today, we're going to explore what leaders may

00:35be missing when they focus on the numbers, but overlook the people behind them. Leon,

00:40welcome to the show. Thank you, Mason. It's a pleasure to be here.

00:43So when leaders look at a business problem, they usually start with the numbers. How do you know

00:49when what appears to be a financial or performance problem is actually a people or behavioral problem?

00:57And Mason, in my career, I've discovered that they're all human behavior issues. And I think

01:02it roots from that, right, around misunderstanding, communication. You know, there's just, you know,

01:08information that passes between individuals. But that's usually a CEO or a leader looks at sort of

01:15the issue. It's usually looking at the numbers because they're not sort of matching up what

01:19the expectations were. But they really do relate to a human behavior issue. And most of it is related

01:26to, because, you know, there's in an organization, there's people, process, and technology. And if you

01:30don't get all three of those right, you know, you can have business performance issues. But they all

01:35sort of rooted in making decisions, people making decisions, you know. And what I've discovered in the

01:42work that I've been doing, and literally it's been over 35 years, is that, and why I got into the

01:46work,

01:47is that people sort of take jobs that they may not be naturally wired to do. For instance,

01:53I'm a CPA by my background, but I was never a great CPA. And it was because I'm really very

02:00spontaneous. I'm a huge risk taker. But I did that work for a number of years. And I was pretty

02:05good

02:05at it. But I was never exceptional, like some of my peers might have been. So when you look at

02:10sort of

02:10those numbers, and you realize that there's an issue, it could be that you've got some people in the

02:15wrong seats. And you know, it's really understanding and deep diving, understanding at a human behavior

02:20level, where are people sort of suited in their skills. Because in the DNA world, when you complete

02:26what we call our DNA discovery process, there's over 3 trillion combinations. So you can imagine

02:32trying to actually fit in, you know, an individual in the right seat. And we try to buy that. So

02:37it makes

02:38sure that people, you know, if I need to be a CPA, I probably should be planned. I should be

02:42somewhat,

02:43you know, being cautious around sort of the numbers. And so you really start what I would

02:50call benchmarking, making sure people are in the right roles, because it really does really relate

02:55to that. And if you're not certain that people are in the right roles, there's just some simple

02:59things you can do to really understand, you know, are people sort of in the right roles as it relates

03:04to

03:04that performance metrics, because maybe they just don't understand what that metric is and how to get to

03:08it. So that's kind of the way I think CEOs can think about, you know, attacking sort of that

03:14rational result to a human behavior issue.

03:18Well, if it makes you feel any better, I didn't have the DNA to be an accountant either. I took

03:22business classes in college and I was a business major, but I think my lowest grades in the business

03:28classes were related to accounting. And I remember doing this big project and worksheet and whatnot,

03:35and I was off by like 13 cents. And I was like, I don't care. You know, here's an extra

03:40dollar,

03:41we'll call it even. My time is more valuable than this. And the people that were true accountants

03:46were like, no, I've got to uncover what this mystery is. And they were all about, they would

03:49spend hours to figure out where 13 cents went. Me, I don't care. So it was not in my DNA.

03:56Two very

03:56different approaches to, I'd rather throw in the change and call it even. And my time's too valuable.

04:02If I was within 13 cents of it, call it good. Those guys, it was not in their DNA. They

04:07had

04:07to know what it was and why it was that way and where the mess up was. And it became

04:12very clear

04:13to me I was not going to be a certified public. And you know what's interesting, Mason, is that

04:1713 cents drives me crazy. I have to find it. Not me at all. Not even a little bit. I

04:23know. It's so

04:24funny how our brains are wired to do that. And it just literally pains me not to find it because

04:29the theory is that it could be off 13 cents, but it could be off a million dollars on this

04:33side or a million dollars off on that side. So that's, that's really why we're trained as

04:38accountants to find that 13 cents. See, and I'm trained as a business owner to hire a good

04:43accountant who can do that. Exactly. That's exactly right, Mason. So what are the early warning

04:50signs that hidden behavioral friction is beginning to hurt a team even before it shows up in a turnover

04:56or missed targets or financial results? Yeah. Usually it's always interesting. And you know,

05:02some of the questions that you, that I read through, it's, it's interesting that people

05:07become defensive. That's an early sign, you know, you know, kind of covering up. And I, when I say

05:13that loosely, you know, somebody feels that they're being sort of asked questions, the more person that's

05:18confident in the role that they're doing, usually answers with a very rational response for those

05:24that, you know, may be insecure in their self-confidence or whatever the situation is,

05:29they become defensive. That's an early sign, you know, that there's more blaming somebody else on

05:34the team potentially that, you know, they, to mask that, that's another sign that could be really a

05:39danger sign because it really does create team friction pretty early on. And I always use this,

05:47Mason, you're probably familiar with it. It's the Tuckman model of teams. I don't know if you're

05:51familiar with that. Feel free to share. Great. There are four phases of a team that really,

05:56there's actually five, but it's where a team comes together, you know, you're hiring. So we call it

06:01the forming stage. And then there's always a storming phase, no matter what, it's a storming

06:08phase where people are getting to know each other's behavior, how you work, how you excel,

06:12how you communicate. So that forming stage, and then there's the performing stage. That's where,

06:18so it's norming, it's, I'm sorry, it's forming, storming. Norming is where sort of the team's

06:24starting to settle down and really perform. And then, so you got forming, storming, norming,

06:30performing. And the performing is the highest level of a team performance because they really

06:36understand how they fit together as a team. There's high performance. Those metrics are being met

06:41and they really are on a performing team. And you can probably even relate, Mason, in your own career

06:45where you had a team that was just excelling at everything. And they might've been doing it for

06:50a period of time. And then you brought in a new team member or somebody left and then you go

06:55right

06:55back to forming, no matter what. And then you sort of get, build that back up. But I see most

07:00organizations I've worked with that sometimes teams never get out of the storming phase because they

07:06don't really understand each other's behavior. There's not a respect of that. There's not an understanding

07:12how you fit together in the team, or maybe it's just you're in the wrong seat, but you really want

07:16to get to that norming or performing stage. And that's why it's so critical. You can really evaluate

07:21where you are on a team using those sort of four buckets. And I can relate. And that's really

07:29challenging and frustrating for a team leader who knows what that team's potential is to have it

07:35bottlenecked by one new person. And they don't know how to navigate that

07:42discomfort associated with the storming. And they know what the team can be doing. They know

07:47they aren't doing it. And it's like, how do I address that? Which I'm going to talk about today.

07:53Yeah, that's a great example of that. And I sort of use the behavioral insights. So if you have

07:58somebody on this, what they call, we call it on a scale, 20 to 80, somebody that's really anchored

08:04is somebody that repeats the process. Always they'll look at a process and they'll follow it,

08:09you know, one through 99 if there are 99 steps to it. They'll follow it to precision. That's called

08:15an anchored individual on the 20 scale. It's anywhere between 20 and 80. And 80 on the other

08:21side is creativity. Somebody that's creative, somebody that's actually closer to 80 on creativity

08:26will never follow that process ever. They might look at step one and they'll change it up to two,

08:32three to 99 where it's not even looking the same. So if you think about it in the workplace,

08:36if you've got people and you have it, sometimes it's a hidden insight that you wouldn't even know

08:42if somebody's on closer to the 20, they're working with somebody on the, on the 80 side,

08:46they don't even speak the same language. In fact, it confuses the anchored person because they're

08:52trying to follow a step. The creative person never likes to follow the same thing twice.

08:56Well, you need both in an organization, but sometimes they're just in the wrong role. If you put a

09:02creative person in a process role, they will probably fail miserably. They'll be very

09:07sort of unhappy in their work. If you put a very anchored person, a very creative type role,

09:12they, you know, you ask them to do something and it's like deer in the headlights. They don't

09:16really even know where to start. That gives you some context of how-

09:20I can relate to that. I'm clearly, I just in this description, I'm, I don't know that I'd be an

09:2580,

09:25but I'd be, I've always, Tony Robbins would describe it as committed to your outcome,

09:30but flexible in your approach. Exactly. That's a very creative outlook. Yep.

09:34And there's more than one right answer to, to, to people like me. There's more than one right

09:38answer. There's more than one process. And depending upon the variables and circumstances

09:43involved, my nature is to be very flexible in as long as I'm focused on the outcome. And there's

09:48multiple ways to get there. Plenty of right answers to me, but I have been around people who

09:52are very, very anchored and you are 100% correct. It feels like they're dragging their feet. And,

09:57and I'm like, how can you not see these other options? But, and they're looking at me like,

10:03how can you get off the path? Exactly. No, it's, it's a, it's a, you know,

10:08almost like a planetary thing. You know, you're from a different planet because

10:10different languages. Exactly.

10:14So what are the biggest mistakes leaders make when managing people who communicate process

10:18information or make decisions very differently from each other?

10:21I think a lot of it is, and you know, Mason, I'm a very big believer of you should really

10:25know

10:26and own your own behavior and their, you know, organizations spend, you know, hundreds and

10:31thousands of dollars in their organization on using behavioral insights. And they all measure

10:35somewhat the same things. Some, they have different insights, but if you know, you're sort of an anchored

10:41individual, that's important to know. Cause quite honestly, I want you to be in a role that you can

10:45consistently perform and do it really well. I'd say the disadvantage is most people never go through

10:52that and understand it, but there are ways to measure it and to understand it. And if I know it,

10:57or if I'm a leader and I'm going in and I realize that somebody is really good at precision of

11:01executing on that standard every time, I'm going to want to put them in a role that they can be

11:07successful with. And when I was using that example of the, of the Tuckman model, I worked in an

11:12organization. It was one of the biggest universities in the United States.

11:15And they had a group of business analysis group that the CFO was very unhappy with that had 30

11:21people in it. And she thought the team was really dysfunctional and need to be disband.

11:26And we would bring in one of the biggest consulting firms to, to just, you know, create a new, a

11:32new

11:32business analytics group. But the, the controller at the time was like, no, these are really talented

11:37people. I just not sure how to uncover where we're having this gap. And we put them through the DNA

11:44insights and it was remarkable. You had these insights of people that were just light,

11:49slightly in the wrong role. We tweaked it a bit, not really reorganizing the group, but literally

11:54just very subtle things on the, in their job. And I kid you not Mason, within 60 days, that team

12:01was

12:01performing at such a high level. The CFO was amazed that it could turn around that quickly. And it was

12:07in the first 30 days, they really started performing at a different level, but it was in the 60th day

12:12where they did this capstone review with the CFO and she was blown away. She said, never in my career

12:18have I seen this turnaround with that. And it gets down to, and whether it's the DNA insights or any,

12:24it's really the paying attention to what people, the roles that they're doing and are they doing the

12:28right rules and doing the right type of work in their role? And can they excel in that?

12:34It's interesting you say that because a lot of times when you have a team that they have amazing

12:42and irreplaceable institutional knowledge and they have hard to find skills. And sometimes they have

12:48both of those things. It's like, we have to find a way to make this work. And when you can

12:53identify

12:53one person's strengths might be someone else's and vice versa. And if once you can identify that,

13:01it's just like, oh, and I don't want to overly simplify this, but it's kind of common sense.

13:05It's like, well, why don't you spoke about roles and responsibilities? Well, if I'm a team leader

13:10and I know that I've got a very knowledgeable person who has very valuable skills and they're

13:16struggling because part of their role requires them to be something they're not. And the same things

13:21happening over here, it's not that complicated to me to say, well, why don't we shift these

13:25responsibilities and adjust these roles, keep the same people on the team, just give them roles

13:31that play to their strengths. And that way, I mean, it's common sense to me, but common sense isn't

13:36always common. You know, that's a great sign of a leader that is adaptable to that because you

13:43recognize that, you know, you've got to have some semblance of a job description and all that.

13:47But what you just described is the ideal way to do it. I recognize that this person has a skill

13:53that's, you know, kind of emerged and maybe we didn't know it when they were hired, but let's,

13:57let's modify that role so they can, you know, we still get the same work done, the same output,

14:02but now we've got somebody that's really feeling 100% comfortable in their job. And, you know,

14:07that's the one thing I've always said, you know, if you're a, if you're a person on a team and

14:13you

14:13leave your work exhausted and literally spent and drained, you're probably not working in your

14:19right strengths and you may not even realize it. And it's funny. You just talked about someone being

14:24highly anchored. Someone who's highly anchored would not think of moving those people around

14:27because, well, this is the process. This is the system. This is where people belong and they don't

14:31want to go outside that. And they might be their own worst enemy. And that happens a lot in leadership

14:36because they were promoted because they did really well in that process role. They get promoted and all of a

14:41a sudden they're in a role that they're not as comfortable with. And all of a sudden they've

14:45got to make these decisions and they've got team members that aren't performing at the certain

14:48level that they think they are. But you're right. That that's usually indicative of somebody that's

14:52not flexible. Let's look at the team and make sure they're working on the right things.

14:56And it's important. I think that's one of the responsibilities of a really good leader

15:00is to recognize if somebody is not performing, it doesn't mean that they're a bad player.

15:05It just means they're probably not doing the right types of things. And that's

15:08really the time to spend with them. You know, what are the types of things that you're really

15:12good at if you don't have a discovery process or an assessment process to draw from? But you can

15:17figure out how to do that and make sure that people are working in the right types of work

15:21that they can be successful in. So how should a CEO approach an important decision when the

15:28executive team strongly disagrees and different personalities are pulling the conversation in

15:32different directions? Well, that's always a challenge, right? At the CEO level, when you have that

15:37and you have those, you know, those behavioral insights roll up, you know, at the senior level,

15:42right? You've got these very different sort of, you know, sort of personalities that do it. And

15:46sometimes it's ego that can get in the way of it. But I think if you really dissect what is

15:50the issue

15:51that we're really trying to solve here and using a methodology that, you know, you've got because

15:56the creative people, like you were saying, usually have a different perspective on the decision

16:02that might not be as anchored, you know, because somebody, even if the CEO is anchored,

16:06because maybe they got promoted in that role because they were good at certain things. But

16:11then you've got somebody else that's got a real creative idea. I think it's just vetting that to

16:15make sure that they really understand what the pros and cons are. And, you know, with many leaders,

16:22we see, especially at the CEO level or the COO level, they tend to be very fast paced. They tend

16:31to be, you know, not always listening to sort of the advice that's given. But one thing to frame it

16:38up, anybody on that team to frame it up is to give that CEO options. I've got option A, and

16:45I've got

16:46option B. And what's interesting with that, Mason, is that sometimes when the CEO is presented with

16:52options A and B, they come up with a new option, option C, that they never thought of. But the

16:58problem is most of the times we always think the CEO has all the answers. So we say, here's what

17:04we

17:04recommend, but you don't give anybody an option. I love that. Yeah. Options make a huge difference,

17:11especially at that executive level when they've got so much on their brain already.

17:15But you just opened up a pathway for them to think about an option C that they never even

17:19really thought about themselves. And from the CEO's perspective, sometimes when the CEO goes to

17:25the team, the CEO has access to knowledge and variables that the members of the team might not

17:32know of. So they're making their decisions are only the sounds of facts in which they're based. And

17:38they've got all these facts and additional information. And the team might only have access to a

17:43fraction of that. So to put yourself in the CEO's position, they might need some advice or some

17:48opinions or some guidance in some areas where they have some uncertainty, but it's not the whole

17:52picture, even though it looks like that to the team. Correct.

17:55I like what you're saying, but for the team to be able to recognize that, hey, he or she,

18:01whoever the CEO is, it's not like they're not listening to us. It's not like they're being dismissive.

18:05We have to recognize that they have access to information and variables that haven't been shared with us.

18:11And I have to assume that if they're going against what we're recommending, it's because they've got

18:15other information we don't have, but it still kind of kills. I'm not gonna say kills, but

18:21negatively impact. It can disincent. For sure. Yeah. But I think one of the ways that you're

18:27describing is if I'm part of that management or leadership team working with a CEO, I love your

18:35idea of options because that that's kind of the best of both worlds. It really is. And, you know,

18:40a good example of that, even with our chairman, Hugh, I get to spend time with him each Monday

18:45morning, 715. We do, we're both on our sort of mobile devices and walking and Hugh actually

18:52processes and I can just answer questions, but it's all of a sudden it breaks through things

18:59that he wasn't even thinking about when we started the call. He's like, you've just given

19:02me, you give me like five new things. I, you know, that were that I wasn't thinking about

19:07before, but it's interesting. And I think that's really more of the, what my, we're sort of here

19:12is human beings is exchanging information. Cause many times you're kind of a mirror for that CEO

19:19or that leader. You're not necessarily coming up with the solution, but you're giving them

19:24sudden affirmation or you're giving them some sort of a guidance that says, yeah, we're on the right

19:28path, which can unlock some thinking that they didn't think about before. So that's why I'm a

19:34believer of doing off sites and not doing them overly, you know, cause sometimes off sites can

19:39be what they call boondoggles. I'm talking about real creative time where you're just away from

19:45your daily job, but you're able to work together in this executive team to really understand, you know,

19:52what are the options we need to do for our 2027 plan that that's different than just sitting in a

19:57meeting

19:58walking through sort of the plan for next year, but you're giving them. Cause once you're away from

20:03your day-to-day job, your brain starts unlocking into better solutions and better options for the

20:09company as you're thinking about the planning phase for next year. So can you give us an example of how

20:14understanding behavioral differences can change the way a team communicates or makes decisions and

20:19what lessons should leaders take from that? That's a great question, Mason. So here's what,

20:24what's interesting is that, and you probably seen it in your own career. So you've got somebody like

20:29we talked about the CEO being sort of very fast paced moving along. What's interesting is if they're

20:34very directly involved in the hiring process, they hire people just like themselves. So all of a sudden

20:40you see an executive team that mirrors like the CEO, and that may not be the best team for that,

20:46for that company, for that, you know, and you see a lot of in entrepreneurial companies

20:50where they hire people like the same. Cause, and I'll use sort of our unique style. We call them

20:56just to give you some orientation on it. If you think about a clock at the 12 o'clock positions,

21:01what we call an influencer and they make great CEOs because they're fast paced. They make decisions.

21:06They tend to not know a lot of details, but they're very fast paced movies. Then you'd look at the

21:12five o'clock position. You have what we call a relationship builder and a relationship builder loves

21:17to have one-on-one relationships with clients or people. They tend to make great individuals,

21:24trusting members of a team, but they're not as fast paced. So you would probably have that

21:30influence with the 12 o'clock, not wanting to interact much with the five o'clock, the relationship

21:36builder, because they just don't move as fast as they do. But we need, as part of the puzzle,

21:41we need the relationship builder in the company because they really do add a lot of value,

21:46value. But you miss out many times in the executive team meeting where you don't have enough of that

21:51behavioral style to really understand what's needed and how do we actually move the ball or how do we

21:58get to the goal? Because you're missing a certain component of that. And I was just giving you

22:02illustrating that. If you think of every number on the clock, because there's 10 unique styles,

22:06you need a makeup of really all 10 in an organization where you can perform really well. But people,

22:13CEOs get a little, they can get sort of what I'd call disillusioned because they feel like they're

22:21always being remedial and they're not sort of, you know, because if they're working with people just

22:25like themselves, they all move at the same pace. That's where you can have a huge disadvantage to

22:30get back to that Tuckman model. You stay in the storming phase because you can't, you know,

22:35have the right team and you're not giving the right level of respect for the other team members that

22:40aren't quite as fast paced as you are or may not think as quickly as you do, or you're more

22:45anchored

22:45or you're more creative. You're just not giving it that what I call behavioral diversity respect

22:50to really get to the right performance for that team.

22:55It's a really interesting conversation because I think of leaders who are much more on the creative

23:03side and on the other end of the spectrum from anchored who can make decisions quickly. And again,

23:09quote Tony Robbins, he says, make a decision, notice what's working, what isn't and adjust.

23:13And they do that. They have enough information to make a decision quickly. And when they get

23:18additional information, they adapt and adjust and do so along the way. And speed is an asset for them.

23:24It's a strength. But on the same token, you've got people that are more anchored that are like,

23:29I don't have enough information to make a decision. We're going to take our time. We're going to wait.

23:33We're going to be risk averse. We're avoid mistakes. We're going to think everything through.

23:37True. Now, they may be less likely to make mistakes, but indecision is a decision.

23:43Exactly. Exactly.

23:45And at a certain point in time, there's disadvantages to that too. And I think that

23:50the ideal scenario in most cases is a healthy balance of both.

23:53It is.

23:54And it's knowing when to take the chance on speed and make a decision and, hey, we're going to adapt

23:59versus when to be a little bit more cautious and careful. And a lot of that, I think, has to

24:03do

24:03with the consequences of those decisions. It does. And I think one thing, Mason, is also that

24:08the team members that need more information, we call them reflective thinkers, they need more

24:13information. But if they have time to think about it, they usually come up with a great answer,

24:17giving them adequate time to do that. But sometimes you just got to move fast. As the Tony Robbins,

24:22you got to fail fast, right? And move quickly. So sometimes I think it's just, again, respecting

24:29that you've got this individual on the team that adds a lot of value to the team, but they

24:35may not move as fast. But there are other times when they do really add a lot of value. And

24:41the

24:41more time you give some individuals that need a little bit more time, they usually come up with

24:45a better answer. And I'll use this as an example, because I'm pretty fast-paced. I like to move

24:50through decisions.

24:51Me too.

24:51And I'm probably much like you. We probably both are what we call initiators. But I'm also the first

24:57person to say, okay, maybe this didn't work. Let's go. Let's retool it a little bit.

25:02I'm not trying to make a mistake. I just want to fix it.

25:05Exactly. And that's our ability to sort of move fast. Because fast-paced organizations,

25:10we have to be in this AI world today. You can't sit on a decision, like you said. And without

25:15a

25:16decision, it is a decision, right? Because you've been sitting on it. You got to move fast. So I think

25:21it's just bringing people along. And there could be sort of a check-in at some point. Because if you

25:26want

25:26to keep that team out of the storming phase, you got to have some level of respect. Because they're

25:31on that team for a reason. They do add value. It's just making sure that you're sort of following up,

25:36that they don't feel disenfranchised. Because maybe we didn't follow every aspect of their

25:44guidance. That's okay.

25:45One of my friends, her name is Marlene Chisholm, and she's written a bunch of books. I think

25:49my favorite of her books, I actually read on an airplane to Alaska last week. But it's from

25:53Conflict to Courage. And she talks about different types of leaders. She talks about the leaders that

26:00hesitate because they want everyone to like them. And she talked about the hero leader. The hero leader

26:04being the one that jumps in and does everything, fix everything. What does everyone else do? They back

26:07off and they let them. Yeah. And that's always a dangerous, that's a dangerous one.

26:12It is. And that's what very much in line with what you're talking about. When you're talking like

26:17that, I'm sitting there thinking, hero leader, hero leader, and everyone else on the team

26:21is backing off, shrinking down, staying out of the way, avoiding risk, and contributing far less than

26:26they're capable of. Because hero jumps in and does everything, and they become the bottleneck.

26:32Yeah. And that can really disincent everybody. They're not as engaged as they could be.

26:37And that hero leader can turn it around as well. Sure, of course.

26:41You know, because sometimes you do have to jump in, as you know, to...

26:44But not every time.

26:45But just not every time. Because that's why you have the team. And I think that's

26:49a really growth opportunity for a hero leader. And the other one that you mentioned,

26:53what was the other one? The other one, I want everyone to like them.

26:56Yeah. That's always a dangerous one as well. Because, you know, they literally want to be liked.

27:01Because there is a behavioral insight around people wanting to be liked. It's kind of

27:05related to what we call the outgoing factor. Image is really important to them. So they're not going

27:11to be... Versus somebody that's really fast-paced. That's the opposite of that one. They don't care.

27:17If you're closer to 20 being fast-paced, you don't care whether anybody likes you or not. You don't

27:20care. That's a dangerous side too. But you've got to find that balance. If you're a really outgoing

27:25person and image is important to you, that is... But not everybody's going to like you. You've got to make

27:30tough decisions. You've got to sort of move the ball. But if you're going to stay in that performance

27:34stage of your team, you've got to recognize that not everybody's going to like it. Like you as in

27:40every decision. Before we continue, I'm going to interrupt just for a quick commercial break on

27:44this. I want to share an opportunity for listeners who are ready to put better workforce practices

27:49into action. I want to challenge you to apply for the Workforce Alchemy Challenge and get expert

27:54training and the opportunity to qualify for up to $1,000 in practical assessment tools that

27:59you can use to help reduce turnover, workplace drama, and unnecessary labor costs while generating

28:04more discretionary effort. You can learn more at WorkforceAlchemy.com. Now, let's get back to

28:08the good stuff here. Psychological safety gets talked about a lot. How do you know when employees

28:15genuinely feel safe enough to disagree with the boss, admit a mistake, or say they don't understand

28:20something? Yeah, that's an interesting... And I love talking about psychological safety because it

28:25really does get to what we've been talking about. You've got that anchor person,

28:29versus creative. But the anchored person needs to be felt valued on the team. And there's very

28:35things, little things you have to do to keep them engaged. But that's a good example of where

28:41if that person is shut down, their idea is bad, you know, especially publicly, that's the worst thing

28:47that can ever happen in a team is somebody's called out on a team. And I've worked in teams where

28:51I had

28:51to actually let somebody go because they did that, you know, in front of a group of actually about 80

28:56people. And, you know, it's the worst thing you could... And the person didn't even realize they

29:00were really doing that. But they... That's sort of an untrained individual. But it's important to know,

29:06you know, those are one-on-one conversations. If somebody's really not performing, it's a one-on-one

29:11conversation. Here's how you're being perceived by the team. It goes a long way. And, you know,

29:16tough conversations are really tough to have, as you know. But it helps the person grow in their

29:21career. And that's the way a leader needs to think about it. If I've got to give tough news to

29:25somebody, I need to do it one-on-one. I shouldn't assign it to somebody else if it's my responsibility

29:30to give it. It shouldn't be passed on to somebody to give it to somebody. It needs to be direct

29:36in

29:36the feedback because the person can then talk about what, you know, what they felt about it.

29:40But it is important that we do that because if you... I'm a big believer of that person's on the

29:46team

29:46for a reason. Maybe you inherited the team and you've got to go through an assessment process,

29:51of yours that, you know, as everybody's sort of in the right roles, as we've talked about,

29:55because that is important. But the psychological safety piece, if people really feel that they're

30:01not valued, they won't participate. And you're never going to get the best of everybody. They're

30:07going to either contribute enough to be part of the team, but you're going to stay in that almost

30:13that storming, norming phase because you're never going to get to performing because they're

30:16holding back. They're not really delivering what they could. So, you know, I think that's an

30:21important part of a leader is, do you feel like you're a valuable member of this team? That does

30:26create psychological safety just on its own.

30:29It's co-author of the book, Built Right, W-R-I-G-H-T. Coach Bryant Wright was the one

30:35that,

30:35one of the very first things he talks about in his book, Built Right, is the importance of belonging

30:42and making people feel they belong. He goes, and everybody belongs. He goes, it's very,

30:47very important. And he, I've spent a lot of time with him and he talks about that exactly what

30:53you're saying is that if people think someone matters more than someone else, the people who

30:58feel they matter lean in more and everyone else backs off and they play it safe. And he said that

31:04when people, when he can create an environment where effort makes sense, then people will give more

31:09of it. They always will. And he talks, and Norman Wolf wrote a book, I think it's called

31:14The Living Organization. He talks about your whole, it goes, the businesses aren't machines.

31:20People aren't cogs. It's a living organization in that, that your job as a leader is to create an

31:26environment where people can do their best work. Absolutely. If you've created an environment where

31:31people can do their best work, psychological safety exists. It does. And you don't even have to

31:36use the term psychological safety. It's, it happens because people feel very valued. They

31:41feel aligned with the organization. They feel very much a part of it because as you, as we started this

31:46conversation, if it's breaking down people, process technology, it really is the people because

31:53they either don't feel valuable. They don't feel like they're being heard. They don't feel like

31:57they're a big part of that team and they feel disengaged.

31:59And, and if the team, like I'm really becoming a believer in the power of identity.

32:06Totally.

32:07When people, when you have the identity of a, of a company or a culture organization

32:12and they're winners, like we don't do this. The example, right, right. I was visiting with him

32:18last week. He used, he said, if I, let's say I like Milky Way candy bars and I see a

32:24Milky Way candy

32:25bar at the airport for $4. Cause we know airport crazy expensive for everything. Like, well, I'll

32:30just steal that. It's like, I'm not a thief. My identity is that I'm an honest person that was

32:37raised right. And that's not even an option for me. So that's not in my identity. So to do those

32:42wrong, bad, wrong and bad things is not even a possibility for me. And I look at organizations

32:48who have cultures that, Hey, this is what we are and this is who we are and this is what

32:52we do. And

32:53a lot of the bad behaviors aren't even options because when you feel like you belong in a group

32:59that has those high standards as part of their identity, then you adopt those. And you solve a

33:04whole bunch organizationally, you solve a whole bunch of problems before they ever occur.

33:08That's exactly right. And the reputation of that company really does stand alone. If you're

33:13not integral in what you're doing of like, you've treated a client badly or whatever the situation is,

33:19you've overcharged, whatever the situation, that behavior becomes part of the culture.

33:23And that's something you don't want. You want to be integral. You really want to create that

33:27environment, you know, where people are being honest around sort of who they are, what they do,

33:31because it's going to cascade to their home life.

33:35You know, that's, and I fortunately had the, the great sort of privilege of working for a company

33:40called Cox Enterprises here in Atlanta, Georgia. And that taught me the values of the family owned

33:46company. It's a huge media company, but they always taught us always do the right thing.

33:50Always be honest around it, you know, cause you may not have all the answers and it, and,

33:55and it really did cascade everything that I do in my life and my, in, in my work. And I'm

34:00also a big

34:01believer of Mason of having one-on-ones with the team as much as I can when I do spend

34:07time with

34:07them, because if you care about their family, they care about you, they do feel part of that

34:11belonging. They really do feel like it. And I've encouraged every leader I've ever worked with

34:15to do that. You know, you, we don't, we don't come to work as a machine. We come and we

34:20may

34:21leverage AI and we may put some good AI agents in place, but in the end, it's a person that's

34:28sort

34:28of helping to create that. So every person, we have an international team and we try to go visit

34:33that team whenever we can, because there's nothing better than if you can actually have a one-on-one

34:38because virtual is great, but having one-on-ones where you actually get to sit down with somebody

34:43in real time, I think the energy around that, and, you know, my title is chief energy officer.

34:49I try to create that. I try to make sure that people really feel valuable part of our team,

34:53because you wouldn't be here if, if, if you weren't. And that's important in every organization

34:57to really help an individual, because not all of us, we're not machines and we do have ups and

35:03downs that come in our life. We have deaths of family members or whatever's going on.

35:07And, and we sometimes, you know, may not feel like we're performing at the level that we do

35:12at different times, but we have to recognize as leaders that, you know, everybody's going to have

35:17situations. You just want them to be, when you look at that metric and you realize that something's

35:21not right in the numbers, talking about it, what's going on here? How can we do it? And it usually

35:26relates to a human behavior issue almost all the time. I can remember I was an army ROTC,

35:31army ROTC paid for my college. And I remember leadership training and I'm in my early,

35:36early twenties then. And they always taught us kind of what you were saying earlier that you want to

35:42praise in public and provide coaching or correction in private, just kind of like what you were saying

35:48earlier. And as far as belonging goes, how do I phrase that? Correction is care.

35:54Correction is care. Absolutely.

35:56And it's correction is care. And as long as it is delivered in a calm, it's, it's delivered calm,

36:03it's specific, and it's grounded in observation that when, when people feel they belong, then that

36:09correction feels purposeful. When they don't feel they belong, it's punitive.

36:15Yeah. And I stress enough how much I agree with what you were talking about, the belonging out of

36:22the gate. Like we are very congruent in our, you and I must have a similar past.

36:28Yes. Thank you. You know, cause I've, I also trained in the, in the air force and that, that was

36:33a

36:33great leadership around command and control. Cause we have to be in, we're in the military, right? I mean,

36:37there's a certain sort of protocol to, to, to, you know, execution. It's important. It's life and

36:42death. So that's, you know, it's different in organizations, but I think it really does ground

36:47itself into that ability. The one thing Mason, I've always observed is that people, if you have

36:53some information you need to share with a team member, that may not be positive. It's, you need

36:58to give them constructive criticism, right? You need to, cause you didn't understand, but it's the way

37:03you deliver it. But what I find is most people are nervous about actually delivering that because

37:08they're either, they're uncomfortable what the person is going to react to. But the more honest

37:13you are with the individual about this is what I observed. I love that word observe. This is what

37:17I've observed. I'm not sure if this is what's happening. It opens up a whole sort of understanding

37:23of what's happening. Cause that person may not have realized they were sort of autopilot or whatever it

37:27was, but it gets them into a different mindset, a different way of sort of thinking about it.

37:32I don't want to disappoint my boss or my leader. I need to think about this and I, you know,

37:38it kind of wakes people up. So I think the delivery, the care of that can be amazing transformation for

37:44an individual. And I loved your, when you talk about identity, it helps me shape my identity.

37:50Who am I and what's my purpose sort of in working this organization or my, my role.

37:54And one of the things I think is very, very important is not only to provide that correction as

38:00care, but to explain the business case. So they don't, they realize it's not personal.

38:04It's like, this is the outcome. This is how it's affecting our organization. And these are some

38:08things that are harmful, or these are opportunities we're missing that could be helpful. That's why

38:14we're having this conversation. So it's not about you being a bad person or doing a bad job. It's

38:18about, Hey, these are some adjustments we can make to get captured more of this opportunity or avoid

38:23more of these obstacles. And that's why we're having this conversation. It's not to pile on you or to

38:28put you down is to focus on the business aspect of it. And that's, and I care about you and

38:33I care

38:34about the business. And for me to not have this conversation is negligence. And that's not how I

38:40roll. Exactly. And it really is negligence on the leader part to avoid the conversation. And then the

38:45person doesn't really realize it. And they're not performing at the level other people see it.

38:50Yeah. You owe the team that one-on-one ability when you observe it and see it. And, you know,

38:58understanding. So I'm going to throw a little tough one at you. I love this different version

39:04of this question to people who have different life experience. So I'm going to throw this out

39:08one at you. What should a CEO do when one of the company's strongest performers is producing great

39:13results, but they're also creating fear, conflict, or dysfunction around them?

39:18That is a tough one. And believe it or not, Mason, I've had that sort of happen.

39:21Oh, sure. That's why I'm asking. All of us have been through there.

39:24And, you know, it's in many ways, it's a hero leader that's doing this, right? They sort of

39:31create that fear. And that's, and especially if you've created an organization where it is

39:38psychologically safe, everybody does. This person's really standing out as being somebody,

39:43either they're feared and they don't, nobody wants to work on the team or the ones that do

39:48kind of go into, you know, fearing, because maybe that's just part of their role.

39:52But I think it is incumbent on that CEO to have the conversation. Do you even,

39:57because sometimes it might be a blind spot and many times it is a blind spot. They don't realize

40:01they are doing that because they're in it, in, in the behavioral world, Mason,

40:07it's somebody that's usually very fast paced and competitive. So they've got those two very strong

40:12factors, we call them that sort of drive because they're trying to get to their goal. You know,

40:17I'm, I'm supposed to deliver this. So I'm going to do it at all costs of every human being sort

40:23of,

40:23because I want to get to that goal. And it's incumbent on the CEO to recognize that, you know,

40:28okay, I recognize your competition is sort of a very competitive side of it's coming out,

40:32but it's at the detriment of sort of what we've done creating this culture in the, in the company.

40:38And it's important. And quite honestly, I know this is a really tough one, but if they don't change

40:43their behavior, they may not be on the job. I know that's a tough one, especially if they're

40:48performing, because it's one of those things that the CEO has to evaluate is this team member

40:54creating such disruption in the company that it's cost. We're having temporary success in the

40:59results, but I'm going to lose a lot of good people that I really need on this team. I mean,

41:04it's a, it's a tough one. I'll give you one real life example. I knew of a printing company

41:09and the CEO was kind of in a pickle because the, his head of operations and his head of sales

41:16didn't like each other. And they were, it was almost like you leave me alone. I'll leave you

41:22alone. I'll do my job. I'm going to stay in my silo, mind your business. And that was the

41:28understanding. Exactly right. And the CEO was like, well, as long as both of you guys can perform

41:32your jobs well, I don't really care. You don't have to be buddies. Just you handle your work,

41:36you handle your work and everything's fine. Now here was, here was the aha moment.

41:40One of the top sales producers, it was sitting in lunch next to one of the people that works on

41:47the production team. And the sales rep was complaining. He's like, I wish we could do

41:50this particular type of printing because I would make a fortune in commissions because I get so much,

41:56so many questions for this type of printing. And we, I just have to keep referring it to XYZ

42:01printing company down the street, one of our competitors, because I know they can do it. And guess what the

42:06printing guy says, we can do that. Hindsight looking back, how much, and that was just one

42:15sales rep, how much money did that company lose? Because sales and production didn't communicate

42:21well enough to know what the cap sales didn't know the capabilities of production because there

42:26was no communication there. And not only did they miss out on all of those sales, but they strengthened

42:32their competitor by giving money that should be in their bank accounts to their competitors. Because

42:37what? Unnecessary conflict and nonsense. Yeah. And you know, what's interesting, Mason, is, you know,

42:43and when a new person comes on to a team, our recommendation is, especially in the DNA world,

42:47if they're using that, there's this report called a comparison report. And it does a style match

42:52between the two people. And it can be, and it's a numerical number. It could be, you know, 90,

42:57or it could be 30%. Well, guess what 30% looks like. We, and we use that, that 20 to

43:0480 scale

43:05that I talked about. So if you have somebody that's two standard deviations, meaning 20 points

43:10different between, so if, if you've got a score of 40 and the other person has a score of 50,

43:16that's three standard deviations different. There's going to be natural conflict between

43:20the two people. They don't even know why they have conflict, but they do. And usually it's in those

43:24areas that that's caused at the start of it. So when you actually, when you actually present this

43:30information to two people, it's all of a sudden, it's like, well, you're, and it kind of gets back

43:34to that anchor and creative that we talked about. Okay. Well, you're anchored. That's just the way

43:38you're wired. So how do I make sure that I'm sort of communicating with you? So we don't have these

43:43conflict sort of moments. It can make a huge difference in an organization. I've seen it many times,

43:48but what happens is people dig in their heels. So all of a sudden the team's working at their best

43:54at doing things. So they're referring things because they don't want to disappoint a client.

43:58Yet that was a huge opportunity. I'm sure if that CEO heard that conversation with that, with that

44:04team member, they'd be like, this can't happen. And you gotta, you can't do that. Not that everybody

44:10has to sit around and sing Kumbaya, but there is a way. And that's why understanding behavior can be

44:15one of the most important things an organization can learn. That living organization can, can gleam

44:21from it because we all show up with different sort of behavioral insights and strengths and struggles

44:26on the other side. So one last question for you. If there was only one piece of advice that you

44:31could

44:31give to people who are listening or watching today, what would be the most important piece of advice

44:35you could give and why? Curiosity. Curiosity is one of the biggest things that, you know, when you're

44:42seeing something not working well in your organization, I think it's important to have,

44:47be curious of what the issue is and not just jump to a conclusion that it's this person or this

44:53person,

44:53or this is the issue. Curiosity leads to asking questions that leads to what's really going on

44:59in the organization. I'd say that's probably the biggest one. I love that. So if people want to know

45:05more about you and the work you do, what are the best ways for them to connect?

45:08Best way, I'm on LinkedIn, Leon Morales, LinkedIn, Leon Morales, DNA. And then you can also find me

45:14at dnabehavior.com. And I'm always welcome. I love talking about behaviors. You know, I spend most of

45:21my career talking, really understanding sort of why people do certain things. And as I mentioned,

45:27the number, the one thing, and I know we talked about curiosity, but if you really know who you are,

45:31your identity, it can make probably help you no matter what sort of the role that you're in right

45:38now of where you want to be. You know, I think that people get kind of stuck sometimes recognizing

45:44I'm a certain strength, but, you know, having curiosity, really understanding who I am,

45:49all the assessment tools are good. You know, I think ours is best, but, you know, once you go

45:54through this process, really understanding who you are as an individual, it can really help you become

45:59sort of the leader or the person that you want to be in the technical field or the sales field

46:04or

46:04whatever field that you're looking to be in. Awesome. Thank you so much for joining us. I

46:08really appreciate your time. Thank you. It was a pleasure, Mason. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Are Your Employees in the Wrong Roles? The Hidden Cost of Poor Team Fit

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