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00:00Talking about the return for Conor Hellebuck, who the New Jersey Devils have traded for.
00:07That broke on Friday morning.
00:10I stormed in here while you guys were talking to Sal to, you know, let's go, we'll do it.
00:17Here we are.
00:17It was time to switch the topic.
00:20Or at least elevate the conversation to it's over.
00:23And I think that that might be the case for us today as well.
00:26I think it is time to turn the page on that whole saga, discussion, topic, dream, nightmare, whatever you thought
00:37it was.
00:37I think it's time to just, all right, it's over.
00:41He's on another team.
00:42It's done.
00:43There's no other sort of obvious goalie move right now.
00:47Just deal with it.
00:49I will say I've heard his name more this morning than I expected to.
00:52I did think we had broken up.
00:53I thought that story, I mean, I know it's going to hang there because it's going to be sort of
00:57the way that people complain about the general manager when they want to complain about the general manager to fall
01:03back on this event that didn't happen.
01:07Right.
01:07But right now that, I mean, is that the defining thing in Kekalainen's career right now with the Sabres is
01:13that Hellebuck's not here?
01:14Because if you think about it, that doesn't make a ton of sense.
01:16I think it probably is right now, though.
01:19I think that the, or maybe even on a less Hellebuck-focused level, it is getting really close and not
01:28getting it all the way there.
01:30And that is, I think, a point of sensitivity for people in this city because of the other GM in
01:37town.
01:37And that has been a year-over-year story with that guy.
01:41And so I think maybe people are a little hyper to get there.
01:46Well, the other thing, though, with Kekalainen is, okay, let's put this Hellebuck thing to bed.
01:52It's over.
01:52All right, everybody, we're not going to talk about that anymore.
01:56Oh, look, there's Alex Tuck.
01:57Like, now we've got to go back to that one.
01:59So that, I mean, it's been a rough week for the public discourse revolving around the general manager of the
02:07team.
02:07Right or wrong, fair or unfair, the conversations have been about, is this guy doing things the right way?
02:13And then as soon as we wrap the one up and say what you will, whether it did the right
02:17thing or the wrong thing,
02:18by not making that happen, then you get to Tuck.
02:22And you're reminded, oh, he's going to score their first goal.
02:25And he's going to score the overtime goal.
02:27And it's going to be, I mean, as the prophecy foretold, right?
02:31Like, that's just how that game was going to be.
02:34So to have that then thrown at you.
02:36Yeah, all right, we're done with this.
02:38Fine, let's move on.
02:40And I was just like, okay, what about this part?
02:41What about this part where this guy wanted more money than you wanted to give him,
02:45but was also an upstanding leader on the team and helped transform it into what it became.
02:49And now he's over there and he's on the other team and scores twice to beat you.
02:54So, yeah, it's a rough, like, oh, come on.
02:57It's a tough couple days.
02:59Yeah, it's just about cackling.
03:00I'm like, come on, man.
03:01Yeah.
03:01Really?
03:01Agreed.
03:02And so let's go back to that a little bit.
03:05I mentioned on Friday we were talking about this hellebuck thing,
03:09and I went back to the Tuck departure.
03:12So Alex Tuck, this whole negotiation, the last half of last season,
03:18it's a lot of, like, what is going to happen here?
03:20This guy is clearly very important for you.
03:24He's older and he's going to want a whole bunch of money and a whole bunch of term.
03:27How smart is that?
03:29How much are you willing to pay him?
03:31Can you survive losing him?
03:34That was a big, you know, that was the narrative of the offseason aside from hellebuck for me.
03:40And so I got to a place where I thought, you know what, this is an older player
03:49and you've got a core and a team that is set up to win for a long time that is
03:55not –
03:56it's a young core.
03:57It's a young, good team.
03:58And maybe this guy doesn't totally fit with that.
04:02So if you need to let this guy go to remain flexible and find another move,
04:08then I got to being okay with that.
04:12But my qualifier for being okay with that was that there would be a corresponding move.
04:18Okay.
04:19We now know that is not going to be Connor Hellebuck.
04:22The question I oppose, 803-0550, give us a call, please.
04:27Who is?
04:28What is the move now?
04:30Because it's going to be a move now.
04:31I would be stunned if we do not hear, even, like, in the next week,
04:36that we get Jarmo Kekalainen talking about – or, you know, reports of Jarmo Kekalainen
04:42talking to another team about a big player acquisition.
04:45And whether that's an Elias Pettersson, who has revived himself in Vancouver, who looks great.
04:51That's a No. 1 center-type guy.
04:53Whether that's Dylan Larkin in Detroit, who is still awaiting his trade request to be completed,
04:59as Connor Hellebuck's just was, whether that's another goalie that somehow works their way onto the market.
05:06Whatever that looks like, I think that there will be something else.
05:10So, I think today – Friday was about, all right, we're mad about Hellebuck.
05:15Why are we mad about Hellebuck?
05:16Let's talk about Hellebuck.
05:17I'm done with Hellebuck.
05:19What's next?
05:20What do you think is next for this team?
05:22Who is the next target?
05:25Who on the team needs to wake up and become a player?
05:29I think these are all the things now that move to the forefront as this sort of giant spotlight is
05:37taken away by Hellebuck being moved.
05:39All right, question No. 1 for you as you're coming up with the new name.
05:42And we talked about this on Friday.
05:43Like, yeah, by Monday, I'm going to have a name.
05:44I'm going to have something.
05:45I'm going to have a plan.
05:46Even if you don't have a specific name.
05:47How likely is that name to be a goaltender, or are we waiting on Alex Lyon to get back to
05:56get the rotation thing going and seeing if you can piece that together?
05:59It seems to me – this is my view – the reason goaltender was such a focus is that, oh,
06:06my God, that guy's available?
06:07Right.
06:08Happened.
06:08And now that, oh, my God, that guy's available happened and went away, now I'm just back to being a
06:14team with mediocre goaltending.
06:15And mediocre to me is middle of the pack.
06:18It's – sometimes you get a good game, sometimes you don't – it's not reliable, it's not consistent.
06:22You're never like, all right, all set tonight because we've got this guy in net.
06:27That doesn't exist right now for the team.
06:29But they can also have – some nights are better than others, but you're like most teams in the league
06:34in that fashion.
06:35And that means I'm not jumping up and down saying they have to find the next goaltender.
06:39It's not we're looking for a goaltender.
06:41It was – that one was attractive to this position.
06:44Now, to me, the biggest need is not necessarily between the pipes and is more, well, I'm thinking about Tuck
06:52and what Tuck was and what is not on the Sabres right now.
06:57So that's the direction I'm heading.
06:58I don't know if that's where you're going to.
06:59Yes, it is.
07:00I think that the goaltending conversation now shifts from, well, this guy's a clear upgrade to, do you have a
07:08big enough problem with UPL that a swap to a relatively equal level goaltender is worth doing?
07:14I think that's a conversation we can have.
07:16It's not the one that I'm thinking is foremost today.
07:20Today I'm thinking about exactly that.
07:23What was Tuck, what did you lose, and how do you replace it?
07:25All right, what was Tuck?
07:28Goal scorer, penalty killer, speed, heavy, veteran, leader.
07:33All right.
07:36You know, that might sound a little familiar for a fellow Atlantic division team.
07:41Dylan Larkin is a veteran.
07:44He was the captain of the Detroit Red Wings.
07:47He is fast.
07:49He can kill penalties, and he can score.
07:52That is a name that I would be thinking about right now if I was the Sabres.
07:56I think that that, for me, fits a lot of what is missing right now, what feels like it's missing
08:02right now from this team.
08:04That doesn't have to be the name.
08:05I think that Elias Pettersson is also a fun idea if you're going to get Vancouver to retain some of
08:10that salary.
08:11His number is very big, and he's had a bad couple of years.
08:14So you're hoping that you can get him for a cheap price on a deal that isn't full price.
08:19So that's an idea that really intrigues me.
08:24They're good on D.
08:25They don't need a defenseman.
08:27So I'm only thinking forward and goalie here, and the goalie market is, it was, Connor Hellebuck, and that's it.
08:34Right now, there's not another guy whose name I have heard out there at all.
08:38It's all been Hellebuck or bust.
08:40And so I think we need maybe some more time for names to surface there.
08:44If you're stuck in goaltender mode, you wind up like the teams that draft really high in the NFL, like,
08:50we need a quarterback.
08:51Well, that guy's not going to – it's not him.
08:53Like, well, we need a quarterback.
08:55Yeah, I know.
08:55But you're forcing an issue just because of a need.
08:59And if the player's not there, the player's not there.
09:01And right now, there's not a – and again, anything can change.
09:05But there's not an obvious solution.
09:09That's what was so nice about the Hellebuck part is it was just – whether it went great or not,
09:14it was a solidifying type of move.
09:18You put that guy back there, and you're like, all right, well, we're going to live and die with him.
09:21And it's not, does he need a night off?
09:24It wouldn't have been that.
09:25It would have been, that's your goaltender, and we move forward with everything else.
09:30And that just – it does so much for your psyche as a team to know, okay, we're good back
09:36there.
09:36And again, even if it's not perfect, there are far – you've always got previous performance to fall back on.
09:45You've got as recently as this calendar year winning a gold medal and, you know, being the best player on
09:52the ice in that game.
09:53So that's there.
09:54And if you had that, I think you could just stop thinking about it.
09:57And even if it doesn't work out great, it's like, well, what am I supposed to do?
10:00The floor was going to be higher with that.
10:02Yeah, what am I supposed to do?
10:03We did the thing.
10:04Right.
10:05And I was always hung up on the compensation for it.
10:07I wasn't positive that – and as it turns out, listening to Jeff Merrick right before this talking about, yeah,
10:12the Jets lost it.
10:13Like, that package wasn't great, and whatever else they were getting wasn't any better, and that's what they took.
10:18So what does that say?
10:19The Jets lose.
10:21So you didn't – you didn't make this move, and that to me takes goaltender – not off the table,
10:29but out of the front part of the conversation and gets me to where I've been for a long time,
10:35the second that I heard that Larkin wanted out of Detroit.
10:37Yeah, and that's the name for me that really stuck out all weekend long was Larkin, and because – I
10:47just laid it out.
10:48I mean, he's a veteran guy, been a leader in the league.
10:52He can kill penalties.
10:53He's a great power play player.
10:55His numbers are really good on the power play.
10:57I'm looking here – 176 points on the power play in his career in 815 games.
11:03It's not super easy to think of the – whether that's a good number or not, but I'm going to
11:07tell you it is.
11:08That's a high rate of goals – or a high rate of points on the power play through a career,
11:14and that's obviously a place that the Sabres have really struggled right now.
11:18And I think that he represents a lot of what they are missing or they lost in Tuck leaving in
11:29terms of age, of experience, of just –
11:37Presence?
11:38Yeah, there's a weight to that player that I don't know that anybody in that forward group right now holds.
11:45Even Taige Thompson, for me.
11:47Taige Thompson is a very effective goal scorer in the NHL.
11:51He is not necessarily, to me, a dominant sort of this-is-your-best-forward guy.
12:00He is a very, very, very good player.
12:03I do not think that he should be the No. 1 name you think of when you think of who's
12:09my – what's my forward group?
12:11Taige Thompson, great.
12:13That means you're going to score goals.
12:14And do not misunderstand me for saying that this is – that I don't think he's good enough or anything
12:20like that.
12:21All I'm saying is that I think that a player like Larkin, a player like Tuck, brought a little more
12:27weight in terms of presence as a veteran, time in the league as a name.
12:34This guy matters.
12:36This guy matters.
12:36And Taige Thompson matters.
12:38But Larkin was the captain of an original six franchise and has been a great player throughout his entire career.
12:46He's very highly thought of in USA Hockey.
12:50You talk to – I mean, Don Granato is a huge fan.
12:53And, like, there are a lot of reasons to think that Larkin not only brings positive attributes on the ice
13:00but off of it in a way that I think the Sabres could use right now as one of the
13:04younger teams in the league.
13:05I was excited to listen to you say all those things because I think all of them as well, but
13:09I couldn't put them in that – the Thompson part of it.
13:12The Thompson – thinking of him as the guy that scores a bunch of goals is great.
13:16Thinking of him as the leader of my forwards doesn't compute.
13:21It doesn't quite work, does it?
13:22And being a part of it is cool.
13:23And being my number two, number three –
13:25Two even.
13:26I'm fine.
13:26Right in there.
13:27But, yes, there is something that's absolutely missing.
13:31And, yeah, Larkin's a name that –
13:33For me, some of it is a 200-foot game.
13:37Like, there's some of that for Taige that, like, there's a moment every single night you watch him
13:41where if you're a real – like, if you're deeply entrenched in, like, if you're a hockey guy
13:47and you know, you know, these are the details that guys have to get right,
13:52there is something every night with him that's like, what are we doing here?
13:59And Larkin does not have that.
14:00Larkin is a 200-foot monster.
14:03He is a real, true centerman in the end.
14:08I don't know if he's a number one center anymore,
14:09but if you've got Taige to Larkin or if you've got, say, Kulik gets rolling or constant –
14:17or, you know, maybe Josh Norris shows a pulse for once and you get him going,
14:21like, that is a guy that can slot in in a very positive way for you.
14:25Where is Larkin, if I'm trying to draw a comp, how close am I?
14:31When I say acquiring Larkin would be like acquiring Chris Drury
14:35when the Sabres acquired Chris Drury.
14:37Where I didn't look at him as the scoring guy, but I looked at him as a leader guy,
14:42200-foot game, leadership I just said.
14:45But, like, all of that, like, who's representing me out there?
14:48That guy.
14:48And I feel like Larkin is in that category.
14:51You can tell me why I'm wrong, but that's the name that comes to mind
14:54with the player you're describing.
14:55With the traits that Tuck took away, Drury is the guy who comes to mind.
15:00And, of course, you know, that's a guy who's very well thought of in this town.
15:03That's right.
15:03I think that Larkin probably has a little bit more high-end skill.
15:10Like, he's got a little more game to him.
15:12But as far as the weight that you were talking about,
15:15like, that is a real player in this league that he talks, you listen, right?
15:21He goes that way, you follow.
15:23And that is kind of – the way you're describing it,
15:25that's kind of the way I'm hearing it.
15:27Absolutely.
15:27That I could not agree more with.
15:30Is that that is a player that represents the sort of professionalism
15:33and –
15:35Attitude, approach.
15:36He's just – he's a hockey player.
15:37He's as hockey as hockey comes, Larkin is.
15:40Yeah, yeah, yeah.
15:40He is just – through and through, Michigan, like, I'm a hockey guy.
15:45What do you want?
15:45I'm going to say the right stuff in the media.
15:48I'm never going to be that weird about it.
15:50I'm going to play hard, and I'm going to be physical when I need to be.
15:53He's even there playing after a trade demand.
15:55He's in there.
15:56And in the first game of the year, he's, like, standing up for his team, fighting guys.
16:00I'm like, that's what I mean.
16:02That is the kind of guy that Larkin is and that he represents.
16:06And I think that that player would do a lot of good for this Sabres team.
16:11Not only on the ice, but to my point, I think he would teach a lot of these young kids
16:16a lot about how to be the way that they should be.
16:19Have you thought about compensation?
16:20Because that's obviously going to be a thing.
16:22That is the difficult part with this because, once again, this Larkin situation is one that – this is a
16:30player that is demanded out.
16:31He has a no-move clause, so he controls his own destiny.
16:35He can veto trades.
16:37He can say no.
16:39And so that makes predicting value difficult because he could – and has, really.
16:45Like, originally, he was – I'll only go three places.
16:48I'll go Florida.
16:49I'll go Vegas.
16:50I'll go – I think it was Minnesota was the other one.
16:53Or Tampa, maybe.
16:55Whatever.
16:55There were three teams that were, like, the, oh, really, you'll go there?
16:59No crap teams.
17:00And he's since expanded the list.
17:03Buffalo has not made it yet.
17:06I wouldn't be surprised to hear about, like – I think they're on the brink of being on the list.
17:14I'd like them to be playing a little better to convince them of that.
17:18But I think that they are right around the area that he could be – all right, I'll try that
17:24out.
17:24And the other thing with Larkin, too, cap-wise, he's kind of in the spot where you wish Tuck would
17:30have been,
17:30and if Tuck had been there, you would have had him.
17:32He's at, like, an 8.7 cap hit through age 34, which is 20, 30, 31.
17:40And that's perfect.
17:41Yep, it's that four-year window when you're talking about this young core that theoretically is just going to improve
17:47as long as you do the right things around it.
17:49Like, that's when you're peaking.
17:50You're peaking two to three years from right now, and he's still – you're not already thinking about how to
17:55get rid of him
17:56and get out and what are you going to have to pay him.
17:58That stuff doesn't even happen until 2031, the end of the 2031 season.
18:03So it's like all the best parts about Tuck at the price you wanted to pay for Tuck.
18:09Right.
18:09At the term you wanted to pay for Tuck.
18:11At the age of Tuck.
18:12It's kind of all the same except available now.
18:16Now.
18:17Which sounds pretty good.
18:18It does sound really good.
18:19So we'll see.
18:19I think that's a name that I would keep an eye on here.
18:22Yes, let's take calls.
18:23I would love to hear from the people.
18:25Because we like to connect with fans, courtesy of Northtown Kia, Western New York's number one Kia dealer.
18:29Shop online at norhtownkia.com.
18:32Matt and Cheek Duwaga, you're on WGR.
18:34Hi.
18:34Hey, guys.
18:35Thanks for taking my call.
18:36Nice to call.
18:36Big fan of your show.
18:38So I know a lot of the talk has been about trying to bring in a roster player
18:43as like the big move that the Sabres could make to improve the team.
18:47But to me, there are so many holes in this roster right now
18:51that I think that there isn't really one player who could realistically fix everything.
18:57So to me, if I'm the Sabres, I think now is the time that you look to move on from
19:02Seth Appert.
19:03I think that there's really no justification for keeping him around
19:06considering how bad both the power play and penalty kill are.
19:10I would love if they could try and get someone like a Bruce Cassidy as like an assistant coach.
19:17But I know there's some kind of mess with Vegas and all that.
19:21But in terms of a roster player who I think that the Sabres could realistically get,
19:26I don't know his contract situation, but he's not like the flashiest player,
19:30so I don't see why he would have a no-trade clause.
19:32But in terms of local guy...
19:34You'd be surprised how many guys have no-trade clauses, Matt, but please continue.
19:40But veteran guy, he's actually a local guy who is great on the penalty kill.
19:45Alex Iofolo with Winnipeg.
19:47I think that's someone who the Sabres, you wouldn't have to give up a lot to get him
19:51just because he pretty much is a middle-six guy.
19:54But even if he does have a no-trade clause, he's from Eden or whatever,
19:58I think that's someone who could totally come in here and immediately, at the very least,
20:04fix the penalty kill.
20:06But I'm curious both on if you think this is the time to fire Appert and also the Alex Iofolo
20:10idea.
20:11So I'll hang up and listen.
20:12Yeah, I like Iofolo.
20:14That's a guy that has been connected to the Sabres for quite some time.
20:18I mean, it's always easy to connect a local guy with his hometown team.
20:22He's on a three-year deal right now at $3.6 million.
20:26It's a very manageable cap hit.
20:29I don't know how much room they have for a player like this without moving one out already.
20:37I think that they've got a number of players playing in the bottom six that already shouldn't be.
20:45And I don't know if adding another one of those guys is what's going to help you out right now.
20:51I think that the penalty kill, that's a lot of you-need-saves.
20:56And that can be fixed fast by a couple of stops from a goaltender.
21:02And I think that there's some minor tweaks they can make to that kill structure that will help them out.
21:08They're just leaving guys open in front far too easily.
21:10And that's something that you should be able to solve.
21:13On Appert, this is—we talk about Lucanen being a guy that gets an unnecessary amount of flack
21:21as related to his actual effect on the Sabres winning games.
21:26And Appert might give him a run for his money in that way.
21:29The power play is not on Appert.
21:33Lindy Ruff decides what kind of power play they run and how they run it.
21:37Appert is the guy that's probably doing the teach tape and he's doing the drawing up the plays.
21:43But the reality of that unit is that it falls on Ruff's shoulders and, really, the players.
21:51Of course, Jarmo said this on Tuesday, last Tuesday, with Sneaky Joe in the morning.
21:57Power plays are not so differently coached that a coach has that big of an impact on it
22:03as opposed to the players that are running the system.
22:06The players on the ice need to pass to the open guy or not give the puck away
22:12or find a way to get into the zone without giving it right back to the other team.
22:17There's a lot of that that falls on coaching, but just as much of it that falls on players.
22:22And the other thing that I like to bring up about Appert, he is, to my knowledge,
22:28a big part of why their defensemen play the way they play.
22:31He ran that style of offensive, just go on D with the USA program to great results.
22:41And I think that when he came in here and got with the big club,
22:45he talked to Lindy and said, this is a thing I think we should do.
22:48We've got players that can do it, and I think it's worked,
22:51and I think that he deserves a lot of credit for how they play on D right now.
22:55Are you saying River Hockey is Seth Appert?
22:56A little bit.
22:57Okay, so if you like River Hockey, you like Seth Appert?
23:00Probably.
23:01Okay.
23:02As mad as you are going to be at him about the power play, which is not just on him,
23:05he is responsible also, I think, not solely but largely,
23:10for the thing that we all love about them.
23:12Without even knowing that or thinking about that, to me,
23:16I'm always hesitant when somebody says, I've been watching on television,
23:21and I've determined that the problem is that assistant coach.
23:23But you don't know why he's here or why Lindy Ruff wants him as his assistant
23:29or how he even landed there.
23:30And I'm not specifically talking about just this, but in general,
23:35when you decide the problem is the offensive coordinator for this football team
23:39or the defensive coordinator or the special teams or whatever it is,
23:44there's a reason.
23:45Like, if you like most of the other stuff and you talk to the people who know
23:47exactly what's going on, you would find out that your reason isn't necessarily
23:52applicable in the situation.
23:54Like, they're not scoring on the power play, so fire the power play, coach.
23:57Coach, well, I don't want to just repeat everything I want to say,
24:03but, like, what do you think he's going to do differently when you bring it?
24:09It's not like, and maybe it's different than what I just said with an offensive.
24:13If you bring in an offensive coordinator that's got a radically different idea
24:17of how to win football, how to play football, you might change things.
24:21You might get a different approach and a different vibe.
24:24With all of this, I mean, keep it in.
24:29Don't lose.
24:30Get it low.
24:31Get that shot.
24:32Shoot.
24:33Don't pass up on that opportunity.
24:35Find the open man.
24:36What do you need?
24:37Right.
24:38I mean, there's a part of me that thinks I could coach the power play.
24:41Yeah.
24:42I shouldn't.
24:43I don't want to.
24:44I'm not arguing for it.
24:45But I'm just saying, he's absolutely qualified to be one of the people on the bench,
24:49and because you think that it's his fault that they don't score on the power play
24:53or his fault that they don't score on the penalty kill.
24:55It's just worth thinking about whether that's a reasonable position to take.
24:58That's all.
24:59Quick timeout.
25:01It is middays with Brad, Tim, and Owen,
25:04and it is driven by Northtown Automotive on WGR.